I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.

[jabcat]

While researching something, I came across this (what I thought to be) interesting opinion.  From the 'Ancient Hebrew Research Center' - http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/12_goodbad.html

"Very few sermons in our Western synagogues and churches would include the passage "I [God] form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil, I am the LORD who does all of these" (Isaiah 45:7) as our Western mind sees these two forces as opposing opposites while the Eastern mind sees them both as equals and necessary for perfect balance. In the Western mind, God is only good and therefore unable to create evil. The Eastern mind sees God as a perfect balance of all things including good (tov in Hebrew) and evil (ra in Hebrew).

It should be noted that the English word "evil" has no Ancient Hebrew equivelant, while most English translations will use the word "evil" it is usually the Hebrew word "ra" which simply means "bad". In the Ancient Hebrew mind there is no such thing as an "evil" person or thing. To understand the words "good" and "bad" from a more Hebraic understanding these words should be understood as "functional" and "dysfunctional". God is both functional (such as seen in the Creation story of Genesis one) as well as dysfunctional (such as the destruction of the flood).

Our western mind classifies all things in two categories, either it is "good" or it is "bad". One is to be sought, cherished and protected, the other is to be rejected, spurned and discarded. Let us take light and darkness as an example. We see light as good and darkness as bad. The idea of light brings to mind such things as God, truth and love. Darkness on the other hand invokes Satan, lies and hate. To the Orientals, including the Hebrews, both are equally necessary as one cannot exist without the other. In the Bible God is seen as a God of light as well as darkness "And the people stood at a distance and Moses approached the heavy darkness where God was." (Exodus 20:21). If you stare at the sun, which is pure light, what happens? You become blind. If you are standing in a sealed room with no light, what happens? You are again blind. Therefore, both light and darkness are bad and yet, both are good. In order to see we must block out some of the light as well as some of the darkness.

The two poles of a magnet are north and south. These two poles create balance, they are not morally good or bad, but necessary ingredients of physics that compliment each other. Good and bad are more like the north and south poles of a magnet than our Western conception of good and bad.

Can good exist without the bad? Absolutely not, how could you judge something to be good if you cannot compare it to something bad? The same is true for all other concepts. Cold cannot exist without heat, or short without tall, far without near, or large without small. Our western mind usually ignores these extremes and seeks to always find the "good" or the "bad". The Eastern mind is continually seeking both the "good" and the "bad" in order to find the balance between the two. Even Solomon recognized this when he said "Do not be overly righteous" (Ecclesiastes 7:16).

Throughout the scriptures this search for balance is found, yet ignored by Westerners who do not understand the significance of balance." - AHRC

Oh God, You are my God
and I will ever praise You...

I will seek You in the morning
I will learn to walk in Your ways
and STEP BY STEP You'll lead me
and I will follow You all of my days

[peacemaker]

Can good exist without the bad? Absolutely not ...

Ahhh! The heat-cold argument of good and evil, so just how cold is "cold?"

Absolute zero, is -273.15 degrees Celsius; approximately the temperature at which all molecules stop moving entirely. But what about 20 billionths of a degree above absolute zero?

Maybe a bit, warmer, you think? Having movement, perhaps?

How dark is dark? Can dark be made to be darker? Or lighter?
 
Cold is present when there is absolutely no heat.
Darkness is present when there is absolutely no light.

And Death is the absence of life; whether it is physical or spiritual.

Are we only to consider the premise of duality, that of interchanging; good and evil?

"Let us not be polarized and magnetized within two conflicting or contrasting positions."

A lesser degree of that which IS? (IMO)

peacemaker

[jabcat]

Are we only to consider the premise of duality, that of interchanging; good and evil?

"Let us not be polarized and magnetized within two conflicting or contrasting positions."

The whole premise as I understand it, is the working of all things toward balance.  The working of ALL things for our good.  I just believe we often try really hard to make what God says fit what I am only temporarily capable of thinking and understanding.  He's just a whole lot bigger than that, and He'll show us more as He brings our wills into His...step by step  .

[sparrow]

While researching something, I came across this (what I thought to be) interesting opinion.  From the 'Ancient Hebrew Research Center' - http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/12_goodbad.html

"Very few sermons in our Western synagogues and churches would include the passage "I [God] form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil, I am the LORD who does all of these" (Isaiah 45:7) as our Western mind sees these two forces as opposing opposites while the Eastern mind sees them both as equals and necessary for perfect balance. In the Western mind, God is only good and therefore unable to create evil. The Eastern mind sees God as a perfect balance of all things including good (tov in Hebrew) and evil (ra in Hebrew).

It should be noted that the English word "evil" has no Ancient Hebrew equivelant, while most English translations will use the word "evil" it is usually the Hebrew word "ra" which simply means "bad". In the Ancient Hebrew mind there is no such thing as an "evil" person or thing. To understand the words "good" and "bad" from a more Hebraic understanding these words should be understood as "functional" and "dysfunctional". God is both functional (such as seen in the Creation story of Genesis one) as well as dysfunctional (such as the destruction of the flood).

Our western mind classifies all things in two categories, either it is "good" or it is "bad". One is to be sought, cherished and protected, the other is to be rejected, spurned and discarded. Let us take light and darkness as an example. We see light as good and darkness as bad. The idea of light brings to mind such things as God, truth and love. Darkness on the other hand invokes Satan, lies and hate. To the Orientals, including the Hebrews, both are equally necessary as one cannot exist without the other. In the Bible God is seen as a God of light as well as darkness "And the people stood at a distance and Moses approached the heavy darkness where God was." (Exodus 20:21). If you stare at the sun, which is pure light, what happens? You become blind. If you are standing in a sealed room with no light, what happens? You are again blind. Therefore, both light and darkness are bad and yet, both are good. In order to see we must block out some of the light as well as some of the darkness.

The two poles of a magnet are north and south. These two poles create balance, they are not morally good or bad, but necessary ingredients of physics that compliment each other. Good and bad are more like the north and south poles of a magnet than our Western conception of good and bad.

Can good exist without the bad? Absolutely not, how could you judge something to be good if you cannot compare it to something bad? The same is true for all other concepts. Cold cannot exist without heat, or short without tall, far without near, or large without small. Our western mind usually ignores these extremes and seeks to always find the "good" or the "bad". The Eastern mind is continually seeking both the "good" and the "bad" in order to find the balance between the two. Even Solomon recognized this when he said "Do not be overly righteous" (Ecclesiastes 7:16).

Throughout the scriptures this search for balance is found, yet ignored by Westerners who do not understand the significance of balance." - AHRC

Oh God, You are my God
and I will ever praise You...

I will seek You in the morning
I will learn to walk in Your ways
and STEP BY STEP You'll lead me
and I will follow You all of my days

The lessons can last forever...
but the "bad" does not last forever.

This is the same as someone tried to argue before about there is no evil, it's all in our minds, or how we perceive it. Evil isn't evil, it just is. Just as good is. It's neutral. Yeah, right. Tell that to someone who was just raped.

Is rape going to go on forever? So we'll ALWAYS know the difference between violent, selfish love and selfless tender love?

 

There is no evil in God.
God is love.

What rushes in when you turn off a light? darkness.
The light itself isn't darkness.

[jabcat]

Trying to understand dear Sparrow, and I really think I'm missing something, not quite tracking.  Are you saying the scripture would then read "I make peace and peace only;  I did not create evil"?  Or something else.  Please help me better understand the specific point of your last post.  Absorbing lots of info today (I'm at work) and probably seeing a little dimly right now.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I like that site James, I corresponded in e-mail with them about the term olam and that's where I learned that the translations that use the word everlasting for olam are imposing the greek abstract terms and they say it is incorrect.

But that's where I also started seeing a different view of aionios if everlasting is its "abstract" usage.   Was very informative.


I think this article says a lot of what has been said.   There are things that MUST be and Gods character or power has nothing to do with it, it is how it is.


That's my take on it anyway.  

[jabcat]

I only discovered it tonight.  I'll have to look at it more.  I've done enough arm-wrestling for one night  , I'm getting tired.  But I'll ask if you'd please help me explain your view on this piece; if it's just how it is, how would you say it came to be that way, IYO?  I just think, maybe wrongly, I don't know, that God's character and power has SOMETHING to do with everything, to some degree or another.  That He's not what we might call to blame, but if not responsible, then at least connected somehow.   I just can't (as you said earlier) fathom or explain it all.

And I just wanted to say...you're crazy for wanting to be strapped on top of a rocket  .  I do likes my 2 foots on the ground.

[sparrow]

Trying to understand dear Sparrow, and I really think I'm missing something, not quite tracking.  Are you saying the scripture would then read "I make peace and peace only;  I did not create evil"?  Or something else.  Please help me better understand the specific point of your last post.  Absorbing lots of info today (I'm at work) and probably seeing a little dimly right now.

I see this life as a schoolyard... contrasts in love and non-love.
But once the lesson is learned... there will be no more non-love.
That's basically what I'm saying.

To me, evil = non-love.
God IS love.
So he cannot NOT be love.

When it says He creates evil...
It is only created in the same sense that darkness is "created" when the light is turned OFF in a room.
In other words, God doesn't force a man to rape and murder a child.
The man rapes and murders the child because he has turned AWAY from love.
all evil (actions of non-love) are all showing us something.
When we do not LOVE...the consequences, what happens, the result.
We are here to learn.
We will absolutely CLING to God forever, when this whole history of this earthly life has played out.
This whole history, every action, every life, is a thread in the tapestry.
The tapestry of life that will serve to show us the effects, trickling down in every way, shape and form the results of love... and the results of non-love. From the most miniscule of things to the largest things. From the most evil to the most loving.

God IS LOVE.
When we turn from LOVE, we are in darkness, and we do dark (non-loving) things.
Everything will be brought to light.
But it is to teach us.

Do you know what I mean?
Perhaps the confusion is that I am misunderstanding what the guy is talking about?
perhaps my response doesn't line up with what he is talking about?

I still do not believe that God CREATES evil or IS evil in ANY way, shape or form.

We EXPERIENCE non-love when we choose to turn away from Love.

We are here to learn the power of love.
and the futility of non-love.

[peacemaker]

Are we only to consider the premise of duality, that of interchanging; good and evil?

"Let us not be polarized and magnetized within two conflicting or contrasting positions."

The whole premise as I understand it, is the working of all things toward balance.  The working of ALL things for our good.  I just believe we often try really hard to make what God says fit what I am only temporarily capable of thinking and understanding.  He's just a whole lot bigger than that, and He'll show us more as He brings our wills into His...step by step  .

We are gradually changing from the old dualistic ways of thinking to a new paradigm which transcends the differences between light/darkness, good/evil, and the "us and them" mentality. This new paradigm pierces the veil of judgment deep within us, as we are being transformed into the newness of this life.

However, ours is not the task of fixing the entire world all at once, but of stretching out to mend the part of the world that is within our reach:

"What is mine, is yours, if you have need of it."

His Love is not limited to single-linear cause and effect outcomes. And I believe that sin/redemption was not God's highest purpose for His "image" bearers.

As I have mentioned before:

"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestine to holiness."

My love to each, and everyone on this forum. And to my neighbors, whoever, they may be.

peacemaker

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi James,

As much as I think I know, I also understand that I have no full comprehension of  God, I do not think that limits us in understanding God is not a murderer.

It does not limit our understanding that Gods character does not have an eternal place to exist where he offers no hope.

When I say that the way things are in regards to evil that has nothing to do with Gods power is that our journey is inherant to God. 

God is,  Gods existance is how it is, there is nothing inherant to his existance that we can relate to his character or power as being a part of him coming into existance.   He just is.


It is indeed the western thinking and the view Christianity has perverted that we are actually apart from God and he operates outside of our realm.

It is what we are experiencing now in terms of what we "call" evil that is a process that is just God expanding.  It is as real and anything, and it must be because it is how it is.

Gods written word is to help us along the way to find peace in what must be.

It has never been about God as a man making a plan,  it is God himself alive and growing and we are inherantly God.


I admit I may be terrible at wording all of this and perhaps I over think it to the point that my eyes bulge, but through that I understood the evil of ET, so I will continue to cause aneurysms even if only in myself as I think this through.   

[jabcat]

Sparrow, PM, Paul - I'll continue to think on these things.  I don't have the complete simple answers  .  In the meantime, no aneurysms please  .

[sparrow]

Sparrow, PM, Paul - I'll continue to think on these things.  I don't have the complete simple answers  .  In the meantime, no aneurysms please  .

yeah.. y'know...
I know this is a hot topic for me.
Only because of past discussions/experiences with some other folks from years ago (and actually to this day). So, I will just say I might be a little overly sensitive when it comes to this.
Sort of has to do with some weirdo new-age type stuff that was just, I don't know man..
it's like it was almost dissolving God into this nothingness, non-meaning, non-personal...
just blob of.... well... blob of...ICK.

So, sometimes I admit.. the hairs on my neck stand up if I sense anything remotely seeming to sound like that stuff.  I may have completely misunderstood what this guy is talking about and what you all are talking about, as well. So, I apologize if I threw the discussion off track at all.  Don't mind me.    

 

thank you for your patience.

[jabcat]

 

I think he's saying God is very involved, that we just don't usually understand His ways.  That's really what I believe too, that although I really can't understand it real well, and explain it even worse, that I do have to believe He does just what He says;  "I make peace, and create evil".  I'm just not completely sure all what that means. 

[sparrow]

Yeah... in a sense the "be ye as little children" comes to mind.. y'know..

And when it comes to faith (and our lack of it), the Bible admonishes us to have child-like faith — the kind that trusts completely without ifs and buts.

 

I still kind of see it as it being created BECAUSE He IS love...
so what is not LOVE is NOT... HIS nature...
so non-love is created in THAT way.
Different ways of things being "created"
some things are "created" by default.
Maybe that's what it means...


LOVE makes peace.
non-love creates evil.

well...
ok, gotta stop thinking about this for awhile..

[Seth]

When it says He creates evil...
It is only created in the same sense that darkness is "created" when the light is turned OFF in a room.
In other words, God doesn't force a man to rape and murder a child.
The man rapes and murders the child because he has turned AWAY from love.
all evil (actions of non-love) are all showing us something.
When we do not LOVE...the consequences, what happens, the result.

Sparrow, my thoughts on this topic of God "creating" or "forming" evil not that he FORCES man to do anything. I actually don't think God NEEDS to force man to do what he already wants to do: sin, sin, sin.

It is so much worth noting, that Romans 7 establishes that what causes people to sin is their sin generating flesh, and being in subjection to it. Under that condition, why would God need to force anyone to do evil, when the motions of sin are already in place? And this to the point where even when a man in the flesh WANTS to do good, he cannot do it! Have you ever been wronged by someone to the point where you want to hate them? Well, when you remember that it is not them wronging you but the sin they are slaves to, perspectives change, because then you can feel sorrow for the person, rather than seeing them as an object for revenge.

My point in saying all this is that I agree, God does not force anyone to sin. But he did create the flesh, and the flesh by default shoots WIDE of the mark of the Spirit. And everyone is born into the flesh which automatically lusts against the Spirit. When I think about God creating evil, I think about Christ's persecution. If I saw that without knowledge of God's will and power concerning His Son's fate, would I think it to be a work of Satan, a innocent man murdered in the worst way, or according to God's hand?

[peacemaker]

"In the hands of humanity, He exposed their nakedness; revealing his Love."

peacemaker

[sparrow]

hmmm. Seth, your post just made something spring to mind.

Perhaps... "I create evil.."
Those words are nothing more than God taking responsibility FOR the evil that abounds in carnal man. since GOD is the one who subjected us to this carnal flesh, this corruption, this FUTILITY..He is taking RESPONSIBILITY for our evil that WE (in our carnal flesh state) commit.
(since He subjected us to this in the first place, so we would learn.... He is saying, *I* create evil. Taking it on Himself, just as He took our sins on HIS shoulders.)

wow.


ok, not sure if I worded that correctly, but I had to post because I'm still here thinking...
hmmm...

[WhiteWings]

Not a complete answer. Just some thoughts to start with.

I think the first key is to figure out the correct translation.
Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Form and make: Making something from already existing materials.
Create: Make something out of nothing.

If God is only good then the 'material' is readily availble within Himself. And the availble evil has to be made from none existing materials.
That said (ancient) Hebrew scholars seem to view darkness as the absense of light. So darkness is missing the material called light.
Then if light=love and dark=evil.
Then the 'forming evil' simply means God stops 'injecting light'.
That would mean creating evil is a passive action and cretaing love a active action.
It's even reflected in the universe. A light (sun, stars) consumes massive amounts of energy to shine. When the energy(love/light) is depleted there is darkness (=evil)

I'm already way of track here so lets wrap this up with saying that creating evil perhaps just means cutting of the energy supply?
 

[sparrow]

Not a complete answer. Just some thoughts to start with.

I think the first key is to figure out the correct translation.
Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Form and make: Making something from already existing materials.
Create: Make something out of nothing.

If God is only good then the 'material' is readily availble within Himself. And the availble evil has to be made from none existing materials.
That said (ancient) Hebrew scholars seem to view darkness as the absense of light. So darkness is missing the material called light.
Then if light=love and dark=evil.
Then the 'forming evil' simply means God stops 'injecting light'.
That would mean creating evil is a passive action and cretaing love a active action.
It's even reflected in the universe. A light (sun, stars) consumes massive amounts of energy to shine. When the energy(love/light) is depleted there is darkness (=evil)

I'm already way of track here so lets wrap this up with saying that creating evil perhaps just means cutting of the energy supply?
 

Hey! I'm pretty sure we are seeing it the same way.

[jabcat]

Who created what happens (or even the conditions for what happens) when the energy supply is cut off? 

[WhiteWings]

Nothing is created when the energy supply is cut off.
Look at it this way.
An (unscriptual) example: We all had some accident and are in great pain (=evil) God injects us daily with a painkiller (=good).
Then God stops injecting and the pain returns.
So pain/evil is 'created' by doing nothing.
Light/painless requires action, dark/pain requires doing nothing. Plus God can change the dosis of the painkiller.

[jabcat]

WW, I think your "form and create" definitions are worth more consideration.  Did you make those up, or are they really accurate definitions?     Seriously, are they thoughts/suppositions/possibilities, or for real bases of fact upon which we can build?

I understand what you're saying.  But how did the conditions occur/come into being in which we would have the pain, experience it, feel it when we "injured ourself"?   How did we have the accident?  Who set it up that accidents could occur, and when they did, pain would be felt?  My bottom line question...can anything EVER exist in any way, shape, form, without its origin (or even the conditions to develop) within which it occured, without God somehow being connected to it...some how?  In essence, can anything really be "it just is" without God having created the conditions for "it just is" to exist in the first place?

[WhiteWings]

WW, I think your "form and create" definitions are worth more consideration.  Did you make those up, or are they really accurate definitions?     Seriously, are they thoughts/suppositions/possibilities, or for real bases of fact upon which we can build?

Ofcourse all my examples are purely my thoughts.
But if you look at the Hebrew words only the "creating evil" part has a root word the Hebrew bara. To my best knowledge Bara is the only Hebrew word that means  'creating out of nothing'. And it's commonly accepted among Jewish scholars.
So the created out of something/nothing is from Jewish scholars.
Dark being the absense of light is commonly accepted too I think? Same as dark=sin=death...
All other stuff is just me extrapolating.

I understand what you're saying.  But how did the conditions occur/come into being in which we would have the pain, experience it, feel it when we "injured ourself"?   How did we have the accident?  Who set it up that accidents could occur, and when they did, pain would be felt?  My bottom line question...can anything EVER exist in any way, shape, form, without its origin (or even the conditions to develop) within which it occured, without God somehow being connected to it...some how?

That's a whole different topic I think...
Did Eve really get sick/in pain (start sinning) or was she created terminally ill? They got their daily dose of painkiller, but the day before 'the fruit incident' God lowered the dose of medicine.
Do not ask for verses proving that

[WhiteWings]

About "Bara" - creating out of nothing
Read and decide for yourself.....

http://users.hal-pc.org/~tom/creationexnihilo.htm
http://lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2009/01/07/baracreate-in-ancient-israel-what-do-the-bible-and-the-scholars-say/
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/did-god-create-or-make
http://www.christianleadershipcenter.org/Bara.htm
http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=615
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=bara%20create%20out%20of%20nothing&num=100

So like always not all agree...

[Molly]

ww, so the idea is that he creates something out of nothing--evil.

And then gives it form and light--good?

So evil is just the first and most primitive step in the creation process?

That could make sense from the first 4 verses of genesis.


1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

 4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

--Gen 1