Author Topic: I guess it comes down to this.  (Read 9150 times)

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Offline Doc

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #100 on: August 20, 2009, 09:36:08 AM »
zeek,

right. im asking about all the others who die unbelievers. show me where God grants them repentance and forgiveness of sin after they die.

Show us where He specifically doesn't. If you can't, then the most you can say is that you're making an argument from silence/ ignorance (a logical fallacy). Just because something is not stated in a specific way doesn't mean that the opposite is automatically true. If I were to say; if you don't hurry up, you will not get to the bank before it closes, would you automatically assume that I meant you would never get to the bank before it closed? You are automatically assuming, without contextual supporting data, that because Jesus told a certain specific group of people under specific circumstances that if they did not do a certain thing that they would die in their sins; that this not only applies in the same way to everyone, everywhere and for all time, but also that they will always remain in that state. Yet elsewhere, believers are told they were once dead in sins and trespasses. So clearly, being dead in your sins is a state that can occur regardless of one's state of physical life, and (what's more) is a state that is also clearly reversible.

The simple fact is that there isn't a verse that states what you're asking for precisely the way you do, partly because the way you state it is flawed anyway. As many have pointed out, forgiveness of sin has already occurred. Repentance is simply a change of mind. There are many verses that point to the gist of what we're saying quite clearly. Many of these have been given to you here and elsewhere, but you choose to ignore them and/ or their implications and harp on the same pointless thing over and over. The only one giving any "runaround" here is you, Aaron (a.k.a. CoG/lee), or whatever you will call yourself next after your current ISP is also banned.

 
There is a definition of insanity that is stated: Doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result. Good luck with that.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

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Offline peacemaker

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #101 on: August 20, 2009, 09:47:01 AM »
To Whom It May Concern: (Lee100.cog)

If we confound worldly with righteous sorrow, taking a Pelagic (pertaining to the open sea) view of human nature, we may indeed ascribe true repentance to the unaided workings of the natural heart.

"True repentance will voice itself to Him for sin not judged, cannot abide the blaze of His Glory."

You will find the answer in the whole of His Word, not in a selected verse to accommodate your own preconceived thoughts of limited atonement and hell. A total disregard for the Reconciliation of All things. However, go ahead and maintain that condescending superiority, if you prefer. But consider that no liar shall have the power to instruct or teach that of any another.

"Ever learning but unable to come to the truth."

Although, the day is coming when you will awake from sleep, and will also be taught what is right/true with the rest of humanity.

HIS WORD is SPIRIT, not FLESHLY thinking.

peacemaker

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #102 on: August 20, 2009, 10:52:07 AM »
ron,

i thought so. i can not for the life of me find scripture that supports God granting repentance and forgiveness of sin to poeple after they die. but maybe someone on this forum can show us.
Let me start with saying I can give you a verse that plainly states that.
Now you show me a verse that after death there is no way to repent. Or that repenting has become useless after death.
I far from understand everything written in the Bible. So I have to find a way to learn the most important things first.
The framework. The foundation. Working from outlines toward details.
You may or may not have noticed the verses in my signature. I quoted them below. They are my favorite verses. And for me they are the framework to read/understand the Bible. Of course we can start a debate on the meaning of the words in the verses. Fine. But that also means every word you quote will de reviewed the same way.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  .... God our Saviour;  Who will have all men to be saved....
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....

The way I see the three verses is that they reinforce eachother. Especially Romans 4:5 is extremely powerful.
"declares" => we are not asked for any input/work. It is declared.
"ungodly" => I guess that is a good word for sinner/unconverted/etc
"righteous" => the ticket to heaven so to speak.

I think/hope we can agree many/most people don't die as good Christians. I even think the standard ET number of only 5% are true Christians may be correct.
So now it looks God is a complete failure. He spoke/inspired the 3 quoted verses with great certainty but it has a fail rate of 95%. Unless..... death is not the end of the conversion process.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #103 on: August 20, 2009, 11:00:00 AM »
ron,

isnt that what the gospel is all about? when the sinner hears it, he either believes or he don't. the ones who do respond to the gospel are let out of prison and are saved. right? repentance in regards to salvation is changing of ones mind that results in a change of action.

Who did put the sinner in prison? -> disobedience to God is sin.
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

Who sets the prisoner free? -> Father draws/drags the sinner out of prison.
John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So basicly we do not just respond. We are forced to respond...
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #104 on: August 20, 2009, 11:06:15 AM »
lookingup,

Is there ANY scripture that says He bestows this gift upon you in this life only?

right, that is why I'm asking you to give chapter and verse in the bible where God grants repentance and faith after someone dies an unbeliever.

Be a man and answer a direct question.
Where is the verse that states there is NO possibility of repentance after death?
If both sides can't answer the questions perhaps it just means the verse (pro and con) do not exist.
So we have to look for indirect proof.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #105 on: August 20, 2009, 11:27:31 AM »
the answer to your question lies in the chapter and verse in the bible where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after somenone die an unbeliever
This is starting to get trollish.


Quote
to support 1Tim 2:4. do you not understand this? this is the hole in UR if you cannot show me chapter and verse where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever.
It's not a hole in UR. It's you that doesn't accept a verse. If God tells you something do you reply with "prove it to me with another verse!" Or do you answer "Can you please explain the concept with another verse so I can understand."
The point is that there are no contradictions in the Bible. If you find one a translation error slipped in or you just don't understand.

It's getting more and more clear to me you (and COG) have very little understanding or urge to understand the Bible.
Sometimes a verse is very hard to understand. It can be read in different ways. Surely you can keep askinfg the same question over and over because you feel secure in your old knowledge. But don't expect any progress.
At a certain point people start to ignore your question. Surely for you it means you debunked UR. But did you really debunk UR or just showed your inability to process new information?
Just as an example not in the Bible. Jesus rode on an animal. But from the verses in Luke you can't figure out it was a horse, mule or elephant. Then you can keep staring at that verse for 10 years and still don't have the answer. Another more productive way is to look for similar verses in Mark. And if Mark shows it was a mule you found your answer regarding the problem in Luke.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #106 on: August 20, 2009, 11:33:22 AM »
zeek,

right. im asking about all the others who die unbelievers. show me where God grants them repentance and forgiveness of sin after they die. so dizzy from all this runaround. goodnight.

molly, you must believe in Jesus before you die to have that applied my friend. read john 6:47.

John 6:47   'Verily, verily, I say to you, He who is believing in me, hath life age-during;
Yes you have it aplied before death.
But that only applies to the age.
It doesn't state it can or can not be applied after that age.
Read a verse for what it says. Don't add extra words/conclusions to it.
The verse simply doesn't say anything about things past the age.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

HartleyDamboiseII

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #107 on: August 20, 2009, 01:52:54 PM »
KJV
Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 : as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
 I believe this answers the question of dead body on earth being made right/ cleaned/ sins forgiven after they died over 2009 years ago.

When it says All it means All after we Gentiles are come in, "IMO" INTO CHRIST

Lee Damboise


Offline claypot

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #108 on: August 20, 2009, 02:52:12 PM »
martin & cardinal,

martin, all those scriptures you gave. i did not see one that said God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after death. cardinal, UR is great news if you can show me in the bible chapter and verse where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever. God inspired scripture so if He grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies. it should be in there. i'm just simply asking you to show me where it is.

lee, all those scriptures you gave. i did not see one that said God allows people to go to hell forever.lee, ET is horrible (great to you though right?) news if you can show me in the bible chapter and verse where God allows someone to experience eternal hell. God inspired scripture so if He grants eternal hell after someone dies, it should be in there. i'm just simply asking you to show me where it is.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline claypot

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #109 on: August 20, 2009, 03:02:58 PM »
lee, Jesus does not live by the chapter and verse method you need. If you want Jesus then you must read the whole of Scripture with the Holy Spirit as your guide.

Where does it say clearly that God grants salvation after one dies, you ask?

In the WHOLE of Scripture. I see it clearly. Look in the first 3 chapters of Genesis and it is so very clear there, you can't miss it. Look in Exodus, wow, a perfectly clear statement that would answer your questions in a perfectly clear way. All the way through Revelations.

Read your Bible, don't turn to us or those around you for Jesus. Go to Jesus Himself, via the Holy Spirit, and you will find your answers.

Come to us here on this forum only if you want fellowship. Don't be false with us in attitude or whatever. We are all imperfect in Adam as you are and perfect as you are in Christ. His work is perfect.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

HartleyDamboiseII

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #110 on: August 20, 2009, 03:08:44 PM »
I am not the other Lee, I have been a UR person for about 10 years.
there is no hell as the churches teach.
I do not believe that any separation(sin) from God exist, after death was destroyed 2009 years ago. or so.

the other lee i was hoping would read this and "get" some answers.

I have been Lee Damboise II for a very long time on this site

Offline claypot

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #111 on: August 20, 2009, 03:13:48 PM »
I am not the other Lee, I have been a UR person for about 10 years.
there is no hell as the churches teach.
I do not believe that any separation(sin) from God exist, after death was destroyed 2009 years ago. or so.

the other lee i was hoping would read this and "get" some answers.

I have been Lee Damboise II for a very long time on this site

Are you directing this to me Lee? If so, I fully understand who you are compared to lee with a small 'l' so don't worry, I am not confusing you two.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

HartleyDamboiseII

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #112 on: August 20, 2009, 03:23:07 PM »
This is Good
Lee Damboise II

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #113 on: August 20, 2009, 03:30:17 PM »
Hi cp.
Don't let CoG, Lee take away your peace! You always sounded like a vessel of love. I'm off-line for 1 week and you have  become a vessel wrath... :winkgrin:

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #114 on: August 20, 2009, 03:37:24 PM »

lee, Jesus does not live by the chapter and verse method you need. If you want Jesus then you must read the whole of Scripture with the Holy Spirit as your guide.
I never met HS. I'm not denying He can/will be of great help. But I would like to add common sense goes a long way too. (Isaiah 1:18  Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:)
Just read verse the way they are written. Don't add or remove parts of a verse. Try to keep doctrine out.
There are still many mysteries in teh Bible for me. But at least my 'read what it says' approach doesn't cause contradictions I have explain away.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

HartleyDamboiseII

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #115 on: August 20, 2009, 03:48:01 PM »
Whitewing, I truely pray that you use non-toxic bibles like the CLV AND OTHERS

Lee Damboise II

Offline claypot

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #116 on: August 20, 2009, 03:56:26 PM »
Hi cp.
Don't let CoG, Lee take away your peace! You always sounded like a vessel of love. I'm off-line for 1 week and you have  become a vessel wrath... :winkgrin:



I hear ya WW and thanks for watching out for me. I needed to hear your words. Everyone has buttons, that when pushed, bring out all kinds of things, good and bad. cog, I personally don't blame cog, but the cogster pushed some buttons. I told my wife that if she loved me she would cut the computer cord. ha ha ha

I will heed your words and I hear ya on the HS too. I just think if God is, then there is the Spirit (God) who works via our common sense and other areas. Too mysterious for me.

Thanks again WW.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #117 on: August 20, 2009, 04:03:48 PM »

WW has a good point and I am not saying the Holy Spirit does not guide us, but we do not need to play with scripture in that way with others.

1 Timothy 2:4 says what it says.   Lee/COG says that He needs the Chapter and Verse for what He asks and that in and of itself is not "wrong" to ask. 

If a person puts together that God saves same of mankind and some of mankind will be in hell it contradicts 1 Timothy 2:4.  For LEE/COG to say otherwise He will have to violate his own conditions that He has placed on us here.

So believing that after we die from this earth there is no forgivness or repentance available still contradicts 1 Timothy 2:4. 

 I can put Lee's inquiry to rest that we cannot show a chapter and a Verse that reads as He specifically expects,  this does not prevent the bible from containing that message.

That said,  so far I have not seen someone like LEE /COG be able to present the totality of their own beliefs without contradicting themselves and violating the terms of their own expectations of others.   

LEE/COG writes.

you must believe in Jesus before you die to have that applied my friend. read john 6:47.


Jn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


This verse absolutely does not say  "You must believe in Jesus before you die to have that applied" in any translation but yet, LEE/COG gave this verse to read after saying that.

So the fallacy of his own expectations has been proven.



Offline WhiteWings

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #118 on: August 20, 2009, 04:09:50 PM »
Whitewing, I truely pray that you use non-toxic bibles like the CLV AND OTHERS

Lee Damboise II

Hi LD2  :laughing7:
I use KJV because Strongs is linked to it (in the software I use)
Others:
- YLT
- Rotherham
- ISA2
- Bullinger/Companion Bible
- Brenton LXX
- Plus some more

My guess is you replied because I wrote:
Quote
Just read verse the way they are written
But also read in the same message
Quote
doesn't cause contradictions I have explain away.
Toxic Bibles do require me to explain things away...
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #119 on: August 20, 2009, 04:13:24 PM »
I told my wife that if she loved me she would cut the computer cord. ha ha ha
You are still on-line  :pointlaugh:

Quote
I just think if God is, then there is the Spirit (God) who works via our common sense and other areas.
Could be true. I can't really know/verify if (all) my thoughts are really formed by the chemical process in my head...
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

HartleyDamboiseII

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #120 on: August 20, 2009, 04:28:59 PM »
Lee Damboise II
Also believes that the bible is written like to two different groups, i.e. all new testaments writings are addressed to/ and written to certain peoples, the people under the law and not under the law, most of paul's writings are addressed to "His" new gospel people. From Acts 28:28 to Philemon.
And I believe that only these messages apply to the new gospel found in Grace, all other pertain to Law abiding people "sinners" and If you are not a follower of "their" 640 Laws, then you are and never have been a sinner, or a transgressor of laws that have never applied to gentles.

of course this is my own system of salvation, thoughts, and understanding.
sinfree@gmx.com
Lee Damboise II

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #121 on: August 20, 2009, 04:32:55 PM »
I can put Lee's inquiry to rest that we cannot show a chapter and a Verse that reads as He specifically expects,  this does not prevent the bible from containing that message.
I think it would be best for Lee/CoG just for 2 weeks blindly accept the answers He gets to his questions.
That gives a broader overview of UR. Then after those 2 weeks look critically at the answers.
Do the answers contradict? Ask explanations.
But when 10 answers form a none contradicting story you may have found some truth.
If a verse is totally different explained in UR as it is in ET it just means the explanation is different.
In my opinion things works like this. (over simplified) Some verses are very vague. (ignore for a while)
Other verses can be explained in 1 or 2 ways. Keep those answers in mind.
Then start to combine the verses as consistant story. If a certain verse doesn't fit then use the other possible meaning.
You will get tens of thousands combinations. But only one combination fits.
The Bible is just like a huge padlock that doesn't use a key put numbers. I don't know how it's called in English. We call it a number lock. Each wheel with numbers represent the possible interpretation of a verse.
When the lock opens you interpretated all verses correctly. You cracked the Bible code without using the sledge hammer approach taht many use...
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #122 on: August 20, 2009, 04:36:50 PM »
 :cloud9: EXCELLENT reFORMer........ :thumbsup: Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Tony N

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #123 on: August 20, 2009, 05:10:04 PM »
Hey guys,

In my quest to find truth of UR, i rely on the bible only. i don't rely on extra-bible books or commentaries from other people. How do we know those people are Holy Spirit inspired? you don't. so what it really comes down to in my mind is can you show biblical proof of sins being forgiven and repentance after someone dies? I know people die in their sins everyday. 180,000 people die everyday worldwide. I have seen the scriptures 1Cor3:15 and phil2:10 and romans 5;18 and all the others(very good scriptures) but where does it say they will repent and be forgiven if they die in their sins? So, that being the case , if someone die s in thier sins where in the bible does it say they will come to repentance and be forgiven? thanks guys.

Dear Lee100,
Look at Revelation. Please take note in Revelation that Christ is still reighning, there are still sovereignties, authorities and powers in force and death has not yet been abolished. Yet the apostle Paul sees beyond John's Revelation when he prophecies:

  (22)  "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."  (23)  Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;"  (24)  thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power."  (25)  For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.  (26)  The last enemy is being abolished: death.  (27)  For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him."  (28)  Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 CLV

In Revelation where it is stated "death shall be no more (Rev.21:4)" this is only for those IN the New City Jerusalem. We know death is still in operation on the new earth after that statement for in Revelation 21:8 it talks about those put into death.

So Paul indeed sees death, the second death being abolished AFTER Christ quits reigning and AFTER all sovereignties, authorities and powers are annulled.

These people will then have God All in all of them.

Tony
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #124 on: August 20, 2009, 05:12:48 PM »
 :cloud9: That is an excellent point Tony; never saw that before. THANK YOU.  :thumbsup: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor