Author Topic: I guess it comes down to this.  (Read 8513 times)

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Offline gregoryfl

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2009, 03:33:08 AM »
As long as you believe that this thing you do called repentance, and maybe baptism too (it is in the same verse Ac 2:38) activates the forgiveness of God, you will never see that you are asking a bogus question, one that has no bearing on the truth of the matter. As long as you see the "for" there as a requirement instead of a response, we cannot go any further in this, in my opinion.

Ron

lee100

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2009, 03:38:18 AM »
ron,

i kinda see what your saying. but for your sin to be forgiven you have to exercise faith in Jesus' sacrifice for your sins. just because Christ went to the cross  does not give everyone their sins forgiven. for that to be reality you have to believe. but like i said not all people who die are dying believers with their sins forgiven in Christ. that is where my question comes in. where in the bible does God grant repentance and faith for forgiveness of their sin after they die?

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2009, 03:41:00 AM »

 I am starting to have a sense of deja vu here also........ :sigh:


It's obvious.
The style and tone are exactly as cog's.

lee100

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2009, 03:45:39 AM »
beloved,

why is it when i ask simple questions about the theology you believe in you get offended and attack me? please just answer my simple question. after all this is where the rubber hits the  road for your beliefs, correct? I'm just asking you to show me biblically where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies. thats all. no more. no less. why is this so dificult? are these scriptures not in the bible?

Offline gregoryfl

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2009, 03:49:06 AM »
ron,

i kinda see what your saying. but for your sin to be forgiven you have to exercise faith in Jesus' sacrifice for your sins. just because Christ went to the cross  does not give everyone their sins forgiven. for that to be reality you have to believe. but like i said not all people who die are dying believers with their sins forgiven in Christ. that is where my question comes in. where in the bible does God grant repentance and faith for forgiveness of their sin after they die?
Ok, I cannot speak for anyone else, but there is no specific verse in scripture which says what you are asking. If you don't mind, I would like to address what you said, and ask some questions about it.

You said that "for that to be reality you have to believe." I agree with that. My question is, who's reality? Your's or God's? I think you know my answer as I gave it earlier. That is important to understand. Also, let me illustrate it this way.

If I were in prison and someone came along and offered to serve my sentence for me, thus setting me free, and they came and opened my prison door and told me that I was free to go; let's say I don't believe them and stay in my prison. Am I free? Or am I still in prison? In my reality, I am in prison. In true reality, I am a free man. All my walking out of the prison (i.e. repentance) does is acknowledge the fact that it is true, that I am truly free. If I stay in prison until the day I die, I will have died a free man. Physically, that would be the end of the story. With God however, it is not.

My other question is, would you then say that Jesus' death only potentially forgave sin? Is there a specific scripture which teaches that?

Ron

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2009, 03:52:41 AM »
That was not an attack, merely an observation.
The tone and style of writing are hauntingly familiar.
No offense intended, nor should be taken.

lee100

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2009, 03:55:55 AM »
ron,

i thought so. i can not for the life of me find scripture that supports God granting repentance and forgiveness of sin to poeple after they die. but maybe someone on this forum can show us.

i like your anaology but i believe the person's faith and repentance is the reason why jesus goes in the prison and tells you are free, not just the fact you are there.

yes and no..or maybe. there are scriptures that say he died for His people and the church. but i might be wrong.

repentance n according to salvation is a change in mind that gives a change of action.

Offline claypot

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2009, 04:02:12 AM »
is this how you treat people who ask you simple questions about what you believe? why should i believe in UR if you cannot or will not show me? im asking you to do a simple chapter, verse in the bible where God grants man repentance and forgiveness of sins after they die. please i know there has to be somone on this forumthat can provide these exact scriptures.

The Holy Spirit will someday.

There is no one here who will be able to provide any Scripture that will cause you to see the truth that God loves everyone and that His love will save the same. The answers to my questions would be the answers to yours but you can't even answer them. You are only looking for an argument IMO.


cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline gregoryfl

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2009, 04:15:36 AM »
In my analogy, the man cannot repent, meaning, walk out of the prison, until he knows he is free. The repentance, (i.e. walking out of the prison) is the result, not the requirement, for walking as a free man. It is the same with salvation.

Gilbert

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2009, 04:34:52 AM »
I am starting to have a sense of deja vu here also........ :sigh:
It's obvious.
The style and tone are exactly as cog's.

The more I read of this thread, the more I found myself asking the question; "Does it really matter?".
Should anyone really give a hoot if someone chooses to believe in UR or not?
Like, are we talking here about someone losing out on something critical to his redemption er sumthin?
Hardly likely.
It's all seems so much of a distraction.
I learned a long time ago that those who shout the loudest are oftentimes the most insecure about their beliefs. And I learned too that many of those who become suffocated with their having to dot the i's and t's of doctrines are inadvertently confessing their own spiritual immaturity.
Instead of busying ourselves with the question, "What do you believe?", I think we should be eagerly answering the more important question, "Who is Jesus?".
After all, unless we know who Jesus is, our very Christian experience is put at risk. Without discovering who Jesus is, we cannot possibly obtain an understanding of who we are in Him; and that is the very crux of our born again experience.
Anyways, I feel sorry for those who feel compelled to chase down those who might not agree with the ideas of UR. It's a dog not worth hunting with. Our task is not to expose the darkness. Rather, our task is to be a light which extinguishes the darkness. We are not asked convict people of their waywardness. Rather, we are asked to convince people of their need to know Jesus.
I guess it is all about attitude ... and some attitudes I see here are wanting.

martincisneros

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2009, 04:38:55 AM »
claypot,

thanks for your reply. my motive is simple. if i'm going to believe UR to be true i want to see the bible verses that say people are granted repentance and are forgiven of their sins after they die. it is really simple stuff. just show me in the bible where it says this and then i know it to be true and from God and not from man.
First of all, it falls to you to prove that at death is irreversible judgment and Hebrews 9:27 isn't an answer since it's about the High Priest of Israel figuratively dying for Israel each year as their substitute, so also Christ was offered ONCE....etc....

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. (Hebrews 2:14-17 -- those who all of their lifetimes, implying it was past their lifetimes)

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1Corinthians 15:22 -- who are those that are made alive? Those that die in Adam.  Those that are dead in Adam.  Those that were in Christ when He died are made alive and those that were in Adam when he died are dead -- simple -- Christ is what's called in theology the recapitulation or reheading of ALL things.)

1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Ephesians 2:1-3 -- dead in trespasses and sins -- now made alive in Christ, and we were no different from the children of disobedience according to this Scripture.)

14 For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him. (2Samuel 14:14)

May he be blessed of the LORD who has not withdrawn His kindness to the living and to the dead. (Ruth 2:20)

6and he said, "O LORD, the God of our fathers, are You not God in the heavens? And are You not ruler over all the kingdoms of the nations? Power and might are in Your hand so that no one can stand against You. (2Chronicles 20:6)

4"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. (Ezekiel 18:4 -- He bases is ability to punish on the fact that the souls are His rather than not His.)

In Jude 1, Sodom and Gomorrah are put forth as the example of age-lasting fire, and in Ezekiel 16:53-55 we have:

53"Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity,
54in order that you may bear your humiliation and feel ashamed for all that you have done when you become a consolation to them.
55"Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will also return to your former state. (Ezekiel 16:53-55)

11"Yours, O LORD, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, indeed everything that is in the heavens and the earth; Yours is the dominion, O LORD, and You exalt Yourself as head over all.
12"Both riches and honor come from You, and You rule over all, and in Your hand is power and might; and it lies in Your hand to make great and to strengthen everyone. (1Chronicles 29:11-12)

13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."  (Revelation 5:13 -- under the earth obviously includes every grave.)

11 " As for you also, Because of the blood of your covenant, I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit. (Zechariah 9:11)

14 " I will ransom them from the power of Hell; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Hell, I will be your destruction!" (Hosea 13:14)


Probably 4 dozen additional passages could be cited on this, but if you're not starting to see by now that perhaps more can be said in it's behalf, Scripturally, than you'd previously considered possible, then citing the rest of them isn't going to make a believer out of you, if your heart's hardened to the Father seeing the fruit of the travail of Christ's soul and being genuinely thoroughly satisfied.  He laid on Him the iniquity of us all, and the crime can't be prosecuted additionally after someone was already raised from the dead in absolute proof that it had all already been dealt with!

Offline Cardinal

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2009, 04:45:31 AM »
 :cloud9: Why WOULDN'T anyone want to see UR is my question? It's not just good news, it's GREAT NEWS. You have to be OPEN to receive, just as the hands of the High Priest were OPEN and filled with incense before the Most High. An open hand before God means you want HIM to fill it. Fists closed on pet doctrines cannot receive. Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

martincisneros

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2009, 04:57:51 AM »
I was one of the ones that thought the eternal torment paradigm made perfect sense, Scripturally, philosophically, et. al.  So, I understand the process. Even if some folks genuinely SAW IT in the Written Word for themselves, if they've been MARRIED to the other paradigm, it can take a really long time and going thru all 500+ verses about it to be confidently persuaded where you wouldn't emotionally stumble backwards about having slipped into error.  It took me about 42 months after having been a spiritual jumping bean over having genuinely SEEN it in the Written Word of God for my mind to have any peace about it that it genuinely is the clear teaching of the Scriptures and many many great and wonderful men of God that have encouraged, inspired, and lead me to Christ in my youth were simply wrong about this particular thing.  Doesn't mean every other truth I learned was hogwash.  Just means this one thing was in error.

preistsplace

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2009, 04:59:17 AM »
Too true Cardinal.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2009, 05:04:26 AM »
I was one of the ones that thought the eternal torment paradigm made perfect sense, Scripturally, philosophically, et. al.  So, I understand the process. Even if some folks genuinely SAW IT in the Written Word for themselves, if they've been MARRIED to the other paradigm, it can take a really long time and going thru all 500+ verses about it to be confidently persuaded where you wouldn't emotionally stumble backwards about having slipped into error.  It took me about 42 months after having been a spiritual jumping bean over having genuinely SEEN it in the Written Word of God for my mind to have any peace about it that it genuinely is the clear teaching of the Scriptures and many many great and wonderful men of God that have encouraged, inspired, and lead me to Christ in my youth were simply wrong about this particular thing.  Doesn't mean every other truth I learned was hogwash.  Just means this one thing was in error.

 :cloud9: Yeah, I can see where being taught that all of your walk would do that to you.

I was blessed not to have any previous instruction on any of it prior to God telling me within a few months of finding Him that hell was simply separation from God and that there were many walking around in shoe leather that were separated from Him. That freed me to listen for other momentous explanations not offered in the churches.
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

lee100

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2009, 05:40:02 AM »
martin & cardinal,

martin, all those scriptures you gave. i did not see one that said God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after death. cardinal, UR is great news if you can show me in the bible chapter and verse where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever. God inspired scripture so if He grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies. it should be in there. i'm just simply asking you to show me where it is.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 05:59:38 AM by lee100 »

lee100

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2009, 05:55:55 AM »
ron,

isnt that what the gospel is all about? when the sinner hears it, he either believes or he don't. the ones who do respond to the gospel are let out of prison and are saved. right? repentance in regards to salvation is changing of ones mind that results in a change of action.

Gilbert

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2009, 06:04:42 AM »
ron,

isnt that what the gospel is all about? when the sinner hears it, he either believes or he don't. the ones who do respond to the gospel are let out of prison and are saved. right? repentance in regards to salvation is changing of ones mind that results in a change of action.

Thanks for the question you gave here.
I am not the one to be answering it; but I am impatiently awaiting the answer that someone else might volunteer.

Zeek

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2009, 06:07:47 AM »
martin & cardinal,

i did not see one that said God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after death. cardinal, UR is great news if you can show me in the bible chapter and verse where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever.

Rom 7:9  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Rom 7:10  And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
 
Rom 7:11  For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Rom 7:12  Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:13  Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.



So here Paul dies,

and then is granted repentance and salvation

Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Paul Hazelwood

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2009, 06:08:45 AM »

Oh how surprising, Cog made the "show the exact verse" fallacy too.       :bdh:

lee100

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2009, 06:12:35 AM »
zeek,

those are awesome scripture, but they don't talk about God granting repentance and forgiveness of sin AFTER someone physically dies.

Zeek

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2009, 06:13:37 AM »
zeek,

those are awesome scripture, but they don't talk about God granting repentance and forgiveness of sin AFTER someone physically dies.

think outside the box.  who said physical death has anything to do with it.  that's just a human with a limited belief system, imposing it on a God where all things are possible.

lee100

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2009, 06:21:47 AM »
zeek & paul,

zeek, everyone is going to die sometime. not all die believers, alot die unbelievers. i don't think outside of God's word. so if you can show me in the bible where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever, that is what i'm looking for or your exactly right all we would be doing is thinking outside the box and not relying on God's word.

paul, why is it fallacy to ask for proof in the bible, chapter and verse where God granting repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever? fallacy to me would be if you cant show me chapter and verse in the bible. this is where the rubber hits the road for UR and your telling me its a fallacy to show chapter and verse in the bible to prove it?

Offline lookingup

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2009, 06:26:25 AM »
lee100: you said:
Quote
kinda see what your saying. but for your sin to be forgiven you have to exercise faith in Jesus' sacrifice for your sins

We read in:  Eph 2:8 -
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    This says if God doesn't bestow this upon you, you will not have the "faith" to excercise.

Is there ANY scripture that says He bestows this gift upon you in this life only?

My last question is this:  How is this following scripture true if there is no redemption after this life?

        Isa 26:9 - 
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness

My final comment is this puny man needs to stop trying to limit  God to mans level.

Just the last 2 or 3 days i have been floating around the idea that if man does indeed "choose" to go to this fabled hell, then doesn't that give him authority over Gods' desire for all to come to repentance?


Paul Hazelwood

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Re: I guess it comes down to this.
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2009, 06:29:25 AM »
zeek & paul,

zeek, everyone is going to die sometime. not all die believers, alot die unbelievers. i don't think outside of God's word. so if you can show me in the bible where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever, that is what i'm looking for or your exactly right all we would be doing is thinking outside the box and not relying on God's word.

paul, why is it fallacy to ask for proof in the bible, chapter and verse where God granting repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever? fallacy to me would be if you cant show me chapter and verse in the bible. this is where the rubber hits the road for UR and your telling me its a fallacy to show chapter and verse in the bible to prove it?


You engage in the fallacy of expecting a verse to be shown to YOUR satisfaction in the exact manner you ask.

It is not a failure on our part to deliver.