I am Very Skeptical over Universalism

[lomarah]

God brings us the easiest way we'll come.

 

[shawn]

IMO, these are really good responses that have already been shared.      

  Many have said  Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
If Universalism is True, it seems "too good to be True" and if something seems
"too good to be True" It Probably is, and Universalism is thus, False,

Human reasoning, which is usually not necessarily in accord with God's.

I was Baptised in a  Lutheran Church earlier this year-2012, Did  Martin Luther accept Universalism,

One way to look at it, it doesn't really matter who did or didn't believe in UR.  Technically, every man on earth could be wrong about something, but in the final analysis, it's what does God think and plan about something?  That said, Luther had this to say;  "God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future." (Martin Luther's letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)

Jab, I think that quote was a bit mistranslated.

It would be quite a different question whether God can impart faith to some in the hour of death or after death so that these people could be saved through faith. Who would doubt God's ability to do that? (Martin Luther's letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)

However, after having said this, he continues to say that

No one, however, can prove that He does do this. (Martin Luther's letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)

Martin Luther was basically discussing the revealed and hidden things of God.  I believe ML felt that it was impossible to know by God's revealed word if He was willing to impart faith after death.  But, he was unwilling to rule it out.  He later talks about the discussion of such things being of profit to those who are mature in the faith, but could be detrimental to those young in the faith...a doctrine of reserves kind of mentality.

[legoman]

  Many have said  Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
If Universalism is True, it seems "too good to be True" and if something seems
"too good to be True" It Probably is, and Universalism is thus, False,

As WW said, this is not really a good argument.  It can be turned around on the other side:

Eternal torment is "too good to be true".  Where else do you get to proclaim yourself saved in blissful eternity while knowing your enemies suffer forever because heck, they deserve it.

From this view we know eternal cannot be true (aside from being "too good to be true") because Jesus taught us to LOVE our enemies.

[jabcat]

IMO, these are really good responses that have already been shared.      

  Many have said  Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
If Universalism is True, it seems "too good to be True" and if something seems
"too good to be True" It Probably is, and Universalism is thus, False,

Human reasoning, which is usually not necessarily in accord with God's.

I was Baptised in a  Lutheran Church earlier this year-2012, Did  Martin Luther accept Universalism,

One way to look at it, it doesn't really matter who did or didn't believe in UR.  Technically, every man on earth could be wrong about something, but in the final analysis, it's what does God think and plan about something?  That said, Luther had this to say;  "God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future." (Martin Luther's letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)

Jab, I think that quote was a bit mistranslated.

It would be quite a different question whether God can impart faith to some in the hour of death or after death so that these people could be saved through faith. Who would doubt God's ability to do that? (Martin Luther's letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)

However, after having said this, he continues to say that

No one, however, can prove that He does do this. (Martin Luther's letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)

Martin Luther was basically discussing the revealed and hidden things of God.  I believe ML felt that it was impossible to know by God's revealed word if He was willing to impart faith after death.  But, he was unwilling to rule it out.  He later talks about the discussion of such things being of profit to those who are mature in the faith, but could be detrimental to those young in the faith...a doctrine of reserves kind of mentality.

Yeah, thanks, I haven't dug into it too much, sounds more complicated.  I had heard about the quote and pulled it off an article here;

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/martin_luther_universalist.html&sa=U&ei=6bI3UNe1E9L1qAGyg4HQDQ&ved=0CAcQFjAB&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNG7I2Q_Mz6M-9cqDdpNG7DTvAi2eg

For the sake of the TAF question, I'd guess we both agree though that it matters very little what Martin Luther believed about it anyway.  What does God "believe"!   

[shawn]

I would certainly agree with that last sentiment.  It matters little to me what ML believed.  What I do know is that there are historical accounts of ML being heavily involved in the persecution of several groups including the Anabaptists...over the baptism of babies none the less.  It amazes me that some cling fast to doctrines set forth by men who have murdered brothers in Christ over doctrinal minutia.

[jabcat]

We do some crazy stuff, don't we?  Thank God for His love and mercy.

[ded2daworld]

As I understand it after studying it for 43 years now, it falls into two categories:
ET'ers believe that if one doesn't surrender their life to the lordship of Jesus before the end of this mortal life, they will be tortured for all eternity. Case Closed.
UR'ers believe that the end of this mortal life is NOT the end and that all will eventually come to the Lord Jesus in love, gratitude and thankfulness - rather than a "forced" confession when "every knee shall bow and confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father"
There is no glory to the Father if this bowed knee confession is forced in any way.

[dajomaco]

If one day can be as a thousand years.
If thousand years can be as one day.

1 Day = 1000. years
1 hour = 41 and ½ years
1 Second = 253 days

In the Olympics they measure down to the one, one hundredths of a second .

The one, one hundredth of a second, or call it the twinkling of an eye.
The twinkling of an eye is 2 and ½ days long .

Plenty of time for an alter call.

[jugghead]

If one day can be as a thousand years.
If thousand years can be as one day.

1 Day = 1000. years
1 hour = 41 and ½ years
1 Second = 253 days

In the Olympics they measure down to the one, one hundredths of a second .

The one, one hundredth of a second, or call it the twinkling of an eye.
The twinkling of an eye is 2 and ½ days long .

Plenty of time for an alter call.

Love the breakdown dajomaco, awesome.

As for universalism being to good to be true, therefore it is false, is that not an assumption in underestimating the power of God? One statement I believe to be truth is this, assumption is the mother of all screw-ups, which I believe screw-ups are just another way to say "interpretation" or "translation".

My two cents

[ded2daworld]

Of course universal salvation sounds  too good to be true.
God's love is infinite and surpasses all understanding of man.

The actual quote is "if something sounds too good to be true then it PROBABLY is.
God's love is also improbable

[TheAuthenticFan]

 I say that Sadly,  have you read the  Anti-Universalist books
"All Dogs go to Heaven, don't they" by R.Maurice Smith
and "Universalism NOT of the Bible" by N.D. George, both on Amazon.com,
   Bible verse taken directly OUT OF CONTEXT are often Twisted and Distorted and Misinterpreted to Teach
Universalism, I wish Universalism was True, But the Bible is  TOO COMPLEX to Properly Interpret
and tell which is True, Universalism or Eternal Torment,
   Did anyone see the Book  "Universal Salvation: The Current Debate" on Amazon.com

[TheAuthenticFan]

   Where St. Paul in the New Testament says "God will be all in all"
   All in All is Merely a   Figure of Speech, and in NO WAY  hints or even Suggests that all Humans will be Saved,
               I do NOT want  Satan the Devil or his Demons to be in Heaven the Afterlife, will Satan be saved, I hope not

[TheAuthenticFan]

           I'm a Lutheran Christian,   For the Life of me,
I can't Imagine in my Mind  a Literal, Visible Second Coming of Christ,
Even a  Billion with a B, years from Now,  sure I believe in Christ,
But I just  Cannot Picture in my Mind  Jesus EVER  Returning to Earth, I am Skeptical about the Second Coming

[dajomaco]

I can't Imagine in my Mind  a Literal, Visible Second Coming of Christ,

Sounds to me like your Spirit is awake and looking for food.
Try imagining your Spirit being fed by the Holy Spirit.

Just imagine you have a spirit and it is yours alone,
 and imagine there is a Holy Spirit that feeds your spirit.
Imagine that the actual feeding occurs while you are thinking
about the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross. 

[j.]

   Where St. Paul in the New Testament says "God will be all in all"
   All in All is Merely a   Figure of Speech, and in NO WAY  hints or even Suggests that all Humans will be Saved,
               I do NOT want  Satan the Devil or his Demons to be in Heaven the Afterlife, will Satan be saved, I hope not

What part of "all" do you not understand, besides the "a" and two "l's"?

If what Paul wrote was a figure of speech, he would have written something along the lines of "God will seem to be all in all", or "It is as if God will be all in all"...He may have even employed metaphor or simile.

But that's not what he wrote, is it?

As far as not wanting to see Satan and the demons reconciled, I would suggest two things. First, get to know what "Satan" really is according to scripture. Second, check yourself. If you (or any of us, for that matter) "deserve" a place in the restitution of all things, then every living thing does.

It has nothing to do what we do. It has everything to do with what He did.

Once you understand that basic premise, you will understand all that you are not seeing, here and now.

And, guess what? That will happen in His time.

[reFORMer]

Its also understood here that if anyone or anything is "saved," according to the Scriptural category of doctrine called "Soteriology," it means they are changed, they are transformed.  For instance, if Chairman Mao, who was responsible for five times as many murders as Hitler, Stalin and Lenin combined, if he was to be saved, it wouldn't be as the horrible monster that he was.  He would have a new name and a new nature by means of God's Holy Spirit.  Biblical Salvation is not preserving the sinner in his sin.

A persistent error of many who believe in ceaseless torture for ever is that such a state results from God's wrath toward us.  Hence, salvation according to them means we are saved from God.  They teach salvation is from being tortured ceaselessly for ever.  The topic of our transformation into the image and likeness of God is not even brought up in this scheme.  True Biblical Salvation is from sin and its result, which includes sickness and death.  Salvation ultimately results in incorruptible immortality.

[jabcat]

Its also understood here that if anyone or anything is "saved,"  it means they are changed, they are transformed.... would have a new name and a new nature by means of God's Holy Spirit.

 

[WhiteWings]

For instance, if Chairman Mao, who was responsible for five times as many murders as Hitler, Stalin and Lenin combined, if he was to be saved, it wouldn't be as the horrible monster that he was.

Exactly. Paul is  a great example of that.
Paul converted people to Christianity instead of the old Paul, called Saul, who's mission was to kill Christians.

Will Paul enter heaven? I'm sure all Christians will answer that question with "yes".
What if Paul remained Saul (the Christian killer) until his death? Meaning he wouldn't be an Apostle but just a maniac Jew with a sword. Would he enter heaven?
The only difference between both examples is that the Light converted Saul into Paul.

[mp77]

I would to like to say that the reason I believe that MOST people except for the one that deny Christ completely after they have found the truth about Him; will go to heaven. So I do believe in a hell. But the reason I believe that those who do not know the truth still go to heaven. It is because I look at where Jesus said" father forgive them for they know not what they do. This tell me that these soldiers did not know Jesus. Yet He still forgave them. They didn't know He was the Christ until after He died. Just as people in the world do not know the truth or can't comprehend it. I believe these people will be saved.

[CHB]

Hi All,

I have read this thread and was thinking about why people believe in ET, when we didn't have any choice as to being born.
God didn't ask our permission that Christ die for us.
God gave us only 70 years to get it right, so say most religions.
we have no absolute positive proof that what we think we know is the truth.
God allowed all of these different denominations and beliefs so that we couldn't know the whole truth. We humans would brag and get all puffed up if we knew it all.

If God is a fair and honest God and has any kind of love for his children and if he was going to torment some of them forever...
Why didn't he give us a perfect map for us to follow.
Why didn't he give us a perfect Bible with no mistakes and no contridictions?
Why didn't he give us more time to get it right? 
Why didn't he teach us personally? Only he knows it all.

If the wages of sin is death, what exactly is ET for? If ET is true why isn't Jesus being tormented for anyone?
What does it take to pay for the debt of ET? 
What does one have to do to avoid ET? 
Some will say repent and except Christ but it plainly says "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess".

Just a few of the things that came to mind while reading all this.

CHB   


 

[LordsDaughter]

I think when someone first seeks to live their life in faith, they have to find a faith, tradition, philosophy, that speaks truth to their heart. Something that resonates as true enough to give their life to, their sense of self, their personal identity. And from there have that bolster the relationship they have evolved with their sense of self and their own morality.
I think if you can make a very good argument for why in your opinion universalism is not credible, then you should find something else to believe in. Because no matter the religion, faith, tradition or philosophy, there are going to be proponents and opponents. Those that can tell you why something holds merit and those who will just as passionately argue why that is not true.

And since you're here at our discussion forum, perhaps you might consider reading the articles made available at Tentmaker.org.

Proof for the Teaching of Christian, Biblical Universalism
(Doctrine of Inclusion, Ultimate Reconciliation, Universal Salvation, Apokatastis, Apocatastasis, Universal Redemption, The Larger Hope, The Greater Faith, The Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Paul's Gospel, Glorious Gospel, Universal Restoration, Universalism, Victorious Gospel, No-Heller, Universal Reconciliation)
By Gary Amirault

And, "Bible Matters" (Article #7 is very good imo)
In fairness, a Fundamentalist or Evangelical Christian could read that article and find fault with it. They could make valid Biblical arguments that it's content and points are simply not true.

As a matter of personal truth however, I think the seeker, which sounds like yourself, if they choose to read it, have to arrive at their own conclusion. Does it feel real? Does it sound true? Does a God of love exist within that philosophy? Does a God of love create a paradigm of eternal torment or universal repentance? Which one would best reflect what you can accept as God who is love to the very core of it's being?

What other people "say" about Universalism it may be said, is that what is proffered by those who are not Universalists. So when one first ascertains what those people who are saying those things believe in themselves, they may realize where their critique is coming from. Especially if what they give their life to in faith is a philosophy that in itself would be diametrically opposite of Universalist teaching.

So much of religion is arrived at, especially in holy writ, from 'what people said' long generations ago. What is the covenant, in my opinion, that makes faith a way of life rather than a religion adopted for one's living, is what the spirit of the faith communicates to you personally.

May God bless your journey,

 

   My name is TAF- TheAuthenticFan,  First I have read that Many verses
Used to Teach Universalism are Taken Directly Out of Context and Misinterpreted to teach Universalism, and those verses really do NOT teach Universalism, that the Universalists "Read into" those verses to suit their Theology of Universalism, and these so-called "Universalist" verses must be taken in regards to the Clear Teaching of Eternal Hellfire Verses, In such books as
"All Dogs go to Heaven, don't they" by R. Maurice Smith and  "Universalism NOT of the Bible" by N.D. George,  available at  Amazon.com,  and Probably many others that Refute Universalism
     The Debate over Whether the Bible teaches Eternal Torment or Universalism is
TOO COMPLEX to ever be Solved, NO ONE has Proven for Certain that the Bible teaches all Humans will Ever be Saved, No one knows,  The Bible is Far too complex, and Hopelessly Contradicts Itself, it is Impossible to Prove Eternal Torment or Universalism, simply impossible
Don't get me Wrong,   I want MOST Humans and Non-Christians to eventually be in Heaven,
  My 5th grade teacher, Mrs. Feldman, she is fully Jewish, VERY nice woman, but Rejects Christ,
She is in her 80's ,  I don't want her to "Burn in Hell"
   Some Christians have said "Universalism is a FALSE DOCTRINE, a FALSE GOSPEL, it's of Demons"
    And some have said "The Universalists think they have it Right and the Whole Church has got it Wrong"  Could all those Christian Experts be Wrong ,
   And the Greek Word "Aion"  even if it doesn't always mean Endless in Duration
One Greek Word, wheter it means an "Age" or Endless in Duration, or Both, or Varies,
That does NOT Proove if Universalism is True or NOT, will Satan and his Demons be Saved

[dajomaco]

If there is and eternal torment ,when would Gods anger ever end.

[TheAuthenticFan]

   What about  Hebrews 9:27, that Verse is Used often to show
that Universalism is FALSE,  that there are no Second Chances After Death to Repent and Accept Christ, that once a person dies without Christ all hope is lost for them
Where St. Paul says  God will be "All in All"  again  "All in All" is just a Figure of Speech and in No way even Suggests Everyone will be Saved, all humans will be Saved,
At Beast  Universal Salvation for every single Human Being is a  Remote Possibility, Only God Knows for Certain,  will  Satan the Devil and his Demons be Saved, Can Satan Repent, Does God love Satan

[WhiteWings]

If "all in all" is a figure of speech why Hebrews 9:27 isn't  a figure of speech?

I think the first thing you should do is figure out what judgement is.
Does an earthly judge has just 2 rulings? Death or freedom?
Read the OT where David asks God to judge him.

[CHB]

   Universal Salvation for every single Human Being is a  Remote Possibility, Only God Knows for Certain,  will  Satan the Devil and his Demons be Saved, Can Satan Repent, Does God love Satan

Remote posibility??? Yes, Satan will be saved and I am sure God loves him since he created him. (2Cor. 5:18) And ALL THINGS are of God.
(Col. 1:16) For by him were ALL THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisable, {this includes Satan}.

CHB