Author Topic: I am Very Skeptical over Universalism  (Read 9575 times)

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TheAuthenticFan

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I am Very Skeptical over Universalism
« on: August 23, 2012, 06:11:29 AM »
   My name is TAF- TheAuthenticFan,  First I have read that Many verses
Used to Teach Universalism are Taken Directly Out of Context and Misinterpreted to teach Universalism, and those verses really do NOT teach Universalism, that the Universalists "Read into" those verses to suit their Theology of Universalism, and these so-called "Universalist" verses must be taken in regards to the Clear Teaching of Eternal Hellfire Verses, In such books as
"All Dogs go to Heaven, don't they" by R. Maurice Smith and  "Universalism NOT of the Bible" by N.D. George,  available at  Amazon.com,  and Probably many others that Refute Universalism
     The Debate over Whether the Bible teaches Eternal Torment or Universalism is
TOO COMPLEX to ever be Solved, NO ONE has Proven for Certain that the Bible teaches all Humans will Ever be Saved, No one knows,  The Bible is Far too complex, and Hopelessly Contradicts Itself, it is Impossible to Prove Eternal Torment or Universalism, simply impossible
Don't get me Wrong,   I want MOST Humans and Non-Christians to eventually be in Heaven,
  My 5th grade teacher, Mrs. Feldman, she is fully Jewish, VERY nice woman, but Rejects Christ,
She is in her 80's ,  I don't want her to "Burn in Hell"
   Some Christians have said "Universalism is a FALSE DOCTRINE, a FALSE GOSPEL, it's of Demons"
    And some have said "The Universalists think they have it Right and the Whole Church has got it Wrong"  Could all those Christian Experts be Wrong ,
   And the Greek Word "Aion"  even if it doesn't always mean Endless in Duration
One Greek Word, wheter it means an "Age" or Endless in Duration, or Both, or Varies,
That does NOT Proove if Universalism is True or NOT, will Satan and his Demons be Saved

TheAuthenticFan

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I wish this Debate could be Solved
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2012, 06:13:27 AM »
I truly do

Offline lomarah

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Re: I am Very Skeptical over Universalism
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2012, 07:04:39 AM »
Welcome TAF. :)
The answer is in knowing the Father. Have you ever had Him speak to you? When you know His voice it becomes much easier to know the truth about "ET" vs "UR". He IS Love. :)

Blessings.
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: I am Very Skeptical over Universalism
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2012, 07:24:53 AM »
Hi TAF,

Maybe you make the Bible to complex.
If you read verses/words the UR way the Bible isn't easy but not extremly complex.
OTOH if someone 'wants' to see teh Bible teaching ET it gets difficult. Contradictions need to be explained away by complex scholary approaches. That gets complex.


Quote
Used to Teach Universalism are Taken Directly Out of Context and Misinterpreted to teach Universalism,
Are you currently a bit more open than before,  to the possibilty that UR is Biblical?

 :hithere:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jugghead

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Re: I am Very Skeptical over Universalism
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2012, 08:59:52 AM »
There are only three possibilities when it comes to salvation:

First: that none will be saved
Second: that some will be saved
Third: that all will be saved

Since it is clear that you believe in God, the none possibility is eliminated.

If you already understand the Bible in the context of eternal torment, now study it in the context of Universal Reconciliation.

Give it to God and let Him explain it.
Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

Offline shawn

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Re: I am Very Skeptical over Universalism
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2012, 09:37:45 AM »
Welcome TAF. :)
The answer is in knowing the Father. Have you ever had Him speak to you? When you know His voice it becomes much easier to know the truth about "ET" vs "UR". He IS Love. :)

Blessings.

Amen!  If you know the Fathers heart you know the truth.  While I believe there is strong evidence of UR from the original languages...that isn't what convinced me.  It was revelation through relationship.

Offline lomarah

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Re: I am Very Skeptical over Universalism
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2012, 09:52:51 AM »
Welcome TAF. :)
The answer is in knowing the Father. Have you ever had Him speak to you? When you know His voice it becomes much easier to know the truth about "ET" vs "UR". He IS Love. :)

Blessings.

Amen!  If you know the Fathers heart you know the truth.  While I believe there is strong evidence of UR from the original languages...that isn't what convinced me.  It was revelation through relationship.

Yes Amen!

Also: the truth sets us free. (So says our Lord.  :smile:) Does the knowledge that God is freeing all from their sin set you free, or the belief that He will allow some to be tortured forever? Does the knowledge that He really IS a loving Father (to ALL) set you free? I can't tell you how that knowledge finally set me free. And He is freeing me more and more every day. He is so much more amazing then we know... He really is our true heart's desire.  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: I am Very Skeptical over Universalism
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2012, 12:54:43 PM »
I don't agree that it isn't solvable or too complex to know for certain.  For now, it's too much for me to write out in detail, all the more for someone whose reception or response is unknown.

You must also remember God's purpose is to make us in His image and likeness.  That means, not only like the Inquisition of the past, but in the ages to come, you too must become a Master Torturer.  As one who is told to be an imitator of God, as his own dear child, how does that jive with your conscience?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 01:09:51 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline lomarah

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Re: I am Very Skeptical over Universalism
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2012, 09:49:30 PM »
WOW! GOOD POINT!
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

TheAuthenticFan

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More Opinions- Universalism is it Wishful Thinking
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2012, 12:05:01 AM »
  Many have said  Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
If Universalism is True, it seems "too good to be True" and if something seems
"too good to be True" It Probably is, and Universalism is thus, False,
I was Baptised in a  Lutheran Church earlier this year-2012, Did  Martin Luther accept Universalism,
And this Modern "Debate" over Universalism, is it an OBSESSION,
When did the Modern "Debate" Begin, What about the Anti-UR  Arguments on the website
GotQuestions.org

Offline shawn

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Re: More Opinions- Universalism is it Wishful Thinking
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2012, 01:09:28 AM »
  Many have said  Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
If Universalism is True, it seems "too good to be True" and if something seems
"too good to be True" It Probably is, and Universalism is thus, False,
I was Baptised in a  Lutheran Church earlier this year-2012, Did  Martin Luther accept Universalism,
And this Modern "Debate" over Universalism, is it an OBSESSION,
When did the Modern "Debate" Begin, What about the Anti-UR  Arguments on the website
GotQuestions.org

So you base your belief systems off of trite colloquialisms and whether or not Martin Luther accepts UR understanding?  Any questions gotquestion.org has on their site, I'm sure we have seen before.  I would recommend using the search function to see if the question has been answered on the site.

I suppose my next question would be are you a true seeker, or are you here to argue ET?

Offline shawn

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Re: I am Very Skeptical over Universalism
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2012, 01:24:32 AM »
And I just took a look at gotanswers...and as soon as I seen the argument that the only way to the Father is through Jesus, and that is why UR is false...then I know the author is misinformed about UR teaching.  Debating misinformation gets tiresome.  As for "eternal"...there are plenty of posts addressing that topic.

There are many strong Scriptures that support UR but the one the hit home the most for me was...Revelations 21...specifically 21:25.  When you understand what Jesus was talking about with the word Gehenna (trash dump outside the city gates...translated into hell)...then you begin to see what is happening.

 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

Why would the gates never be shut?  Gehenna (hell) is just outside the gates.  If all of those who will ever be saved are already in the Holy City, why keep the gates open?  Also, look up Lake of fire, sulfur symbolism on this site.  You will begin to get an even fuller picture of what happens in the Lake of Fire...and what actually dies.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: More Opinions- Universalism is it Wishful Thinking
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2012, 01:32:10 AM »
  Many have said  Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
If Universalism is True, it seems "too good to be True" and if something seems
"too good to be True" It Probably is, and Universalism is thus, False,
So if the Bible speaks about terror is very likely true.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: More Opinions- Universalism is it Wishful Thinking
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2012, 01:35:52 AM »
Many have said  Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
But still nobody seems to be able to refute it.
Claims like heresy, satanic lie, to good to be true, wishfull thinking, strawman arguments, etc. aren't refutations of the UR view on the Good Tidings Jesus  brought to mankind.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: I am Very Skeptical over Universalism
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2012, 01:45:59 AM »
And I just took a look at gotanswers...and as soon as I seen the argument that the only way to the Father is through Jesus, and that is why UR is false...then I know the author is misinformed about UR teaching.
Shawn, obviously I can't be 100% sure but my guess is they very well know they are lying.
They set up a strawman argument. "UR people don't believe/trust/need/etc" Jesus; therefore they can't be Christians."
That's an easy approach. Many advesatries of UR claim to know much about it. But somehow they overlooked UR people are as much Christ centered as, say, protestants.

Quote
Debating misinformation gets tiresome.  As for "eternal"...there are plenty of posts addressing that topic.

There are many strong Scriptures that support UR but the one the hit home the most for me was...Revelations 21...specifically 21:25.  When you understand what Jesus was talking about with the word Gehenna (trash dump outside the city gates...translated into hell)...then you begin to see what is happening.

 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

Why would the gates never be shut?  Gehenna (hell) is just outside the gates.  If all of those who will ever be saved are already in the Holy City, why keep the gates open?  Also, look up Lake of fire, sulfur symbolism on this site.  You will begin to get an even fuller picture of what happens in the Lake of Fire...and what actually dies.
How about the gentile/pagan/ no good/doomed kings entering New Jerusalem to honor Jesus and bring their nation with them?
:-)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline shawn

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Re: I am Very Skeptical over Universalism
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2012, 03:03:11 AM »
All very good points WW.

TheAuthenticFan

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So, about the Lake of Fire
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2012, 05:13:36 AM »
 So, are you saying that when people whose names are NOT found in the Book of Life
are Cast into the Lake of Fire, are those Un-saved in the Lake for Endless Duration being
Tormented or do they eventually exit the Lake of Fire and enter  Heaven or the New Earth
   What about the "Narrow Gate" Mentioned by Jesus in the Gospels, doesn't that Proove Very Few will be Saved,         And Also the Article on the Internet- Look it up
      Hybrid Universalism Refuted  Bible.ca

Offline shawn

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Re: I am Very Skeptical over Universalism
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2012, 05:56:59 AM »
Again I would offer the search function.  I don't mean to sound abrupt, just we get the same questions over and over again...same points.  Everything you have asked has been answered somewhere on this site.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: So, about the Lake of Fire
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2012, 08:13:27 AM »
So, are you saying that when people whose names are NOT found in the Book of Life
No nobody was saying that. We answered other questions.
Does your silence mean you agree, or simply you question without really wanting an answer?
Quote
....   And Also the Article on the Internet- Look it up
   I will if you read the OT.
Then you will find what blotted out really means and how long it lasts.
Blotting out is God ordained Jewish custom.
They even blotted out Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: More Opinions- Universalism is it Wishful Thinking
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2012, 10:02:32 AM »
IMO, these are really good responses that have already been shared.   :gthumbsup:   

  Many have said  Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
If Universalism is True, it seems "too good to be True" and if something seems
"too good to be True" It Probably is, and Universalism is thus, False,

Human reasoning, which is usually not necessarily in accord with God's.


I was Baptised in a  Lutheran Church earlier this year-2012, Did  Martin Luther accept Universalism,

One way to look at it, it doesn't really matter who did or didn't believe in UR.  Technically, every man on earth could be wrong about something, but in the final analysis, it's what does God think and plan about something?  That said, Luther had this to say;  "God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future." (Martin Luther's letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)

Offline jabcat

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Re: I am Very Skeptical over Universalism
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2012, 10:15:15 AM »
TAF, hi.  I can't speak for other believers in Christ who are also UR believers, but I'd suggest that even though very important, to not get so distracted by -

the Lake of Fire not being punitive but corrective,
God's work continues into the next ages, not just this age,
when Jesus supposedly "talked about hell" so much, he was often talking about upcoming punishment of the Jews in 70 AD (which occurred),
that all that's evil in us will be spiritually burned away, etc.,

to the point of forgetting that whether in this age or the next, every knee will still bow and confess Jesus as Lord.  And that it's still the work of redemption Jesus did on the cross, and that it's His blood that cleanses from unrighteousness and sin and belief upon Him as Savior that saves us.   


Offline jugghead

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Re: So, about the Lake of Fire
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2012, 11:37:55 AM »
So, are you saying that when people whose names are NOT found in the Book of Life
are Cast into the Lake of Fire, are those Un-saved in the Lake for Endless Duration being
Tormented or do they eventually exit the Lake of Fire and enter  Heaven or the New Earth
   What about the "Narrow Gate" Mentioned by Jesus in the Gospels, doesn't that Proove Very Few will be Saved,         And Also the Article on the Internet- Look it up
      Hybrid Universalism Refuted  Bible.ca

Separate the man from the beast of sin and it is the beast of sin that is cast into the lake of fire, not the man
Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

Offline shawn

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Re: So, about the Lake of Fire
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2012, 02:48:51 PM »
So, are you saying that when people whose names are NOT found in the Book of Life
are Cast into the Lake of Fire, are those Un-saved in the Lake for Endless Duration being
Tormented or do they eventually exit the Lake of Fire and enter  Heaven or the New Earth
   What about the "Narrow Gate" Mentioned by Jesus in the Gospels, doesn't that Proove Very Few will be Saved,         And Also the Article on the Internet- Look it up
      Hybrid Universalism Refuted  Bible.ca

Separate the man from the beast of sin and it is the beast of sin that is cast into the lake of fire, not the man

Amen.  And we will all walk through the fires of purification...either now or later.  But, we each have our own time.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: I am Very Skeptical over Universalism
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2012, 04:24:30 PM »
God brings us the easiest way we'll come.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Ross

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Re: I am Very Skeptical over Universalism
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2012, 07:13:04 PM »
1 Cor 3;15 " If anyone's work shall be burnt up he shall suffer loss,
but shall himself be saved, though thus as through fire."
Fellow brother in Christ