Author Topic: I'm sorry John 12:32- does NOT show Universalism (Read 879 times)

TheAuthenticFan · « **on:** November 23, 2012, 07:00:33 PM »

Where Jesus says "I will lift up all men to myself"
This just shows they shall be lifted up to Jesus- to be Judged, NOT that all are Saved, it does Not imply that, Maybe "All men" in this verse means, "All types of" but mentions Nothing of Salvation
See Explanation in the book
"All Dogs go to Heaven, don't they" by R. Maurice Smith

ded2daworld · « **Reply #1 on:** November 23, 2012, 08:21:24 PM »

IMO-
The next verse says that "Jesus said this to show the kind of death he was to die."
Q.)What kind of death was it?
A.) A sacrificial, substitutionary death on a cross for all the sins of humanity.
Q.) What was Jesus going to do "when he was lifted up"?
A. ) He said he would "draw"(the greek is literally DRAG) ALL men
Q.) Where/
A.) To HIMSELF.

This "All dogs go to heaven, don't they" is this a theological exposition of the scriptures, or some guys opinion?
It's hard for me to trust a book with the title like that over the word of God, buy, maybe that's just me.
An implication is just that. If you want to refute a scriptural implication, you must use scripture to refute.

Lazarus Short · « **Reply #2 on:** November 24, 2012, 05:36:46 PM »

Happily, UT does not depend on John 12:32 as its only proof text. Anyway, if lifting everyone up to Himself is for judgment, it's a poor way to phrase it, for judgment is almost always done with the person being judged being placed below the judge. "...will draw all men unto Me" connects in my mind to what Jesus said elsewhere about Himself as the Shepherd, and people being the sheep of His pasture. Jesus was always careful with words.

ded2daworld · « **Reply #3 on:** November 24, 2012, 06:21:16 PM »

He had to be careful Laz. "My word will NEVER pass away."

VineBranch · « **Reply #4 on:** December 03, 2012, 07:17:33 AM »

Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on November 23, 2012, 07:00:33 PM

Where Jesus says "I will lift up all men to myself"

Actually what he said was "draw". Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Christ didn't say he would get everyone together for something. He said he would draw them to him: not to a place, or to a thing, or to a time, or to a rehearsal dinner, or to a judgement. Keep the context. A few verses later he talks about walking in the light, and told the folk to walk in the light while they still had it. From the context it would seem to me that Christ is saying I will draw them to me, the light. This makes sense from the context.

I copied and pasted John 12 into a text editor and asked it to find the word judgement: it didn't find one instance. May I respectfully ask: Where do you read judgement in the text? No where do I see a discussion of Chirst's motivation beyond wanting the people to walk in the light.

jabcat · « **Reply #5 on:** December 03, 2012, 07:21:55 AM »

Quote from: VineBranch on December 03, 2012, 07:17:33 AM

Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on November 23, 2012, 07:00:33 PM
Where Jesus says "I will lift up all men to myself"

Actually what he said was "draw". Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Christ didn't say he would get everyone together for something. He said he would draw them to him: not to a place, or to a thing, or to a time, or to a rehearsal dinner, or to a judgement. Keep the context. A few verses later he talks about walking in the light, and told the folk to walk in the light while they still had it. From the context it would seem to me that Christ is saying I will draw them to me, the light. This makes sense from the context.

I copied and pasted John 12 into a text editor and asked it to find the word judgement: it didn't find one instance. May I respectfully ask: Where do you read judgement in the text? No where do I see a discussion of Chirst's motivation beyond wanting the people to walk in the light.

Vine, check this out;

"The primary definition of the word 'draw' in Greek says, "helkuo" is to literally to draw, drag off forcefully, pull with power.

Here are some other places the word "HELKOU" is used so we can get an understanding of Jesus's words.

John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew [HELKOU] it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.)

John 21:6 He said, "Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some." When they did, they were unable to haul [HELKOU] the net in because of the large number of fish.

Acts 16:19 When the owners of the slave girl realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged [HELKOU] them into the marketplace to face the authorities.

Acts 21:30 30The whole city was aroused, and the people came running from all directions. Seizing Paul, they dragged [HELKOU] him from the temple, and immediately the gates were shut.

James 2:6 But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging [HELKOU] you into court?

Nowhere has this word ever been used as a metaphorical usage of "Lead" or "Attract" or "Impel" in Scripture. It has always been used to indicate a refusal of the volition of the subject being dragged or drawn."

http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/helkou-what-does-it-mean-to-draw-all-men/msg20711/#msg20711

VineBranch · « **Reply #6 on:** December 03, 2012, 08:35:57 AM »

Thanks Jab.

I read the other discussion, a nice overview. I was reminded of two gunslingers facing each other, waiting to 'draw' their guns at high noon: I doubt they meant they would try to coax their guns out of their holsters.

The fire proof suits Grand Prix drivers wear have epaulets on the shoulders. They are really sturdy. They are there so that, in case of an accident the driver can be drawn/yanked/dragged/ripped out of the burning wreckage of the car by the fire team. I have yet to hear of a driver saying 'persuade me' or asking 'what's my motivation here'. If I'm drowning and you can grab my feet and pull me out of the water ... please, don't stand on ceremony draw/yank/drag/rip my sorry self out of the water.

Thanks again for the lead, I love it when God confirms His truth.

VineBranch · « **Reply #7 on:** December 04, 2012, 02:53:52 PM »

It seems to me that one of the things which may be hindering us in the understanding of the word 'draw' is that we are looking at it from Christ's perspective. He is quite capable of drawing us to Him. But it doesn't seem to give us our point of view. If we use the word in the passive construction, I think we may have a different take on it.

Have you ever been drawn to something: a work of art, a poem, a sunset, perhaps an attractive member of the other sex? I have. What I notice, when I think about it, is that I was enthralled with the object of my attention. I was 'pulled' to it. No one had a rope around me, I wasn't forced against my will, no one was moving the ground underneath me so that I was being routed toward something. It had attracted me to it and was literally attracting me to it. This is how I would use the word in the passive construction: the perspective of the one being drawn.

ded2daworld · « **Reply #8 on:** December 04, 2012, 02:59:32 PM »

Thats the way I see it VB. I can't imageine NOT being drawn to the creator of the universe and of our selves and of a person that loves us

gregoryfl · « **Reply #9 on:** December 04, 2012, 06:42:59 PM »

May I suggest that Jesus did not say he would drag or draw all MEN or PEOPLE to himself, but their judgment. I say this because the word 'men' and 'people' has been inserted into the text. He simply said that he would draw ALL to himself. To find out what the all is, we look at the previous verse, where he speaks of the judgment of the world. It is that judgment that he dragged to himself. Notice that the text does not say, as is traditionally interpreted, that he would begin a process of dragging, or start to drag, or drag over time, but rather that, when he was lifted up, AT THAT TIME, all would be dragged to him. If that all is the judgment of the world, then that judgment is part of that which he pronounced as 'it is finished'.

ded2daworld · « **Reply #10 on:** December 04, 2012, 07:17:16 PM »

Interesting greg, I hadn't looked at that verse that way before.
Since all includes the judgment, ALL cannot exclude people. All is All.
Jesus took on the judgment of sin AT THE TIME he was lifted up
Since by his death all men are acquitted or declared not guilty they were dragged into that judgment.
Since ALL was dragged or drawn to Jesus, I wouldn't exclude the people of the judgment.
By "it is finished" IMO it was the finish of all, the consumation and reason for
the sacrificial lamb of God.

VineBranch · « **Reply #11 on:** December 04, 2012, 09:58:33 PM »

Quote from: gregoryfl on December 04, 2012, 06:42:59 PM

He simply said that he would draw ALL to himself. To find out what the all is, we look at the previous verse, where he speaks of the judgment of the world.

In verse 31 Christ talks about the judgement of the world; He particularly mentions the prince of this world (Satan): "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out." (joh 12:31) This says to me that His 'lifting up' is the judgement against Satan. It is the judgement against Satan which is now; the battle for the bruised heal and bruised head has commenced and will end with "it is finished": consumatum est (it is finished) was the cheer Roman Legionnaires shouted at the end of a victorious battle. Because it is this battle which is finished, Paul can then say "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." ( Rom 8:1)

Quote from: gregoryfl on December 04, 2012, 06:42:59 PM

Notice that the text does not say, as is traditionally interpreted, that he would begin a process of dragging, or start to drag, or drag over time, but rather that, when he was lifted up, AT THAT TIME, all would be dragged to him. If that all is the judgment of the world, then that judgment is part of that which he pronounced as 'it is finished'.

May I respectfully submit He didn't say that this would happen 'when' He was lifted up, rather He said 'if I be lifted up': "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." (Joh 12:32) It is the act of being lifted up which starts things, not when that act takes place. Christ is talking about the consequences of the act, not the time of the act.

We are also not however, limited in our use of the word 'when' to refer exclusively to time. I could say, for example, "when you hit your finger with a hammer it will hurt". I am not using 'when' here to mean a specific time, I am use 'when' to show consequence. I could just as easily have said "if you hit your finger with a hammer it will hurt." So, I respectfully disagree with your assertion that Christ must by definition be referring to the timing of an event.

Quote from: gregoryfl on December 04, 2012, 06:42:59 PM

May I suggest that Jesus did not say he would drag or draw all MEN or PEOPLE to himself, but their judgment. I say this because the word 'men' and 'people' has been inserted into the text.

The 'men' was added because it was implied in the Greek. When we talk about the quick and the dead, it is implied in English that we are talking about the quick people and the dead people. Were it 'all', Christ would draw black holes, rocks, sticks etc to Him. Why would He need to do that? Translations are tricky, but I don't think adding a noun in one language to clarify meaning in another can be used to changes the whole timbre of a sentence. When James Joyce entitled his short story The Dead, it was implied the story was about people.

ded2daworld · « **Reply #12 on:** December 04, 2012, 10:12:14 PM »

That's what I tried to say VB.

VineBranch · « **Reply #13 on:** December 04, 2012, 10:26:08 PM »

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 04, 2012, 10:12:14 PM

That's what I tried to say VB.

You did ded, I just filled in some of the blanks.

ded2daworld · « **Reply #14 on:** December 04, 2012, 10:36:39 PM »

It amazes me how many brilliant, spiritual, people think the way I do.

Lazarus Short · « **Reply #15 on:** December 05, 2012, 03:29:58 AM »

Quote from: VineBranch on December 04, 2012, 09:58:33 PM

The 'men' was added because it was implied in the Greek. When we talk about the quick and the dead, it is implied in English that we are talking about the quick people and the dead people. Were it 'all', Christ would draw black holes, rocks, sticks etc to Him. Why would He need to do that? Translations are tricky, but I don't think adding a noun in one language to clarify meaning in another can be used to changes the whole timbre of a sentence. When James Joyce entitled his short story The Dead, it was implied the story was about people.

"The quick and the dead" should be understood as "the living and the dead." Look it up.

Yes, Jesus is going to draw/drag ALL to Himself, including black holes, rocks and sticks. He is reconciling the whole creation, remember. ALL of it - that's why the whole creation groaneth together...

VineBranch · « **Reply #16 on:** December 05, 2012, 03:46:43 AM »

Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 05, 2012, 03:29:58 AM

"The quick and the dead" should be understood as "the living and the dead." Look it up.

Yes, "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;" (2Ti 4:1); Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. (1Pe 4:5): the living (people) and the dead (people). I'm sorry where was the confusion?

Lazarus Short · « **Reply #17 on:** December 05, 2012, 03:58:11 AM »

Quote from: VineBranch on December 05, 2012, 03:46:43 AM

Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 05, 2012, 03:29:58 AM
"The quick and the dead" should be understood as "the living and the dead." Look it up.

Yes, "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;" (2Ti 4:1); Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. (1Pe 4:5): the living (people) and the dead (people). I'm sorry where was the confusion?

I just thought this sentence was confusing:

"When we talk about the quick and the dead, it is implied in English that we are talking about the quick people and the dead people."

eaglesway · « **Reply #18 on:** December 05, 2012, 04:59:46 AM »

What Jesus meant by, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me" is shown in....
Philippians 2:10 (Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.......whther in heaven, on earth or under the earth),

Ephesians 1:10,11(the gathering together into one of all things in Christ whether things in heaven or things on earth),

Colossians 1:16-20(For so it pleased the Father to make all fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross, whether things in heaven or on earth) and

Revelations 5:13 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
(Rev 5:11-13)
Behold, I am making all things new!Rev. 21:5

VineBranch · « **Reply #19 on:** December 05, 2012, 06:27:48 AM »

Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 05, 2012, 03:58:11 AM

I just thought this sentence was confusing:
"When we talk about the quick and the dead, it is implied in English that we are talking about the quick people and the dead people."

I get that. Perhaps I should have a used another translation; most of the modern ones seem to use 'the living and the dead'. I just love the language of the KJV. When I found out that quicken could actually mean 'to become alive; receive life'. it just made so much sense to me. Thanks for the heads up. I like the ESV, maybe I will quote from that.

Didn't mean to confuse: sorry.

VineBranch · « **Reply #20 on:** December 05, 2012, 06:42:43 AM »

Quote from: VineBranch on December 05, 2012, 06:27:48 AM

I like the ESV, maybe I will quote from that.

Hey Guys, get this if you will, a pro po our discussion of the meaning of 'all' in Joh 12:32: And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. (Joh 12:32) ESV

gregoryfl · « **Reply #21 on:** December 05, 2012, 12:48:48 PM »

ded2daworld · « **Reply #22 on:** December 05, 2012, 04:31:52 PM »

People nowadays are confused about the quick and the dead for 2 reasons. 1.) few read their bibles 2.) fewer read king james bibles. Several years ago, Hollywood released a movie with I think, Sharon Stone and Gene Hackman called "The Quick and the Dead." It was about gunslingers in the old west. It naturally followed if you weren't "Quick" (on the draw) you would be dead. Laz is right tho' in the 1600's quick meant to be alive. "Quicken their bodies" meant to give life back to the bodies.

VineBranch · « **Reply #23 on:** December 07, 2012, 08:05:07 AM »

I got a little scared a minute ago when I tried to make sense of the phrase "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." (Jas 4:8) KJV. "Good grief" thought I, this could destroy the whole 'draw' argument. What we have here is a phrase, in the active. The drawing nigh seems to be something which can be controlled by the drawer. I had visions of all the draw/drag/pull posts being seen as a big lie. There was something which was voluntary about about draw. It was a request or an imperative. I was ready to offer my apologies to the other side and bow out as gracefully as I could. I was devastated. I couldn't not share what I found, and yet it would defeat my argument if I did. Alas, with towel in hand I was ready to throw that object into the ring and retire to my knitting, never to allow myself to participate in any of the discussions again, because I had made an untrue statement.

There are seven verses in the KJV which use the words draw nigh. I hung my head in shame and went to face the music.

I decided to look up the seven verses and lo and behold, I found something. When the words 'draw nigh' are used they are actually not the same word as 'draw'. 'Draw nigh' is one word in the Greek and a totally different word from 'draw' which means drag.

How bout that!!!!

eaglesway · « **Reply #24 on:** December 07, 2012, 08:28:37 AM »

Yea but those seven verses still stand :o). "Draw nigh you sinners, cleanse your hands you double minded!" Is written to believers.

Jesus will drag all men unto Himself, but we have to incorporate ALL of the scriptures into our paradigms.

Jesus will "draw" all (unbelieving)men unto Himself- as in drawing a net full of fish(Jn 21:6,11)- by His love. :o)

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(Col 1:19-20)

To those He has dragged He speaks, "Draw Nigh!"

Today, if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts!

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Author Topic: I'm sorry John 12:32- does NOT show Universalism (Read 879 times)