Author Topic: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?  (Read 8900 times)

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Offline sheila

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #100 on: June 20, 2011, 08:51:10 PM »
 
   AS FAR AS I CAN SEE....THE ONLY GOOD THING THAT COME OF MAN EATING OF THE TOKOGAE......WAS GOD COMING TO JUDGE AND FULFILL THE LAW

   AND  GIVE US THE FREE GIFT OF GRACE


   FOR THE COMMANDMENT[NOT TO EAT OF TOKOGAE]WAS UNTO LIFE....OR IT WAS NOT GOD'S INTENTION TO BRING DEATH TO MAN...

  INDEED HIS GOOD INTENTIONS ARE MADE MANIFEST TO US,WHEN HE CANCELS OUT THE COMMANDMENT AGAINST US, AND GIVES US THE FREE

  GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE

   WOW! WHAT A FATHER.......WHAT LOVE!

Offline Cardinal

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #101 on: June 21, 2011, 01:06:58 AM »
 :cloud9: I just love it when you speak in tongues  :grin:  :girlheart: Great posts  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline thinktank

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #102 on: June 21, 2011, 01:49:20 AM »
There is another good thing from eating the TOKOGAE,

The man has become one of us, to know good and evil.


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Offline sheila

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #103 on: June 21, 2011, 02:28:58 AM »
a lot of good that knowledge would do us if we were dead :mblush:

Offline thinktank

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #104 on: June 21, 2011, 02:46:15 AM »
I believe God wanted us to have good and knowledge, but in His timing.

Stop them eating the tree of life, lest they live forever.

So there is nothing evil about the tree of knowledge.

 :2c:

Offline sheila

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #105 on: June 21, 2011, 03:42:12 AM »
  .....  it wasn't called tree of knowledge of good AND EVIL for nothing.....

    frankly,I think the TOL is a much wiser choice,also...no death in it...and lots of wisdom

   presumptousness is the same as witchcraft[babylon]

   wisdom is knowledge exercized in love

Offline thinktank

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #106 on: June 21, 2011, 04:09:28 AM »
God said that eating the tree of good and evil, made man as one of Us.

How can presuming being like God be a bad thing, when He spoke it  :dontknow:

As you said. Wisdom is exercised by knowledge, and knowledge also includes the knowledge of evil.

Adam and Eve did not have the wisdom.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 04:24:39 AM by thinktank »

Offline Molly

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #107 on: June 21, 2011, 04:18:37 AM »
Borrowed from another thread--

 Ps 17:15

I will be satisfied when I wake in your likeness.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #108 on: June 21, 2011, 04:18:58 AM »
God said that eating the tree of good and evil, made man as one of Us.

How can presuming being like God be a bad thing, when He spoke it  :dontknow:

God's already revealed purpose was to make mankind in His image and likeness.  The devil proposed it was to be accomplished by disobedience.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline eaglesway

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #109 on: June 21, 2011, 07:56:17 PM »
Just a few thoughts

Seems we never know what we have lost until it is gone. Its a hard way to learn, but it is the method we mostly learn by. Gratitude, thankfulness, appreciation for grace in the little things of life- what preservation from the arrows of the enemy and the thorns of our own worries and schemes! It is no wonder Jesus spent so much time talking about how the cares of this life and the love of material possessions are manifestations of death. It seems like the consciousness of limitation replaced the consciousness of God's infinite grace after we "ate". We forgot how to share and started killing each other pretty much right away.

There is more than enough to go around when God is in the work.

And God shall supply all your needs according to His riches and mercy...... And no one among them had any need...... and the word of the Lord grew and multiplied and God added daily to their number those who were appointed to deliverance.......

Considering the sparrow and the lily may be equivalent to eating from the tree of life

Worrying about what we shall eat and what we shall wear may be equivalent to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

Cain didn't "get it"- there was more than enough love to go around, it was just about learning how to walk with God. The acceptable sacrifice of a broken and contrite heart.

Cain felt he was owed something he didnt get, while Able got something he didnt earn.... "Who has known the mind of the Lord, who has given to Him that He should repay"

When the heart is broken and contrite the flaming sword that guards the garden is removed and the garden is opened

In that day the LORD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, With His fierce and great and mighty sword, Even Leviathan the twisted serpent; And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea. In that day, "A vineyard of wine, sing of it! "I, the LORD, am its keeper; I water it every moment. So that no one will damage it, I guard it night and day.
(Isa 27:1-3)

Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
(Rom 7:24-25)

The prophetic word can slay Leviathan, it can separate soul and spirit and expose the secrets of the heart, so that once i see my reflection I can remember the grace of God and the life that is in Jesus for the dead- those in whom death is working in Adam so that life can flow out of Christ the inner man. But it aint easy ! :o)

"Today if you hear His voice, harden not your heart...."   and they walked with the Voice of the Lord.



The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline thinktank

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #110 on: June 21, 2011, 10:21:41 PM »
God said that eating the tree of good and evil, made man as one of Us.

How can presuming being like God be a bad thing, when He spoke it  :dontknow:

God's already revealed purpose was to make mankind in His image and likeness.  The devil proposed it was to be accomplished by disobedience.

Yes. In fact the subtlety of the serpent was even more subtle than I have been told. Many of the things the serpent said I have found to be scriptural truth.


Offline Ross

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #111 on: June 22, 2011, 03:57:12 PM »
Christ in the wilderness had satan quote scriptures at him and Christ refuted those with scriptures.
Satan is the prince of this current age, but he is not the king of the universe in any way shape or form.
Fellow brother in Christ

Offline sheila

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #112 on: June 22, 2011, 07:17:28 PM »
     

     He does this footwashing with all of us,because He loves us. He has to unseal that Word of God and give us His understanding for us to be victorious

    and trample serpents beneath our feet...or walk on the waters above leviathan[Isaih 27;1-3]

Offline Nathan

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #113 on: June 22, 2011, 10:21:54 PM »
"why" be saved?  Because if you don't you can't "see" the kingdom.  You can't see "anything".  You can't reproduce His nature into others.  You can't hear the leading of his voice.  You can't discern truth.  You can't walk in his illumination.  You can't die to self.  Why be saved?  Because without him we are nothing.

Offline Molly

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #114 on: June 22, 2011, 10:44:42 PM »
God said that eating the tree of good and evil, made man as one of Us.

How can presuming being like God be a bad thing, when He spoke it  :dontknow:

God's already revealed purpose was to make mankind in His image and likeness.  The devil proposed it was to be accomplished by disobedience.

Yes. In fact the subtlety of the serpent was even more subtle than I have been told. Many of the things the serpent said I have found to be scriptural truth.
scriptural truth embedded in a lie.  Or a lie embedded in the truth.

Even today, those that run the world, always have to embed the truth in a lie  The truth is always there for those who seek it.  They are following some law that requires them to do this.

Offline thinktank

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #115 on: June 23, 2011, 01:48:26 AM »
Yes, many times I think that the only difference between good an evil is the motivation behind it.

E.g Jesus says to eat his flesh and drink his blood. This is a truth, yet coming from a evil viewpoint it would mean cannablism for the disciples to kill Jesus and cook him or to take His body and then....... , and coming from a natural viewpoint as some of the people did, it would be revolting and offensive.


Just thought I'd say though that Jesus did a lot of this :footmouth:

I think that perhaps Jesus could have done better job at preaching. But it occurred to me that every human being has different talents, and maybe Jesus while great at wowing crowds, carpentry and being the Son of God, not quite so good at delivering a message to the people. Maybe that's why He sent Paul, to clear up some things, that Jesus didn't have time or ability to do (Ability i.e relate to sinners, since Jesus was without sin and maybe did not quite understand how the natural mind works, or pheraps lapsed in those moments of divine revelation.

But Jesus is Lord and saviour

Praise

Offline Cardinal

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #116 on: June 23, 2011, 02:31:10 AM »
 :cloud9: Exactly. It's the motive of the heart. If God tells you to do it, then it's not sin, doesn't matter what it is, because HE dictates what is sin and what is not. Being maleable to His Spirit is what we have to learn, just as the Israelites were supposed to learn it. If they had been, more of them would have been receptive to the changes made. My  :2c:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline onlytruth

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #117 on: June 23, 2011, 03:52:18 AM »
good to see nathan back
blessings :icon_king:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #118 on: June 23, 2011, 04:49:00 AM »
"why" be saved?  Because if you don't you can't "see" the kingdom.  You can't see "anything".  You can't reproduce His nature into others.  You can't hear the leading of his voice.  You can't discern truth.  You can't walk in his illumination.  You can't die to self.  Why be saved?  Because without him we are nothing.


Pride; proud and pleased with self blind to the fact that our flesh is the creation and not the Creator!

Offline Nathan

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #119 on: June 23, 2011, 03:57:16 PM »
Yes, many times I think that the only difference between good an evil is the motivation behind it.

E.g Jesus says to eat his flesh and drink his blood. This is a truth, yet coming from a evil viewpoint it would mean cannablism for the disciples to kill Jesus and cook him or to take His body and then....... , and coming from a natural viewpoint as some of the people did, it would be revolting and offensive.


Just thought I'd say though that Jesus did a lot of this :footmouth:

I think that perhaps Jesus could have done better job at preaching. But it occurred to me that every human being has different talents, and maybe Jesus while great at wowing crowds, carpentry and being the Son of God, not quite so good at delivering a message to the people. Maybe that's why He sent Paul, to clear up some things, that Jesus didn't have time or ability to do (Ability i.e relate to sinners, since Jesus was without sin and maybe did not quite understand how the natural mind works, or pheraps lapsed in those moments of divine revelation.

But Jesus is Lord and saviour

Praise

Yikes!  Really?  You don't supposed it may have to do with the fact that Jesus was establishing SPIRITUAL principles with people who are embedded and bound to NATURAL reasoning?  He even said "why" he spoke in the way that he did, he did it because he was the fulfillment of the Scriptures to reveal the fact that those who had eyes could not see and those who had ears could not hear.  He quoted Psalms 115 and 135.  If you look up those passages, you'll find that the REASON why they were in that condition was because of IDOLS they themselves formed with their own minds and doctrines.  The idols have eyes but can't see, ears but can't hear and those who bow down to them become LIKE them so that they also can't spiritually see, hear, touch, discern, let alone understand spiritual truth.  In the passage in Psalms 135 it even says there's no breath in their mouths . . . which to me means there's no life in their words.

Jesus inadequate in delivering the gospel?  I really think it's the other way around.  People shackle themselves by leaning on their own understanding which makes them inadequate for receiving the Word.

Offline thinktank

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #120 on: June 23, 2011, 05:50:22 PM »
I understand your reaction. But please think through and see what I am saying.

You speak biblical truth that mankind is blind to spiritual truths and cannot discern between good and evil.

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

 11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

 12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

 13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

 14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

 15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

 16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear




I am simply saying that Jesus could have delivered His message a little better and speak more in tune with the people's understanding

Today I often hear preachers say that we need to speak the language of the world in order to reach out to them, as speaking churchy often offends the world.


54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

 59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

 60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

 61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

 62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

 68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.


Here we can see that even Jesus disciples, the ones that Jesus said were privileged to see, (First scripture above) were challenged and frustrated by the sayings of Jesus. This reminds me of many Christians feelings today, who don't understand the book, but simply put their faith in Jesus.


Offline Nathan

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #121 on: June 23, 2011, 09:57:28 PM »
I am simply saying that Jesus could have delivered His message a little better and speak more in tune with the people's understanding[/b]

I was doing a search for a particular passage and these others came up in the process . . . .

63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

Romans 8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


It just sounds like what you're trying to do is take the spiritual message Jesus was establishing and wishing he would dumb it down so natural minds wouldn't have to submit to spiritual truths.  It's kinda like having your cake and eat it to . . .(which never really made sense to me . . .) But Jesus wasn't here to cater to the mind of man . . .he came to renew it and the only way to renew a mind is through the Spirit.

"This" is the passage I was trying to look up.


1 Corinthians 2:9-11 (King James Version)
 9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
 10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
 11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
 14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
 16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
[/color

I can't explain it any better than that.  Unless of course I post a different translation of it . . .

Message says the latter part this way. . .
14-16The unspiritual self, just as it is by nature, can't receive the gifts of God's Spirit. There's no capacity for them. They seem like so much silliness. Spirit can be known only by spiritóGod's Spirit and our spirits in open communion. Spiritually alive, we have access to everything God's Spirit is doing, and can't be judged by unspiritual critics.

Offline thinktank

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #122 on: June 23, 2011, 10:21:38 PM »
I know Jesus wants us to come up hither, and not for Him to come down to us. But also God did come down to our level and became like unto us, we beheld His glory and walked among us. Look at this passage

5These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

 26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

 27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

 28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

 29His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

 30Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.


Here we see Jesus no longer speaking in proverbs and as soon as Jesus speaks plainly, the disciples hail Him and see Him as the Son of God.

Would it not be better had Jesus did this all along? It seems that perhaps Jesus learned that the disciples were not understanding the proverbs, so He decided to speak to them plainly. If Jesus is so against speaking plainly why speak plainly here to the disciples? and why prophecy that the time will come when He will no longer speak in proverbs, bu will show you plainly of the Father.

There is another scripture which shows that Jesus did learn/grow as He got older

Luke 1:80
 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.

Another point is that the apostle Paul comes along and speaks plainly concerning salvation of all men, Concerning the Mosiac laws etc

We can be as spiritual as Mother Teresa, but we can never be as God is, so maybe God had difficulty communicating His message to people that are very different to Him. Jesus said greater works shall you do, Jesus said that. One advantage we as sinners have over Jesus is that we have sinned and can relate better to sinful humanity perhaps.

 :2c:


Offline Nathan

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #123 on: June 23, 2011, 10:37:33 PM »
I guess I really can't come to the place where I think Jesus or God either one struggled in communicating anything to us.  And to the "speaking plainly" reference, if you keep it all in context, Jesus never actually changed the way he spoke, he was actually repeating what he'd been saying all along.  It was just the disciples finally matured into a place spiritually where they could finally see what it was he was saying the whole time.  As to Paul . .. I think it was Peter who wrote about Paul saying that he realizes the things Paul says are difficult to understand . . .which indicates that Paul wasn't really simplifying all that much as people still saw the things he said as complicated.  And much of what Paul "was" relaying, were things Jesus was directly telling him.

It's all in personal perspective I guess.

pneuma

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #124 on: June 23, 2011, 11:46:13 PM »
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.


TT a parable is not spoken in order to hide its meaning and parable is spoken in order to reveal the meaning of something hidden. To us (the child of God) it is given to know the mysteries but as those who do not know God, (those mysteries the child of God know) Jesus spoke in parables so that they would come to know those mysteries.

The people saw and heard about the things of God but could not understand the mystery, therefore, Jesus spoke in parables so that they would be able to understand the mysteries.

People have a wrong understanding of what a parable is, it is not to hide the secrets but to bring the secrets to light.

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.