Author Topic: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?  (Read 8830 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2011, 06:06:57 PM »
Quote from: Taffy
Do you think Paul again is making a distinction between  The WOMAN= Church = Eve  to be in subject to the SPIRIT\Man \Christ=  TEACHING A spiritual PRINCIPLE THROUGH The natural\Physical being man and WOMAN-

Yes I do.  He says he's speaking in mysteries, and of Christ and the church, when he speaks of husband and wife.  But, I also think he's making a point about the distinction between Adam and Eve themselves that has an independent meaning when he says one was not deceived, the other was deceived and therefore in the transgression [doesn't have to have anything to do with man and woman.]. 

Example, if the police order me not to go into a burning building, and I rush in anyway to save a life, am I breaking the law?  Love covers a multitude of sins.

Quote
Marys name means rebellion Right? she too is a FIGURE of the WOMAN known as OLD JERUSALEM, While NEW Jerusalem is the ""MOTHER"of us ALL

I didn't know that.  That's very cool.

Quote from: ww
That has nothing to do with the fact that Adam sinned.
Quote
Wages of sin is death. Adam died so he has sinned


Ok.  Let's say that Adam sinned.  Now what?  We have thousands of years between Adam and Moses, with no law at all.  Not even the command that Adam was given because they do not have access to the garden.  So--how do you break the law if there is NO law? 

Paul is speaking like a lawyer when he talks about death reigning even though sin is not imputed.  After Adam, it doesn't matter what you do, good or bad [by what measure?] you are still going to die.  During this time, we have two types of people--those who are walking with God, calling on the Lord, and those who aren't--but all die [except for Enoch maybe].

I just think it's interesting, from a legal standpoint.  If there is no law, how do I argue my client is innocent?  How do I get him out of jail?  How do I save his life? There is no way.  Satan loves a police state where people can just disappear and be murdered at a whim.

I think there is a reason why God establishes the law before he saves them, because, like you said, now he can do things under the law to save them which no one can argue against.

I'm not putting this very well, but maybe you can see what I'm trying to say lol.  If the New Jerusalem is the mother of us all, we are born into freedom, we are free, --and then, as Paul says, the law comes and we die.  But, before the law was given, Death reigned.

It's more complicated than this but I'm trying to answer the question--How does Jesus save mankind?  First answer is he dies in our place under the law.




Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2011, 07:00:00 PM »
Quote
Ok.  Let's say that Adam sinned.  Now what?  We have thousands of years between Adam and Moses, with no law at all.  Not even the command that Adam was given because they do not have access to the garden.  So--how do you break the law if there is NO law?
Adam sinned because he ate from the tree which was forbidden. So he broke that law. Yes you are correct that between that event and Moses there were no laws to break.
That's why sin was not imputed.
But the curse of death had already started
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2011, 07:23:30 PM »
Quote from: ww
Yes you are correct that between that event and Moses there were no laws to break.
That's why sin was not imputed.
But the curse of death had already started

Here's a question for you.  Aren't the wages of sin, Death?  But, if there is no sin imputed, why would I die?

Something changed with the action of Adam which is bigger than the Law.

God is not rolling dice with his opponent.  He's playing chess.

Offline CHB

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2011, 07:29:50 PM »
Wasn't Adam created as sinful flesh? (Rom. 8:20) For the creature was made subject to vanity.
Wouldn't Adam have sin on him even though there was no law?  I think this is how Jesus saved humanity, by becoming flesh. He was resurrected from this sinful flesh and became immortal just like we will.
CHB


Offline Molly

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2011, 07:43:11 PM »
Wasn't Adam created as sinful flesh? (Rom. 8:20) For the creature was made subject to vanity.
Wouldn't Adam have sin on him even though there was no law?  I think this is how Jesus saved humanity, by becoming flesh. He was resurrected from this sinful flesh and became immortal just like we will.
CHB
I guess it depends how you read that.

Was man created subject to vanity?  Or was he made subject to vanity after he was created?


"was made subject" [to vanity]

G5293
ὑποτάσσω
hupotassō
hoop-ot-as'-so
From G5259 and G5021; to subordinate; reflexively to obey: - be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.


Hupotasso from the two words, hupo and tasso, literally to be set [appointed, placed in position] under.  Under what? Death.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 07:49:51 PM by Molly »

Offline CHB

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2011, 10:19:56 PM »
Molly, just my understanding of this but I believe man was made in sinful flesh subject to death.  God said, "dust thy are and dust thy shalt return".  Was man something else before he became dust? Don't know. Oh the mystery of it all.  :dontknow:  :happy3:

CHB

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2011, 10:24:44 PM »
Quote from: ww
Yes you are correct that between that event and Moses there were no laws to break.
That's why sin was not imputed.
But the curse of death had already started

Here's a question for you.  Aren't the wages of sin, Death?  But, if there is no sin imputed, why would I die?
Sin was imputed when Adam broke the law of eating of that tree.
From that point on to Moses no sin was imputed because the tree was gone.
The reason people die is because starting from that first sin the whole earth was/is cursed.
People die because of that curse that can't be undone by rightous living.
So basicly 2 things are running parallel.
Ongoing sin and the effect/curse of the first sin

 :2c:
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 10:52:17 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2011, 10:30:11 PM »
Molly, just my understanding of this but I believe man was made in sinful flesh subject to death.  God said, "dust thy are and dust thy shalt return".  Was man something else before he became dust? Don't know. Oh the mystery of it all.  :dontknow:  :happy3:

CHB

Just thinking about the lottory system, CHB.  You're the one that taught me about that.


Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;



"partakers" [of flesh and blood]
G2841
κοινωνέω
koinōneō
koy-no-neh'-o
From G2844; to share with others (objectively or subjectively): - communicate, distribute, be partaker.

Offline Molly

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2011, 10:52:38 PM »
Quote from: ww
The reason peopel die is because starting from that first sin teh whole earth was/is cursed.

Well, you throw around a word like curse as if it makes some kind of sense.  It doesn't really.  It doesn't explain anything.

Who is this Adam that he can cause the whole world to be cursed?

Offline CHB

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2011, 12:11:53 AM »
Eve sinned before she ever partook of the tree. She lusted, was prideful. Could it be that the flesh is the answer to the whole thing? Jesus said "the bread I give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world".

CHB

Offline Molly

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2011, 12:20:06 AM »
Eve sinned before she ever partook of the tree. She lusted, was prideful. Could it be that the flesh is the answer to the whole thing? Jesus said "the bread I give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world".

CHB
yeah.


 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

 21And having an high priest over the house of God;

 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

--Heb 10

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2011, 12:31:27 AM »
For...
The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Offline Taffy

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2011, 12:36:55 AM »
Thought TAKING hold Birthed the sin ,so sin is manifested - its Not what Enters a Man which defiles HIM, its what COMES out--  :sigh:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2011, 12:45:28 AM »
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

--Heb 10

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2011, 01:57:17 AM »


But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
                                                                                                          James 3

Offline Molly

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2011, 07:52:29 AM »
Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.
--Heb 2:11


14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
--Heb 10:14

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2011, 08:20:57 AM »
Quote from: ww
The reason peopel die is because starting from that first sin teh whole earth was/is cursed.
Well, you throw around a word like curse as if it makes some kind of sense.  It doesn't really.  It doesn't explain anything.
The earth was cursed but it had no effect on anything?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2011, 08:57:23 AM »
Quote from: ww
The reason peopel die is because starting from that first sin teh whole earth was/is cursed.
Well, you throw around a word like curse as if it makes some kind of sense.  It doesn't really.  It doesn't explain anything.
The earth was cursed but it had no effect on anything?
In Gen 3, the serpent is cursed by God for what he has done, and the earth is cursed for what Adam has done.  Two curses.

But, Adam is not cursed.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2011, 11:30:49 AM »
Ok.

Japan near the nuclear reactors can be seen as cursed land too. Those that live on the 'cursed ground' near the reactors will suffer regardless how good those people are.

I'm not sure if Adam was not cursed. God warned Adam not to eat from the tree or else he would die. That's a curse. Of course you could argue that it was at best a curse for 1 man instead of mankind.
Not checked it yet but many times when we read Adam the person, it should have been translated mankind (very similar words in Hebrew)
I think Jesus is the mirror image. He had a perfect life and His reward was not that He would live but that whole mankind would live.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Taffy

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2011, 03:11:15 PM »
Quote from: ww
The reason peopel die is because starting from that first sin teh whole earth was/is cursed.
Well, you throw around a word like curse as if it makes some kind of sense.  It doesn't really.  It doesn't explain anything.
The earth was cursed but it had no effect on anything?
In Gen 3, the serpent is cursed by God for what he has done, and the earth is cursed for what Adam has done.  Two curses.

But, Adam is not cursed.
:icon_flower:

 The serpent our  POWER of discernment[ judgment] beginning as  a SUGGESTIVE thought in our minds=  or a thought TO ENTERTAIN

Nate mentioned when eve ate the Fruit[ her discernment being IN ERROR, didnt bring forth LIFE but opened up their OWN carnal state--- they saw NOTHING other then the physical, there knowledge became earthly, as did their soul ,the eve within us lays DEAD to spirtual understanding UNTIL HE BIRTHS THE SEED HIDDEN WITHIN :icon_flower:

so the LORD curses the serpent-because of the determination of ADAM  \EVE  tHis  ERROR  OF discernment to where it belongs--- in the EARTH \DUST ONLY ABLE UNDERSTAND the literal\earthy\ CARNAL KNOWLEDGE\that which lays UNDER the  natural SUN ,BUT  nothing SPIRITUAL .. its this MIND, the carnal mind which LIVES off other carnal MINDS---Cursed to feed of it all its LIFE--- beware satan  THE ROARING LION Roams the EARTH seeking what HE CAN devour---- :sigh:

UNDERSTANDING ONLY THAT which is Literal  is the FOOD of the serpent as thats all it percieves---- Now Consider PETER once again -- he perceived with his CARNAL mind only the LITERAL , not understanding the SPIRUTAL meaning of the LORDS death--- satan wants to SIFT your AS WHEAT--- SHAKE YOU----meaning to shake what was being birthed in their New understanding through the teaching of our LORD

He also CUT with a LITERAL sword --- he trusted in HIS own STRENGTH ,carnal MIND to withstand denying HIM-- Poor peter went through the MILL but is a great example for us ALL :HeartThrob:

Christ was without sin, never everFELL into the error of discernment ---withstanding ALL the PHYSICAL\literal  likened to the JEWS thrEW at HIM--- HE suffered\SUFFERS the ignorance of their \OUR EVE--- :icon_flower:

IS there a GREATER LOVE then aa MAN who lays DOWN HIS LIFE for another   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 03:31:10 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2011, 03:22:34 PM »


THY WILL BE DONE MY LORD.

Self must die and vacate the THRONE of God.


Offline micah7:9

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2011, 06:24:12 PM »
Wasn't Adam created as sinful flesh? (Rom. 8:20) For the creature was made subject to vanity.
Wouldn't Adam have sin on him even though there was no law?  I think this is how Jesus saved humanity, by becoming flesh. He was resurrected from this sinful flesh and became immortal just like we will.
CHB

 :thumbsup:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

nes

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2011, 10:39:07 AM »
So everyone is so sure of who, what, when, where, how people go to heaven, hades, and the lake of fire, but not sure of why? 

I think the why question needs to be solved first in order to figured out the who, what, when, where, and how.  I'm still waiting for a reply.

So why do people become "saved" by "believing in" jesus?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 10:45:47 AM by nes »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2011, 06:16:42 PM »



"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Offline Taffy

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Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2011, 09:28:31 PM »
Quote
So why do people become "saved" by "believing in" jesus?
in short

But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
 :icon_flower: the opening of the veil within the heart  :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.