Author Topic: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?  (Read 10528 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

nes

  • Guest
How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« on: April 18, 2011, 09:09:54 AM »
It seems that a lot of people can't explain the answers to the simplest questions about Christianity.  I would be one of those people who can't find an answer to some of them.

So, how exactly did the lord & savior jesus "save" mankind?  I'm looking for technical details on how and also goes along with scripture.

So any explanation, I believe, should make sense with the following:

  • Why people in paradise did not go to heaven until jesus was in the process of being resurrected back to life?
  • Why people will still go to hades after jesus died (until judgement day) if jesus supposedly "took away" all future sin?
  • Why you become a new creation when you are "in" christ?
  • The purpose of jesus forgiving anyone (before his death) if nobody is able to go to heaven without believing.
  • How a believer can commit the sin of no longer believing or lusting/hating anything if they cannot sin?
  • If believers are sinless on earth, why were the disciples rebuked by jesus from time to time?  (Luke 9:46-48, Luke 9:49-50, Luke 9:51-56, Mark 8:33, & many more)
  • Why are people in heaven incapable of committing sin unlike the angels that rebelled?
  • Why do people in heaven not desire to sin?
  • How the sacrifice/resurrection allows people to get a new heart and spirit?
  • Why did Jesus need to sacrifice himself and raise himself from the dead?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 10:55:49 AM by nes »

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13058
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2011, 01:40:27 PM »
Hi Nes,

I don't have all the answers...

Quote
Why people will still go to hades after jesus died (until judgement day) if jesus supposedly "took away" all future sin?
Quote
The purpose of jesus forgiving anyone (before his death) if nobody is able to go to heaven without believing.
Personally I think being forgiven and believing are 2 different things.
The wages of sin is, was and always will be death. However Jesus payed that bill. Without that the dead would be very dead for enternity. But that doesn't mean we don't have to believe. UR people thing that everybody will at some point of time believe.

Quote
If believers are sinless on earth, why were the disciples rebuked by jesus from time to time?  (Luke 9:46-48, Luke 9:49-50, Luke 9:51-56, Mark 8:33, & many more)
Believers still sin. The only exception was Jesus. Even the saints can and will be decieved by satan. Saints certainly are believers. Perhaps even a higher order of believers.

Quote
Why do people in heaven not desire to sin?
If I take myself as an example teh only conclusion can be that I'm not longer me...

Quote
Why did Jesus need to be sacrificed instead of murdered?
Just the way things are. God decided only sacrificed blood can clean away sins. Blood by murder doesn't. Many things surrounding His crucifixion are the same as regular sheep sacrifice.

Quote
How the sacrifice/resurrection allows people to get a new heart and spirit?
I could be wrong and I'm sure someone will  :punish: me if so; but I think His resurrection is not what gives a new heart. It was His pure life followed by sacrifice that gives a new heart. His resurrection was just an example of what the result of a pure heart is.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

nes

  • Guest
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2011, 06:21:36 PM »
Hi Nes,

I don't have all the answers...

And you still don't have all the answers with 8300 posts??

Personally I think being forgiven and believing are 2 different things.
The wages of sin is, was and always will be death. However Jesus payed that bill. Without that the dead would be very dead for enternity. But that doesn't mean we don't have to believe. UR people thing that everybody will at some point of time believe.

I was talking about when jesus forgave people while he was walking on earth.  What was the point of that if the forgiveness had zero effect on whether or not somebody would go to heaven right after they died? (Matthew 9:2-8, Mark 2:1-12, Luke 5:17-26)

I keep hearing jesus paid that bill, but how exactly was the bill paid?  I'm asking for technical details on this.  I think believing in some doctrine on the bible isn't good enough if you don't even know the technical details of how it works. 

Believers still sin. The only exception was Jesus. Even the saints can and will be decieved by satan. Saints certainly are believers. Perhaps even a higher order of believers.

I agree that believers do still sin.  romans 6:5-7 ESV says We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Just the way things are. God decided only sacrificed blood can clean away sins. Blood by murder doesn't. Many things surrounding His crucifixion are the same as regular sheep sacrifice.

I do not accept the idea that it works just because god deciding sacrificed blood can clean away sins.  God follows the letter of the law so the process needs to legitimately "take away" sins.  By the way, how do you get "crucified"/sacrificed with an animal?  (Hebrews 10:1-4) seems to say that there is a reminder of sins done in the past and animal sacrifice can't make someone "perfect" or cleanse their mind from evil desires so it basically had no effect whether or not someone went to heaven.

I could be wrong and I'm sure someone will  :punish: me if so; but I think His resurrection is not what gives a new heart. It was His pure life followed by sacrifice that gives a new heart. His resurrection was just an example of what the result of a pure heart is.

Romans 6:5-7 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin....

Ezekiel 36:26 says he'll give a new heart and spirit. 
John 3:1-7 says you must be born again.
Hebrews 9:15-17 for there to be a testament requires a death of the testator?

So why do you need to be born again (spiritually) if jesus knew our future sins and took them away?
How were we crucified with him?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 06:31:08 PM by nes »

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13058
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2011, 06:31:34 PM »
Just the way things are. God decided only sacrificed blood can clean away sins. Blood by murder doesn't. Many things surrounding His crucifixion are the same as regular sheep sacrifice.

I do not accept the idea that it works just because god deciding sacrificed blood can clean away sins.  God follows the letter of the law so the process needs to legitimately "take away" sins.
God decided how sin can be taken away by writing the law.
BTW animal sacrifice covered sins and Jesus' sacrifice took it away.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

nes

  • Guest
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2011, 06:42:01 PM »
God decided how sin can be taken away by writing the law.
BTW animal sacrifice covered sins and Jesus' sacrifice took it away.

I think that the law is based on what's right and what's wrong.  What violates the law is sin, which is evil and not love.  So would god declare something evil as love?

Hebrews 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Offline onlytruth

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 486
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2011, 08:34:08 PM »
Hi nes...My take is we attribute a lot of things to Jesus when we weren't supposed to.Jesus was an example of walking in the kingdom and everything that comes with it and this includes,sin having no more effect and the carnel nature being overcome.Jesus in laymen terms tried to explain it and we twisted it so we could rationalize it to our religuos mindsets and traditions.
I'm beginning to see that complete spiritual insite is not for everyone...and God wanted it that way and that is why we are commanded to love above everything else.If you love everything will fall into place,this is what Jesus was trying to say in the sermon mount.
We all try to get closer to God in our own strength(carnel thought) when we all should be resting in our religous endeavours.Ask questions but keep the mill stone from getting to heavy.
So my  :2c: Jesus is the example of how we all will be saved
blessings :icon_king:

nes

  • Guest
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2011, 08:50:43 PM »
Hi nes...My take is we attribute a lot of things to Jesus when we weren't supposed to.Jesus was an example of walking in the kingdom and everything that comes with it and this includes,sin having no more effect and the carnel nature being overcome.Jesus in laymen terms tried to explain it and we twisted it so we could rationalize it to our religuos mindsets and traditions.

I'm twisting scripture in the attempt to make it logically sensible as a whole, but I really do not carry on traditions and try to stay away from religious mindsets. 

I'm beginning to see that complete spiritual insite is not for everyone...and God wanted it that way and that is why we are commanded to love above everything else.If you love everything will fall into place,this is what Jesus was trying to say in the sermon mount.
We all try to get closer to God in our own strength(carnel thought) when we all should be resting in our religous endeavours.Ask questions but keep the mill stone from getting to heavy.
So my  :2c: Jesus is the example of how we all will be saved
blessings :icon_king:

Isaiah 64:6 niv 2011  All of us have become like one who is unclean,
   and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;...


I believe that understanding the process of how jesus "saves" mankind is important to discover the truth on who would go to heaven and who doesn't.  I do have tons of hope in me and do not worry at all about going to hades.  It doesn't matter how many "good" things somebody does, they'll still go to hades for committing evil and anyone with a sliver of evil won't make it to heaven.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2011, 09:29:12 PM »
Jesus' sacrifice took it away.

That is the summary;

works or the law has nothing to do with who is saved.  It's the blood of Christ applied individually to those who call on Jesus for salvation.  The ecclesia will be called by the Holy Spirit to do so in this life, the rest will bow and confess prior to the consummation, when God becomes All in All.  I believe when God looks at the saved individual He sees the applied blood of His Son.  It begins and ends with faith in Him, given by God to believe - all according to His timing.

The focal point is the cross - "with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him"  Ephesians 2:10

http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/ - search Dora Von Assen under authors (GOD'S UNFAILING LOVE REVEALED IN THE CROSS")
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 09:32:53 PM by jabcat »

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13058
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2011, 09:36:41 PM »
Jesus' sacrifice took it away.

That is the summary;

works or the law has nothing to do with who is saved.
I don't think that's entirely right.

Quote
It's the blood of Christ applied individually to those who call on Jesus for salvation.

And how exactly that blood got it's saving power?
Imo because Jesus lived 100% by the original/intended laws. (at least among other things)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2011, 09:38:15 PM »
I'm not talking about the process of how God "set it up".  The bottom line though is, now we're saved by grace not works.

there will be judging of works, but for those who have believed on Jesus as their Savior, the law of works has nothing to do with their salvation.

IMO, anything else is distorting the gospel, mixing law and grace - which Paul, revealing the New Covenant said is a grave mistake.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 09:41:20 PM by jabcat »

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13058
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2011, 09:41:37 PM »
I think you don't understand what I wrote.

How exactly got the New Convenant it's power?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2011, 09:43:04 PM »
I believe Jesus' earthly ministry was primarily to the Jews, dealing with the fulfillment of the OC and ushering in the next age - the age of grace.  Then His death and resurrection is for all mankind.  The Law is fulfilled.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13058
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2011, 09:45:49 PM »
The Law is fulfilled.
That's the answer.
Without (following) the law there would not have been salvation.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2011, 09:47:48 PM »
I agree with the post you just made, while I was writing this;


Yes, I understood.  I was addressing "I don't think this is entirely right" re: "works or law has nothing to do with who is saved".


Then I addressed the rest of it by saying "I'm not talking about the process of how God set it up" - which, IMO, is a different topic.

1)   how we're saved.    by grace, not works or the law

2)  how did the blood get its power, how did God decide/set it up.    I'm not sure, that's a complicated (probably) disputable topic, as I don't believe it's clear in the scriptures.  However, addressing #1, I believe it's very clear in the scriptures, so we shouldn't mix law and grace.   :2c:

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2011, 09:49:16 PM »
Anyway, that's my understanding and strong belief.  I understand many may see it differently.   :bigGrin:

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13058
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2011, 09:59:04 PM »
Yeah, it got a bit messed up you editing and deleting posts when I was at practically the same time replying those messages. :winkgrin:

Again:

There are old covenant laws that tell us how sin is covered by blood sacrifice. It only covered sins. It was not perfect. Main offerings where done just at Passover.
I think it's important to look at the exact rules for a sacrifice. The most obvious is that the lambs must be inspected for 4 days in row prior to the sacrifice. Jesus presented Himself in the Temple during those days. Blood must be sprinkled in the Temple. Judas did that. The animals must be slaughtered at a certain time. When Jesus cried out all the sheep cried out too because they where slaughtered at that time too. Etc.
It's my belief that if Jesus had missed one step of the ritual as commanded by the law He would have been just a nice guy. Not a Saviour. Likely He wouldn't have been resurrected Himself.
So that's why I say without law no salvation.
 :2c:

Quote
"I'm not talking about the process of how God set it up" - which, IMO, is a different topic.
You can't have without the other.
Without the law there would have been no sinners.
But with the law strict following of the law is needed for salvation.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 10:28:35 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2011, 10:14:30 PM »
sorry, maybe i actually didn't fully understand your intent.  Language (semantics, inflection, intent/meaning) is a beautiful thing.   :laughing7:

if you're saying the law had to be fulfilled, perfect works accomplished and that Jesus did so, I understand and agree.

Then the next step is the death and life of The Perfect Sacrifice for our salvation - not our works, but His.    :thumbsup:  how that ties together. 

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13058
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2011, 10:25:28 PM »
No worries James. One day you can return home. Europe (a godess) :icon_jokercolor:
Just like Adam and Eve lived somewhere and where kicked out; so the American left Europe :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2011, 12:01:33 AM »
No worries James. One day you can return home. Europe (a godess) :icon_jokercolor:
Just like Adam and Eve lived somewhere and where kicked out; so the American left Europe :laughing7:

Where does the Cherokee part of me go?   :mshock:

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13058
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2011, 08:59:26 AM »
No worries James. One day you can return home. Europe (a godess) :icon_jokercolor:
Just like Adam and Eve lived somewhere and where kicked out; so the American left Europe :laughing7:

Where does the Cherokee part of me go?   :mshock:
Israel. Indians are Isrealites that crossed the continents during Peleg.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2011, 09:24:32 AM »
Quote from: ww
Without the law there would have been no sinners.

Yeah, you're right, but--

The problem isn't sin.  It's death.
Once Adam brought death upon all creation, God needed to bring in the law to redeem it.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

"impute"

1. To relate to a particular cause or source; attribute the fault or responsibility to: imputed the rocket failure to a faulty gasket; kindly imputed my clumsiness to inexperience.

Greek
G1677
ἐλλογέω
ellogeō
el-log-eh'-o
From G1722 and G3056 (in the sense of account); to reckon in, that is, attribute: - impute, put on account.

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13058
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2011, 11:00:12 AM »
Quote from: ww
Without the law there would have been no sinners.

Yeah, you're right, but--

The problem isn't sin.  It's death.
The problem is sin. Death is the result.

The wages of sin is death.
Without the law there is no sin.

Quote
Once Adam brought death upon all creation, God needed to bring in the law to redeem it.
God brought in more laws.

Adam had (at least) one law. ==> Not eating from that tree.
He broke that law and that brought death.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2011, 11:19:48 AM »
well I toss this about in my head.  Did Adam sin?  Eve was the one in transgression because she was deceived.  So what does this mean--

 Timothy 2:13-15

 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


If God says don't eat from this poison apple or you will die, is that a law or just good advice?

It was death that reigned from Adam to Moses, not sin because sin was not imputed until the law.  If sin is not imputed, who pays the wages?  No debt, no payment.  But still death reigned.  Everyone paid because of Adam.  They couldn't break a law [sin] because there was no law.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 11:33:22 AM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13058
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2011, 11:45:22 AM »
Quote
Did Adam sin?
Yes.

Quote
Eve was the one in transgression because she was deceived.
That has nothing to do with the fact that Adam sinned.

Quote
If God says don't eat from this poison apple or you will die, is that a law or just good advice?
The ten commandments are the ten suggestions?
The laws of Moses also were just good advice.
Advice #1: Don't blaspheme or you will be stoned to death....

Wages of sin is death. Adam died so he has sinned.

Quote
It was death that reigned from Adam to Moses
and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'

Quote
not sin because sin was not imputed until the law.
More sin was imputed as more laws where made.

If Adam did nothing wrong=mis the mark=sin then why he died?
If he did nothing wrong why was he kicked out of the garden?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Taffy

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4167
  • Gender: Male
Re: How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2011, 02:44:26 PM »
well I toss this about in my head.  Did Adam sin?  Eve was the one in transgression because she was deceived.  So what does this mean--

 Timothy 2:13-15

 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


If God says don't eat from this poison apple or you will die, is that a law or just good advice?

It was death that reigned from Adam to Moses, not sin because sin was not imputed until the law.  If sin is not imputed, who pays the wages?  No debt, no payment.  But still death reigned.  Everyone paid because of Adam.  They couldn't break a law [sin] because there was no law.
:icon_flower :HI again Molly  :icon_flower:

Do you think Paul again is making a distinction between  The WOMAN= Church = Eve  to be in subject to the SPIRIT\Man \Christ=  TEACHING A spiritual PRINCIPLE THROUGH The natural\Physical being man and WOMAN---1Ti 2:11  .[/b]  and childbearing doesnt mean NATURAL CHILDREN either Molly--its the Birth of the SON[ Christ]--- as the scripture notes  one moves from a CHILD under LAW to a SON\heir of FAITH-- which for mine is told Here- Behold WOMAN,your" SON""- Marys name means rebellion Right? she too is a FIGURE of the WOMAN known as OLD JERUSALEM, While NEW Jerusalem is the ""MOTHER"of us ALL
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 :icon_flower:


 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection



 1Ti 2:12   But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence


 1Ti 2:13   For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 


 1Ti 2:14   And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 


 1Ti 2:15   Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety

 When the  LORD spoke DO NOT- there was already a law in Motion Molly - for mine a definition of a LAW is- IF ITS VIOLATED OR BROKEN it naturally causes a direct penalty= Cause and effect ---- without a Penalty the law wouldnt be a law Just a pure recommendation
 :icon_flower:
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 03:11:13 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.