Author Topic: How do we know that what Paul says is true?  (Read 3259 times)

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karlt

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How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« on: March 04, 2009, 08:19:56 AM »
Hello,

I am new to this forum, and as I explained in my initial post, I have a question that has troubled me for a long time.

The validity of the message of Universal Salvation is based heavily on the writings of Paul.  Indeed, without many of the passages contained within his writings, the evidence for Universal Salvation contained within the Bible, might be very shaky.  How do we know that Paul knew what he was talking about and that he was a legitimate messenger of God?  Although I believe he fervently believed that Christ was our saviour, could he not have been misguided (in his interpretation that Christ came to save everyone).  May he have been (unknowingly) an instrument of the devil?  What legitimises the thoughts and writings of Paul?

I have found my only hope is through Universal Salvation, but my faith is still weak.  Another site to which I have referred is that of L. Ray Smith, and I especially appreciate that he supports ALL of his teachings with evidence from the Bible.  However, he too (naturally) relies heavily on the writings of Paul.  I would love to converse with Ray about these concerns, but am saddened to learn that he is very ill.

Thank you for taking the time to read this post.  I pray that I will gain some answers here.  Please forgive me if this topic has been covered before.  I have not been able to locate any threads (or other sites on the internet) that address this.

Regards,

Karl


SpiritDriven

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2009, 09:30:07 AM »
It was God who has drawn you here.....

It is all part of you being brought to the relisation of the Truth, to grow in Christ...inside each of us is an acorn of Faith....you are to be a planting of God, to grow into an Oak of righteousness.

We learn about the Soveriegnty of God, that all power and might are in his hands that nobody may stand against him.

What an example God gave us with the Apostle Paul !

Paul declares himself as the foremost of all sinners, that he is a debter to all...consider that for a moment, Paul speaking via the Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ was sent into the World to save Sinners, of which he Paul was the foremost.

The Foremost of all Sinners was not lost to God....there is now nobody who could be lost to God!

That is just for starters.......there is a whole lot more to consider.

I Timothy I

15 Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom am I.

Peace
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 09:39:19 AM by SpiritDriven »

Offline Tony N

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2009, 01:10:01 PM »
Paul met the risen Lord on the road.

The pillars of the early church vouchsafed Paul's unique ministry. Good enough for me.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline chuckt

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2009, 01:22:01 PM »
Greetings,

i think one fact is the way he qouted the old test, and how it runs all through his writings confirming the NEW.

there are many out there whom put doubts in minds about paul, even to the point of calling him the ""antichrist""  :mshock:

dont forget also peter himself confirms pauls writings.

2Pe 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;


 2Pe 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


but of course we have some who say 2 peter is spurious  :dontknow:


So whach ya gonna do? well if pauls are spurious and 2 peter spurious, oh and james too, then heck  God played a good one on us.

still, how would it take away the hope we have in Christ and HIM only   :happy3: :happygrin: :bgdance:


be blessed and superabounding grace to you.

chuckt aka euty  :hithere:
2

LaurieJo

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2009, 04:39:51 PM »
I have found my only hope is through Universal Salvation, but my faith is still weak.

Hi Karl....
Your faith will grow. Studying the scriptures will help you gain a better knowledge of God and His plan.....and as you sincerely continue to want to know God more, you'll begin to see how He is working at transforming you into the image of Christ.

Not every one begins with a knowledge of the scriptures and a revelation of Jesus like Paul....and we can see in the letters that Paul wrote how his faith continued to grow.  As he gained more knowledge of God & His plan, he came to a point where he was so confident that his faith became more than a hope in his heart....his trust that God's word is truth had him writing as if things to come were a fact.

As God transforms us...we come to better understand what Paul meant when He wrote things like, "I've been crucified with Christ...it is no longer I, but Christ in me"....and, "when God, through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood...."---and we also gain a better understanding of Jesus' teachings, the gospel, the OT scriptures, and the writings of the other apostles....and what the will of God is for us in the here and now. :) 

Offline sheila

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2009, 05:09:35 PM »

  1Cor15;8  and LAST OF ALL HE APPREARED TO ME ALSO

  AS ONE PREMATURELY[abnormally] BORN.

   Jesus had told the Pharissee's and Sadducee's that harlots

 and tax-collectors were entering the Kingdom ahead of them.

    [ exercizing faith in the promised seed of God]

   The first will be last and the last,first. He was

 prematurely 'born from Above' into a beleiver of Christ.

The Law covenant was the FIRST COVENANT...but no-one could

enter the Last covenant except by Grace...the covenant of the

 Promised Seed that would bless all nations.Paul signified

  those who had faith in their own righteousness through Law,

  this is the class who appear as 'first' but will enter the

  kingdom 'last'.Paul being 'born' and entering into Faith in

  Christ,caused this premature birth..for He was to be blinded

  until all the gentiles came in..then he enter 'Last'

   But Jesus called Him to be the APOSTLE that would take the

   Goodnews to the Gentiles in his ministry and service.


     Jesus and the Holy spirit testify in behalf of Paul's  ministry.

   The disciples,forgetting that it is God's choice, prematurely

  chose through the casting of lots who would take Judas's

  position. The casting of Lots was a practice under the old

  Law covenant, which was fulfilled in Christ. Just as Jesus

  chose the other 12..He HAD TO CHOOSE THE REPLACEMENT

   And He chose Paul.

    The New Covenant is the Grace and Free Gift of Etrnal LIFE

   to ALL from God through the work of His son. ALL had been

  concluded in disbeleif and sin..so that MERCY could be

  extended to ALL . The Law had condemned all as sinners...

  even the first and foremost positions assigned and held

  by the men under the Law covenant[such as High Priest]

  were concluded as law breakers.Those that sat in the seat of

  Moses[Highest position of Law Covenant were shown as

  lawbreakers when they sat and judged law..for they condemned

  a sinless Jesus Christ...the promised seed sent to Bless all

  nations. They also judged and condemned those whom God

  had forgiven their sins...thus condemning those innocent in

  God's eyes through the Works of His son.


   If He died for the sins of the whole world...then the whole

  world is innocent and atoned for in the eyes of  God...and free

  to accept the undeserved mercy and grace prepared for them.

   Each in his own order.


     Sheila

Offline sven

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2009, 09:25:15 PM »
Quote
May he have been (unknowingly) an instrument of the devil?


some modern Judeo-Christians say so, but the epistles of Paul are more than 50% of the NT, if they are wrong, why should the rest be true?

in the gospel of John and 1 John are also hints on the salvation of all

Theodore of Mopsuestia, an early Christian said according to wikipedia:

Quote
The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of his grace. For he never would have said, 'until thou hast paid the uttermost farthing,' (Luke 12:59) unless we can be released from suffering after having suffered adequately for sin; nor would he have said, 'he shall be beaten with many stripes,' and again, 'he shall be beaten with few stripes,' (Luke 12:48) unless the punishment to be endured for sin will have an end.

Hesekiel says Sodom will be restored, and Peter says God doesn't want anybody to be lost, the Bible further says that Jesus came to save what is lost and that He is the same for the eons or as others translate "forever and ever".

pneuma

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2009, 12:26:07 AM »
Hello,

I am new to this forum, and as I explained in my initial post, I have a question that has troubled me for a long time.

The validity of the message of Universal Salvation is based heavily on the writings of Paul.  Indeed, without many of the passages contained within his writings, the evidence for Universal Salvation contained within the Bible, might be very shaky.  How do we know that Paul knew what he was talking about and that he was a legitimate messenger of God?  Although I believe he fervently believed that Christ was our saviour, could he not have been misguided (in his interpretation that Christ came to save everyone).  May he have been (unknowingly) an instrument of the devil?  What legitimises the thoughts and writings of Paul?

I have found my only hope is through Universal Salvation, but my faith is still weak.  Another site to which I have referred is that of L. Ray Smith, and I especially appreciate that he supports ALL of his teachings with evidence from the Bible.  However, he too (naturally) relies heavily on the writings of Paul.  I would love to converse with Ray about these concerns, but am saddened to learn that he is very ill.

Thank you for taking the time to read this post.  I pray that I will gain some answers here.  Please forgive me if this topic has been covered before.  I have not been able to locate any threads (or other sites on the internet) that address this.

Regards,

Karl



Hi Karl do you beleive the testimony of the 12 apostles of Christ?

Did they not give Paul the right hand of fellowship?

Do you think they would have done that if Paul was a false teacher or in error?

If one is given the right hand of fellowship and they are a false teacher or in error those who gave the right hand of fellowship (the 12) are partakers of Pauls sin or error.

Because these 12 witness gave the right hand of fellowship to Paul shows a 12 fold witness that Paul spoke the truth and is not a false teacher or in error.

Hope this is of some help

God bless

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2009, 02:57:59 AM »
Not that this proves anything, but when I read the book of Romans, it is sooooooooooooo complex and deep and amazing that I don't think a man could or would have been able to write it without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.


I remember being somewhat disturbed many years ago by reading things written by those who questioned Paul's validity.  But after contemplating it, I came to the conclusion that Paul's conversion and ministry were legitimate and make God's plan of salvation all the more amazing.  I appreciate very much Sheila's comments in this thread.

Anne
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

DaughterofDavid

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2009, 07:24:47 AM »
Hello Karlt,

You state..."The validity of the message of Universal Salvation is based heavily on the writings of Paul"...

I can only speak for myself...for me it was not through the New Testament at all that Holy Spirit revealed the plan of the Restoration of all things...the salvation of all....it was actually through the Old Testament.

There are so many types/shadows that point to the salvation of all that it would take up way toooo much room here to post...but I will mention just a few....

First and foremost...the Biblical Law of Redemption and the Law of Jubilee....for the Law of Redemption is prophetic of our Kinsmen Redeemer(Yahshua) paying the price for His kinsmen to be RESTORED to their ESTATE NOW (for whosoever will)....instead of waiting till the Jubilee.

The Law of Jubilee points prophetically to all those that for whatever reason either through ignorance or doubt or rebellion ect....did not enter into the Free gift that their Kinsmen Redeemer paid but now by the continued grace offered through the shed blood of Christ are restored to their inheritance too....there is no other way to be granted the Jubilee except through the cross of christ...no other door...no going around the cross.

We also see the PATTERN of the Salvation of all through the Biblical Feast....Passover (for all were saved...that partook of the blood of the Lamb....Israelites, Egyptians, Strangers, Foreigners...as long as the blood was on the door)

We also see that Sodom and Gomorrah will eventually be restored to its former estate...(purged of sin).

Hope this helps...

Welcome and may you BE Blessed!
DaughterofDavid

bobf

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2009, 07:31:40 AM »
I can only speak for myself...for me it was not through the New Testament at all that Holy Spirit revealed the plan of the Restoration of all things...the salvation of all....it was actually through the Old Testament.

Ditto.

Also, what did Peter say.  He called Paul's writings scriptures.

2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

trettep

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2009, 04:28:01 PM »
Hello,

I am new to this forum, and as I explained in my initial post, I have a question that has troubled me for a long time.

The validity of the message of Universal Salvation is based heavily on the writings of Paul.  Indeed, without many of the passages contained within his writings, the evidence for Universal Salvation contained within the Bible, might be very shaky.  How do we know that Paul knew what he was talking about and that he was a legitimate messenger of God?  Although I believe he fervently believed that Christ was our saviour, could he not have been misguided (in his interpretation that Christ came to save everyone).  May he have been (unknowingly) an instrument of the devil?  What legitimises the thoughts and writings of Paul?

I have found my only hope is through Universal Salvation, but my faith is still weak.  Another site to which I have referred is that of L. Ray Smith, and I especially appreciate that he supports ALL of his teachings with evidence from the Bible.  However, he too (naturally) relies heavily on the writings of Paul.  I would love to converse with Ray about these concerns, but am saddened to learn that he is very ill.

Thank you for taking the time to read this post.  I pray that I will gain some answers here.  Please forgive me if this topic has been covered before.  I have not been able to locate any threads (or other sites on the internet) that address this.

Regards,

Karl

Hi Karl, if you believe that God is ALMIGHTY and does nothing in vain then consider that if God brought each of us into this world then for any of us to destroyed forevermore, or to be tormented ever more would be in vain for God knows the end from the beginning.

The anti-universalist can't explain how God is going to destroy the works of the devil.  For we read:

1Jn 3:8  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

I believe the most effective argument against the preacher of eternal torment is to ask them to show you where sin is being destroyed in their beliefs.   I have asked eternal torment believers if they believe that the sinners in hell are still in rebellion and they tell me they believe they are and will be forever.  Well if that is the case then that rebellion is SIN, thus the SINNING remains in that belief system and is not eradicated.  Therefore, that belief system alone is contrary to the verse above. 

Paul

DaughterofDavid

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2009, 05:12:26 PM »
Bottomline for me...

Christ is the Wisdom and Power of God....

Be led by His Spirit...

For you can know all the apologetics but not communicate what the person that the Lord has brought to you needs to hear in order to understand the truth....

Be Blessed,
DoD

IceDash

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2009, 05:54:07 AM »
Paul and Peter had no education, that what the bible said in Act (I don't remember where) Maybe they write some of it but with the help of the enlist writer sitting next to him.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2009, 10:14:05 AM »
iD,

Just a question because I don't know either....
The have no education. In what?
As in can't read and write?
Or no theological education?

Without having read the verse you mean I guess the last.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2009, 10:31:01 AM »
I thought Paul had some serious education...I'll check it out.
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline jabcat

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2009, 10:33:37 AM »
found this;  Paul was educated by his mother until the age of five. From age five to ten he studied with his father in the Hebrew scriptures and traditional writings. At the same time, being a Roman citizen and living in a Greek and Roman environment, he received a thorough education in the Greek language, history, and culture.

He was sent to Jerusalem at about the age of ten to attend the rabbinical school of Gamaliel, who was the son of Simeon the son of Hillel. Gamaliel was a most eminent rabbi who was mentioned both in the Talmud and in the New Testament (Acts 5:24-40; 22:3). Gamaliel was called Rabban - one of only seven teachers so called. He was a Pharisee....
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline sheila

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2009, 07:42:54 PM »


   Other wittness that confirm Paul spoke truth

    God -Isaaih 29;18,19,24

    Jesus - John 6;37,44,12;32,17;12  Psalms 2;6-8 22;27,28

   82;6-8

   Holy Ghost[Paul]  Romans 5;16-18  11Cor 5;14,18,19

  1Tim2;2-6

   Gabriel- Luke 1;19,2;10,13,14  Ezekiel 34;31 Matthew 18;14

   Michael-Enoch 68;5 ,10;21,22

   

Offline Nathan

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2009, 08:27:55 PM »
found this;  Paul was educated by his mother until the age of five. From age five to ten he studied with his father in the Hebrew scriptures and traditional writings. At the same time, being a Roman citizen and living in a Greek and Roman environment, he received a thorough education in the Greek language, history, and culture.

He was sent to Jerusalem at about the age of ten to attend the rabbinical school of Gamaliel, who was the son of Simeon the son of Hillel. Gamaliel was a most eminent rabbi who was mentioned both in the Talmud and in the New Testament (Acts 5:24-40; 22:3). Gamaliel was called Rabban - one of only seven teachers so called. He was a Pharisee....

No, you're correct Jab . . .Paul was one of the most educated men in Scripture . . .he was actually opposite of Peter in that sense.  But even then, Paul himself said that of all the educational things he learned, he counts it all as dung . . .nothing but a load of pooh . . .  having credentials means nothing . . .in fact, it can become more of an obstacle than anything.  Granted there needs to be order for the body to run smoothly . .but unfortunately, the credentials are flashed as if they were written proof that authority is in the card holder.  I'll take being stupid and anointed over bening smart and dead any day.

IceDash

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2009, 05:29:37 AM »
well then why the in act, the king saw paul and peter having no education:

act 4:13 saying they no ediucation or training, i find that interesting...

martincisneros

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2009, 03:24:11 PM »
well then why the in act, the king saw paul and peter having no education:

act 4:13 saying they no ediucation or training, i find that interesting...
Uh, Paul wasn't converted yet.  Not until chapter 9.  That passage was only talking about Peter and John and it was merely contextually saying that they hadn't attended their seminary in Jerusalem.  But how would anyone spend even a year with Christ Jesus Himself and not be educated????????????

Tim B

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Re: How do we know that what Paul says is true?
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2009, 10:03:14 PM »
Hello,

I am new to this forum, and as I explained in my initial post, I have a question that has troubled me for a long time.

The validity of the message of Universal Salvation is based heavily on the writings of Paul.  Indeed, without many of the passages contained within his writings, the evidence for Universal Salvation contained within the Bible, might be very shaky.  How do we know that Paul knew what he was talking about and that he was a legitimate messenger of God?  Although I believe he fervently believed that Christ was our saviour, could he not have been misguided (in his interpretation that Christ came to save everyone).  May he have been (unknowingly) an instrument of the devil?  What legitimises the thoughts and writings of Paul?

I have found my only hope is through Universal Salvation, but my faith is still weak.  Another site to which I have referred is that of L. Ray Smith, and I especially appreciate that he supports ALL of his teachings with evidence from the Bible.  However, he too (naturally) relies heavily on the writings of Paul.  I would love to converse with Ray about these concerns, but am saddened to learn that he is very ill.

Thank you for taking the time to read this post.  I pray that I will gain some answers here.  Please forgive me if this topic has been covered before.  I have not been able to locate any threads (or other sites on the internet) that address this.

Regards,

Karl



Hi Karl do you beleive the testimony of the 12 apostles of Christ?

Did they not give Paul the right hand of fellowship?

Do you think they would have done that if Paul was a false teacher or in error?

If one is given the right hand of fellowship and they are a false teacher or in error those who gave the right hand of fellowship (the 12) are partakers of Pauls sin or error.

Because these 12 witness gave the right hand of fellowship to Paul shows a 12 fold witness that Paul spoke the truth and is not a false teacher or in error.

Hope this is of some help

God bless

Bingo! Paul researched the accounts of the apostles regarding the resurrection and such, and they taught him. If HE taught universal salvation, you can expect they too taught, at the very least, the same basic message!