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Offline Ryan

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Hitler Arguments
« on: September 13, 2012, 05:31:38 AM »
Sooo i try and talk to the people in my life about how UR makes sense and they seem to always come back with the "(insert bad person here) is in heaven then?"
i Know this topic has been covered to death but it got me thinking from an ET perspective. Now please read the entire thought before you reply because it may get a little terrible but here goes.

If i were an ET'er and hitler killed 6 million (wikipedia #) people who rejected Christ, those 6 million would not have unbelieving children and so less would go to hell for all time as the offspring never existed. Shouldnt the ET'er applaud his actions?

Same goes for Many topics, Yellow turban rebelion, Abortion, etc. Basically anything where many unbelievers were slain by someone of importance in history. I realize this is somewhat grotesque topic so if this makes sense to someone out there could they maybe bring it in to more logical wording? Expound maybe or just tell me the whole thing is hogwash.

Reason I ask is because when people say these things i would like to turn it around if possible.
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Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2012, 05:20:01 PM »
Hitler, just like anybody else, sinned the sins common to man.  I dispute the 6,000,000 number, but let's not dwell on the numbers just now.  Jesus told us that if we hate our brother, we are no better than murderers, yes?  There is a continuum between the best of us, say, John the Baptist, and the worst of us, say Hitler, Stalin (killed far more), Mao (killed far, far more), and Pol Pot.  We UR's are saying that all will be saved IN TIME (that is to say, ultimately).  We are not saying that the monsters among us will waltz into Heaven Scot-free - they will face judgment just like the rest of us.

Otherwise, how will God ever be all in all?  His view of justice and mercy is far more enlightened than ours...
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Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2012, 08:37:15 PM »
AND...
The people we think of as hitler, stalin, etc. will not be the same person they were. The bible says we won't even be able to remember what our life was like on earth. This may be because if sin is not remembered by God, or us, not a lot of a believers life would be memorable and nothing of an unbelievers life.
What about family? Do you think that a child raped or molested by a family member would remember the incident clearly in person. Like Paul says "forgetting that which is past" and our life here on earth will definitely be "past"
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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"
No matter what others may say or write, only the word of God is the word of God.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2012, 08:49:46 PM »
Quote
Do you think that a child raped or molested by a family member would remember the incident clearly in person.
Jesus doesn't even know He was crucified?
Quote
This may be because if sin is not remembered by God
An all knowing God forgets billions of events in human history?


Ded, I think nothing is forgotten. Not remembering merely means nobody keeps nagging about your past sins.
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1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2012, 08:53:32 PM »
I thought (again, I'm not a chapter & verse kind of guy) God told us that He would throw our sins as far away as east is from west, and that they would not be spoken of or even brought to mind.   :dunno2: :dontknow: :dunno2:   :Chinscratch:
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Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2012, 11:11:56 PM »
exactly what I was trying to say Lazarus.
and whitewings, Jesus is not a common sinner to forget being crucified, The crucifixion is the main event of history. We are only going to remember what God allows us to and I don't believe we will even want to remember or be reminded of our sins once we've been made pure.
An all knowing God forgets nothing of course. I was referring to us everyday saints/sinners
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 11:17:03 PM by ded2daworld »
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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"
No matter what others may say or write, only the word of God is the word of God.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2012, 11:34:17 PM »
Quote from: ded2daworld on September 13, 2012, 11:11:56 PM
and whitewings, Jesus is not a common sinner to forget being crucified,
But He was crucified by common sinners.
Many in the Bible are common sinners. Does that mean the Bible will be altered to hide past sins?
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1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2012, 11:55:33 PM »
When the substance of the Kingdom comes in, hope and faith will no longer be needed.

When the Law is written on and in our hearts, the Bible will no longer be needed.

Only Love will remain. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
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Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2012, 03:23:38 AM »
The Bible is the word of God Jesus is the word made flesh. Lazarus is right again.
No need for Bible (the Word) cuz we will fully know him.
God handles people one on one. Before cleansing and purifying, IMO, we will well remember our own sins but not that of others.
We must give an account of our own sins, not tell God how we think he should handle someone else's
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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"
No matter what others may say or write, only the word of God is the word of God.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2012, 03:38:26 AM »
Quote from: ded2daworld on September 14, 2012, 03:23:38 AM

We must give an account of our own sins, not tell God how we think he should handle someone else's

 :iagree:Thus, we come into right relation to God and others. :friendstu:
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Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline Ryan

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2012, 03:45:53 AM »
I dont think my point was received . I know that the person they were in this life they wont be when they believe as the sins be washed away, and i understand that we shouldnt worry about Gods judgement of others. i was trying to get across that, and this is to the extreme but in the thought process of a believer in eternal damnation: Unbelievers slaying unbelievers = less people in eternal damnation. basically bad people killing bad people = good (in an ET's mind). I know a few may turn away from there herediary ways and towards Christ but i dont think that happens as often as we like to think.
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Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2012, 03:59:36 AM »
I see where you are going with this, and given hell, it may work:  killing the unsaved to hold back even more of them going to hell.  It reminds me of that old bumper sticker, "Speed on brother, hell ain't half full yet!"  A sort of feedback loop.  Thanks be to God that is not the case, no, it's a case of:

Heaven, yes  :banana:

Hell, no!  :doh:
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Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline Ryan

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2012, 07:13:25 AM »
yeah, thank the Lord it is not. makes me think that some of the shootings, and possibly even some of the inquisition could be justified in there minds as correct which is rdiculous but honestly any way of saving someone from eternal damnation in everlasting conscious torment may seem worth it and if one cant convert the person this would be the only other alternative.
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Offline reFORMer

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2012, 08:47:53 AM »
In WWII Germany killed 6,000,000 Jews and 7,000,000 Christians according to Max Dimot (or Dimont) in God, Jews, and History.  That's 1.2 Christians for every 1 Jew.  A professor at a Seminary, Veith (I hope the "e" and "i" are in the right order,) but he wrote Modern Fascism, a short book that explains the nature of Nazi philosophy very well, making so much more understandable many things associated with those ideas.
_________________________________________

It's not so much about "former things not being remembered, or brought into mind."  It is the glory that's coming to us which will cause this forgetting.  The way Joseph, that is, "Increase(r)" happens results in Ephraim and Manasseh, "Doubly Fruitful" and "Forgetfulness"

Gen 4151-52 (KJV):  [51] And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: For God, [said he], hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house. [52] And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.

It is said God casts our sins in His "Sea of Forgetfulness."  He certainly says He willfully refuses to remember our sins against us.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 08:54:11 AM by reFORMer »
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Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2012, 04:35:21 PM »
Belief in ET is why Susan Smith drowned her five young children.
According to her own testimony she believed that if they died before reaching the "age of accountability" they would go to heaven. Otherwise, 90% chance they would grow up, reject Christ, and go to hell.
The "age of accountability" was made up by ET'ers because even they can't stand the thought of God torturing children.
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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"
No matter what others may say or write, only the word of God is the word of God.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2012, 04:39:58 PM »
Happily, her children will go to heaven.  She will too, but let's hope she avoids the LoF... :sigh:

The eternal torture belief has spun off a lot of evil in this world, but what evil can be laid against universalism?
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Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2012, 04:44:06 PM »
Quote from: ded2daworld on September 14, 2012, 04:35:21 PM
Belief in ET is why Susan Smith drowned her five young children.
According to her own testimony she believed that if they died before reaching the "age of accountability" they would go to heaven. Otherwise, 90% chance they would grow up, reject Christ, and go to hell.
The "age of accountability" was made up by ET'ers because even they can't stand the thought of God torturing children.
That's why Jesus is outclassed by abortian clinics.
Jesus save max. 10%
Abortion clinics 100%

Can't beat sound ET logic  :doh:
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1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2012, 04:47:05 PM »
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 04:44:06 PM
Quote from: ded2daworld on September 14, 2012, 04:35:21 PM
Belief in ET is why Susan Smith drowned her five young children.
According to her own testimony she believed that if they died before reaching the "age of accountability" they would go to heaven. Otherwise, 90% chance they would grow up, reject Christ, and go to hell.
The "age of accountability" was made up by ET'ers because even they can't stand the thought of God torturing children.
That's why Jesus is outclassed by abortian clinics.
Jesus save max. 10%
Abortion clinics 100%

Can't beat sound ET logic  :doh:

 :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I can only hope that statement was facetious.
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Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2012, 04:54:39 PM »
Not really, it's just a conclusion from:
Quote from: ded
Belief in ET is why Susan Smith drowned her five young children.
According to her own testimony she believed that if they died before reaching the "age of accountability" they would go to heaven. Otherwise, 90% chance they would grow up, reject Christ, and go to hell.
When a woman get pregnant there is a 10% change the child ends up in heaven.
When that same woman goes to a clinic the baby goes to heaven with 100% certainty.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2012, 04:55:39 PM »
  even 'common" sinners become holy when used in the service of the Lord. Zechariah 14;21   on that day 'Holy to the Lord" will be inscribed

  on the bells of the horses[man's flesh holy when spirit poured out on it]  and the cooking pots in the Lord's house will be like the sacred

  bowls in front of the altar.  every pot in Judah and Jerusalem will be holy to the Lord....can anyone say...quit calling unclean what the Lord has cleansed
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Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2012, 07:34:45 PM »
Correct Sheila. And God used Pharoah by hardening his heart and Nebuchednezzer and I believe God uses Satan to acheive his purposes. ET'ers kinda make it look like the devil is stronger than God when it comes to salvation.
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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"
No matter what others may say or write, only the word of God is the word of God.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2012, 12:01:15 AM »
Quote from: ded2daworld on September 14, 2012, 07:34:45 PM
Correct Sheila. And God used Pharoah by hardening his heart and Nebuchednezzer and I believe God uses Satan to acheive his purposes. ET'ers kinda make it look like the devil is stronger than God when it comes to salvation.

Yes  :iagree: and that's the ultimate issue, the sovereignty of God.  When you realise that God is absolutely sovereign, then you realise that He keeps Satan on a short leash.  Then at some point you realise that ET believers put Satan on an equal footing with God (without realising it) which is what Satan wanted.  Therefore, it must be a false belief.
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Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline CHB

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2012, 12:54:23 AM »
Quote from: ded2daworld on September 14, 2012, 07:34:45 PM
Correct Sheila. And God used Pharoah by hardening his heart and Nebuchednezzer and I believe God uses Satan to acheive his purposes. ET'ers kinda make it look like the devil is stronger than God when it comes to salvation.

Yes, I had a Baptist preacher tell me that Satan was more powerful than God. I said, "WHAT"!!! He kinda looked bewildered after he realized what he had said, and my reaction to it.

CHB
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Offline Ryan

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2012, 03:03:25 AM »
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 04:44:06 PM
Quote from: ded2daworld on September 14, 2012, 04:35:21 PM
Belief in ET is why Susan Smith drowned her five young children.
According to her own testimony she believed that if they died before reaching the "age of accountability" they would go to heaven. Otherwise, 90% chance they would grow up, reject Christ, and go to hell.
The "age of accountability" was made up by ET'ers because even they can't stand the thought of God torturing children.
That's why Jesus is outclassed by abortian clinics.
Jesus save max. 10%
Abortion clinics 100%

Can't beat sound ET logic  :doh:
:laugh: ded2daworld that was exactly what i was looking for. Of course its completely grotesque and makes zero sense unless eternal torment exists. And they wonder why there are so many athiests...
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Offline lomarah

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Re: Hitler Arguments
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2012, 03:43:24 AM »
Quote from: ded2daworld on September 14, 2012, 04:35:21 PM
Belief in ET is why Susan Smith drowned her five young children.
According to her own testimony she believed that if they died before reaching the "age of accountability" they would go to heaven. Otherwise, 90% chance they would grow up, reject Christ, and go to hell.
The "age of accountability" was made up by ET'ers because even they can't stand the thought of God torturing children.

That is so sad and makes me horribly angry at the spirit that fed her those lies. Once she gets freed from the lies and realizes her mistake she is going to have so much regret. I was tormented by similar thoughts when my daughter was born. It was what drove me on my search for the truth.

Now if her story doesn't convince a person that ET is a doctrine of demons I don't know what else could.
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