Hello!

[Taffy]

Honestly, it is the contrast in scripture that I find that keeps me hunting within it even more.


Ja 2:18 But someone will be declaring,  "You'  have faith and I'  have works."  Show me your faith apart from the works and I'  shall be showing you my *faith by my works.

Yup
His Works In us are a LABOUR of Love

[Nathan]

Hebrews 4 . . .the REST chapter
9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

[Shadowland]

Rom 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Some People just can't perceive where another person is coming from.  I myself have a hard time getting others to understand what I am saying.

Don't worry about what others can't perceive....it is their loss when they won't take any/many route/s at all to understand. Just let it go....must be over their heads.  Maybe a month or year from now they will get what it was.

And Hello to you!

God's love bless you!

[YoungYuni]

hiya!

Why is my thread being used to discuss free will? That was not the intent of this post, neither do I appreciate it being ade the focus.

I guess I don't understand the reason it has gone down this path.

 

[bobf]

A mouse within a maze is not free to cross the walls that make the paths in the maze but the mouse is free to go down wrong paths within the maze.  Of course sometimes, when the mouse is completely lost and has not ventured anywhere close to the path to the cheese I could grab the mouse and prompt it to go the correct way.   

That is how I see scripture and the relationship God has with mans will, and it definatly is how my life has went and even my wife understands that aspect of our life.   You can call it what you like, but the case you make above is not what I am saying.

That is close is how I see it too except I believe that God is more than occaisionlly prompting or interacting with the maze.  I believe God is always prompting us and setting up the maze of choices with full knowlege of my will and full foreknowlege of which path I will choose at each juncture.  Therefore I am always on the exact path intended and determined by God and I am always on the exact path chosen and determined by my will.  It's not an either / or proposition.

BTW I disagee with another post that seemed to imply that God overrode pharoah's free will.  I do not believe God overrode pharoah's will or ability to choose at any point.  Pharoah's choices were as free or unfree as any normal choices.  The hardening of pharoah's heart was in complete accord with pharoah's choosing.

As far CHB's use of the term "total sovereignity" it should not be viewed as offensive any more than the term "hyper soveriegninty" is.  Both terms simply acknowlege that there is a difference in how far we go with God's sovereignity and assign a label to that difference.

[bobf]

hiya!

Why is my thread being used to discuss free will? That was not the intent of this post, neither do I appreciate it being ade the focus.

I guess I don't understand the reason it has gone down this path.

 

Oops...  sorry.   I guess it's either because God ordained it, or because we freely chose to hijack your thread, or both.   

[Nathan]

Nice recovery there.

[Molly]

[Taffy]

[Paul Hazelwood]

 

[YoungYuni]

hiya!

Why is my thread being used to discuss free will? That was not the intent of this post, neither do I appreciate it being ade the focus.

I guess I don't understand the reason it has gone down this path.

 

Oops...  sorry.   I guess it's either because God ordained it, or because we freely chose to hijack your thread, or both.   

LOL! BobF

In the Conduct, Etiquette and Courtesy section of the rules within this forum states:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2695.0

Let us also try and keep to the OP (original post) topic.

Do not hijack threads.  Stay on topic

If something is going to take the thread off topic, start a new thread.

So I know it most definitely is free-will.

 

Though I would appreciate that people would actually take the time to listen to each other, I am very confused by some of the reasons behind some actions people take especially when I asked many times that my thread not be used for a free will debate.

 

[Taffy]

Hi YY
I Think Your Point has been Made, Can we drop it now.

Taffy

[YoungYuni]

Hiya,

After having dealing with this from the world, I have decided I will not deal with it here.

I have decided this is my last post.

I am new here, but already can tell that this is not where I belong.

I apologize for any hurtful offense that may have come because of my arrival here. There is no purpose to have discussions with people who have no reason to listen to each other.

Many here may have discovered the reality of salvation is for all mankind, but such knowledge is useless if nobody loves each other.

There are probably plenty of other places to have these discussions, but it is obvious that many in this forum have an agenda.

I empathized for those who thought they could find fellowship or discussion with like-minded individuals only to find themselves that many do not actually seek fellowship or gainful discussion.

May God bless those who have their hearts set on doing and thinking on the things which are good and wholesome and godly.

  

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul...

You know... I find it interesting that those who believe in "free will" often get really uptight or upset... when confronted by those who believe in Complete Divine Sovereignty...  I wonder why this is?  Something to think about... 

Hi there WillieH,

I do think about that and the answer is that a persons emotional reaction to anything is irrevalent to it's truth.

 

I can agree with that, although, emotion is often a response that emerges from, and of one, ...in an insecure position...

If one is confident in the Lord in where one stands, and has founded that place BY HIM, with HIS WORD,  ...how may another easily shake that place?   

There was admittedly a day (many of them for that matter  ), in which I, on a personal level, had not found establishment for what I believe, by MY OWN personal study and research of God's WORD...  rather, I had gained via offering my ears to hearsay, or invested a respect in another that what he/she was saying was actually so...  Since I went away from that environment (church) in early 2001, to an EXTREMELY ISOLATED place (for 3 months) called Dutch Harbor, Alaska...  Some great revelations took place...

First, it really revealed the true state of concern and love, the "brothers and sisters" of my church (of which we had been members almost 20yrs) had for my wife and I... which was literally NON EXISTANT... revealing their "LOVE" for what it was... SHALLOW, unsupportive, and basically anything but LOVE ... 

As much as this really "hurt"... it was part of the STRENGTH that GOD was giving to us in this moment... for only HE was there to LOVE us...

Second, with much time on my hands, I began to research the teachings which I found in question (such as HELL, ET, Eternal Separation, etc.) in the "church" doctrine... and

Third, the isolation gave me an opportunity to see clearly that which was before me in Scripture without anyone or any entity, presenting OUTSIDE information to distort it...

In the last 7.75 years of a 33 year walk... I have gained, through a dedicated, continuous and diligent search (that is a daily on-going matter)... a place where discussions of such beliefs I find contrary as, ..."free will", trinity, rapture, Eternal Separation from God, etc... does not shake me emotionally whatsoever, ...For the foundation I have to stand upon is the Rock, without necessitating the need for making any Additions, Subtractions, or Assumptions... to implement, establish or embellish that stand. 

Whether intentional or not, the question you propose is most often asked only to cast the emotional light of favor onto a persons own beliefs rather than remain within the factual confines of scripture.

There have been so many verses posted which not only NOTE the Sovereignty, but ESTABLISH mans course as already done...

THAT is the "confines" of Scripture... When someone is set in a particular mindset, they will NOT recognize what Scripture SAYS, rather, they will garnish it with their mindset in order to maintain that mindset...

Reading Holy writings does NOT enable understanding... only the SPIRITUAL revelation of the TRUTH, performed by GOD in the heart of the individual, shall avail it... 

So even if argued from an ILLOGICAL position, the TRUTH of a given premise will still, NOT be established in the UNREVEALED mind... even after sufficient proofs which debunk that "illogical" stance have been adaquately presented.

There are people who do not believe in any kind of freedom of the will that will get uptight at those who believe there is.  Does that mean by your own words that you should now think about that?

I do not ever get upset at anyone who does not align with my observations... It is in misbehavioral name calling or personal attack that irritation will arise in anyone... regardless of the TRUTH of the discussion...

It is not up to me to reveal anything to anyone... it is my duty to present that which I believe, and then leave it in God's hands to either WORK to change my observation's incorrect position, or to use that which I have presented to, in part move another into the light...

These kinds of reactions in human beings happen all the time in any situation you can muster up.

Paul... I don't see our discussions as personal... I see them as GOD working in all of us, sanding the edges, molding the framework of our understanding...  It is as I just said, when some shall emotionally fire the arrows of hurt toward another because their beloved belief has been assaulted, ...often results in the breakdowns we have with one another at times...

The Lord said that some would LOVE the DARKNESS more than the LIGHT... and because that DARKNESS is BELOVED, its LOVERS shall come to its aid in defense of it... often emotionally...

I do not say this to offend, only to propose a view for the readers to contemplate.

In the same spirit of inoffense, have I said, what I just did... 

peacE...
willieH