Author Topic: Hello!  (Read 6917 times)

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YoungYuni

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2008, 01:04:05 AM »
Hiya!

I believe everyone's discussion is good and all, though the issue is not free will or Gods Sovereignty.

My intent of my post was to make it fully known how frustrating it is to have someone's assumptions attributed as my belief.

Something which I would expect some respect and courtesy concerning.

If people continue to do that, it comes to a point where I want nothing to do with them.

How beneficial is that in a place where we are supposed to come together?

 :mblush: :mshock:

Offline willieH

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2008, 10:33:03 PM »
willieH: Hi Martin... :hithere:

As you have herein been and ADVOCATE for the "FREE WILL of men",... :yes:

I am herein noted as an ADVOCATE for the OPPOSITE...  :cloud9:

I decided to see if the Bible said anything about freewill, simply from the standpoint of the Concordance.  And here's what I found.  In the KJV these terms are used and here's how many times they're used:

Strong's Concordance says that the KJV uses the word "free" 58 times, freewill 17 times, freed 2 times, freely 16 times, freewoman 3 times, selfwill is used 1 time, selfwilled is used 2 times, and liberty is used 27 times.  I got lazy on counting out the word "will" so I asked Biblegateway.com how many times "will" is used and it counted 'em up as 2908 times, willing is used 54 times, willeth is used 1 time, wilt is 208 times, and would is used 437 times.

These stats are meaningless unless the term is used IN CONJUNCTION with MAN's WILL as "FREE"...  The words N'DAB, N'DABAH, and NEDAB are all used concerning offerings... not SPECIFICALLY referring to the WILL of MAN, engaged in his on-going CHOOSING...

To name the appearance of words such as... FREE, WILL, WILLETH, WILT, WOULD, etc... is irrelevant unless they are used to the STATE of the WILL of MAN as FREE...

In order to establish FREE WILL as a teaching, it must be found and noted as a TEACHING of THE WORD...

My best and STRONGEST case is made in the life of CHRIST, concerning the ABSENCE of "FREE WILL" in men... CHRIST was a MAN (1 Tim 2:5)

His ENTIRE LIFE, was found in subjection, NOT to his own "free will" rather, was lived according to the WILL of YHVH...

In other words, He had no "free will" of His own, his life was DECLARED by GOD in Scripture, and then lived as the SCRIPTURE (in EVERLASTING TERMS), notes it to be lived ...the DECLARATION of GOD...

In that life CHRIST was never found doing other than the WILL of YHVH which life found Him to be FREE of SIN at its conclusion...   

Whereas the "WILL" of MEN, takes them into SIN (James 1:14), which is a BONDAGE from which they must be DELIVERED by a SAVIOR... Such a WILL cannot be considered FREE for it's manifestation produces ENSLAVEMENT to SIN.  :dontknow:

JESUS walked according to that which was PROPHECIED of Him... and His "WILL" did not supercede the PROPHECY... He did NOT have the OPTION to do otherwise, ...and in the most PERTINENT sense, ...was BOUND to walk by those PROPHECIES, to the LETTER...  By walking in that COMPLETE subjection (absent of "His will" as a man) to that which YHVH mapped out in Scripture... He FULFILLED them, and established the FREEDOM of GOD'S WILL in doing so...

MEN who do otherwise in life, and are also "mapped out" by YHVH in Scripture, ... however CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF (bondage)... and are found FULFILLING the Scriptures as well, which note "ALL HAVE SINNED and COME SHORT of the glory of GOD"... as well as "NONE DOETH GOOD, no... NOT ONE"!  :dontknow:

Thereby verifying the difference between a WILL which is FREE (CHRIST) and which shall REIGN FOREVER... and a WILL which is IN BONDAGE to ITSELF (that of MEN), which shall be DISSOLVED within and BY the conclusion of the course of TIME... (before the LAST DAY ends)... :yes:

Of the 17 times that "FREEWILL" is used in the WORD, 16 of them are connected with OFFERING in their context - SPECIFICALLY on a voluntary basis... (#5071 N'DABAH - from #5068 NADAB)

The ONLY other one used is the word #H5069 - N'DAB... which specifically means FREEWILL offering...

NONE of these discuss in their context, or even DENOTE the WILL of MEN... nor do they define what "CHOICE" is, as done by MEN...

Quote
God overrides our free will when it's in our best interests or when it's in the best interests of His own glory, or where it relates to a Covenant issue that He's keeping to the thousandth generation, as when He turns the heart of the king/prime minister/president where He wishes.
 

Where in Scripture is this stated Martin?  Please note where what you state above in BLUE is said in the WORD of GOD...  :dontknow:

This is NOT what Scripture states about the WILL of man at all...

Scripture states the HEART ("will") is DESPARATELY WICKED (Jer 17:9), and that NO MAN is ABLE (of his "will") to come to CHRIST (John 6:44), without the aid of YHVH...

It also states that GOD is the one which brings about MERCY in each, and in that process He denotes the FAULTS of MEN to be manifest, as the POTTER decides (Rom 9:21)  HE MAKES one vessel of the SAME LUMP, unto honor, and HE MAKES another unto DISHONOR...

The CLAY does not MAKE ITSELF (via its "will")... ANYTHING honorable, or dishonorable!  It is the Creation of YHVH that makes one vessel DISHONORABLE and the other HONORABLE...

Quote
But not much besides.  It's pretty much our own decision and varying degrees of blindness that determines whether or not our socks are matching that we're wearing today.  Most of the time, His overriding of someone's will winds up being about His providing hand to someone that's keeping Covenant with Him, or at least on their knees before Him pushing past every demonic obstacle in prayer.  What He did with Pharaoh was in the behalf of Israel, what He did with Christ Jesus was about our provisions, etc., etc.
 

Again this is the "devising" that men do via choice which is NOTED they would do... Those choices are according to the DECLARATION of YHVH, done before the Creation...

peacE...
willieH    :skittles:

martincisneros

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2008, 10:42:09 PM »
I'm not advocating anything.  I have nothing to defend of what I read in the Word.

Offline willieH

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2008, 02:19:07 AM »
willieH: Hi Martin...  :hithere:

Quote from: martincisneros on December 11, 2008, 03:42:09 PM
I'm not advocating anything.  I have nothing to defend of what I read in the Word.

  :mblush: Sorry if I misunderstood your position bro... no offense was intended neither "defense" either!    :bigGrin:

Seemed by the wordings and effort you made, that you are in strong support of FREE WILL...

And might I add, that you are quite correct... There is no need for any of us to "defend" what we believe... all we need to do is study, find foundation for that which we believe, and then stand by that belief, until such time GOD should make changes in it, as we continue to search...   :thumbsup:

--------------------------
accidental "edit" willi, I don't think anything was actually changed  :mblush:
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 09:45:43 AM by jabcat »

Offline Molly

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2008, 02:53:45 AM »
Galatians 4:30
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2008, 02:56:55 AM »
Quote
And might I add, that you are quite correct... There is no need for any of us to "defend" what we believe... all we need to do is study, find foundation for that which we believe, and then stand by that belief, until such time GOD should make changes in it, as we continue to search... 

 :thumbsup:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

martincisneros

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2008, 02:57:14 AM »
Hi WillieH,

I do believe in free will, but don't have anything that I need to prove on finer points like that 'cause if you never "got it" (and vice versa) it could simply be a matter of where we fit in the Body.  God could literally be telling me to go and pick out how many stones I want for my Goliath and all of his brothers, while He could literally be telling you nothing more than "Be still and know that I AM God."  In which case, beyond the "Scriptural proofs" on either side of the issue, if it's not where God has us or wants us, then we're spitting in the wind even if both of us ever sorta got where the other was coming from.  But if it wasn't our position in the Body where that knowledge would be the most profitable, then I'd be trying to teach a foot how to help me blow my nose or my nose how to clean my butt. 

I [genuinely] wouldn't be pleased with either result if the lesson were fully comprehended by the other part of the Body.  Might be a neat trick for a late night cable television program, where they'd pay someone a billion dollars to do it just once, but not for practical, daily life.  I can completely disagree with you, Tony N., and others on the Sovereignty of God being taken that far, while you could disagree about Choice being in your hands that far and all of us be 100% right depending on how Christ is constructing the Body.  Each of us is fully confident -- it ought to be obvious by now -- that we've got Scriptural authority for what we're asserting even if we haven't fully proven anything to someone with a so-called opposing view point.  The lips on my face don't need to know how my butt does certain things and vice versa, otherwise there's hopeless and even grotesque confusion.

Between what you've just said and something that was said on the mod board, I've thought of a new topic, but need a minute to cool my jets [on wanting to go there] and think through if it's appropriate for the Tentmaker Forum and if so then the figuring out of where to start the thread.  If it's too gray area on appropriateness for the forum, I'm posting this 'cause I'll likely be PMing quite a few folks for feedback about it if I feel any "bleh!" about going there on the boards.  My gray area on it is that for those without self control it can lead to inappropriate textual criticism for this forum.  It'll be on the ML or CLG boards if I decide to go ahead.

Offline Molly

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2008, 03:13:39 AM »
Did you know that glory is a verb?

Psalm 63:11
But the king shall rejoice in God; every one that sweareth by him shall glory: but the mouth of them that speak lies shall be stopped.


"shall glory"

H1984
הלל
hâlal
haw-lal'
A primitive root; to be clear (originally of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show; to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively to celebrate; also to stultify: - (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 03:15:28 AM by Molly »

Offline willieH

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #58 on: December 12, 2008, 03:29:17 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul...  :dsunny:

Col 1:18 And He'  is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn outfrom among the dead, that in all He'  may be becoming first,


As far as the actual word Sovereign, correct, it is not in scripture,  the CLV gets it from

G746  arche  ar-khay'

from G756;

(properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various
applications of order, time, place, or rank):--beginning, corner, (at the, the)
first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

"Sovereignty" is an english word... :yes:  and it's definition carries within it a COMPLETENESS of POWER...

FYI, the Word "ALMIGHTY" ( translated in NT) in the Greek -- #G3841 carries within its definition, SOVEREIGNTY...

The WORD is translated from Hebrew and Greek, by those who observe the Original language Words, and then endeavor to transfer that word from Hebrew or Greek to its best or most accomodating ENGLISH word...  :yes:

The word ALMIGHTY (Hebrew: #H7706 SHADDAY / Greek: #G3841 PANTOKRATOR) ...is probably the best descriptive ENGLISH word which equates to SOVEREIGNTY...

The English word ALMIGHTY means that "ALL MIGHT" encompassed in whatever the word is describing (Rom 13:1), and finds its "power" emanating from that same entity... If ALL MIGHT is determined emerging from the same, single source, then SOVEREIGNTY also appears... for NO MIGHT is found originating in any other source...

In other words... If ALL THINGS emerge from and return to, the same source (which they do - Col 1:16)... and ALL THINGS thereby have beginning and end in that source (Rev 1:8)... then the MIGHT, ORIGIN and DESTINY in and of ALL THINGS are founded upon the SAME foundation... (1 Cor 3:11)

peacE...
willieH    :skittles:
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 08:07:22 AM by willieH »

YoungYuni

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #59 on: December 12, 2008, 04:06:21 AM »
Hiya!

???????????????????????????????????????

 :cloud9:

Offline willieH

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2008, 04:37:51 AM »
willieH: Hi Martin... :dsunny:

Hi WillieH,

I do believe in free will, but don't have anything that I need to prove on finer points like that 'cause if you never "got it" (and vice versa) it could simply be a matter of where we fit in the Body.  God could literally be telling me to go and pick out how many stones I want for my Goliath and all of his brothers, while He could literally be telling you nothing more than "Be still and know that I AM God."  In which case, beyond the "Scriptural proofs" on either side of the issue, if it's not where God has us or wants us, then we're spitting in the wind even if both of us ever sorta got where the other was coming from.  But if it wasn't our position in the Body where that knowledge would be the most profitable, then I'd be trying to teach a foot how to help me blow my nose or my nose how to clean my butt. 

I [genuinely] wouldn't be pleased with either result if the lesson were fully comprehended by the other part of the Body.  Might be a neat trick for a late night cable television program, where they'd pay someone a billion dollars to do it just once, but not for practical, daily life.  I can completely disagree with you, Tony N., and others on the Sovereignty of God being taken that far, while you could disagree about Choice being in your hands that far and all of us be 100% right depending on how Christ is constructing the Body.  Each of us is fully confident -- it ought to be obvious by now -- that we've got Scriptural authority for what we're asserting even if we haven't fully proven anything to someone with a so-called opposing view point.  The lips on my face don't need to know how my butt does certain things and vice versa, otherwise there's hopeless and even grotesque confusion.

I haven't seen any SCRIPTURAL proof of FREE WILL posted in any of the discussions... CHOICE does not indicate the doctrine of FREE WILL... if this were so it can be claimed that flies, ants, fish, cats and dogs for goodness sake... all have FREE WILL, because they ALL "choose" as they move through life...

FREE WILL is proposing that GOD's WILL can be overidden by a created entity... I do not see this is so... for to override the WILL of GOD, means that He can no longer claim to be ALMIGHTY... for a "MIGHT" outside Him, ...has "FREELY" NEGATED of itself, the doings of GOD... :mnah:

I guess we have what we have...

I can explain UR to an ET person till I'm blue in the face, and they will NEVER, "get it" unless GOD opens their eyes to it...  I simply see this difference being the same kind of animal! (FREE WILL vs SOVEREIGNTY)

Quote
Between what you've just said and something that was said on the mod board, I've thought of a new topic, but need a minute to cool my jets [on wanting to go there] and think through if it's appropriate for the Tentmaker Forum and if so then the figuring out of where to start the thread.  If it's too gray area on appropriateness for the forum, I'm posting this 'cause I'll likely be PMing quite a few folks for feedback about it if I feel any "bleh!" about going there on the boards.  My gray area on it is that for those without self control it can lead to inappropriate textual criticism for this forum.  It'll be on the ML or CLG boards if I decide to go ahead.

You know... I find it interesting that those who believe in "free will" often get really uptight or upset... when confronted by those who believe in Complete Divine Sovereignty...  I wonder why this is?  Something to think about...  :Chinscratch:

I have no more problem with people believing they have "FREE WILL", than do I have with ET or HELL or any other teaching folks believe...  nor do I think that there shall ever be large numbers that really "get" any given "truth"... and thereby believe that SMALL numbers will prevail in ALL facets of TRUTH...

Those "numbers" were indicated by the Savior, for JESUS indicated that MANY would come in His name and decieve MANY... He did not say that, FEW would come in His name and decieve a FEW...  :dontknow:

MANY believe ET... FEW believe UR... MANY believe FREE WILL, FEW believe CDS... MANY believe Satan is a BEING, FEW believe it is the adversity of mans will... MANY believe in SALVATION of FEW, FEW believe in COMPLETE Salvation...

These things, must be so...  :sigh:

To know any of the "TRUTH" is not our decision... :mnah:

All that shall know it is WRITTEN and DECLARED...  and not ONE shall know any facet of truth, that has not been DECLARED they should KNOW it from the foundation of the World... (Eph 1:11)  Pre-destination is not for ONE man and not another... that would declare GOD as PARTIAL...

ALL THINGS begin and end in CHRIST, which is PREDESTINATION... for ALL THINGS...

Because we, as FINITES cannot or will not SEE, a given thing as PREDESTINED, does not mean it is not present...  as the SIGHT is given to some to SEE (Gentiles for instance), others it is NOT (Jews for instance)...

It is all part of the CONCLUSION of ALL THINGS... Both GOOD and EVIL, sight and blindness, death and life, etc...

ALL are going to happen according to the WILL of GOD which worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL (not ours)

That doctrinal fallacies exist and shall unto the end, is part of the plan of GOD in reconciling them to TRUTH... thereby GLORIFYING that reconciliative effort...

I wish you peace will robinson,  :mblush: ...er I mean Martin!  :laughing7:

peacE...
willieH    :skittles:

martincisneros

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2008, 05:49:27 AM »
I wish you peace will robinson,  :mblush: ...er I mean Martin!  :laughing7:
Clym Yeobright maybe, but not Will Robinson.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2008, 09:41:13 AM »

And might I add, that you are quite correct... There is no need for any of us to "defend" what we believe... all we need to do is study, find foundation for that which we believe, and then stand by that belief, until such time GOD should make changes in it, as we continue to search...   :thumbsup:


Wow, what an excellent summary statement and transitional opportunity  :whistleshake:.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline CHB

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2008, 03:15:21 PM »

Wow!!! willie, you sure do have a way of explaining things that I will never have.  Great posts. Thanks  :HeartThrob:  :thumbsup:

CHB

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2008, 04:03:55 PM »
I haven't seen any SCRIPTURAL proof of FREE WILL posted in any of the discussions... CHOICE does not indicate the doctrine of FREE WILL... if this were so it can be claimed that flies, ants, fish, cats and dogs for goodness sake... all have FREE WILL, because they ALL "choose" as they move through life...


You disagree with what has been said, rather than there having not been any example of it shown in scripture.


Quote

FREE WILL is proposing that GOD's WILL can be overidden by a created entity... I do not see this is so... for to override the WILL of GOD, means that He can no longer claim to be ALMIGHTY... for a "MIGHT" outside Him, ...has "FREELY" NEGATED of itself, the doings of GOD... :mnah:


If you disagree that God affording freedom within his boundaries is freewill, that is fine, but your argument with the term as stated above is certainly not anything I have proposed and few here have.   If indeed a person says that freedom can overpower Gods then we are in agreement on that aspect of things. 
 
A mouse within a maze is not free to cross the walls that make the paths in the maze but the mouse is free to go down wrong paths within the maze.  Of course sometimes, when the mouse is completely lost and has not ventured anywhere close to the path to the cheese I could grab the mouse and prompt it to go the correct way.   

That is how I see scripture and the relationship God has with mans will, and it definatly is how my life has went and even my wife understands that aspect of our life.   You can call it what you like, but the case you make above is not what I am saying.

Offline Molly

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2008, 04:14:34 PM »
Quote from: Paul
A mouse within a maze is not free to cross the walls that make the paths in the maze but the mouse is free to go down wrong paths within the maze.  Of course sometimes, when the mouse is completely lost and has not ventured anywhere close to the path to the cheese I could grab the mouse and prompt it to go the correct way.

well, it's not quite that bad LOL!

We are qualitatively much closer to God than a mouse is to a man.

We are created in his image.  Indeed, we are meant to be his ambassador, agent, and brother of Christ.

Quite a difference, I'd say!

Offline Nathan

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2008, 04:29:00 PM »
Hmmm .  . . does this passage in Phillippians support, refute, or have no bearing on the subject of free will?

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 14Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2008, 04:31:26 PM »
Quote from: Paul
A mouse within a maze is not free to cross the walls that make the paths in the maze but the mouse is free to go down wrong paths within the maze.  Of course sometimes, when the mouse is completely lost and has not ventured anywhere close to the path to the cheese I could grab the mouse and prompt it to go the correct way.

well, it's not quite that bad LOL!

We are qualitatively much closer to God than a mouse is to a man.

We are created in his image.  Indeed, we are meant to be his ambassador, agent, and brother of Christ.

Quite a difference, I'd say!


My intent was never to depict us as nothing more than a mouse.  It was analogy to the basic structure of how our will may be.

But in the pathways of life, Gods will cannot be over powered, I know we disagree on things, but I have my doubts that you disagree with me there.

I know that I have went down a dark path in my life, as a believer, knowing full well it was wrong, but I wanted to feed my flesh because  it was something I had never experienced and felt cheated that I never had.  

I am not convinced that Gods hand was directly on me forcing me to do that, nor did he directly ordain it's occurance.

People who are completely baffled by the concept of eternity cannot see how that can be.  

 But down that path (in this maze of life) I found a dead end.  It was very difficult getting back to the narrow path, and God did grab a hold of me in a sense and prompt me to the right direction, even if that prompting was from the realization of how painful the dead end really was.

I was never apart from Gods will, but I did have a certain freedom to take the path that was a dead end.   That is the miracle of mankind.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 04:48:34 PM by Paul Hazelwood »

Offline Molly

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #68 on: December 12, 2008, 04:35:13 PM »
Hmmm .  . . does this passage in Phillippians support, refute, or have no bearing on the subject of free will?

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 14Do all things without murmurings and disputings:



Romans 6:12

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, so that you obey  its desires.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #69 on: December 12, 2008, 04:46:15 PM »
Hmmm .  . . does this passage in Phillippians support, refute, or have no bearing on the subject of free will?

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 14Do all things without murmurings and disputings:




Hi Nathan I think the previous verse is often overlooked

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


What about  "When we have not always obeyed?"


Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #70 on: December 12, 2008, 05:52:50 PM »
You know... I find it interesting that those who believe in "free will" often get really uptight or upset... when confronted by those who believe in Complete Divine Sovereignty...  I wonder why this is?  Something to think about...  :Chinscratch:


Hi there WillieH,

I do think about that and the answer is that a persons emotional reaction to anything is irrevalent to it's truth.  Whether intentional or not, the question you propose is most often asked only to cast the emotional light of favor onto a persons own beliefs rather than remain within the factual confines of scripture.   

There are people who do not believe in any kind of freedom of the will that will get uptight at those who believe there is.  Does that mean by your own words that you should now think about that? :Chinscratch:

These kinds of reactions in human beings happen all the time in any situation you can muster up.


I do not say this to offend, only to propose a view for the readers to contemplate.


« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 05:54:43 PM by Paul Hazelwood »

Offline CHB

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2008, 07:05:33 PM »
If you really stop and think about it, free will or our will, however you want to see it, is a connection with works. They go hand in hand. Our works have gotten us into trouble with God and man since the beginning of time.

Take for instance Adam and Eve. God told them not to eat of the tree of good and evil, which he knew they would. They did and their nakedness, or sin was uncovered. They tried to cover their nakedness by their own works. They made themselves clothes out of fig leaves. Now you know what a big puff of wind would do to that?  :bigGrin: It took God to make them clothes out of skin, probably sheep. First sacrifice, blood was shed, sins was covered. Adam and Eve's work, or will was useless. A spiritual lesson that Christ would die for their sins.

Then we have Cain:
Cain and Able both offered sacrifices. Cain offered his works, the sweat of his brow, his will. God wasn't pleased with Cain's offering, why? Cain wasn't looking to the work of Christ, he depended on his own works, or will. Able offered a sheep, a forshadow of Christ. Able looked to God, Cain to his own works, or will.

Then we have Job:

Job was rich and respected in the streets, in Job's eyes he got the praise of man by his works or will. Job said "I have been eyes to the blind, I have fed the poor, I have been father to the fatherless. Do you see the I's here? Job couldn't understand why God was giving him all these trials because he had done everything perfect. Do you see a pattern, a puffing up, a boastful prideful pattern when it comes to our works or will?

Then we go to Nebuchadnezzar:

Neb had a dream and Daniel interpreted it for the king and told him his kingdom would be taken away and what would happen. What did Neb do? He walked into the palace and said "Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom bythe might of my power. From that moment the kingdom was taken away from him. Neb braged about his works, his own will.

Then we get to the Pharisees:

They were a bunch of do do's. Lots of free will, works. They were proud of their works. Jesus called them snakes vipers hypocrites. See, they were proud, boastful, used their works and will to honor themselves and look good to man. This is what our will does for us, it causes us to look inward to ourselves instead of to God for all things.

Then we came to Paul:

Paul wasn't self righteous. He was different from the rest. Paul said "what do we have that wasn't given to us". Not by works of righteousness that we have done. (Tit. 3:5) (Gal. 2:21) Paul said "if righteousness came by the works of the law, then Christ is dead in vain". Not of works lest any man should boast.

You might say works and our will aren't the same but I think they are. Christ told his disciples they had to deny themselves what does that mean? Job said "I abhore myself" Neb said I blessed the most high, and I praised and honoured him. In verse 35 of Daniel chapter 4 what did Neb come to see. I will let you read it for yourselves.

I have to go out of town for a few days, if someone respondes to this I will answer it when I get back.

CHB   

« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 03:09:30 PM by CHB »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2008, 07:21:45 PM »
Hi CHB,

You posted several things that I try to see in scripture.   As this issue gets discussed  there are views that it must be either / or.

Seeing freedom in our will does not negate the need to understand the Glory of God for "everything".  The pharasees being proud of themselves does not negate the freedom they had to do so.

It also does not mean that God never directly has his hand on our life.

It only means that as God has seen fit, he works "all" those aspects of things.   And as I have said in another thread.  The argument over the term is the hinderance,  I just point out how it appears in scripture to me and how my life has matched that variable aspect of things I mentioned.     

If someone says "that is not freewill"  oh well, that does not change anything.

Thanks for your comments.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 07:23:21 PM by Paul Hazelwood »

Offline Nathan

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2008, 07:36:12 PM »
Revelation 2

1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
 2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:  3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.  4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee


8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;  9 I know thy works, . . .

12And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;  13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.  14But I have a few things against thee,


18And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;  19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.  20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee . . .

Revelation 3
1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.  2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.


7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;  8  I know thy works . . .

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;  15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot



Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2008, 08:13:52 PM »

Honestly, it is the contrast in scripture that I find that keeps me hunting within it even more.


Ja 2:18 But someone will be declaring,  "You'  have faith and I'  have works."  Show me your faith apart from the works and I'  shall be showing you my *faith by my works.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 08:16:19 PM by Paul Hazelwood »