Author Topic: Hello!  (Read 7825 times)

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Zeek

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2008, 08:01:02 AM »
I am up way to late and probably shouldn't even go here, but wondering if you see "frustration" as being able to coexist with peace.  I see frustration as an emotion we experience when we believe something "should" be or shouldn't be a certain way.  It's an emotion based on past or future, but not the now. 

what do u think?


I think that sometimes, Christians forget they are human beings and that their neighbor is human.

I am completely at peace. I just want a place to meet people who are compatible with that peace.

From some things I am observing.

It may not be this place.

 :msealed: :bgdance:

There will alwasy be something that we will "believe" that goes against "what is" wherever you go.  Peace that passeth understanding is within you, not strengthened by "greener pastures"

Zeek

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2008, 08:03:37 AM »
Well I hope you stay, but I guarantee you that your "frustration" and "lack of finding others to support your peace belief" is not dependent upon any one of us, but on your thoughts about us. 

I constantly ask myself throughout the day,

is it the situation that's the problem (why i feel an unease) or my thoughts about the situation?? 

good night,

and am preaching to myself more than u.

z
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 08:14:09 AM by Zeek »

YoungYuni

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2008, 08:05:35 AM »
Hello Zeek,

I do not believe you are understanding the frustration.

It is not about belief.

 :boyheart: :girlheart:

Zeek

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2008, 08:05:59 AM »
Hello Zeek,

I do not believe you are understanding the frustration.

It is not about belief.

 :boyheart: :girlheart:

where does it come from then??

YoungYuni

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2008, 08:15:20 AM »
The constant battle of having to deal with lies concerning what I believe told about me among those who believe in everlasting torment is one thing.

Dealing with lies concerning what I believe among those who supposedly understand salvation for all, is just disappointing.

A person can state their belief and be good; however the moment they begin to tell lies concerning about another person's belief, is another.

This is not a thing of peace, I am quite self-sufficient. It is about the purpose of why this place exists.

A difference of opinion is one thing, but telling me that because I believe in free will that I do not believe in the Sovereignty of God.

Why would a person even put up with that?

I tolerate it, but I am not going to be quiet about it.

We all need to think about what we are saying before we say or write it.

As I said previously, I have constant arguments with my family because we are all passionate people and really opinionated. People might even believe we hate each other over it; however, as passionate as we are concerning our beliefs, we are just equally or more passionate about each other concerning love.

If what I say can be disproved, it is a great discussion and a learning experience.

If what I say cannot be disproved, it remains and it is up to the one discussing it, to take a learning experience.

If what I can say cannot be disproved, and the person continues to believe what they believe any ways that too is okay.

When what I say cannot be disproved, but the person continues to believe what they believe and attributes their ideas, which have nothing to do with what I said, as being what I said in order to continue believing what they believe.  Then I get frustrated. There is no need for this.

Does that make sense?

Thanks for the discussion Zeek!

Maybe it was needed to be vented, and some things you said needed to be said!

I respect that!

Have a good night too!


Zeek

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2008, 08:19:59 AM »
The constant battle of having to deal with lies concerning what I believe told about me among those who believe in everlasting torment is one thing.

Dealing with lies concerning what I believe among those who supposedly understand salvation for all, is just disappointing.

A person can state their belief and be good; however the moment they begin to tell lies concerning about another person's belief, is another.

This is not a thing of peace, I am quite self-sufficient. It is about the purpose of why this place exists.

A difference of opinion is one thing, but telling me that because I believe in free will that I do not believe in the Sovereignty of God.

Why would a person even put up with that?

I tolerate it, but I am not going to be quiet about it.

We all[u] need [/u] to think about what we are saying before we say or write it.

As I said previously, I have constant arguments with my family because we are all passionate people and really opinionated. People might even believe we hate each other over it; however, as passionate as we are concerning our beliefs, we are just equally or more passionate about each other concerning love.

If what I say can be disproved, it is a great discussion and a learning experience.

If what I say cannot be disproved, it remains and it is up to the one discussing it, to take a learning experience.

If what I can say cannot be disproved, and the person continues to believe what they believe any ways that too is okay.

When what I say cannot be disproved, but the person continues to believe what they believe and attributes their ideas, which have nothing to do with what I said, as being what I said in order to continue believing what they believe.  Then I get frustrated. There is no need for this.

Does that make sense?

Thanks for the discussion Zeek!

Maybe it was needed to be vented, and some things you said needed to be said!

I respect that!

Have a good night too!



It makes total sense, and I again challenge you to see if the frustration is because of the other person, or your own beliefs.  I underlined above stuff that to me is all about your beliefs, opinions, which will always cause frustration if violated.  Then we defend and go "to war mentally".

one last thing, with your free will, remove your frustration and add to your being appreciation, acceptance and love toward those "in the past" told "lies" about you.  Change your belief, change your opinions.  Create the fruits of the spirit.  What a joy to walk in the Spirit. 

If you choose not to, then you truly are the creator of your own frustration, not others. 

now that is my last post

got to get some sleep
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 08:31:57 AM by Zeek »

Offline CHB

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2008, 04:19:59 PM »
Hiya CHB!

Please forgive my frustration.

 :icon_queen:  :icon_king:

I was just floored that you thought this was an issue of God's Sovereignty in all things. Maybe I missed something and should have asked more questions.

Let me make it up to you!

 :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

I love you! Please accept my apology.

You asked:

If we all agreed on everything, there would be no need for forums. Do you think this will happen eventually?

The answer is:

YES!

I hope you were reading what I wrote in that post earlier, I cannot remember the name but it seems locked, where I explained why.

The knowledge of the truth turns people to the truth of what is right and good for all mankind.

Just as it is inevitable for mankind to sin when ignorant to what is true; it is inevitable for mankind be righteous because what is true will be recognized and testified in due time.

In the meantime, since we have not yet passed to the other side of this mortal life, the righteous must live by faith because the knowledge of the truth has yet been seen with our eyes or understood with complete perfection in our hearts.

I am sorry again for my frustration.

May God Bless you! I should have bit my tongue!

 :boyheart: :girlheart:


So sorry if I caused a problem with my word "sovereignty" I guess I should have used the word "freewill". My fault for any misunderstandings. :mblush: I should have said we are few in number who do not believe in freewill. I don't apologize for my belief but only if I said something to offend any one. It was not my intention to cause any one frustrations. I was actually shocked to come back and see that what I said was upsetting to you.   :mshock: Again, I truly apologize for my misuse of words, I didn't mean any harm to you.   :HeartThrob: I will try to be more careful in the future.   :IloveU:

CHB

martincisneros

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2008, 04:31:20 PM »
Dealing with lies concerning what I believe among those who supposedly understand salvation for all, is just disappointing.

A person can state their belief and be good; however the moment they begin to tell lies concerning about another person's belief, is another.

This is not a thing of peace, I am quite self-sufficient. It is about the purpose of why this place exists.

A difference of opinion is one thing, but telling me that because I believe in free will that I do not believe in the Sovereignty of God.

Why would a person even put up with that?
Yup!  It's never been an issue of anyone here not believing in God's Sovereignty.  It's always been about the villification of those that believe in free will as well.  Anyone that believes in the Universal Restoration believes in God's Sovereignty, but how God in His Sovereignty chooses to relate to each of us and to acheive His end goals is where there's seemed to be absolutely no tolerance towards those with an understanding of free will.  Someone kept throwing in my face that free will wasn't Scriptural and wasn't to be found in the whole of the Bible, and they tend to use the KJV as a Universalist.  So, I picked up my Strong's Concordance yesterday morning and looked up Sovereign and Sovereignty and like I figured, it's not to be found in the whole of the KJV.  Not even a word specifically implying it in either the Hebrew or Greek, according to Strong's.  (I read really fast, but count slowly sometimes.)  But with Sovereignty not being found in Strong's in a translation that was produced when belief in God's Sovereignty was at it's zenith (although I realize that there have been countless revisions to the KJV), I decided to see if the Bible said anything about freewill, simply from the standpoint of the Concordance.  And here's what I found.  In the KJV these terms are used and here's how many times they're used:

Strong's Concordance says that the KJV uses the word "free" 58 times, freewill 17 times, freed 2 times, freely 16 times, freewoman 3 times, selfwill is used 1 time, selfwilled is used 2 times, and liberty is used 27 times.  I got lazy on counting out the word "will" so I asked Biblegateway.com how many times "will" is used and it counted 'em up as 2908 times, willing is used 54 times, willeth is used 1 time, wilt is 208 times, and would is used 437 times.

Everyone with any Scriptural sense is going to acknowledge that many, many of those uses of the word "Will" are going to be in the sense of the will of God, but I'd be deeply surprised if it wasn't over 500 that refer to the will of man, because of my own Church background where man's will was actually taught from the Scriptures rather than improvised by nice sounding flowery new age-isms like you find in a lot of Churches that don't keep it to the Book.  Again, no one who believes in the Universal Restoration has ever asserted that God isn't Sovereign.  It's the unwillingness of some to acknowledge that man has a will that's anything but corrupt where those who believe in free will take issue.  Liberty seems to be the KJV word that comes closer to the idea of what people mean that use the term "free will" or "freewill" around here, although free, freely, would, and will would also be [KJV] Scriptural terms for what someone believing in free will is referring to. 

God overrides our free will when it's in our best interests or when it's in the best interests of His own glory, or where it relates to a Covenant issue that He's keeping to the thousandth generation, as when He turns the heart of the king/prime minister/president where He wishes.  But not much besides.  It's pretty much our own decision and varying degrees of blindness that determines whether or not our socks are matching that we're wearing today.  Most of the time, His overriding of someone's will winds up being about His providing hand to someone that's keeping Covenant with Him, or at least on their knees before Him pushing past every demonic obstacle in prayer.  What He did with Pharaoh was in the behalf of Israel, what He did with Christ Jesus was about our provisions, etc., etc. 

People confuse the Jubilee principle of the Scriptures with the natural laws of the harvest that Jesus described in Mark 4.  The years of release and years of Jubilee where God demands the preaching of liberty throughout the land are entirely different from the normal years where the free will of man is where it's generally going to naturally flow towards as to whether or not there's liberty or captivity.  There are no Scriptural laws of the harvest (i.e. 2Corinthians 9, Galatians 6, et. al.) without free will.  And 2Corinthians 8:12 says that this is according to what a man has and not according to what he doesn't have, so the arguments about all of the externals and internals that man seemingly has no control over are irrelevant to the conversation.  But at the same time, whenever we reach a fullness of time on certain things, God is going to have every single fruit and every single seed that corresponds with His predetermined will for Him to have.

YoungYuni

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2008, 04:37:59 PM »
Hiya CHB,

I again apologize!

I was writing too late at night.

I have a few people who used to be my friends telling everyone that I am a Unitarian Universalist.

They keep saying things, "Oh Yuni is not a Christian, but a Unitarian," anytime we went out with other friends.

I am not a Unitarian, I am a Universalist. I don't believe that every god and religion leads us to the same place as Unitarians believe.

They then say, "Well, unlike Yuni, we are Christian." when I talk about things of Christ.

It is frustrating!

I receive an invite in my facebook to visit Tentmaker website and found this forum.

I know I came on strong talking about it; but, some things people were saying about those who believe in free will, really reminded me of what I go through in my life dealing with people continually misrepresenting what I believe.

I come to this forum and I am told that that I do not believe in the Sovereignty of God simply because I believe we have free will?

So when I saw your reply saying you were one of the few who believed in the Sovereignty of God, I was like, "Oh brother."

So I again sorry for being frustrated.

 :mblush: :msealed:

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2008, 04:56:26 PM »
Col 1:18 And He'  is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn outfrom among the dead, that in all He'  may be becoming first,


As far as the actual word Sovereign, correct, it is not in scripture,  the CLV gets it from

G746  arche  ar-khay'

from G756;

(properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various
applications of order, time, place, or rank):--beginning, corner, (at the, the)
first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

G756  archomai  ar'-khom-ahee
middle voice of G757 (through the implication, of precedence);
to commence (in order of time):--(rehearse from the) begin(-ning).

Freewill in the old testament is from

H5071  ndabah  ned-aw-baw'

from H5068;

properly (abstractly) spontaneity, or (adjectively) spontaneous; also
(concretely) a spontaneous or (by inference, in plural) abundant gift:--free(-
will) offering, freely, plentiful, voluntary(-ily, offering), willing(-ly), offering).

H5068  nadab  naw-dab'

a primitive root;

to impel; hence, to volunteer (as a soldier), to present spontaneously:--offer
freely, be (give, make, offer self) willing(-ly).



In the new testament

G1595  hekousion  hek-oo'-see-on

neuter of a derivative from G1635;

voluntariness:--willingly.


G1635  hekon  hek-own'

of uncertain affinity;

voluntary:--willingly.



To avoid hijacking the thread any further, I will refrain from any other comments, lol

martincisneros

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2008, 05:21:45 PM »
Hi Paul,

Thanks for pointing out where the Concordant Literal uses the word "Sovereign."  I hadn't thought to look in the Concordance in the back of my Concordant for any usages of that word.  That's probably why the Lord had me restrain myself from saying in my last post that it's a word that's usually only used in the really bad translations like the NIV.  Unless I'm misreading my Concordant Literal Translation's Concordance at the back of the Testament, it seems to be indicating that that's the only place where the Word "Sovereign" comes up in the New Testament.  It's their translation based upon usage in that particular context.  When you look at "Sovereign" in the Concordance at the back of the Concordant New Testament it says to see the word "Origin" and that's where I only find that one and only listing for it in the New Testament from Colossians.

Perhaps it's my Word of Faith background surfacing and horribly tainting my perceptions in the way that some would view it, but that idea that the Sovereignty of God only comes up in Scripture in connection to prosperity, or God's providing Hand where something or someone is concerned; some aspect of His plan, and usually involving some segment of His people that He's engineering some element of prosperity in their lives is an idea that won't leave me.  I keep thinking of more and more examples of that in the Scriptures.  Any Scripture that comes to mind with any of the Sovereignty folks should probably be challenged by them in their meditation time with the question "Where's the Prosperity in this?  What or Who is being prospered as a result of this?" 

And that may turn out to be, upon careful further examination, the way to Scripturally judge whether you're talking about an area of God's Sovereignty at work in your life or whether you're simply allowing yourself to be robbed and beaten down by the devil: Is God genuinely using this or that for His glory in a way that can Scripturally be judged and perceived by unbelievers that He's calling to Himself?  And in what way is God fully prospering His firstborn people/elect within the context of this eon by this or that?  And if you can't Scripturally answer both of those questions in an edifying way, then you're nose to nose with the devil and not with God in the situation and need to rebuke it and cast it out and stand against the situation with the promises of God at absolutely all costs of fasting, prayer, meditation in the Scriptures, and screaming the Word of God if necessary until the Holy Spirit manifests and actually brings glory to Christ Jesus in your deliverance, being provided for, etc.

One of my deepest concerns for weeks and weeks was the apparent fatalism in Sovereignty teaching and mistakenly submitting to the devil rather than to God situation by situation without a Scriptural balance being conveyed in any of the teaching along those lines around here.  But I believe that God is now opening my eyes to the just balance in that and how to Scripturally judge that and the fruit of whatever is going on, as to whether it's a genuine area of God's Sovereignty or a devil that genuinely and literally needs to be cast out. 

If it doesn't bring glory to the finished work of Christ, then it is most definitely not an area of God's Sovereignty at work and you need to cast it out even if it takes fasting 40 days and confessing the Word night and day without sleep until you're fully persuaded of His victory over every area of your life in ways that are redemptive and that knit you in a greater way to God's love and provision.  If it's trying to prevent the will of God from coming to pass of your being exalted without measure by the abundance of the revelations, then it's time to believe [for once] that God's grace is sufficient rather than insufficient and rebuke and cast it out 'cause God is fully behind your being exalted by the provisions of Christ as a testimony to a wicked and perverse generation among whom you're to shine as a light in a dark place until the day dawns and the morning star arises in their hearts!

Offline CHB

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2008, 05:44:44 PM »

Quote from: Martincisneros
One of my deepest concerns for weeks and weeks was the apparent fatalism in Sovereignty teaching and mistakenly submitting to the devil rather than to God situation by situation without a Scriptural balance being conveyed in any of the teaching along those lines around here.  But I believe that God is now opening my eyes to the just balance in that and how to Scripturally judge that and the fruit of whatever is going on, as to whether it's a genuine area of God's Sovereignty or a devil that genuinely and literally needs to be cast out.


Martin,

I hope I am misunderstanding you and you are not saying that we who do not believe in freewill are of the devil?  Forgive me if I am wrong here. Do you think we have a devil that has to be cast out? Am trying to understand what you are saying here. I hear this from ET'rs all the time because I believe in Universal Salvation.  :sigh:

CHB

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2008, 05:45:26 PM »

And that may turn out to be, upon careful further examination, the way to Scripturally judge whether you're talking about an area of God's Sovereignty at work in your life or whether you're simply allowing yourself to be robbed and beaten down by the devil: Is God genuinely using this or that for His glory in a way that can Scripturally be judged and perceived by unbelievers that He's calling to Himself?  And in what way is God fully prospering His firstborn people/elect within the context of this eon by this or that?  And if you can't Scripturally answer both of those questions in an edifying way, then you're nose to nose with the devil and not with God in the situation and need to rebuke it and cast it out and stand against the situation with the promises of God at absolutely all costs of fasting, prayer, meditation in the Scriptures, and screaming the Word of God if necessary until the Holy Spirit manifests and actually brings glory to Christ Jesus in your deliverance, being provided for, etc.


I tend to agree with this and it is why arguments over terms cause a misrepresentation of both scripture and Gods will.


According to the usage and defintion of the word that is translated sovereign, God is the beginning power and his power takes precedence.   And as you said, no body that believes in  UR and some fashion of liberty within our will denies that.

The scriptural case can be made for both Gods control and our liberty,  that liberty cannot change Gods precedence of power.  However, because both are depicted in scripture, then we must apply scripture to our lives and not "terms".


Focusing on a term is one factor that hinders people from over coming addictions.   Depression sets in as we think we are so free as to stop anything we do, so we get painted as  bad people.  Futility can set in when we repeat a behavior and it is thought there is no use because God is the controller.

When you apply scripture it is the balance of Gods control and our will that should be seen to understand to never give up trying to be better no matter how futile or how bad we seem to be.   Always try, because there is a purpose behind the struggle.

I have overcome things that I was stuck in for years,  I would have been stuck in them for much longer and probably would still do them today if I just took the attitude that well, I'll stop when God prys the cold beer out of my hand.  

Did God control the events that caused me to voluntarily give it up?   Yes indeed I believe so.  Did God pry the beer our of my hand?   No, he did not.

Might he in some cases?   I believe he can and does.   The problem with arguing over "terms" is the issue becomes "either / or" instead of seeing Gods work in peoples lives through scripture.




martincisneros

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2008, 06:01:08 PM »
Martin,

I hope I am misunderstanding you and you are not saying that we who do not believe in freewill are of the devil?  Forgive me if I am wrong here. Do you think we have a devil that has to be cast out? Am trying to understand what you are saying here. I hear this from ET'rs all the time because I believe in Universal Salvation.  :sigh:

CHB
Yup!  That was a pretty bad misunderstanding of what I was saying.  I was talking about the situations that we face in life and the approach of whether we're submitting to everything that comes along since there's nothing that isn't from God in the apparent view of some, and where the Scriptures say that some things are from the devil and should be cast out.  If we're not able to say with Apostle Paul, "I've been delivered from all of these afflictions" then we've not yet fully partaken of the grace of God and haven't fully accepted the promises by which St. Peter said that we're made partakers and participants in the divine nature, escaping the corruption that's in the world through lust.  If we're not escaping the curse of this world and are still being defeated by circumstances then it's time to do a reality check on what we really believe was acheived at the Cross because that was for our deliverance and not for our continued shame. 

It's the devil that's looking to shame us and bring disappointment to the world when we who know Christ Jesus and His mighty power aren't having a better lot in life than they are.  The Scripture talks about those whose glorying is in their shame and whose end is destruction.  Everything in the New Testament calls upon us to resist those things that we've been redeemed from by the sufferings of Christ.  He bore our sin, so we're to resist it, according to Romans 6.  He bore our poverty, according to 2Corinthians 8:9, therefore we're obligated to believe the Gospel and give until we've broken the back of that curse of poverty on our lives and walk into the place that God has for us where we're fully equipped for every good work.  Everything He bore for us, we're obligated to resist as partakers in the fellowship of His sufferings, being made comformable unto His death in order to obtain the resurrection from the dead in each of these situations that we face in life. 

I was referring to an outlook on life that's either overcoming with Christ or that's resisting God, submitting to the devil, and causing God to flee from our lives until the consummation of the ages when Christ abolishes death and delivers all up to God as fully restored from their death of trespasses.  I was not referring to people who believe in God's sovereignty being demonized, because as I've continually said again and again and again there's not a single person who believes in the Universal Restoration that doesn't believe in God's Sovereignty. 

I was talking about how to judge the fruit of what's going on in our lives and what we're the most yielded to, whether the Blessing or the Curse.  If Christ's work isn't fully being glorified in any of my circumstances and if His salvation isn't being beautified to all of the nations to where they're wanting what I have, then there's a devil on the loose somewhere in my life that needs to be cast out, whether it's in my body, my finances, my area of what I'm doing with my life, whether my mind is fully renewed to the victory side of life in walking hand in hand with Christ Jesus as a King and Priest in life through the abundance of grace and gift of righteousness that I've been a recipient of, etc.  My concern has been regarding a hyper sovereignty perspective that tries to say that whatever will be, will be when 75% of the pages of the New Testament rebuke such an outlook on life and calls upon us to put on the whole armor of God and to bring every thought into subjection to the obedience of Christ Jesus, having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience when our obedience is fulfilled.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 06:09:32 PM by martincisneros »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2008, 06:14:04 PM »
Strong's Concordance says that the KJV uses the word "free" 58 times, freewill 17 times, freed 2 times, freely 16 times, freewoman 3 times, selfwill is used 1 time, selfwilled is used 2 times, and liberty is used 27 times.  I got lazy on counting out the word "will" so I asked Biblegateway.com how many times "will" is used and it counted 'em up as 2908 times, willing is used 54 times, willeth is used 1 time, wilt is 208 times, and would is used 437 times.

Something strange with freewill in Strong's....
Indeed it's 17 times in KJV.
If you use software that shows the greek/hebrew word for freewill you will notice that only 1 verse Ezra 7:13 has strong's linked to it.
All other 16 verse are "freewill offering" According to Strong that's based on one Aramaic word. The same word as when freewill is used on itself.
Usually things inserted by the translators are printed in a cursive font. Not in this case.

Same weird thing in Rev 21:7 and 21:3 James 4:8 among several others.
No cursive font and the word will (not freewill) has no 'source word'
Other verses show will with a 'source word'

If we look at the meaning it give me no insight in the whole freewill discussion because the red and blue variant differ greatly in meaning.

You find the diffrences in interpretation in several books on TM.
God will save everyone. The red or blue will make a big difference here.
Same applies to humans. I can will to post a smiley in this post.
I can also will to earn a billion $ an hour.
But I can't will to earn a billion $ an hour.

Quote
G2307
θέλημα
thelēma
thel'-ay-mah
From the prolonged form of G2309; a determination (properly the thing), that is, (actively) choice (specifically purpose, decree; abstractly volition) or (passively) inclination: - desire, pleasure, will.

The 'trouble' starts in:
Genesis 2:18  And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

It's clear Eve was created shortly after that verse.
Now look at the word will...
Again it has no 'source word' it's teaming together as "will make"
I don't know how its called in English but most of the time it has the form(at) of:
to help
to walk
to think

So looking back at my own post I have to conclude that will is a strange word in connection with Strongs. And then I'm not trying to debate if will is or isn't free.

Thoughts please.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline CHB

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2008, 06:38:45 PM »

Yup!  That was a pretty bad misunderstanding of what I was saying.  I was talking about the situations that we face in life and the approach of whether we're submitting to everything that comes along since there's nothing that isn't from God in the apparent view of some, and where the Scriptures say that some things are from the devil and should be cast out.  If we're not able to say with Apostle Paul, "I've been delivered from all of these afflictions" then we've not yet fully partaken of the grace of God and haven't fully accepted the promises by which St. Peter said that we're made partakers and participants in the divine nature, escaping the corruption that's in the world through lust.  If we're not escaping the curse of this world and are still being defeated by circumstances then it's time to do a reality check on what we really believe was acheived at the Cross because that was for our deliverance and not for our continued shame.

I see.  :happy3: I don't think there is a single one of us who have gotten to to the point you speak of. 

 
Quote from: martincisneros
It's the devil that's looking to shame us and bring disappointment to the world when we who know Christ Jesus and His mighty power aren't having a better lot in life than they are.  The Scripture talks about those whose glorying is in their shame and whose end is destruction.  Everything in the New Testament calls upon us to resist those things that we've been redeemed from by the sufferings of Christ.  He bore our sin, so we're to resist it, according to Romans 6.  He bore our poverty, according to 2Corinthians 8:9, therefore we're obligated to believe the Gospel and give until we've broken the back of that curse of poverty on our lives and walk into the place that God has for us where we're fully equipped for every good work.  Everything He bore for us, we're obligated to resist as partakers in the fellowship of His sufferings, being made comformable unto His death in order to obtain the resurrection from the dead in each of these situations that we face in life.

I respect your opinion. :happy3: Paul said "what do we have that wasn't given to us". As I said earlier, I have no argument with those who believe in freewill. I don't look down on any one who believes in freewill. i don't feel that they are any less a child of God than me. I just believe God has given us all different understandings about different things and I respect everyone's belief whether it is against what I believe or not.    

Quote from: martincisneros

I was referring to an outlook on life that's either overcoming with Christ or that's resisting God, submitting to the devil, and causing God to flee from our lives until the consummation of the ages when Christ abolishes death and delivers all up to God as fully restored from their death of trespasses.  I was not referring to people who believe in God's sovereignty being demonized, because as I've continually said again and again and again there's not a single person who believes in the Universal Restoration that doesn't believe in God's Sovereignty.

If I am responsible for these things then I am in a heap of trouble and it is really scary. I honestly believe if I believed in freewill I would give up on life its self. 

Quote from: martincisneros

I was talking about how to judge the fruit of what's going on in our lives and what we're the most yielded to, whether the Blessing or the Curse.  If Christ's work isn't fully being glorified in any of my circumstances and if His salvation isn't being beautified to all of the nations to where they're wanting what I have, then there's a devil on the loose somewhere in my life that needs to be cast out, whether it's in my body, my finances, my area of what I'm doing with my life, whether my mind is fully renewed to the victory side of life in walking hand in hand with Christ Jesus as a King and Priest in life through the abundance of grace and gift of righteousness that I've been a recipient of, etc.  My concern has been regarding a hyper sovereignty perspective that tries to say that whatever will be, will be when 75% of the pages of the New Testament rebuke such an outlook on life and calls upon us to put on the whole armor of God and to bring every thought into subjection to the obedience of Christ Jesus, having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience when our obedience is fulfilled.

The above is just a difference of perception of the scriptures.

CHB

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2008, 06:46:53 PM »
Hi WW

Revelation 22:17  Re 22:17 And the spirit and the bride are saying,  `Come!'  and let him who is hearing say,  `Come!'  And let him who is thirsting come. Let him who will, take the water of life gratuitously.




G2309  thelo    thel'-o
or    ethelo   eth-el'-o,    in certain tenses
      theleo   thel-eh'-o,
and   etheleo  eth-el-eh'-o, which are otherwise obsolete

apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138;

to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014
properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations),
i.e. choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. be
inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense,
to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in:--desire, be disposed (forward),
intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).


G138  haireomai  hahee-reh'-om-ahee

probably akin to G142;

to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer:--choose. Some of the forms are borrowed
from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.


I'm not sure where we may go over freewill, so I am not going to present a case only the usage and root influence of the word used for will in this verse implies a certain freedom that man is afforded here.


Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2008, 06:51:52 PM »
I respect your opinion. :happy3: Paul said "what do we have that wasn't given to us".

I'm just extracting this one quote not to bring a refutation to you by selective quoting but to say how I see this.


Paul came to that conclusion because he ended up understanding that. The point I have been trying to make is that GOD did not control Paul to say that but worked on Pauls freedom till he understood it.   

If we continue to focus on the term and assert that it must be either/or, then we actually miss the miracle that humanity actually is.   


martincisneros

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2008, 06:55:08 PM »
If we continue to focus on the term and assert that it must be either/or, then we actually miss the miracle that humanity actually is.
EXACTLY. :Sparkletooth:

Offline CHB

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2008, 07:06:33 PM »
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood
Paul came to that conclusion because he ended up understanding that. The point I have been trying to make is that GOD did not control Paul to say that but worked on Pauls freedom till he understood it

Sure he came to understand that because God revealed it to him.  :bigGrin:

CHB


Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2008, 07:13:42 PM »
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood
Paul came to that conclusion because he ended up understanding that. The point I have been trying to make is that GOD did not control Paul to say that but worked on Pauls freedom till he understood it

Sure he came to understand that because God revealed it to him.  :bigGrin:

CHB


Yes, and therefore did not have to "control" his will.


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2008, 07:33:14 PM »
Hi WW
I'm not sure where we may go over freewill, so I am not going to present a case only the usage and root influence of the word used for will in this verse implies a certain freedom that man is afforded here.

Hi Paul,

My intention is not to start a freewill discussion. I have my idea's about it. I would like to know more about it. But I'm around here long enough to know that it only causes trouble and nothing is learned.

My reply was basicly observations:
a] Strongs 'behaves odd' with that word.
b] The meaning of the word (according to Strongs) is that it can either mean 100% or 0% freewill (without context)

To avoid trouble I would just want to know about a]
Maybe that general knowledge gives me more insight to use Strongs correctly....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2008, 08:06:02 PM »

Maybe that general knowledge gives me more insight to use Strongs correctly....


From what I understand, strongs is limited for two reasons.

1. It is based on the King James version (correct me if I am wrong) 
2. It's intent is to help with intepreting scripture rather than to help understand the Hebrew and Greek languages.


Offline Nathan

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2008, 08:14:07 PM »
 :hijacked:

You "lost" me at hello (get it?? "hello" the thread . . .??? . . . MAN I'm funny!!) :myahoo:

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Hello!
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2008, 09:06:13 PM »
So if a hijacked thread gets back on topic is that a Rehijacked thread?