Author Topic: heaven at death for believers?  (Read 3229 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2012, 05:42:00 PM »
It won't be unsealed until the end times.  At that time, things will start unfolding exactly as they are written in the Bible.  People familiar with the scripture will recognize it.

Offline Paul L

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2012, 06:17:07 PM »
It won't be unsealed until the end times.  At that time, things will start unfolding exactly as they are written in the Bible.  People familiar with the scripture will recognize it.

Nothing unreasonable about this point of view........many just don't like it because we are a "now" generation culture of people......we demand answers from Holy Writ which are often not there, and to add to the quagmire we "read in answers" that may not be actually be what God has intended for us to understand........go figure, often I can't.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2012, 12:46:38 AM »
Well, that's just one way of looking at it tho. We are also people who hate to admit we can't figure something out. In my opinion the only thing still sealed is the seven thunders(Rev 10:4). The Lamb unsealed the book(scroll) in the hand of the one who sits on the throne(Rev 5). The seven seals were broken and the contents of the scroll as it is unsealed makes up the rest of the revelation. Almost everything in the revelation is symbols out of things spoken by Jesus, the prophets and the apostles.

Daniel was told to seal up his book(scroll),"until the time of the end"(Dan 12:4,9). I believe Daniels sealed scroll was unsealed by the Lamb for John(Rv 5:5).

John was told NOT to seal up the book, "For the time is at hand"(Rev 22:10).

That means THEN, WHEN JOHN RECEIVED IT EVEN UNTIL NOW, in my opinion. What else could it mean?

Sometimes we are so literal till it says something we don't want to hear.

In the same way, if the dead in Christ rise first, first resurrection(Rev 20:1-5), and those who are alive and remaining follow immediately after "to meet the Lord in the air"( 1Thess 4:14-17).....and if the first resurrection is at the second coming(Mt 24:27-21) .......and if the day of the Lord and our gathering together can NOT come until the man of perdition is revealed(2 Thes 2:3,4), which is probably at the mid-point of the tribulation(Daniel 12:11).... how can we meet the Lord in the air before the time of Jacob's trouble?

That math don't work for me.

We are not appointed to wrath, but we are appointed to persecution, where is it written that we are guaranteed a ticket out.

"If we suffer with Him we shall also reign with Him."

"Those who kno their God shall be strong and do exploits".
 
"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death".

I think the deliverance is in the secret place of the most high for those who abide "in Christ", not a pre trib rapture, but again, that is just my opinion.

Just for consideration though,

 Isaiah 26:20
   " Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast."

Psalm 91:1
 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;

Rev 12:13
 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

There was the ark for Noah. The land of Goshen for Israel during Egypt's plagues. There was the pillar of smoke and fire. There was Daniel in the lions den and Shadrach, Meshach and Abedneggo, which, in my opinion, is the CLEAREST vision of what the saints will face when the man of lawlessness is revealed, who will exalt himself above God and every so-called god and will walk in all lying wonders and deceiving power and false miracles of the devil- so that if it were possible even the very elect should be deceived.....but how could that be so if they got zapped out before it happens?

I believe God will demonstrate His glory in His people as OVERCOMERS not as ESCAPEES.

The idea that God cannot keep the faithful through times of trouble would be an insult to His grace and the sufferings of saints through a 1000 generations. There are other alternatives to a pre-trib rapture. Not sayin it's so.  Just sayin.
 

10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

 Wherefore the Lord said, For as much as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.




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Offline Paul L

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2012, 04:35:18 AM »
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author=eaglesway link=topic=10823.msg145119#msg145119 date=1353710798]


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Sometimes we are so literal till it says something we don't want to hear.

The first resurrection: Rev 20:5 "....the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection".

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In the same way, if the dead in Christ rise first, first resurrection(Rev 20:1-5), and those who are alive and remaining follow immediately after "to meet the Lord in the air"( 1Thess 4:14-17)

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.....and if the first resurrection is at the second coming(Mt 24:27-21)

Well then, there's another math problem here: Rev 20:5 clearly states the "first resurrection" occurs at the conclusion of the millenium.

In what verse of Matt 24 does Christ speak of a resurrection to occur at his coming? Verse 31 is the closest hint of such an event when the angels "gather together his elect", but from the context of the remainder of the chapter Christ only appears to be talking about those still alive on the earth who will be gathered together in Israel, but no hint of a resurrection here.



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.......and if the day of the Lord and our gathering together can NOT come until the man of perdition is revealed(2 Thes 2:3,4), which is probably at the mid-point of the tribulation(Daniel 12:11)

Where is the passage in Thessalonians that states our "gathering" occurs when the "man of perdition is revealed"? I looked several times & could find nothing about our "gathering" in verse 3 or 4.

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.... how can we meet the Lord in the air before the time of Jacob's trouble?

And this is precisely the problem, nailing down a sequence of events that calls for a resurrection to occur at the time of Christ's coming.

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That math don't work for me.

Nor me, but we'd be discussing different math. If the first resurrection occurs at the end of the "thousand years" as is clearly stated in Rev 20:5, what then is this catching away that occurs in Thess 4:17 when the Body of Christ is "caught up"   just after those who were "asleep" in verse 16 were made alive? We're very obviously reading about two different events, over 1000 years apart.

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time of the unveiling of the man of perdition

There is no warning to the end-time Body of Christ that they are to look to the revealing of the one who will sit in the temple declaring himself as God as an event  to look for as a sign Christ is just about to "catch away" the Body of Christ.

Paul in 2 Thess 2: 1-17 is merely laying out a timeline of sequences of events of the career of Anti-Christ, but I don't see Paul warning the Body of Christ to look for it as a calendar of unfolding events for the fulfillment  of his coming for the Body of Christ in 1 Thess 4:13-17. Also, there is no resurrection mentioned in  2 Thess 2: 1-17 either.










« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 04:58:39 AM by Paul L »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2012, 07:10:08 AM »
Well we can agree to disagree Paul. I see rev 20:4,5 differently. The first resurrection is before the 1000 years, "the rest of the dead after" the 1000 years. This is the resurrection spoken of in 1 thessalonians 4:14-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:23- there can only be one first resurrection(each in his own order) and it is at Christ's coming, which in my opinion precedes the millenial reign, since Christ must come in order to reign a thousand years, Therefore His appearing will precede the millenia. Paul speaks of the resurrection "at His coming". In Matthew 24 Jesus says He will come with His angels and "gather the elect" from the four winds- and Paul says that the dead in Christ will rise first. The timing of these things is really just details though. If we are "in Christ" abiding, we need not fear anything regardless of when and how it actually plays out.

As I said before, these are my opinions, I think they are reasonable and scriptural, but I don't want to carry on a long debate about it.
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Offline Paul L

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2012, 03:15:14 PM »
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author=eaglesway link=topic=10823.msg145125#msg145125 date=1353733808]

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I see rev 20:4,5 differently. The first resurrection is before the 1000 years, "the rest of the dead after" the 1000 years. This is the resurrection spoken of in 1 thessalonians 4:14-17

But finish the scriptural quote: "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection".

How can this possibly be referring to the resurrection spoken of in 1 Thess 4:4-17 by the Apostle Paul if you place it within the context of 2 Thess 2:2-17 as you assert should be done? The context of both of Paul's discussions in 1 & 2 Thess is pre-millennial.....not post millennial.

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and 1 Corinthians 15:23- there can only be one first resurrection(each in his own order) and it is at Christ's coming,

And I'm not disputing that with you, the problem arises with the plainly stated words of Holy Writ that the "first resurrection" occurs at the conclusion of the "thousand years". This being the case, and we know there is a resurrection when Christ comes for his Body prior to the 1000 years, the math adds up to two different resurrections.

All I'm putting forth here is that these two resurrections are group specific because they are described differently.



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which in my opinion precedes the millenial reign, since Christ must come in order to reign a thousand years, Therefore His appearing will precede the millenia.

And I'm agreeing with you on this, it was part of the points I was making above. But again, what are we to make of the dead who are made alive in Rev 20:5 at the conclusion of the millennium?


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In Matthew 24 Jesus says He will come with His angels and "gather the elect" from the four winds

And I have already pointed out to you previously there is no hint here of dead people rising to meet Christ in the air at this point in time. Matt 24 nowhere discusses anything about a resurrection of dead people, not even a hint, "hints" about a resurrection are read into this chapter using verse 31. If we start basing dogma on "hints", it soon becomes only a short path to complete confusion.

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- and Paul says that the dead in Christ will rise first.

And who is it Paul is referring to here? The Body of Christ.......not Israel as is what Christ is revealing to John in the book of Revelation.


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The timing of these things is really just details though.

One thousand years difference in time is a quite large detail.......

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If we are "in Christ" abiding, we need not fear anything regardless of when and how it actually plays out.

No disagreement here. I'm rather of the opinion none of us presently posting on this site will be alive when Christ comes to remove his Body from the planet, just too much other stuff that needs to happen that will require many more decades of events before endtime prophecies will be fulfilled, I'm under no delusions about that, just looking at reality.


Offline eaglesway

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2012, 04:03:13 PM »
You are misreading the verse. The first resurrection is before the 1000 years.

Rev 20:4 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

They "came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years"


Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


"The rest of the dead did not come to life" is a comparative clause inserted into a description of the first resurrection, which is for those who come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years, and over whom the second death has no power because they have been judged already- overcomers in Christ victorious through martyrdom -the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and the word of God.

The rest of the dead did not reign for a thousand years, over some of them the second death has power, they did not "come to life" until the thousand years were finished. Read it thoroughly Paul
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 04:15:21 PM by eaglesway »
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Offline Molly

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2012, 04:44:43 PM »
Dick and Jane Bible to the rescue:


4 I saw thrones. Those who had been given authority to judge were sitting on them. I also saw the souls of those whose heads had been cut off because they had given witness for Jesus and because of God's word. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue. They had not received his mark on their foreheads or hands. They came to life and ruled with Christ for 1,000 years.
 
5 This is the first resurrection.
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.
 
6 Blessed and holy are those who take part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them. They will be priests of God and of Christ. They will rule with him for 1,000 years.

--Rev 20

Offline Paul L

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2012, 05:56:17 PM »
You are misreading the verse. The first resurrection is before the 1000 years.


"The rest of the dead did not come to life" is a comparative clause inserted into a description of the first resurrection, which is for those who come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years, and over whom the second death has no power because they have been judged already- overcomers in Christ victorious through martyrdom -the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and the word of God.

The rest of the dead did not reign for a thousand years, over some of them the second death has power, they did not "come to life" until the thousand years were finished. Read it thoroughly Paul

Yep, you're right about that. My focus was on the dead who are resurrected after the 1000 years are up, that's the "resurrection" that comes at the end of the 1000 years. So far as I can tally it, we're up to three distinctly different resurrections.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2012, 06:27:44 PM »
One of the expository books I've read on revelation is in agreement with PaulL.
It explained with scripture how there were at least three resurrections.
I remember I agreed back then, but 40 years have past and I can't say I even care about that
anymore since what will happen is what God wills :2c: :sigh: :thumbsup: to happen.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Paul L

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2012, 08:08:00 PM »
One of the expository books I've read on revelation is in agreement with PaulL.
It explained with scripture how there were at least three resurrections.
I remember I agreed back then, but 40 years have past and I can't say I even care about that
anymore since what will happen is what God wills :2c: :sigh: :thumbsup: to happen.

Interesting the count could be tallied by independent observation....

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2012, 08:38:36 PM »
Yeah cause I doubt you could have borrowed the idea
out of a book that's been out of print for about 30 years. :thumbsup:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Paul L

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2012, 09:31:46 PM »
Yeah cause I doubt you could have borrowed the idea
out of a book that's been out of print for about 30 years. :thumbsup:

It was simple enough to do:

1. The Body of Christ believers who are raised prior to 70th week; 2 Thess 4:13-17

2. The Israelite believers who were beheaded during the 70th week & are raised at the end of it ; Rev 20:5

3. Others only identified in Rev 20:5 as the "rest of the dead" (although I'm quite sure I know who these are).

Three distinct groups of people each with their own distinct resurrection.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2012, 10:33:13 PM »
Back to REV 20 -  isn't there another resurrection of those whose names
were not found in the book of life and were cast into the lake of fire? Since that is the second death
wouldn't those people also require a resurrection from the dead?
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Paul L

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2012, 12:27:30 AM »
Back to REV 20 -  isn't there another resurrection of those whose names
were not found in the book of life and were cast into the lake of fire? Since that is the second death
wouldn't those people also require a resurrection from the dead?

I was wondering about exactly the same thing when I enumerated the three resurrections just above. Your assertion must be the case because we see in the second death there are those who are cast into a lake of fire who still must be saved or there is no reconciliation of all back to God. 

Of course they are cast into the lake of fire because their names were not found in the "book of life". So the question becomes: When do they get their opportunity at salvation? When & how do they get their names inserted into the book of life if not through a future resurrection? The Bible now goes blank at the point where the New Jerusalem descends down from heaven and its' only inhabitants are those whose names are found in the "Lamb's book of life" (Rev 21:27). You realize we may be talking about most of the people who have ever lived & died on planet earth, just sort of left out of everything.

Revelation provides a general criteria for those whose names are not contained in the "book of life", Rev 21:8. Would this exonerate any not found in this category even if they never heard of the only name by which they can be saved; for example neanderthal people who lived 40,000 years ago?

It seems to me there must be ages to follow the setting of the New Jerusalem on planet earth. What will be the period of time the New Jerusalem will exist on the planet? Certainly not eternally because contained in it's composition are physical structures subject to the natural radioactive decay of elements, we know this because there are descriptions of the materiel from which the city is built, read the compositions from Rev 21:10-23, so we know for sure there is another "age" of time here with the presence of the New Jerusalem.......after that...............?   












Offline ded2daworld

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2012, 12:37:46 AM »
 :dontknow:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Paul L

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2012, 02:22:38 AM »
:dontknow:

Well, I'm not quite at that point where I've thrown my hands up in the air totally perplexed.

I think there are explanations for the future of mankind beyond the millennium  which are bound up in what the "book of life" is really all about.

We know who will not have names in the "book of life" , those who work any sort of "abomination" & "lies" Rev 21:27. But if you notice in verse 24, "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it & the kings of the earth do bring their glory & honour into it". Whole nations have been "saved" sometime after the New Jerusalem settles into it's place on Earth & the rulers of these nations come to the city to do homage inside of it....so we don't have a clueless start as to how the redemption of the rest of mankind begins......it ties into the purpose for the New Jerusalem being forged into its place on the earth's crust.

If you recall, "salvation is of the Jews" they were intended to be God's missionaries to the world, the salvation of the earth wholly depends on Israel's relationship with its' Messiah, until that gets fixed, the world will continue to be in a mess. This is what God is fixing, and I would submit that the only names written in the "book of life" are those of the House of Judah & House of Israel, this is what I think Dan 12:1 is cluing us in concerning what names get written into the "book of life", there are no names outside those of Daniel's people to be found in that book, no Body of Christ people, no gentiles, no Catholics......etc.

Now, when you go back to Rev 21:27, who lives inside the city? Only those whose names were written in the "book of life". If only Israelites are allowed to live inside the New Jerusalem, why are the nations of earth's populations & their rulers coming to it as stated in verse 24? They are coming to the city to be taught the ways of God, they are finally sick & tired of trying to do things their way because it has never worked, they enter into the court of the gentiles where they are taught by Israelite missionaries the ways of their Messiah. Upon receiving instruction from their hosts living in the city, then go back to their homelands & the process continues, then at some point in time all the earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord, but now the really big job begins, getting that same message to all those who have lived & died & never had a chance to learn about Israel's Messiah, gotta be a resurrection in here somewhere to do this....... Thoughts?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 02:48:48 AM by Paul L »

Offline Paul L

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2012, 03:07:22 AM »
The following is an Old Testament prophecy that parallels  what I was explaining in my previous post..........

Zechariah 8:20-23
New King James Version (NKJV)
20 "Thus says the Lord of hosts:

'Peoples shall yet come,
Inhabitants of many cities;
21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying,
"Let us continue to go and pray before the Lord,
And seek the Lord of hosts.
I myself will go also."
22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations
Shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem,
And to pray before the Lord.'
23 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"


Offline eaglesway

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2012, 07:58:53 AM »
You are misreading the verse. The first resurrection is before the 1000 years.


"The rest of the dead did not come to life" is a comparative clause inserted into a description of the first resurrection, which is for those who come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years, and over whom the second death has no power because they have been judged already- overcomers in Christ victorious through martyrdom -the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and the word of God.

The rest of the dead did not reign for a thousand years, over some of them the second death has power, they did not "come to life" until the thousand years were finished. Read it thoroughly Paul

Yep, you're right about that. My focus was on the dead who are resurrected after the 1000 years are up, that's the "resurrection" that comes at the end of the 1000 years. So far as I can tally it, we're up to three distinctly different resurrections.

Could be three. As I see it there are two, but the second is divided in half. The first resurrection is for the ovecomers in Christ from all the ages at the second coming at the end of this age. The second, at the end of the millenial age is "the rest if the dead", which to me means all the dead that are left dead after the first resurrection.

IMO they go before the great white throne and those whose names are not found written in the Lamb's book of life go into kolassis(lake of fire/outer darkness). Those whose names are written in the Lambs book of life enter the anakephalaiomai (gathering into one in Christ Eph 1:11 and 1 Cor 15:28)

I actually think the lake of fire is probably an age where the lost and the adversaries are sequestered into "unaproachable light" until every hidden thing is brought to light and every knee bows knee bows. At any rate, when the last adversary is subjected, the ages end and God is all in all- no more time.

Of course as I have said before, these are murky things barely written of- yet, because they are written of, they are worthy of discussion :o)
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Offline Paul L

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Re: heaven at death for believers?
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2012, 08:51:23 PM »
Quote
author=eaglesway link=topic=10823.msg145166#msg145166 date=1353823133]
You are misreading the verse. The first resurrection is before the 1000 years.


"The rest of the dead did not come to life" is a comparative clause inserted into a description of the first resurrection, which is for those who come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years, and over whom the second death has no power because they have been judged already- overcomers in Christ victorious through martyrdom -the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and the word of God.

The rest of the dead did not reign for a thousand years, over some of them the second death has power, they did not "come to life" until the thousand years were finished. Read it thoroughly Paul

Yep, you're right about that. My focus was on the dead who are resurrected after the 1000 years are up, that's the "resurrection" that comes at the end of the 1000 years. So far as I can tally it, we're up to three distinctly different resurrections.

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Could be three. As I see it there are two, but the second is divided in half. The first resurrection is for the ovecomers in Christ from all the ages at the second coming at the end of this age. The second, at the end of the millenial age is "the rest if the dead", which to me means all the dead that are left dead after the first resurrection.

After the 1000 years are concluded, the New Jerusalem descends to earth, another age of human habitation on the planet commences. This is not heaven on earth where there is no more death & dying, that is not the description in Rev 21:24 & Zech 8 entire chapter. Notice in Zech 8:4 "....There shall yet old men & old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem.......5:"And the streets of the city shall be full of boys & girls .....", flesh & blood human population, inhabitants of Jerusalem being reared from childhood & growing old, and presumably dying.......all the while this is going on inside the New Jerusalem we skip to verse 20-23......here we see more flesh & blood human populations pouring into this city to be educated by its inhabitants........in the meantime people are still dying from old age. When do they get a resurrection?

So far my tally of resurrections has increased to four. There's got to be one at the end of the New Jerusalem age for whatever length of time that will be. A thousand more years? A million? A lot of people living & then dying, just like they do now.



« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 09:57:02 PM by Paul L »