heaven at death for believers?

[ded2daworld]

Over the years, Christians have debated whether one goes immediately to be with Jesus at death or if their is a wait until "the last trump" when saints are resurrected from their graves. I've gone back and forth on this for years because both sides have supporting scripture. I read verses this morning and I think it cleared it up for me. I'm not saying I'm definitely right but it is what I currently believe. Here are the verses. Youngs literal translation Heb 12:22-23 (emphasis mine)

"22 But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers,(angels)
23 to the company and assembly of the first-born in heaven enrolled, and to God the judge of all, and to spirits of righteous men made perfect,"

These that have died - they come to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem where there are a whole lot of angels.
To those that are the firstborn (firstfruits?) of the heavenly enrolled (I believe that's us that believe in this life before death)
to God and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect

When Paul said no man has ascended except Jesus who descended, and yet said If I die I will be with Christ implied immediacy)

IMO, the answer to this dichotomy, is that our spirit goes to heaven at death, "The spirit returns to God where it came from"
our spirit is made perfect and at the last trump our bodies will be resurrected and our spirits will then be re-united with our bodies. This would explain Saul seeing Samuel after death, Moses and Elijah at the mount of transfiguration, Elijah and Elisha ALL apparently in "heaven" yet not actually having "ascended" in bodily form.
Thoughts? Mine change on minor doctrinal things like this. (I don't know it can even be called a minor doctrine)

[Molly]

Yep.   

It is our soul he is saving.




For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
 
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
 
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
 
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
 
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
 
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
 
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
 
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

--2 Cor 5

[ded2daworld]

Thank you Molly,
I guess I was too influenced by verses that said "The dead know nothing, neither do they have any part in this world"
Yet Saul called up Samuel so I wasn't sure.

[Molly]

Remember Jesus said, Our friend Lazarus is asleep.  Let's go wake him up.

But we will be fully clothed, in the company of Christ, with the house that is prepared for us in heaven.


20 My deep desire and hope is that I shall never fail in my duty, but that at all times, and especially right now, I shall be full of courage, so that with my whole being I shall bring honor to Christ, whether I live or die. 21 For what is life? To me, it is Christ. Death, then, will bring more. 22 But if by continuing to live I can do more worthwhile work, then I am not sure which I should choose. 23 I am pulled in two directions. I want very much to leave this life and be with Christ, which is a far better thing; 24 but for your sake it is much more important that I remain alive.

--Phil 1



if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also.  Jn 14:3

[ded2daworld]

But it doesn't say where the spirit of Lazarus was during that 4 days and there is no record of Lazarus saying anything about what happened. - That's why I was tending to go with the dead no nothing.
Granted, Jesus did not go straight to the Father at death but Jesus is always the exception.
Is it possible the Father kept the spirit of Lazarus with his body knowing what would be happening?

[Molly]

A man named Lazarus, who lived in Bethany, became sick. Bethany was the town where Mary and her sister Martha lived. (2 This Mary was the one who poured the perfume on the Lord's feet and wiped them with her hair; it was her brother Lazarus who was sick.) 3 The sisters sent Jesus a message: "Lord, your dear friend is sick."

4 When Jesus heard it, he said, "The final result of this sickness will not be the death of Lazarus; this has happened in order to bring glory to God, and it will be the means by which the Son of God will receive glory."

5 Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 Yet when he received the news that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was for two more days. 7 Then he said to the disciples, "Let us go back to Judea."

8 "Teacher," the disciples answered, "just a short time ago the people there wanted to stone you; and are you planning to go back?"

9 Jesus said, "A day has twelve hours, doesn't it? So those who walk in broad daylight do not stumble, for they see the light of this world. 10 But if they walk during the night they stumble, because they have no light." 11 Jesus said this and then added, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I will go and wake him up."

12 The disciples answered, "If he is asleep, Lord, he will get well."

13 Jesus meant that Lazarus had died, but they thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So Jesus told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, 15 but for your sake I am glad that I was not with him, so that you will believe. Let us go to him."

16 Thomas (called the Twin) said to his fellow disciples, "Let us all go along with the Teacher, so that we may die with him!"

17 When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazarus had been buried four days before. 18 Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, 19 and many Judeans had come to see Martha and Mary to comfort them about their brother's death.

20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed in the house. 21 Martha said to Jesus, "If you had been here, Lord, my brother would not have died! 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask him for."

23 "Your brother will rise to life," Jesus told her.

24 "I know," she replied, "that he will rise to life on the last day."

25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me will live, even though they die; 26 and those who live and believe in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

--John 11

[ded2daworld]

Ah... so since Lazarus didn't actually die  "The final result of this sickness will not be the death of Lazarus" then wondering about where he was or went or did was irrelevant since Lazarus was not dead even though in verse 13+14 it says,
"Jesus meant that Lazarus had died, but they thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So Jesus told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead"
So, then the God of Moses, Isaac and Jacob, is the God of the living. So our dead flesh is awaiting the resurection while our continuing to live spirit is with God... sounds good to me.

[Molly]

He mentions two conditions:

1) those who die, believe in me, and live

2) those who live and believe in me and never die



If there's a third choice, he's not mentioning it here.

[ded2daworld]

Probably because we either live or die.

[victoriousgospel]

He mentions two conditions:

1) those who die, believe in me, and live

2) those who live and believe in me and never die



If there's a third choice, he's not mentioning it here.

Wow, I've been thinking about this topic a lot lately, and JUST read these verses the other day. It's so clear cut here, I can't believe it didn't strike me! This is great, thank you!

[CHB]

Would someone please explain (1Thess:4:14-17) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not PREVENT THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds, to meet the Loard in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

CHB

[ded2daworld]

IMO,
Dead in Jesus will be resurrected,
they(dead in Jesus) will be resurrected just
prior to those (in Jesus)still alive on the earth.
We are going to meet Jesus in the clouds as he makes his descent to earth.

I know this bucks the traditional rapture scenario
but I don't think Jesus is going to come down, get those asleep in him
and those still alive in him, take them back up into heaven,
wait either 3 1/2 years or 7 years depending on the rapturist,
then come down again for a second final trumpet which is different than the first Final trumpet.

[CHB]

Ded,

I agree with what you said but I was referring to whether we go on to heaven when we die? This verse seems to contridict this idea.

CHB

[ded2daworld]

The answer is obviously yes and no
WE (our bodies) go into the earth or whatever happened to our bodies or cremation.
Regardless, our bodies Eccl "know nothing" and go downward (Stay on or in the earth)as do all animals. -Eccl again.
Our spirits rise and return to God immediately though it isn't clear what we will be doing while waiting to be reunited with our bodies at the resurrection.

I know this might not be clear the way I wrote it but I know exactly what I mean.

[Paul L]

[quote ]author=CHB link=topic=10823.msg144983#msg144983 date=1353353412]
Would someone please explain (1Thess:4:14-17) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS will God bring with him. [/quote]

He is not bringing "them which sleep" from heaven.......he is catching them up in the air just after he resurrects them from the earth at which time they get their new body...........secondly, a split few seconds or moments later those alive in Christ with earthly bodies get their change.....

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not PREVENT THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP.

"PREVENT" from the Greek means "precede". This conforms to what  is stated immediately below that the dead rise "FIRST", as within an orderly sequence of events to follow.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds, to meet the Loard in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

As is ennunciated by use of Then the sequence of transformed bodies rising from the earth begins, but none of these "in Christ" ever came from heaven. The "dead in Christ" must rise from the Earth, that can only mean they are resurrected with earthly flesh & blood bodies so that for a split second in time they will be exactly as their brethren still alive in their earthly bodies. Then after Christ has accounted for the total of all the earthly bodies of those once dead but now resurrected & those not requiring a resurrection, then the change of the bodies occur all at the same time.........that's the way I read it.     

[ded2daworld]

That could just as well be too.It does say He comes with his saints AND we will meet him in the air so maybe thats when body and spirit are reunited just opining.

[Lazarus Short]

As Jesus and the disciples were on the way back to Bethany, Jesus kept referring to Lazarus as "asleep."  The disciples were understandably confused, and they asked Jesus for an answer - was he alive or dead?  Jesus answered PLAINLY:  "Lazarus is dead."  He was dead.

Jeff said:  "Ah... so since Lazarus didn't actually die  "The final result of this sickness will not be the death of Lazarus"..."  Let me rephrase it so:  "The FINAL result of this sickness will not be the death of Lazarus."  There it is - Lazarus was dead, but it would not be the final result, just as we all die, but it is not the end.

Do we go to Heaven when we die?  No, we're dead, and the dead know nothing.  That is what the resurrection is for, as the example of Lazarus illustrates.  However, after we breathe our last, the very next thing we will be aware of is our life in newness, as if only the twinkling of an eye had passed.  So, it doesn't really matter at all!  Our life in the here-and-now is like the title page of some book which would fill the Library of Congress, and our death is like the turn of the page - no biggie...

That is how I understand it.

[Paul L]

Do we go to Heaven when we die?  No, we're dead, and the dead know nothing.  That is what the resurrection is for, as the example of Lazarus illustrates.  However, after we breathe our last, the very next thing we will be aware of is our life in newness, as if only the twinkling of an eye had passed.  So, it doesn't really matter at all!  Our life in the here-and-now is like the title page of some book which would fill the Library of Congress, and our death is like the turn of the page - no biggie...

That is how I understand it.

Yep me too.....except after the title page the book will be a lot bigger than the Library of Congress...thre will be no end of the numbers of pages.

[Lazarus Short]

Yep me too.....except after the title page the book will be a lot bigger than the Library of Congress...thre will be no end of the numbers of pages.

He shoots! He scores!!

[eaglesway]

Ded,

I agree with what you said but I was referring to whether we go on to heaven when we die? This verse seems to contridict this idea.

CHB

IMO, "Go to heaven" is a perspective that is traditional. It is not biblical. There is a veil. God separated the "waters above from the waters below". When Jesus returns it is written "the veil in the heavens will be rent and the sign of the son of man will appear in the heavens". In another place it is written, "the heavens will be rolled up like a scroll".

Remember Jacob,s ladder? Or when the "heavens opened and I saw visions of God?(Eze 1:1)"

After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
(Mat 3:16)

Remember when Peter preached, "this same Jesus whom you crucified God has raised from the dead and exalted Him to His right hand where He received the Holy SPirit and poured forth that which you now see and hear". Jesus is "in the bosom of the Father." "There will be no need for sun or stars because God is the light and the Lamb is the lamp in the midst thereof- Jesus will bring heaven with him because "in Him dwells the fulness of Deity in bodily form" and wherever He is God is in fulness overflowing- Jesus is the center of heaven and(IMO) the center of the universe :o)


And He *said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see the heavens opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."
(Joh 1:51)

There's Jacobs ladder again. Wherever Jesus was/is the heavens were opened and angels were ascending and descending. The same is true(IMO) whenever the church is "in the spirit" and set "on the Lampstand". "Thy kingdom come Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven is the prayer and that is what will be at some point - heaven on earth. the removal of the veil that separates the waters above from the waters below.

and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
(Act 7:56)

I may be dead wrong, but as  see it, there will be at least one veil removed at the end of this age, and heaven will come to earth with Jesus and the overcomers, and then, at the end of the millenial age another veil will be removed through the Great White Throne judgment and the lake of fire(perhaps involving another age or two, who knows, there are so few words on it :). At some point all veils(abolishment of rule, power and authority 1Cor 15) will be removed and God will be all in all- everyone will be filled up unto all the fulness of God.

IMO the dead in Christ preceding those who remain and are alive at His coming destroys the rapture doctrine, along with the last trumpet and "immediately after the tribulation of those days".


Paul was taken into the third heaven- how did he know it was the third heaven when he didn't even know if he was in the body or not in the body? Now thats a question that blows my mind HAHAHAH!

[Paul L]

author=eaglesway link=topic=10823.msg145093#msg145093 date=1353648508]

I may be dead wrong, but as  see it, there will be at least one veil removed at the end of this age, and heaven will come to earth

.....but this doesn't occur until after the millenium is concluded, this event follows Rev 20:2. Follow the timeline of 1000 year period: Satan leads Gog & Magog in an attempted invasion of Israel, Israel's Messiah thwarts the invasion (Ezek 38-39), then the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven & is placed on the new Earth & will encompass an area of almost 1500 square mile. But notice that the New Jerusalem is not "heaven" itself, but that the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven, Rev 21:2.

 

IMO the dead in Christ preceding those who remain and are alive at His coming destroys the rapture doctrine, along with the last trumpet and "immediately after the tribulation of those days".

I have been in a quandry for a long time about the pre-tribulation rapture, I have moments I believe it & moments I don't, depends on what I'm reading. The biggest problem I have for not believing in the rapture is the book of Revelation itself, it is entirely about the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy & the restoration of Israel.

The Body of Christ is nowhere present within the pages of Revelation simply because it is a book about the restoration of Israel, by contrast the Body of Christ is composed primarily of non-Israelites, this being the case, what's the point of having the Body of Christ present on the Earth if we are not "appointed unto wrath"? I presume the apostle Paul is referring to the "tribulation" as being that time of "wrath" to which Christ's body is not to be subjected. If this be the case, that explains why the term Body of Christ never appears anywhere in Revelation, it isn't present on the earth.

[eaglesway]

author=eaglesway link=topic=10823.msg145093#msg145093 date=1353648508]

I may be dead wrong, but as  see it, there will be at least one veil removed at the end of this age, and heaven will come to earth

.....but this doesn't occur until after the millenium is concluded, this event follows Rev 20:2. Follow the timeline of 1000 year period: Satan leads Gog & Magog in an attempted invasion of Israel, Israel's Messiah thwarts the invasion (Ezek 38-39), then the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven & is placed on the new Earth & will encompass an area of almost 1500 square mile. But notice that the New Jerusalem is not "heaven" itself, but that the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven, Rev 21:2.

 

IMO the dead in Christ preceding those who remain and are alive at His coming destroys the rapture doctrine, along with the last trumpet and "immediately after the tribulation of those days".

I have been in a quandry for a long time about the pre-tribulation rapture, I have moments I believe it & moments I don't, depends on what I'm reading. The biggest problem I have for not believing in the rapture is the book of Revelation itself, it is entirely about the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy & the restoration of Israel.

The Body of Christ is nowhere present within the pages of Revelation simply because it is a book about the restoration of Israel, by contrast the Body of Christ is composed primarily of non-Israelites, this being the case, what's the point of having the Body of Christ present on the Earth if we are not "appointed unto wrath"? I presume the apostle Paul is referring to the "tribulation" as being that time of "wrath" to which Christ's body is not to be subjected. If this be the case, that explains why the term Body of Christ never appears anywhere in Revelation, it isn't present on the earth.

Well, we all have many and varied opinions about the book of Revelations. When it was given, the messenger said, "Keep the words of this prophecy for the time is at hand". In my opinion the Apocalypse of John is primarily for the unfolding of mysteries about the Body of Christ, in ways that have been contemporary since it was given.

As to the rapture, it is a good discussion, maybe we should start a thread on it if the discussion can be had, not as a debate so much as presentations of opinions and individual points of view.

[eaglesway]

".....but this doesn't occur until after the millenium is concluded, this event follows Rev 20:2. Follow the timeline of 1000 year period: Satan leads Gog & Magog in an attempted invasion of Israel, Israel's Messiah thwarts the invasion (Ezek 38-39), then the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven & is placed on the new Earth & will encompass an area of almost 1500 square mile. But notice that the New Jerusalem is not "heaven" itself, but that the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven, Rev 21:2."- Paul L

 IMO, the new Jerusalem is already "descending out of heaven"(DAWN, being revealed among men)

22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

The full revelation of it(NOON) will not, IMO, be a big building. It is being built now, of living stones, it has foundations in the heavens, built upon the foundations of the 12 apostles(their teaching and revelation), etc.

I also don't believe there will be a giant woman standing on the moon(rev 12), or a giant angel standing on the land and sea, clothed in clouds with a rainbow on his head and a little book in his hand(rev 10). These are pictures, IMO of the Bride and the ONE NEW MAN, who already are.

I do however believe that these aspects of the Body of Christ will be fully revealed before the conclusion of these last days...."early rain/ latter rain", etc.

Jesus said, "I am the bread that descends from heaven".....

Since angels ascended and descended upon Jesus when He was on earth BEFORE HE was glorified, it is safe to assume that since "evry eye will see Him" when he appears and" the veil of the heavens will be rolled back like a scroll", "the temple in heaven will be opened" and "the word of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea".... that a significant measure of heaven on earth will be realized even before Gog Magog.

There have been a number of veils removed already IMO, and I agree the final unveiling will occur, and the end of the millenial age, perhaps- but definitely after the lake of fire- death is a veil, and it will be the last to fall to Christ...... maybe

Because all rule power and authority are veils as well, and after death is destroyed Jesus will return the kingdom to the Father for the abolishing of all rule power and authority.......

You see, there are so many brief descriptions of vast subjects.

Perhaps we are all to confident in our opinions LOLOLOLOL

While I find these thrilling topics for discussion- I have very little interest in debating eschatology, since I don't believ anyone has the whole picture, and we share the part we have, and test all things among ourselves in love and humility- in order to learn more.

[Paul L]

author=eaglesway link=topic=10823.msg145101#msg145101 date=1353681055]

There have been a number of veils removed already IMO, and I agree the final unveiling will occur, and the end of the millenial age, perhaps- but definitely after the lake of fire- death is a veil, and it will be the last to fall to Christ......

Definitely "veils" started being removed at the moment of Christ's death when the veil inside the temple was rent from in half, opening the doors for "all".

Because all rule power and authority are veils as well, and after death is destroyed Jesus will return the kingdom to the Father for the abolishing of all rule power and authority.......

These are certainly impediments, but as to being a Biblical description of "veils" I'm not so sure about that.

You see, there are so many brief descriptions of vast subjects.

...that's for sure, and that is why there is such a quagmire about the "catching up" of the Body of Christ. If the Body is not caught up pre-tribulation, how does it escape "wrath" & is never mentioned in Revelation?

While I find these thrilling topics for discussion- I have very little interest in debating eschatology, since I don't believ anyone has the whole picture, and we share the part we have, and test all things among ourselves in love and humility- in order to learn more.

I certainly agree wholeheartedly with this.....especially when I can see both sides of the issue when it comes to the "rapture", it just simply is not clear, therefore I don't have a rigid opinion about it.

[ded2daworld]

Me too! I'm siding with the don't know for sure's on this one.
One thing I think I know - If the Bible isn't clear on a subject, either it doesn't matter what you know
or if you did know it wouldn't change anything in your spiritual walk.