Discussions Relating to Universal Reconciliation > Discussions on Universal Salvation

heaven at death for believers?

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ded2daworld:
Over the years, Christians have debated whether one goes immediately to be with Jesus at death or if their is a wait until "the last trump" when saints are resurrected from their graves. I've gone back and forth on this for years because both sides have supporting scripture. I read verses this morning and I think it cleared it up for me. I'm not saying I'm definitely right but it is what I currently believe. Here are the verses. Youngs literal translation Heb 12:22-23 (emphasis mine)

"22 But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers,(angels)
23 to the company and assembly of the first-born in heaven enrolled, and to God the judge of all, and to spirits of righteous men made perfect,"

These that have died - they come to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem where there are a whole lot of angels.
To those that are the firstborn (firstfruits?) of the heavenly enrolled (I believe that's us that believe in this life before death)
to God and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect

When Paul said no man has ascended except Jesus who descended, and yet said If I die I will be with Christ implied immediacy)

IMO, the answer to this dichotomy, is that our spirit goes to heaven at death, "The spirit returns to God where it came from"
our spirit is made perfect and at the last trump our bodies will be resurrected and our spirits will then be re-united with our bodies. This would explain Saul seeing Samuel after death, Moses and Elijah at the mount of transfiguration, Elijah and Elisha ALL apparently in "heaven" yet not actually having "ascended" in bodily form.
Thoughts? Mine change on minor doctrinal things like this. (I don't know it can even be called a minor doctrine)

Molly:
Yep.   :thumbsup:

It is our soul he is saving.




For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
 
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
 
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
 
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
 
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
 
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
 
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
 
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

--2 Cor 5

ded2daworld:
Thank you Molly,
I guess I was too influenced by verses that said "The dead know nothing, neither do they have any part in this world"
Yet Saul called up Samuel so I wasn't sure. :thumbsup:

Molly:
Remember Jesus said, Our friend Lazarus is asleep.  Let's go wake him up.

But we will be fully clothed, in the company of Christ, with the house that is prepared for us in heaven.


20 My deep desire and hope is that I shall never fail in my duty, but that at all times, and especially right now, I shall be full of courage, so that with my whole being I shall bring honor to Christ, whether I live or die. 21 For what is life? To me, it is Christ. Death, then, will bring more. 22 But if by continuing to live I can do more worthwhile work, then I am not sure which I should choose. 23 I am pulled in two directions. I want very much to leave this life and be with Christ, which is a far better thing; 24 but for your sake it is much more important that I remain alive.

--Phil 1



if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also.  Jn 14:3

ded2daworld:
But it doesn't say where the spirit of Lazarus was during that 4 days and there is no record of Lazarus saying anything about what happened. - That's why I was tending to go with the dead no nothing.
Granted, Jesus did not go straight to the Father at death but Jesus is always the exception.
Is it possible the Father kept the spirit of Lazarus with his body knowing what would be happening?

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