Author Topic: Has anyone ever thought of this?  (Read 5981 times)

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Offline Nathan

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Has anyone ever thought of this?
« on: September 06, 2011, 06:11:41 PM »
I was approached by someone with an extremely interesting question.  I'm really curious what you guys would say to this question.

We say that because of the cross experience, God did what he set out to do and he saved the whole world.  Our final destination has been taken care of.

The question is . . .what happened to the people who died "before" the cross?  Weren't they already in heaven at the time?  If so, then why the need for the cross if they were already in heaven to begin with?

Offline thinktank

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2011, 07:06:59 PM »
I don't believe they were in heaven, but in the kingdom of hades. The blood allows them to enter heaven and be with Christ.

However God promised the Israelite patriachs they would enter his rest if they continued in holyness. They enter via the faith of the promise that God made them.

Some say it could be a promise for the future, but I have seen the scripture where it says those who do evil shall not enter my rest.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2011, 07:20:44 PM »
Another soul sleep thread  :laughing7:

If the Bible teaches soul sleep the answer is those people were in their graves.
If they are in heaven then: The Lamb was slain at the foundation of the world.
What exactly does that mean?
I think it's about the plan that was made then. But that would mean salvation comes before the sacrifice. OTOH that plan wasn't really a plan (as in possibility).

John 3 [ACV]
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

Below two quotes from Cardinal. (no linear time for God)

Quote
I had a vision once in which I saw Him on the cross and there was like an explosion in my spirit for lack of a better word, and this explosion was a near instantaneous revelation of EVERY SCENE in the Word faster than the human mind can grasp. What I saw with the eye of the Spirit, was scenes going to my left of field of vision from the cross, as scenes in the OT. What I saw to my right, was scenes out of the NT. They both "exploded" out of that cross scene in opposite directions all at once.

What was given to me to understand was this was the Lamb slain from the foundation, and all those things that had the cross as their origination point, were EXPRESSED in time, but originated in the Spirit, in which there IS NO TIME. And as such, in the Spirit, ALL HAPPENED AT ONCE IN THAT INSTANT.

This is nearly impossible for us to wrap our minds around (and for me still, and I saw it), but when He said it is finished, He wasn't speaking about what was going on in time right there, but rather bearing witness to what had ALREADY HAPPENED. I hope this makes sense; it is so hard to express certain things and this is on the top of my list of nearly impossible, LOL. Blessings....

Quote
This is something the Lord showed me. Imagine a cross. Then imagine an explosion of God's Spirit coming out from that cross image. Then imagine that everything that explodes to the left of the cross is the past, ie. everything that happened before the cross. Then imagine that everything that explodes to the right of the cross is the future, ie. everything that happened after the cross.

We think that time began in a straight linear progression, beginning with the foundation of the world, then Adam, ect. but it began with the Lamb being slain, ie. the cross before the beginning, and everything that ever was or ever will be, came out of that all at once, going in both directions at once.

So in the Spirit, as there is no time, He is both the beginning and the end, the Alpha and the Omega, the left and the right. But because we are finite, "trapped" in one section of the "explosion" by this flesh that is subject to sin and death, we perceive it as past and future, but to Him it is all the same. Therefore the degree to which we overcome sin and death thru His Spirit, is the degree to which we free ourselves thru His Spirit to see as He sees. No wonder then He said, we perish without a vision. Blessings.....

As to your question: Could it mean time didn't start with Adam and Eve but starting from the cross past and future were created....?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 07:24:12 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2011, 07:26:19 PM »
Cardinal,

I guess the thiefs that where crucified left and right of Jesus tell the same story...

Quote
Imagine a cross.
....left of the cross is the past, ie. everything that happened before the cross.
....the right of the cross is the future

Quote
everything that ever was or ever will be, came out of that all at once, going in both directions at once.

Quote
we perceive it as past and future, but to Him it is all the same.

So the cross is the center and time flows into the past and the future.
We are trapped in the sinful left flow towards the past.
Correct?
But if for Him there is no past and present. Doesn't that mean that the sinful left/past always will exist? The sinful left has much pain and tears. But those will be wiped away. (only on the right side?)

:cloud9: You know, I was going to add that about the 2 thieves, but deleted it. Now I know why; you were supposed to "get" it and bring it forth.  :thumbsup:

And no, we are, as spirit, "trapped" purposefully, in whatever time period we are existing in. What I described is a vision He gave me in prayer, where I saw Him on the cross and the "explosion" for lack of a better word, I saw in the Spirit scenes in time going in both directions at once, at lightning speed, with the Spirit giving me understanding on a particular scene of His choice, here and there.

We see the cross as that one time natural event that happened 2000 + years ago, but in reality it happened at the beginning, in the split second BEFORE time existed, and ALL came out of that. It's hard to wrap your mind around without a "picture", or at least it is for me. Blessings.....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Nathan

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2011, 08:53:26 PM »
So, what I'm reading here is one thought is that in the Old Testament, when one died their soul remains with their body in the grave, no pain or suffering, it's just . .. a state of dormancy.  But then when Jesus fulfilled the flesh side of redemption, those in their dormant state resurrected into a spiritual state?  And . . .this state of dormancy, is that for those that adhered to the levitical laws?  Or is this "all" who died before the cross?

I have to tell you guys this . . .I'm about to bust!!  I have four children, two twin boys who are 6, a daughter who is about to be 19 and another who'll soon be 20.  The older girls have never embraced much of anything when it comes to the things of God.  They've made some questionable relationship choices but as parents, my wife and I have done our best to love past the areas of conflict.  The girls are currently living with my wife's widowed mother as well as the younger one's boyfriend.  The older daughter has a job at the hospital that is 6 minutes away from their house and the other daughter and her boyfriend both are going to college there in town and both also have jobs.  The sisters are very close . . .always have been.

But this past weekend . . .it appears God has exploded in all three of them.  They love playing cards with us . . . it's always been that connection where regardless of how things are going with us in other areas, "that" is one thing that's always remained a constant.  It's not that we never got along, it's just that I'm very passionate with my own relationship with God and they're . . .not.  But Sunday night they called up and wanted to come over and play cards . . .we started to but it only lasted about 15 minutes . .then they began asking questions about EVERYTHING.  The more I tried to explain things, the more interested and excited they got.  It got to the point that one would as a question only to be interrupted by another with another question . .then when I did try to give them what I saw, I'd be interrupted by more and more questions . .this went on Sunday night for 4 hours!!!  I could easily see, my wife and I both could see that something happened in our kitchen with them that night . . . no one was led through the sinner's prayer, no one talked about the threats of hell . . .they were actually finishing my sentences on the revelational stuff before I did! 

Then we get another call from them last night . .again . .they want to play cards . .and this time, my younger daughter said, she "really" wants to "play cards".  So we did . . .try . . .but it wasn't long before they started asking more and more questions.  The one I posed on this thread was one of them.  I seriously didn't have an answer and told them that this does happen a lot because once you enter into the realm of the spiritual arena, you don't think of how everything will apply.  You don't think to ask every question, so when some of them come up, if I don't see an answer, I need to back out of it and "hover over the face of the deep" on whatever the topic is and see what God brings up.

I had already started to post a new thread on this but backed out of it because at that point and time, I had "no" idea and I didn't want to adopt someone else's idea, I wanted God to lead me through his means rather than mine.  So . . .obviously something changed there because I obviously posted it.

Here's what I'm looking at.  In the Old Covenant, those that lived were bound, they were under the constant influence of carnality at every turn.  The law was given, not to save them from their carnality, but to do two things.  One, to reveal to them, to prove to them, the impossibility to gain their righteousness through the works of the law.  And two, it pointed to the ONE who "could" make that righteousness a reality. 

But question wasn't about the living as much as it was about the dead.  "If" I believe that God's love had no intention of letting ANY man, be it by way of old covenant or new covenant, no one was going to find themselves in eternal death or darkness in the first place then maybe the cross isn't about that at all either.  Everything is already completed in the spirit before it is in the flesh.  yes and amen to that.  And if that's the case, then the effects of the cross that did manifest a mere 2,000 years ago wasn't about where the dead were "before" it manifested at all.

What is the core message of the cross?  Power over sin?  Orrrrr . . . .RESURRECTION over death.  I'd always said before that it wasn't so much about Jesus having to die for our sin, but instead, Jesus was passionate about bringing us the power of resurrection.  But in order to bring resurrection to us, he first had to die "as" us.  It's back to that Peter experience where he just had his name changed because God was transforming his nature and identity.  But when Jesus proclaimed that he was now going to go to Jerusalem to die, be buried and then rise again, all Peter heard was Jesus was going to die.

It's not about his death . . .it's about his resurrection.  Even though the old covenant people, Gentile and Jew both, died and went to what could be classified as heaven, there was no resurrection for them to become complete again as God's created beings . . .we're only complete when our spirits are alive in these bodies.  When the bodies experience physical death, a separation occurs.  Rendering us as whole beings "incomplete".  Which is why the message of returning to these bodies that become transformed into "new" bodies is so important.  It is truly as they say, physical death is not the beginning.  We're not going to spend eternity in heaven while we remain separated from these bodies which again are TEMPLES of the Holy Ghost.  Jesus is all about resurrecting his temples . . .he's all about resurrection.  "That's" the difference between the dead of old and the dead in the new . . .  it's about "resurrection". 

No other belief system in existence claims there's gonna  be a resurrected body that we'll return to.  Only Christ can pull that one off.

Where were the dead then?  I believe they were in heaven just as those after the cross were.  Everything is already finished in the spirit before "and" after the cross.  The cross wasn't to usher in a new way for heaven to be structured as much as what he did on the cross was the final step in preparation for ALL of God's created beings to then become enabled to experience the resurrection of these old bodies of flesh and death into new bodies of spirit and life.

For me, the passing from life to death is the same as passing from this atmosphere to the outer atmosphere.  The ozone layer burns everything that passes through it.  The fire of God purges everyone who passes through him, from the realm of death (natural) into life (spiritual).  So regardless of what covenant one lived through, they they physically died, they passed through the spiritual ozone layer, purging all carnality from them enabling them to dwell in God and God in them.

I may need to tweak my own terminology on the attributes of the cross myself.  In that what Jesus did on the cross made it possible for all the world to be in his presence when they die.  I don't think that's entirely the reason because I think now, that was already the case before the cross.  What the cross brought was not the enablement to save the whole world due to his death . . .but instead, the enablement to resurrect the whole world by him "overcoming" that death and ushering in resurrection life.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2011, 05:34:51 AM »
"The question is . . .what happened to the people who died "before" the cross?  Weren't they already in heaven at the time?  If so, then why the need for the cross if they were already in heaven to begin with?"

They died not receiving the Promise, Heb 11:13  In faith died all these, not having received the promises, but from afar having seen them, and having been persuaded, and having saluted them , and having confessed that strangers and sojourners they are upon the earth,

They are dead in the grave[the pit, sheol, the place of the unseen] H7585 she'ôl  she'ôl hades or the world of the dead: grave, hell, pit. G86 hadēs properly unseen, that is, "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

Dead: H4191 mûth  A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); G3498 nekros   (a corpse); dead (literally or figuratively;

Joh 3:13  And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.



Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2011, 05:58:48 PM »
Sigh . . .cherry pickers . . . You really would get a much better picture of things if you'd stop separating fragments of a message to make up a message of your own.

Hebrews 11
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, (your quote) but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
 14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
 15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
 16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
[/u]

You continue to build your doctrine according to what your mind has convinced you that it's saying something that is again, taken out of context as well,  I'm not buying into it though.  I still think the message Jesus was giving in John isn't proof that people don't go to heaven when they die .. there are just too many other Scriptures indicating otherwise.

You've done nothing to explain my issues with the fact that Peter, James and John all saw Moses and Elijah standing with Jesus . . .ALIVE . . .and . . .IN A HEAVENLY STATE!!  If Jesus was trying to tell us that NO MEN ever go to heaven except Jesus . . .then please explain what Moses and Elijah were doing if they're supposed to be in this  . . .state of nothingness? 

Samuel was brought back up by Saul's desparations as well.  But I would LOVE to see you explain away Moses and Elijah . . .they were not in the flesh . .. do explain.

Offline onlytruth

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2011, 07:09:55 PM »
Question, if we walked in the spirit(understanding) would we be able to move through time as well just like the men of faith?

Offline Nathan

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2011, 07:20:13 PM »
Who was it that did that in the New Testament?  He baptized a Eunuch and as the guy came up out of the water he transported through time and space and appeared 20 miles away.  Can't think of the guy's name.  PHILIP!!

But I also believe that's how faith works, when we walk in the spirit, we can see the end of a situation from where we are standing.  When we pray for healing, we wait until we can "see" someone healed, at which point we call that out to where we are standing.  Faith is seeing spiritually what isn't there naturally.  But we can then identify that and bring it into existence. 

I think the church kinda smudged this up a bit with the "name it - claim it" doctrines though.

Offline Molly

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2011, 07:42:45 PM »
Who was it that did that in the New Testament?  He baptized a Eunuch and as the guy came up out of the water he transported through time and space and appeared 20 miles away.  Can't think of the guy's name.  PHILIP!!

But I also believe that's how faith works, when we walk in the spirit, we can see the end of a situation from where we are standing.  When we pray for healing, we wait until we can "see" someone healed, at which point we call that out to where we are standing.  Faith is seeing spiritually what isn't there naturally.  But we can then identify that and bring it into existence. 

I think the church kinda smudged this up a bit with the "name it - claim it" doctrines though.
I went through a newage phase a long time ago, and new age uses the name it/claim it doctrine but removes the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

And, guess what?  It works.  The power is there but without Christ we are like 3 year olds with a loaded gun.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2011, 08:19:23 PM »
Sigh . . .cherry pickers . . . You really would get a much better picture of things if you'd stop separating fragments of a message to make up a message of your own.

Hebrews 11
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, (your quote) but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
 14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
 15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
 16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
[/u]

You continue to build your doctrine according to what your mind has convinced you that it's saying something that is again, taken out of context as well,  I'm not buying into it though.  I still think the message Jesus was giving in John isn't proof that people don't go to heaven when they die .. there are just too many other Scriptures indicating otherwise.

You've done nothing to explain my issues with the fact that Peter, James and John all saw Moses and Elijah standing with Jesus . . .ALIVE . . .and . . .IN A HEAVENLY STATE!!  If Jesus was trying to tell us that NO MEN ever go to heaven except Jesus . . .then please explain what Moses and Elijah were doing if they're supposed to be in this  . . .state of nothingness? 

Samuel was brought back up by Saul's desparations as well.  But I would LOVE to see you explain away Moses and Elijah . . .they were not in the flesh . .. do explain.

This not my quote it belongs to the writer of Heb.Hebrews 11
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, (your quote)

"there are just too many other Scriptures indicating otherwise."  WHERE ARE THE SCRIPTURES?

And it is not "my" doctrine.  " But I would LOVE to see you explain away Moses and Elijah . . .they were not in the flesh . .. do explain.
Matthew 17:9

(ASV)  And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead.

(CLV) And, at their descending out of the mountain, Jesus directs them, saying, "Now you may tell no one of the vision till the Son of Mankind may be roused from among the dead."

(KJV)  And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

(Rotherham)  And, as they were coming down out of the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying—Unto no one, may ye tell the vision, until the Son of Man, from among the dead shall arise.

(YLT)  And as they are coming down from the mount, Jesus charged them, saying, `Say to no one the vision, till the Son of Man out of the dead may rise.'

Vision=G3705

Saul when to a witch.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline CHB

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2011, 08:21:01 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
You've done nothing to explain my issues with the fact that Peter, James and John all saw Moses and Elijah standing with Jesus . . .ALIVE . . .and . . .IN A HEAVENLY STATE!!  If Jesus was trying to tell us that NO MEN ever go to heaven except Jesus . . .then please explain what Moses and Elijah were doing if they're supposed to be in this  . . .state of nothingness? 

Samuel was brought back up by Saul's desparations as well.  But I would LOVE to see you explain away Moses and Elijah . . .they were not in the flesh . .. do explain.

Hi Nathan,

Both of these can be explained away if one chooses.

CHB



A Question about the Transfiguration

Commentary for June 14, 2009 — Moses and Elijah Are Not Alive
A question was asked regarding the state of the dead relative to Moses and Elijah appearing
with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. Of course, Moses and Elijah each had been dead
for many centuries.
Question: Please can you answer/comment: If we are destined to remain in our graves with
no senses at all until the resurrection, how do you explain the appearance of Moses and Elijah
with Jesus at the transfiguration? Thank you.
Answer: The transfiguration of Jesus happened as presented:
"And after six days Jesus takes Peter, James, and John his brother, and brings them
up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face
did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there
appeared unto them Moses and Elias [Elijah] talking with him."
• Matthew 17:1–3
Parallel passages occur of Mark 9:2–9 and Luke 9:28–36. In the Matthew account the quality
and nature of what Peter, James, and John saw is precisely stated: the appearance of Moses
and Elijah with Jesus at the transfiguration was a VISION:
"Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."
• Matthew 17:9
In the parallel passages in Mark and Luke the word "vision" in Greek is not used. The event
had every indication of a physical reality, even to the extent that Peter wanted to build shelters
for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah (Matthew 17:4; Mark 9:5; and Luke 9:33). Perhaps Peter thought
they would all spend several days there, as Moses did on Mount Sinai.
The Mark and Luke passages describe what was seen, but did not explain how they saw it.
Matthew 17:9 explained how they saw it. In fact, as a result of the vision the three apostles
asked questions among themselves about the resurrection from the dead1:
"And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell
no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the
rising from the dead should mean."
• Mark 9:9–10
The Word "Vision" in Matthew 17:9
The same Greek word translated "vision" in the King James Version for Matthew 17:9 is found
in Acts 2:17, 7:31, 9:10, 12, 10:3, 17, 19, 11:5, 12:9, 16:9–10, 18:9; and Revelation 9:17 in
various noun forms. In all but one of these occurrences the Greek word is translated "vision" in
the KJV. Only in Acts 7:31 is the word translated "sight" but "vision" is consistent and correct
as well. When Stephen spoke to the Sanhedrin he said:
1. Were they questioning whether Moses and Elijah were resurrected? That is doubtful because Jesus
told them (albeit in Matthew 17:9) that the appearance of the two prophets were not real but was a
vision. No, they were questioning "rising from the dead" of the Son of man and what it would mean.
"When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight [the vision]2: and as he drew near to
behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him ..."
• Acts 7:31
• In Acts 2:17 the apostle Peter uses the word "visions," plural, to describe what he
expected to occur in a few years, when he quoted the Book of Joel.
• Both Ananias' (Acts 9:10) and Saul (Acts 9:12) received a vision from God after
Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus.
• Both Cornelius (Acts 10:3) and Peter (Acts 10:17, 19, and 11:5) received a vision
from God.
• The apostle Paul had a vision instructing him to go to Macedonia (Acts 16:9–10).
• Paul later had a vision in Corinth (Acts 18:9).
• John saw horses in the vision of Revelation 9:17.3
What They Saw
What Peter, James, and John saw on the mount was a real event, they actually did see Moses
and Elijah, but they were not alive at that time. The apostles were shown a moving life-like
vision of the two prophets. Moses and Elijah continued to be dead and are dead at this
moment, just as King David is dead (Acts 2:29). Only Christ has risen from the dead and has
immortality (1 Timothy 6:16).
Moses and Elijah were not alive at that time. Jesus was not actually in His glory at that
moment; He only appeared to be in His glory in vision. Moses and Elijah appeared in the same
vision. Yet the vision was so real that Jesus even talked with them both (Matthew 17:3; Mark
9:4; and Luke 9:30).
The effect of all such visions are profound and significant. Each has every appearance of
reality. As a pale comparison, technology today can reproduce voices of people who are long
dead, movies can reproduce moving images of people long dead. Another way to describe
such a "vision" experienced by Peter, James, and John would be that it was like a vivid
holographic image or a three-dimensional movie surrounding the viewer with not just sights
and sounds, but even sensations of touch and smell and taste, all so real they seem to be
more than just a vision.4 Yet in Matthew 17:9 Jesus Himself called it a vision.
After that experience the apostles asked Jesus about Elijah:
"And his disciples asked him, saying, 'Why then say the scribes that Elias [Elijah]
must first come?' And Jesus answered and said unto them, 'Elias truly shall first
come, and restore all things.'"
• Matthew 17:10–11
For more details, especially about the two witnesses (of which Moses and Elijah were types),
and other information about the transfiguration episode, see Dr. Martin's information in the
article "The Elijah to Come."
David Sielaff
david@askelm.com
2. Stephen means that the burning bush that was not consumed in Exodus 3:1–12 was also a vision.
3. In Luke 1:22, 24:23 and 2 Corinthians 12:1 the King James Version uses the English "vision/visions"
to translate from a different Greek word than the one used in Matthew 17:9 and the other verses in
this Commentary.
4. The apostle Paul described something similar when he tells of an experience (the word translated
"vision" is from a different Greek word) in 2 Corinthians 12:1–4. In that instance Paul could not tell
whether he was in his body or outside of it when taken to the "third heaven"!

Offline Nathan

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2011, 10:05:14 PM »
This again is why it frustrates me when you embrace the literal, but as you wish . . .if you want literal reasoning then read Hebrews 11 and verse one of chapter 12 and THEN come back to me with your soul sleep doctrines because it's just not accurate to assume such a thing.  I'll make it even easier, I'll post the text in question . . .I'm highlighting the names so you get the idea just how many people you're trying to say are no longer in existence or are in soul sleep, and yet the author is saying just the opposite.

4 It was by faith that Abel brought a more acceptable offering to God than Cain did. Abel's offering gave evidence that he was a righteous man, and God showed his approval of his gifts. Although Abel is long dead, he still speaks to us by his example of faith.

5 It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying—"he disappeared, because God took him." For before he was taken up, he was known as a person who pleased God. 6 And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.

7 It was by faith that Noah built a large boat to save his family from the flood. He obeyed God, who warned him about things that had never happened before. By his faith Noah condemned the rest of the world, and he received the righteousness that comes by faith.

8 It was by faith that Abraham obeyed when God called him to leave home and go to another land that God would give him as his inheritance. He went without knowing where he was going. 9 And even when he reached the land God promised him, he lived there by faith—for he was like a foreigner, living in tents. And so did Isaac and Jacob, who inherited the same promise. 10 Abraham was confidently looking forward to a city with eternal foundations, a city designed and built by God.

11 It was by faith that even Sarah was able to have a child, though she was barren and was too old. She believed that God would keep his promise. 12 And so a whole nation came from this one man who was as good as dead—a nation with so many people that, like the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore, there is no way to count them.

13 All these people died still believing what God had promised them. They did not receive what was promised, but they saw it all from a distance and welcomed it. They agreed that they were foreigners and nomads here on earth. 14 Obviously people who say such things are looking forward to a country they can call their own. 15 If they had longed for the country they came from, they could have gone back. 16 But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17 It was by faith that Abraham offered Isaac as a sacrifice when God was testing him. Abraham, who had received God's promises, was ready to sacrifice his only son, Isaac, 18 even though God had told him, "Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted."[c] 19 Abraham reasoned that if Isaac died, God was able to bring him back to life again. And in a sense, Abraham did receive his son back from the dead.

20 It was by faith that Isaac promised blessings for the future to his sons, Jacob and Esau.

21 It was by faith that Jacob, when he was old and dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons and bowed in worship as he leaned on his staff.

22 It was by faith that Joseph, when he was about to die, said confidently that the people of Israel would leave Egypt. He even commanded them to take his bones with them when they left.

23 It was by faith that Moses' parents hid him for three months when he was born. They saw that God had given them an unusual child, and they were not afraid to disobey the king's command.

24 It was by faith that Moses, when he grew up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25 He chose to share the oppression of God's people instead of enjoying the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He thought it was better to suffer for the sake of Christ than to own the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking ahead to his great reward. 27 It was by faith that Moses left the land of Egypt, not fearing the king's anger. He kept right on going because he kept his eyes on the one who is invisible. 28 It was by faith that Moses commanded the people of Israel to keep the Passover and to sprinkle blood on the doorposts so that the angel of death would not kill their firstborn sons.

29 It was by faith that the people of Israel went right through the Red Sea as though they were on dry ground. But when the Egyptians tried to follow, they were all drowned.

30 It was by faith that the people of Israel marched around Jericho for seven days, and the walls came crashing down.

31 It was by faith that Rahab the prostitute was not destroyed with the people in her city who refused to obey God. For she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.


32 How much more do I need to say? It would take too long to recount the stories of the faith of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and all the prophets.[/b] 33 By faith these people overthrew kingdoms, ruled with justice, and received what God had promised them. They shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the flames of fire, and escaped death by the edge of the sword. Their weakness was turned to strength. They became strong in battle and put whole armies to flight. 35 Women received their loved ones back again from death.

But others were tortured, refusing to turn from God in order to be set free. They placed their hope in a better life after the resurrection. 36 Some were jeered at, and their backs were cut open with whips. Others were chained in prisons. 37 Some died by stoning, some were sawed in half,[d] and others were killed with the sword. Some went about wearing skins of sheep and goats, destitute and oppressed and mistreated. 38 They were too good for this world, wandering over deserts and mountains, hiding in caves and holes in the ground.

39 All these people earned a good reputation because of their faith, yet none of them received all that God had promised. 40 For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us.


Are you following this?? I don't understand why the translators chose to divide the chapters here, but . . .

Here's where it was all building up to . . .

Hebrews 12
1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us. 2 We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith.

So can we put this soul sleep thing to rest already???
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 10:10:15 PM by Nathan »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2011, 10:29:32 PM »
Friend Nathan, you printed it, did you not see it?

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

That as I understand it is the payment or wage for sin, and Rom 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
And Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There is no such thing as "soul sleep,"  on that we can agree.
Ecc 12:7  And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.
Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20  The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."


And a big Amen for this.... GLORY! :dsunny:

Hebrews 12
1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us. 2 We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2011, 11:12:15 PM »
Of course they died, that isn't the question, the issue is "where are they now?"  And I'm submitting to you that they are not "nonexistent" but that they are living beings without bodily forms . .they are spirits in heaven with the Father NOW.  Just because their spirit left their earthly bodies didn't mean they stopped existing.  The promises they were given weren't things they are still waiting for, it was a spiritual thing, again, for your head, I'll post this but it's not going to do much good because God doesn't speak to my head, he speaks to my heart, my head will just argue back.  Just as we're seeing here . . .our minds CAN ALWAYS find ways to explain stuff away.  That's why it's so important we have a SPIRITUAL experience rather than a learning one.

I apologize for my tone . . . I don't mean to come across as critical or harsh.  As you can easily see, I've still the need to work on delivery of what I'm seeing rather than turning into personal attacks.

 1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

Six days after what?  This is really where the importance of spiritual vision in "our" hearts needs to come into play.  It wasn't a cooincidence it was six days.  It could have been 5, or 7, but it was 6.  What does six represent?  The number of MAN.  God was about to reveal the seventh day to the Disciples "man" mentality.  Peter had just gotten rebuked from trying to keep Jesus from fulfilling his promise  Nuts . . .I gotta finish this tomorrow . . .

 2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

 3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

 4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

 5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

 6And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

 7And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

 8And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

 9And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

 10And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

 11And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

 12But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

 13Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Offline Eduard

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2011, 11:34:10 PM »
This is a very interesting thread, I've also wondered about this issue and I love reading your opinions on it.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 11:37:59 PM by Eduard »
Micah 7:7

But as for me, I will look to the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God will hear me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2011, 11:45:29 PM »
Yes, perhaps this is your mindset, not to be to forward, " .our minds CAN ALWAYS find ways to explain stuff away.  That's why it's so important we have a SPIRITUAL experience rather than a learning one.

I had thought that I answered this question, "Of course they died, that isn't the question, the issue is "where are they now?""

They are DEAD and in the grave.
Should you be able to show me, "I still think the message Jesus was giving in John isn't proof that people don't go to heaven when they die .. there are just too many other Scriptures indicating otherwise.
these scriptures?
The wages of sin is DEATH, ALL have sinned.....

Matt.17:2-   WAS A VISION, now you say you desire the "spiritual," well this transfiguration was a spiritual vision.

You tone is fine, real good. I realize that the number 6 represents man, were I to suggest[using your premise of man] then the number of the MANKIND..[man G444 anthrōpos manfaced, that is, a human being: not A man]

Note Definition of ANTHROPOLOGY
: the science of human beings; especially : the study of human beings and their ancestors through time and space and in relation to physical character, environmental and social relations, and culture

This is NOT a single man but MANKIND, with this is mind a correct translation would be (CLV) Here is wisdom. Let him who has a mind calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is the number of mankind, and its number is six hundred sixty-six."

[Check out "man" in Revelation see the other use.]

And notice the number is the number of the "wild beast." now I know there who some cannot except that truth that man is a beast.
Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart: It is on account of the sons of humanity That the One, Elohim, seeks to manifest them And to show them that they themselves are beasts."
Ecc 3:19 For the destiny of the sons of humanity And the destiny of the beast, It is one destiny for them; As death is for this one, so is death for that one, And one spirit is for all; There is no advantage for the human over the beast, For the whole is vanity."
Ecc 3:20 All are going to one place; All have come from the soil, and all return to the soil."



Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2011, 04:56:30 PM »
Michah, it's clear we're not going to agree on this issue.  Our bases are just too far apart.  You can't seem to grasp what I'm trying to tell you.  I understand Scripture "appears" to tell "you" that once you're dead, your dead.  But if you truly had a grip on the nature of God, you'd then know that once "his" life births in us, there is no place for death.  Yes, these mortal bodies return back to the earth from where they came.  But "I" am not flesh.  And the life he births in us is not flesh but spiritu.  "I" am spirit that is currently residing in this TEMPORARY body of flesh.  When this body takes it's last breath, that is not the end of "me".  That is merely the end of my time in this temporary body.

You want to claim that because those guys saw what they saw was a vision then it means it wasn't real.  Tell that to Peter!  God doesn't reveal to us a vision of his nature if any part of that vision isn't true.  He's not going to show me a vision of Elijah and Moses being alive if they are actually dead.

My point on the number six was not trying to prove because the number of six pertains to MAN that what happened on the mount of transfiguration was literal . . .that's twisting things into whatever one would then desire.  My point to the number 6 was that it's a spiritual signpost for those who would choose to see it as such, to take a closer look at what was about to unfold.  It was "after" six days . . .it was "beyond" the day's of labor.  What was about to transpire was going to be something outside of natural reason and logic.  The transfiguration truly was not a natural thing people do.  Jesus was allowing the three disciples to see something only those who have the intimacy with the Father could be able to see.

I've been trying to get "you" to see this as well but you would rather reject it than receive it.  You would rather I receive your opinion of death rather than you accept my belief of life . . .that alone should speak volumes as to what this conversation is all about. 

I'm still scratching my head on your "re"quoting Hebrews 12:1 that says we're surrounded by all those dead people "you" claim no longer exist.  You make no sense.  I don't understand how even you could quote the same Scripture that contradicts your point of view and imply it's supporting it instead. :dontknow:

And CHB, I disagree with the commentary as well, the guy is using logic and reason all through his explanation.  Not only that, this resurrection thing where you all are saying Jesus is the only one experiencing it just isn't true either.  What was pasted as comentary stated this as well.

Only Christ has risen from the dead and has immortality Really?  What about the guy that was in a tomb already when Elisha was dead and his body bumped the carcass, bringing the other guy back to life?  What of the little child Elijah laid on top of and he sneezed 7 times.  What of Lasarus?  What of those that experience a resurrection at the point when Jesus died and they walked back into the city?

Imortality is IN us all!  That's what Christ is all about.  There is a spiritual resurrection that happens within us, and there is also a physcal resurrection that has happened on occasion but will be experience by all men when the time for that arrives.  Our bodies return to the earth, our souls, like a shadow on a cloudy day, no longer manifest the fact that our spirit is in our body, but our spirit continues on.  Life is a gift, and like all other gifts from God, it's unrepentant.  It's forever.  It's eternal.  When we die, we live.  That's both spiritually and literally.

Paul even talked about his desire to be free from these bodies of conformity as they don't allow us the freedom our spirits long for.  Why would Paul long to have life if it meant he was merely gonig to a state of nothingness until all things were complete thousands of years later?  Is it God's nature to put us back to sleep after we've left this realm of death?  You can be dead if you want, but I choose to cross over and be in the presence of the Father along with all the others who've crossed over before me.

Death . . .where is your sting?  Grave where is your victory?  If we can over come sin and death through Christ while being alive in the realm of death, why is it such a stretch to see that we'll be out of the grave's reach once we make the transition from this realm of death into the realm of life?  Are we to temporarly lose the life in us that God gave in the first place?  Is life eternal or isn't it?  You claim it is, but by your own confession of death, you live as though it isn't.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2011, 06:50:39 PM »
"You want to claim that because those guys saw what they saw was a vision then it means it wasn't real." Nathan

No it was "real" do you not believe that spirit is real. Yet it was a vision.

"I'm still scratching my head on your "re"quoting Hebrews 12:1 that says we're surrounded by all those dead people "you" claim no longer exist.  You make no sense.  I don't understand how even you could quote the same Scripture that contradicts your point of view and imply it's supporting it instead. :dontknow:" Nathan

[b]Witness: G3144  martus  a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [generally]); by analogy a "martyr": [/b]

 Definition of MARTYR : a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion
They are a great cloud of witnesses.

""I" am spirit that is currently residing in this TEMPORARY body of flesh.  When this body takes it's last breath, that is not the end of "me".  That is merely the end of my time in this temporary body." Nathan

That is correct, "That is merely the end of my time in this temporary body." as you await the rising again, in the grave.

"You would rather I receive your opinion of death rather than you accept my belief of life . . .that alone should speak volumes as to what this conversation is all about."Nathan

I dont have an opinion of death, the Bible defines it, I suggest that it is you who is laden with opinion.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline CHB

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2011, 07:00:29 PM »
Hi Nathan,

I pray that you are right on this but I still have my doubts on many things. It would be truly wonderful to know that when I die I would go straight to God and be alive and know and see things as I do now. There are a few questions though that I just cannot shake. I don't mean to argue, or say you don't know or understand this, it is just that I don't understand this.

You say that the vision of the transfiguration was actually real and that Moses and Elijah were alive. Lets say they were alive. OK, what about John in the first chapter of Revelation? Was John experiencing what was happening or was he just seeing a vision of what was going to happen?

Quote from: Nathan
My point on the number six was not trying to prove because the number of six pertains to MAN that what happened on the mount of transfiguration was literal . . .that's twisting things into whatever one would then desire.  My point to the number 6 was that it's a spiritual signpost for those who would choose to see it as such, to take a closer look at what was about to unfold.  It was "after" six days . . .it was "beyond" the day's of labor.  What was about to transpire was going to be something outside of natural reason and logic.  The transfiguration truly was not a natural thing people do.  Jesus was allowing the three disciples to see something only those who have the intimacy with the Father could be able to see

OK, what if Jesus was showing Peter and the rest what would be after the 6th day, or in the millennium. Maybe they weren't alive at that time but Jesus was showing them that they would be alive after the 6th day or when the 6th day is up and the 7th or millennium is here? What if Jesus was showing them what would transpire after the 6th day?

You said "Imortality is IN us all!" and I agree with that but Jesus was allowed to die and stay in the grave three days. The same spirit that raised Him from the grave will do the same for us, only question is, when? 

One other thing. When Jesus was resurrected he took his body with him, why wouldn't we do the same as Paul says in (1Cor. 15:52-55) and the DEAD shall be raised incorruptible, and we SHALL BE CHANGED.  For the corruptible MUST PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and thismortal must PUT ON immortality. (Verse 54) It is after this happens that is "brought to pass the saying that is written. Death is swolled up in victory. (55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave where is thy victory.

(1Thess. 4:13-14) But I would not have you be ignorant brethren, concerning them which ARE ASLEEP, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, EVEN SO THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS will God bring with him.

Don't know if you posted this verse or not?  (Heb. 11:39-40) And these all,...{all the ones you mentioned that had faith}...having obtained a good report through faith, RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE:  God having provided some better thing for us, THAT THEY WITHOUT US...{Paul and those he was talking to}...SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT.

The above sounds like none of the ones mentioned as having faith were changed to immortality before Paul and those he was speaking to.

CHB   

Offline Nathan

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2011, 07:05:23 PM »
Oh please . . . don't throw that "it's not me, it's the Bible saying it" routine . . . The Bible only affirms what God is saying in us all.  But when we pay more attention to what we're reading rather than what we're hearing, we buid our foundation on materials our mind has already filtered through rather than through the raw truth of heavenly principles.  It's not what the Bible says that divides us, it's what "you think" it's saying.

I'm embracing the Nature of life in all that's written, not in word definitions or other's interpretations.  There simply is no pattern established by God that reflects that once his life is in you and you die a natural death, that his life is then removed from you as you float off in a state of dormancy forever awaiting the resurrection.  That's not his nature and I don't accept it to be truth at all.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2011, 07:21:38 PM »
"Oh please . . . don't throw that "it's not me, it's the Bible saying it" routine ..."

As for me I will continue to believe what the Bible teaches and reads, and if there is any "routine" its coming form what ever you are studying and reading.

"It's not what the Bible says that divides us, it's what "you think" it's saying." Could it be that it is what "you think" is what is causing the division?

"I'm embracing the Nature of life in all that's written, not in word definitions or other's interpretations.  There simply is no pattern established by God that reflects that once his life is in you and you die a natural death, that his life is then removed from you as you float off in a state of dormancy forever awaiting the resurrection.  That's not his nature and I don't accept it to be truth at all."

What is the "Nature of life" in all that is written? When a soul dies, his body returns to the dust from which it came. Now that is a pattern that God set up in Gen. 3:19 and the breath or spirit returns to the one who gave it [thats in my Bible.] And the in between time of when the breath or spirit return and the body returns to dust, we are dead[knowing not anything] awaiting the rising again. :bigGrin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2011, 09:03:07 PM »
You say that the vision of the transfiguration was actually real and that Moses and Elijah were alive. Lets say they were alive. OK, what about John in the first chapter of Revelation? Was John experiencing what was happening or was he just seeing a vision of what was going to happen?

John was seeing what had already happened in the spirit but hadn't yet manifested in the flesh.  What Jesus did on the cross had already happened in the spirit, but didn't manifest in the flesh until Jesus came in the flesh.  Peter, James and John saw a spiritual scene open up before them.  But think about your logic here . . .even logically the idea that God would reveal Elijah and Moses as alive, even though they no longer exist . . .that's decieving don't you think?  The idea that God would show you in a vision someone alive and what were they doing?  They were conversing, they weren't just "appearing" they were actually in a discussion about what Jesus was going to do next in his death, burial and resurrection. 

In our realm, when we pray, we "think" we're alone and that God is "aware" of our prayers.  But what Jesus was doing was, he opened a window into heaven to reveal who it was that he was conversing with.  They weren't there "as" God, they were there as family members encouraging Jesus to continue . . . our minds just can't comprehend the realm of the spirit at all.  it's a foreign land to us.  But God wants to not just show us, but he wants us to experience this realm . . .it's our home, but our minds just can't make the connection.

Online sheila

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2011, 09:21:39 PM »
 people get the cart before the horse......our flesh/dust has no life in it....it is the 'SPIRIT" of LIFE  DWELLING in it that animates the flesh.

   when the spirit leaves the flesh body...the body quickly disintegrates back into the dust.  Jesus spirit came backinto His flesh and become breathing again.

   when the spirit of life leaves....desolation of the dwelling occurs.

   example; dust devils...wind whips up dust and makes it move about and manifest in the seen realm. windleaves the dust behind and goes elsewhere
 
    So,too, spiriit  animates our 'dusty' vessels...   all in Adam was given spirit in measure..into their vessels.....Jesus Christ received spirit without measure=

    life in Himself.   when spirit was poured out at Pentecost...'token'  another measure added of spiritual life to smoking wicks in vessels

    smoking  wicks are sputtering due to measure of oil being low...need added oil[spirit] lest lamps go out.     Light=spirit life[no need for sun or moon]

    in the last days I will pour out my spirit on all flesh.   Everyone has a last day and 'hour of trial'  When Jesus time came He said....'BUT THIS IS YOUR

   HOUR WHEN DARKNESS REIGNS.  Rev 18;12  but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

    death is conquered 'BY MY SPIRIT"    Christ means 'anointing'   it is spirit that anoints.   Our life is not derived from our flesh but our spirit

Offline Nathan

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2011, 10:34:07 PM »
YESSSSSS!!!!  I can taste that!!!

As I read it, it kinda tossed up an image of leaves tumbling about as the wind blows them  . . .in a sense, I can see "us" as the leaves and we can go all different directions all at once and still all are directed by the influence of the driving force of the wind.  As I watch leaves do that, it reminds me of a symphony.  All the different instruments swirling all around but all are in the same key even though all may be playing different notes and rhythms.  I used to be in a choir with an orchestra and I remember listening to the musicians just before we started worship.  They would all check their instruments to see if they're in tune, but not with one another and I remember thinking "how can they sound so chaotic and still be able to tell whether they're in tune or not . . ."  And as soon as the worship music began, the transition was amazingly accute.

Sometimes I sense we're the same way in we think out loud things that may appear to be out of tune with others, but when the worship starts, immediately the sound becomes a harmony rather than chaotic noise.  Then on the other hand . . .there aer other times when worship begins and we are oblivious to the worship of another as we continue on with our own personal agendas as though the worship of another hasn't happened.