Author Topic: God Winked - Now Repent  (Read 2048 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9107
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
God Winked - Now Repent
« on: December 07, 2011, 03:15:21 AM »
In the Old Testament, through faith, grace and mercy, apparently some were considered righteous; some not.  This seems totally an act of God, because even murderers like Moses and adulterers like David were accepted.

In the New Testament, during His earthly ministry, Jesus hid Himself from most.  Only a few were given to see the secrets of the kingdom.   He replied, "You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of God. But I use parables to teach the others so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled: 'When they look, they won't really see. When they hear, they won't understand.'  Luke 8:10


Today, even though the church is made up of one body, both gentiles and Jews, I still believe most Jews are still blinded.   "...the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts."  2 Corinthians 3:14-15 

Paul said there was a time when God winked, now all are called to repentance.    "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he has appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has ordained; whereof he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead."     Acts 17:30-32   

There are many varied beliefs, but many who believe in Ultimate Reconciliation or the vivification of all (self included),  understand that only some will be saved now (the elect, the ekklesia [called out ones], and the rest at the consummation - each in their own order.

How do you see that all fitting together?  Especially that God no longer winks...

Online jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9107
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2011, 03:29:23 AM »
Summary;

OT =  only some (many disobedient)
Jesus' ministry = only some (most veiled)
Paul's teaching = only some (only ALL at the consummation of the Ages)
yet Paul said in Acts, God used to wink, now all are to repent

Was Paul talking about a specific thing in Acts (they were worshipping idols)?  Was something changing, a different shift in focus?  A "beginning push" toward the consummation?  Insight, understandings?

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 6074
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2011, 04:31:00 AM »

Good post! :bigGrin: Considering......
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2672
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2011, 09:52:00 PM »
Summary;

OT =  only some (many disobedient)
Jesus' ministry = only some (most veiled)
Paul's teaching = only some (only ALL at the consummation of the Ages)
yet Paul said in Acts, God used to wink, now all are to repent

Was Paul talking about a specific thing in Acts (they were worshipping idols)?  Was something changing, a different shift in focus?  A "beginning push" toward the consummation?  Insight, understandings?

It depends what he means by winked at.

It could mean personal sins, or simply the sins of the nations.

The Israelites if they sinned would suffer severe chastizments from God

But the pagans could get away with all kinds of gruesome crimes.

But after the new covenent God is no longer the God of the Israelites but now God of the gentiles, so his judgments and expectations now extend to them too

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 6074
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2011, 10:30:50 PM »
" But after the new covenent God is no longer the God of the Israelites....."


WHAT? No longer the God of the Israelites?


Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13127
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2011, 10:46:29 PM »
" But after the new covenent God is no longer the God of the Israelites....."


WHAT? No longer the God of the Israelites?
Micah, look at TT's avatar and forgive him. He looks through sunglasses darkly  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 6074
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2011, 10:57:19 PM »
" But after the new covenent God is no longer the God of the Israelites....."


WHAT? No longer the God of the Israelites?
Micah, look at TT's avatar and forgive him. He looks through sunglasses darkly  :laughing7:

 :laughing7:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2672
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2011, 11:05:38 PM »
" But after the new covenent God is no longer the God of the Israelites....."


WHAT? No longer the God of the Israelites?




TT Takes his shades off..

"No longer EXCLUSIVELY the God of the Israelites"

TT puts his sword back into his jacket, silencing his critics.

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 6074
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2011, 11:23:27 PM »
No harm no foul :laughing7:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11313
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2011, 11:44:52 PM »
" But after the new covenent God is no longer the God of the Israelites....."


WHAT? No longer the God of the Israelites?




TT Takes his shades off..

"No longer EXCLUSIVELY the God of the Israelites"

TT puts his sword back into his jacket, silencing his critics.
I think you were right the first time because Jesus broke down the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile.

We are no longer Jew or Gentile, but one new man.


There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. [Gal 3:28]

Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2076
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2011, 12:58:33 AM »
Quote from: jabcat
Paul said there was a time when God winked, now all are called to repentance.    "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he has appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has ordained; whereof he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead."     Acts 17:30-32

just my opinion but I think he was referring to idols here because in the 29th verse he mentions "we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device".  Paul calls worshipping these things ignorance. Paul said that all men was "given assurance in that he hath raised him from the dead."

God winked at the worshipping of idols. A reference of this is in chapter 14:16 it says "Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways".  (Psalms 81:12) "So I gave them up unto their own hearts lust: and they walked in their own counsels".

I really think that Paul was talking about the law and the New Covenant. The New Covenant required repentance. The breaking of law and worshipping other god's is what God winked at.

CHB

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11313
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2011, 01:04:18 AM »
Going along with what CHB said, maybe this also applies--


But the time is coming--indeed it's here now--when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way.

--John 4:23

Offline lomarah

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2286
  • Gender: Female
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2011, 04:36:25 AM »
" But after the new covenent God is no longer the God of the Israelites....."


WHAT? No longer the God of the Israelites?
Micah, look at TT's avatar and forgive him. He looks through sunglasses darkly  :laughing7:

Ahahaha WW I love your humour!

Sorry James I have no input for this one, I too am looking through some pretty dark shades LOL
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 6074
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2011, 05:14:34 AM »
Going along with what CHB said, maybe this also applies--


But the time is coming--indeed it's here now--when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way.

--John 4:23

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :icon_flower: :cloud9: :bigGrin: :dsunny: :happyclap: :happyclap:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Online jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9107
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2011, 07:36:19 AM »
maybe TT you mean He's not "just" the God of the Jews, but also now the Gentiles?

interesting thoughts here guys, thanks.

yes, the context seems to be about idols, but then he also talks about the coming judgment.   (he has appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has ordained)

interesting re: "the wall of separation being broken down"...that seems obviously true, the body is made up of anyone - from any nationality - that is believing unto salvation...yet Paul also seems to state there's still a general veiling over [most?] of the Jews, as they still don't believe nor can see the Messiah, either in reality or in the scriptures - 2 Corinthians 3:14-15.   Seems this is "until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled" (Romans 11:26)...

so it seems some type of shift, a turning point, within the context of the ignorance of idol worship, yet still talking about a future judgment...

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11313
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2011, 08:18:39 AM »
He winked at ignorance but now commands men everywhere to repent...

It's a pretty strong statement, particularly since we know that most men will not repent.

But it does seem like he's saying, ok boys and girls, it's time to get serious.

Ignorance means a lack of knowledge---so it's time to start gaining knowledge about the one true God.


"God overlooked people's ignorance about these things in earlier times, but now he commands everyone everywhere to repent of their sins and turn to him. [Acts 17:30]


For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you. [Acts 17:23]


Online jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9107
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2011, 09:17:45 AM »
He winked at ignorance but now commands men everywhere to repent...

It's a pretty strong statement, particularly since we know that most men will not repent.


THAT's what i'm getting at...if salvation is actually HID right now from most - and total redemption won't occur until the consummation of the ages - yes, it is a strong statement. 



But it does seem like he's saying, ok boys and girls, it's time to get serious.


Yes, it seems to me something was changing.

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 6074
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2011, 09:58:40 AM »
" THAT's what i'm getting at...if salvation is actually HID right now from most - and total redemption won't occur until the consummation of the ages - yes, it is a strong statement. " Now that is a great statement Jabcat

So we still await our salvation, we are not yet saved, but we shall be in the "consummation of the ages-" That is some mighty fine and uplifting word! GLORY!
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11313
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2011, 10:02:16 AM »
Micah, where do you get 'we are not yet saved' out of that?

We have been translated into the kingdom of his dear Son.

We have crossed over from death to life.

We have a body prepared for us in heaven.

We will be around to witness the consummation of the age

 because we have been given eternal life.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 10:09:11 AM by Molly »

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8432
  • Gender: Female
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2011, 04:16:54 PM »
 :cloud9: Just a thought here to throw in the mix.....regarding Jews and Gentiles.....nearly everyone in Christiandom wants to "do away" with the Jews (and by extension the OT) in one form or another, in favor of the "new" covenant (which is really the fulfilment of the "old", therefore ONE).

But the Jews and gentiles, in PATTERN, are as the male (think circumcised) and the gentiles are as females who are ritually unclean from being bloody, ie. having not produced a son yet. The wall of partition that has been torn down, is as the veil/hymen of the female, wherein the male can come in and plant seed for the son to come forth, thereby making her clean (no longer menstrous).

The LIFE/REVELATION that comes forth from the OT is what's planting Seed in us to produce the Son. A woman who was barren was cursed, and as long as "we" ie. Christiandom refuse to receive seed from our husband so we can produce the Son, we remain under all the generation curses and DIE.

This is what is meant by there is neither Jew nor Gentile, NOT that there was now neither one, but that the way has been made for the male/Jew and female/Gentile to become one and then reproduce THAT combined nature, the nature of the Son. Just as in the natural a son is a separate entity that is neither the male (husband) nor the female (wife), yet He is the image of both as ONE.

So what will the Son look like?  :laughing7:  Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Online jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9107
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2011, 06:24:51 PM »
" THAT's what i'm getting at...if salvation is actually HID right now from most - and total redemption won't occur until the consummation of the ages - yes, it is a strong statement. " Now that is a great statement Jabcat

So we still await our salvation, we are not yet saved, but we shall be in the "consummation of the ages-" That is some mighty fine and uplifting word! GLORY!

Thanks, but that's not what I meant exactly.  I mean total redemption of all, or the rest of humanity.

Yes, I believe the ekklesia are saved now, that's what believing on Jesus as Savior and being spiritually reborn is - and that there's plenty of scrips to show it.  However, of course none of us are totally technically "complete", a finished product until God is All in All.  Doesn't mean we don't have salvation now.

It's NOT me, but Him working through me, which is the spiritual rebirth, began when I got saved - only by His grace - and it's Him that keeps me (Heb.12:2).  The miraculous difference Jesus makes in my life daily is evidence.  Without that, I'd be even more of a sorry individual than I am now.  He truly is working "behold, the old man has passed away, and all things are becoming new".

However, as we've been round this bush before, how about the "God Winked" part?   :bigGrin:
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 06:36:30 PM by jabcat »

Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2076
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2011, 07:27:14 PM »
Here is how the CLNT has it.
30 "Indeed, then, condoning the times of ignorance, God is now charging mankind that all everywhere are to repent,

When God was condoning the ignorance of man they were under the law which God knew they couldn't keep. Since the death and resurrection of Jesus, he is our help and assurance. Verse 31 says, he will judge the world in righteousness by Jesus Christ. Otherwords, God will judge the world righteous because of what Jesus did.  We are the offspring of God and shouldn't be thinking that God is gold, silver, or stone. We have the Holy Spirit now to show us these things so, Paul is saying they should repent or not be thinking these things.

CHB

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 6074
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2011, 09:52:30 PM »
Summary;

OT =  only some (many disobedient)
Jesus' ministry = only some (most veiled)
Paul's teaching = only some (only ALL at the consummation of the Ages)
yet Paul said in Acts, God used to wink, now all are to repent

Was Paul talking about a specific thing in Acts (they were worshipping idols)?  Was something changing, a different shift in focus?  A "beginning push" toward the consummation?  Insight, understandings?

This is only my opinion, God overlooked the doings of souls in the OT I believe because this is how He had things going, nothing would "surprise" Him; He knew what His creation would do and the way I see it not until Gen. 6:8 when Noah was able to see grace, I believe from that point on God set that grace to work in men like Abraham, Joseph and so on. He saw these men and woman would stand and trust Him, yet He knew all the ways of His human beings would frolic in their own lusts as it was from Gen. 3. For me Jesus came with the message to repent that is to change the mind-change the thinking. In the OT He would overlook but now He wanted people to think differently, repent. He was going to change their thinking so now He would no longer overlook(wink) at things, now He would have all men to be saved. Don't know if my opinion came out understandable.

To your other point.
I do not believe that the eckesia or anyone is "saved" yet. We are all in the process of being saved. When we are saved we shall see Him as He is for we shall be like Him.
1Jn 3:2  Beloved! now, are we, children of God; and, not yet, hath it been made manifest, what we shall be,óWe know that, if it should be made manifest, like unto him, shall we be, because we shall see him, just as he is.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13127
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2011, 10:27:11 PM »
[To your other point.
I do not believe that the eckesia or anyone is "saved" yet. We are all in the process of being saved. When we are saved we shall see Him as He is for we shall be like Him.
I think you and Jabcat are both right. The both of you are just looking at the same thing from different angles.

You are correct in stating that we are saved when we meet Him. I sure James won't disagree with that. So your point is valid.
However, God made a promise that all will be saved. For God promise=fact. So that may look like James is wrong.
But consider this: We know Jesus was crucified/slain about 2000 years ago. But the Bible also states:

(Revelation 13:8 [ACV])
And all who dwell upon the earth will worship it, whose name has not been written in the book of life of the Lamb who was killed from the foundation of the world.

Was Jesus also crucified in the first verses of Genesis? Or is it just a way of saying "We (Father and Son) agreed that the Son would be crucified."
Without crucifixion no salvation.
With crucifixion salvation is guaranteed.
So in my reasoning (I think also of James) we were saved at the foundation of the world because Jesus was also crucified then.
So James' point is also valid.

 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 6074
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: God Winked - Now Repent
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2011, 07:46:26 AM »
[To your other point.
I do not believe that the eckesia or anyone is "saved" yet. We are all in the process of being saved. When we are saved we shall see Him as He is for we shall be like Him.
I think you and Jabcat are both right. The both of you are just looking at the same thing from different angles.

You are correct in stating that we are saved when we meet Him. I sure James won't disagree with that. So your point is valid.
However, God made a promise that all will be saved. For God promise=fact. So that may look like James is wrong.
But consider this: We know Jesus was crucified/slain about 2000 years ago. But the Bible also states:

(Revelation 13:8 [ACV])
And all who dwell upon the earth will worship it, whose name has not been written in the book of life of the Lamb who was killed from the foundation of the world.

Was Jesus also crucified in the first verses of Genesis? Or is it just a way of saying "We (Father and Son) agreed that the Son would be crucified."
Without crucifixion no salvation.
With crucifixion salvation is guaranteed.
So in my reasoning (I think also of James) we were saved at the foundation of the world because Jesus was also crucified then.
So James' point is also valid.

 :2c:

Yes I agree totally, and we were saved from the foundation of the world, yet there is and must be a process or there would be no need for Paul to write Php 3:13 Brethren, not as yet am I reckoning myself to have grasped, yet one thing - forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front - "
Php 3:14 toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus.  :HeartThrob:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.