Author Topic: Has anyone ever thought of this?  (Read 5685 times)

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Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2011, 05:31:52 AM »
Time is, time goes on, time does not stop. Eternity and everlasting are words we use to express what we have no idea of what we are talking about, we can't express it so we lay back on words like eternity, everlasting, and phrases like forever and ever. Time is, Spirit is, HE is.
Psa 102:27  But, thou, art, the same,—And, thy years, shall have no end:  "lô'  lô'  lôh" "tâmam"
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2011, 11:26:23 PM »
I almost agree with this in that He is and Spirit is . . .but "time" is only time in this realm . . .Peter quoted Psalms when he mentioned that in God's eyes, a day is as a thousand years . . .time really has no affect in the realm of the Spirit.  It's measured and governed by the sun, moon and stars . . .which don't exist after all is said and done as the sole source of light will be Christ himself and his light has the opposite affect on us, rather than age us, it keeps us forever young.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2011, 03:11:29 AM »
I think eternity is a state of being that transcends time, exists outside of time, occasionally invades time, and will ultimately swallow time altogether. :2c:
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Offline Cardinal

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2011, 03:45:14 PM »
 :cloud9: Amen to you both.... :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline shawn

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2011, 05:35:33 PM »
I think eternity is a state of being that transcends time, exists outside of time, occasionally invades time, and will ultimately swallow time altogether. :2c:

Wow.  I really like that.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #55 on: December 13, 2011, 09:17:07 PM »
What "happens" "what gets done" without time?  Nothing.

So "I think eternity is a state of being that transcends time, exists outside of time, occasionally invades time, and will ultimately swallow time altogether."
Which means that what we have is a God who is doing nothing in eternity.

Time= duration, continuance 1) indefinite, unlimited duration in which things are considered as happening in the past, present, or future; every moment there has ever been or will be.
A system  of measuring duration.

Psa 90:4  For, a thousand years, in thine eyes, are , As yesterday, in that it passed away, Or as a watch in the night.


Psa 102:27  But, thou, art, the same,—And, thy years, shall have no end:   
       no H3808  "lô'  lô'  lôh"          "tâmam" end. H8552

What "happens" "what gets done" without time?     Nothing.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #56 on: December 13, 2011, 09:21:37 PM »
Maybe people think of time as motion. But I see that the clock can stop but yet God or people can continue to do.

Such as the sun that was stopped in scripture.

So maybe it's possible for a resurected saint to enjoy a warm bath for an apparent dozens of hours,but yet without a second passing.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2011, 09:26:58 PM »
What "happens" "what gets done" without time?  Nothing.

I beg to differ.  God exists outside of the influence of time.  Time is only relevant in the natural realm of things.  "In this world" nothing happens outside of the reach of time, I'll give you that . . .but in the spirit, the laws of nature no longer apply.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2011, 09:53:01 PM »
Time= duration, continuance 1) indefinite, unlimited duration in which things are considered as happening in the past, present, or future; every moment there has ever been or will be.
A system  of measuring duration.

That is the meaning of time. Whether in the spirit or the natural, should something, anything HAPPEN there must be time for it or NOTHING HAPPENS.

Again: Psa 102:27  But, thou, art, the same,—And, thy years, shall have no end

If there is NO END then something is happening and that which happens must be done in TIME.

"God exists and that means in TIME, if something exists it is being in time. If anything exists without time, it is dead. And my God is not dead.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2011, 11:11:07 PM »
You're still not getting it.  God is not bound by time . . .if he were, then time would be above God.  Our mentality may not be able to comprehend that but it doesn't change the sovereignty of the nature of God.  What you're giving me is mans definition of a word.  What I'm giving you is a spiritual principle "beyond" the understanding of definition.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2011, 11:41:48 PM »
Perhaps you are not getting it.

Years  H8141 from H8138; a year (as a revolution of time): -  + whole age, X long, + old, year (X -ly).

Now this is not me, Again: Psa 102:27  But, thou, art, the same,—And, thy years, shall have no end:

The "thou" there is God, I believe. Now God may also be time, I dont know; also my mentality comprehends that God is not inactive EVER and that means He is active, and God being active means He is doing something and that takes time. Now where did you get the thought that "God is not bound by time . . .if he were, then time would be above God."?

What the Lord has given me is that His "years"(time) have no end. That is not my definition that's His. You say you are giving me a "spiritual principal" that is BEYOND my understanding by definition, then or me, it is a useless principal. The Lord gives men who hear understanding and that is a spiritual principal.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #61 on: December 14, 2011, 12:04:04 AM »
Maybe people think of time as motion. But I see that the clock can stop but yet God or people can continue to do.

Such as the sun that was stopped in scripture.

So maybe it's possible for a resurected saint to enjoy a warm bath for an apparent dozens of hours,but yet without a second passing.
From a purely scientific pov time can only exist when there is mass.
But that concept is also hidden somewhere in the OT because Jewish scholar Maimonides wrote that when creation started "time grabbed hold".
Only after 10^-34 seconds after the Big Bang time started ticking.
While I can be accused mixing scientific or a more loved word for some "carnal' thinking with the Bible; Maimonides can't be accused of that because he lived 1135-1204 AD.
That's long before big bang and evolution theories. 
So per hasps he found something that relates to this thread.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Nathan

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #62 on: December 14, 2011, 01:35:48 AM »
Perhaps you are not getting it.

Years  H8141 from H8138; a year (as a revolution of time): -  + whole age, X long, + old, year (X -ly).

Now this is not me, Again: Psa 102:27  But, thou, art, the same,—And, thy years, shall have no end:

The "thou" there is God, I believe. Now God may also be time, I dont know; also my mentality comprehends that God is not inactive EVER and that means He is active, and God being active means He is doing something and that takes time. Now where did you get the thought that "God is not bound by time . . .if he were, then time would be above God."?

I get it from the same concept that he is everywhere at the same time . . .all the time . . .he is the beginning AND the end . . .HE IS at the beginning and HE IS beyond the end . . .that is telling me he is outside of the grasp of time.  Time can not limit God . . .he never runs out of time because he is not MEASURED by time.

this conversation is making me dizzy.

For me, that passage you keep quoting is merely saying time can't measure him . .he has no end . ..he's timeless.  Time is not God . . .time can be measured, God can't.

And that's not his definition, that's your interpretation of what Scripture says about him . . .another thread for another "time". 

You say you are giving me a "spiritual principal" that is BEYOND my understanding by definition, then or me, it is a useless principal.
This sentence makes no sense . . ."then or me . .???"  Saying it's useless to you proves nothing other than what I've been saying . . natural reasoning can't comprehend spiritual truth . . .understanding is birthed, not learned when it comes to the things of God.  There is no such thing as a useless spiritual principle.  Not sure what you're trying to accomplish there with the accusations . . .we obviously have a difference of opinion but to say what you can't understand is useless isn't all that beneficial to the conversation.

The Lord gives men who hear understanding and that is a spiritual principal.
Then why does Scripture also say that the prophets who God gave the words to, didn't understand what it was they were writing?  Did Daniel understand the prophecies given to him?  The angel wouldn't even tell him his name in one instance.  Faith comes by "hearing" . . .not understanding . . .understanding is the offspring of the faith . .it's birthed in us . . .don't mean to contradict everything you say, we're just seeing things differently is all.


Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #63 on: December 14, 2011, 01:40:33 AM »
Ill just quote you and leave it there, "this conversation is making me dizzy."
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2011, 04:00:04 AM »
Has anyone ever thought of this?
« on: September 06, 2011, 10:11:41 AM » opening post

"I was approached by someone with an extremely interesting question.  I'm really curious what you guys would say to this question.

We say that because of the cross experience, God did what he set out to do and he saved the whole world.  Our final destination has been taken care of.

The question is . . .what happened to the people who died "before" the cross?  Weren't they already in heaven at the time?  If so, then why the need for the cross if they were already in heaven to begin with?" Nathan

I start here so that I may start on the opening query. Although my thoughts will come from with what "spiritual mentality" that has been given me.

" We say that because of the cross experience, God did what he set out to do and he saved the whole world.  Our final destination has been taken care of."
I do not say this, my reason for thinking this way is that Paul wrote, 1Co 9:23  And this I do because of the good news, that a fellow-partaker of it I may become;

1Co 9:24  have ye not known that those running in a race--all indeed run, but one doth receive the prize? so run ye, that ye may obtain;
I believe that should Paul be in the race, he had not reached his final destination.  As well John 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it was not as yet manifested what we shall be. We are aware that, if He should be manifested, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him according as He is."

Saved and salvation carring the meaning being "made whole." Saved-to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.
Salvation- rescue or safety (physically or morally): - deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.
"The question is . . .what happened to the people who died "before" the cross? " As to your question:
Joh 3:13  and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
Job 34:15  All flesh together, would cease to breathe, and, the earth-born, unto dust, would return.
Ecc 3:17 I said in my heart:As for the righteous and the wicked, the One, Elohim, shall judge both of them. For He has set a season for every event and for every deed."
Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart:It is on account of the sons of humanity That the One, Elohim, seeks to manifest them And to show them that they themselves are beasts."
Ecc 3:19 For the destiny of the sons of humanity And the destiny of the beast, It is one destiny for them; As death is for this one, so is death for that one, And one spirit is for all; There is no advantage for the human over the beast, For the whole is vanity."
Ecc 3:20 All are going to one place; All have come from the soil, and all return to the soil."
Ecc 3:21 Who is knowing about the spirit of the sons of humanity, Whether it is ascending above, And the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending below to the earth?

I already know that that these words do not settle the question for the spiritual mentality of some, but they have been offered.  And I know this is far from the subject of time.     Peace

Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2011, 04:38:30 AM »
I think--

The OT saints have been waiting for us, that is the fulfillment of the Gentiles, and will be raised at the first resurrection.

The rest of the OT folks will be raised with everyone else at the second resurrection.

I also think since the cross, the OT saints are in heaven with Jesus and NT saints [us] waiting for the first resurrection.



39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Heb 11
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 04:42:28 AM by Molly »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #66 on: December 14, 2011, 06:18:54 AM »
The Bible teaches........

Joh 3:13  and no one hath gone up to the heaven,  except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.


(ASV)  God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

(CLV) (the looking forward is to something better), that, apart from us, they may not be perfected."

(KJV)  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

(Rotherham)  God, for us, something better providing,—that, not apart from us, should they be made, perfect.

(WNT)  for God had provided for them and us something better, so that apart from us they were not to attain to full blessedness.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #67 on: December 14, 2011, 06:42:37 AM »
Quote
oh 3:13  and no one hath gone up to the heaven,  except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.


Was that said before or after the cross?

Oh wait, in the next couple of verses he starts talking about that eternal life stuff.


And, why did you give all those heb 11 verses?  Did you find something new in there?  You do know what makes us perfect, yes?

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #68 on: December 14, 2011, 07:07:35 AM »
Quote
oh 3:13  and no one hath gone up to the heaven,  except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.


Was that said before or after the cross?

Oh wait, in the next couple of verses he starts talking about that eternal life stuff.


And, why did you give all those heb 11 verses?  Did you find something new in there?  You do know what makes us perfect, yes?

Got it. The Words of Jesus are not to be dignified as a Truth before the cross. Got it. And all those verses read the same way and I thought, well what I think really doesn't matter, but I thought the " apart from us, they may not be perfected." may make a difference. But then again there must be some already perfected, you know complete, but again that was just the writer of Hebrews.

Oh I almost forgot. Do you have any verses in your Bible that says that "someone" went to heaven, after the cross? Just wondering.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 07:11:04 AM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #69 on: December 14, 2011, 07:13:52 AM »
Quote
oh 3:13  and no one hath gone up to the heaven,  except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.


Was that said before or after the cross?

Oh wait, in the next couple of verses he starts talking about that eternal life stuff.


And, why did you give all those heb 11 verses?  Did you find something new in there?  You do know what makes us perfect, yes?

Got it. The Words of Jesus are not to be dignified as a Truth before the cross. Got it. And all those verses read the same way and I thought, well what I think really doesn't matter, but I thought the " apart from us, they may not be perfected." may make a difference. But then again there must be some already perfected, you know complete, but again that was just the writer of Hebrews.

No.  The words of Jesus are supposed to be taken in context.  He is talking to Nicodemus about being born from above, and he's saying to Nicodemus, I am the only one who has been to heaven and if you don't believe me about earthly things, why would you believe me about heavenly things.

Then one verse later, he says he will be lifted up on the cross

Then the next verse, he says, SO THAT whoever believes on me will have eternal life.


In other words, he's being lifted up on the cross so that whoever believes on him will have eternal life.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #70 on: December 14, 2011, 07:21:44 AM »
Quote
oh 3:13  and no one hath gone up to the heaven,  except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.


Was that said before or after the cross?

Oh wait, in the next couple of verses he starts talking about that eternal life stuff.


And, why did you give all those heb 11 verses?  Did you find something new in there?  You do know what makes us perfect, yes?

Got it. The Words of Jesus are not to be dignified as a Truth before the cross. Got it. And all those verses read the same way and I thought, well what I think really doesn't matter, but I thought the " apart from us, they may not be perfected." may make a difference. But then again there must be some already perfected, you know complete, but again that was just the writer of Hebrews.

No.  The words of Jesus are supposed to be taken in context.  He is talking to Nicodemus about being born from above, and he's saying to Nicodemus, I am the only one who has been to heaven and if you don't believe me about earthly things, why would you believe me about heavenly things.

Then one verse later, he says he will be lifted up on the cross

Then the next verse, he says, SO THAT whoever believes on me will have eternal life.


In other words, he's being lifted up on the cross so that whoever believes on him will have eternal life.

"The words of Jesus are supposed to be taken in context."

The context is No one has gone to heaven... except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven.
That's what Jesus said and unless there is somewhere in the Bible that "someone" other than the Son of Man ascended then I will take His word for the context.
And yes He will be lifted up and should you believe one will have  life eonian. I believe that.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #71 on: December 14, 2011, 07:32:20 AM »
Quote
oh 3:13  and no one hath gone up to the heaven,  except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.


Was that said before or after the cross?

Oh wait, in the next couple of verses he starts talking about that eternal life stuff.


And, why did you give all those heb 11 verses?  Did you find something new in there?  You do know what makes us perfect, yes?

Got it. The Words of Jesus are not to be dignified as a Truth before the cross. Got it. And all those verses read the same way and I thought, well what I think really doesn't matter, but I thought the " apart from us, they may not be perfected." may make a difference. But then again there must be some already perfected, you know complete, but again that was just the writer of Hebrews.

No.  The words of Jesus are supposed to be taken in context.  He is talking to Nicodemus about being born from above, and he's saying to Nicodemus, I am the only one who has been to heaven and if you don't believe me about earthly things, why would you believe me about heavenly things.

Then one verse later, he says he will be lifted up on the cross

Then the next verse, he says, SO THAT whoever believes on me will have eternal life.


In other words, he's being lifted up on the cross so that whoever believes on him will have eternal life.

"The words of Jesus are supposed to be taken in context."

The context is No one has gone to heaven... except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven.
That's what Jesus said and unless there is somewhere in the Bible that "someone" other than the Son of Man ascended then I will take His word for the context.
And yes He will be lifted up and should you believe one will have  life eonian. I believe that.

 :sigh:

At the time he is talking to Nicodemus, he says no one has gone to heaven except him

Do you think the cross changes this?  Does it make a difference to you?

Because then he goes on to say he will be lifted up on the cross so that whoever believes on him will have eternal life.

ETERNAL LIFE MEANS WE NEVER DIE MICAH.  We live from now to the end of this age, then we inherit with him, then we live with him through all the ages to come.


IN CONTEXT JOHN 3

 13 "No one has ever gone into heaven except the One who came from heaven. He is the Son of Man. 14 Moses lifted up the snake in the desert. The Son of Man must be lifted up also. 15Then everyone who believes in him can live with God forever.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2011, 07:38:08 AM »
 :sigh: :mfrown: :msealed:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2011, 07:39:09 AM »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2011, 07:43:08 AM »
Should I have any more wonders about what the Bible teaches I'll come to you. :sigh: :mfrown: :msealed:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.