Author Topic: Has anyone ever thought of this?  (Read 6378 times)

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Offline eaglesway

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2011, 06:55:56 PM »
You say that the vision of the transfiguration was actually real and that Moses and Elijah were alive. Lets say they were alive. OK, what about John in the first chapter of Revelation? Was John experiencing what was happening or was he just seeing a vision of what was going to happen?

John was seeing what had already happened in the spirit but hadn't yet manifested in the flesh.  What Jesus did on the cross had already happened in the spirit, but didn't manifest in the flesh until Jesus came in the flesh.  Peter, James and John saw a spiritual scene open up before them.  But think about your logic here . . .even logically the idea that God would reveal Elijah and Moses as alive, even though they no longer exist . . .that's decieving don't you think?  The idea that God would show you in a vision someone alive and what were they doing?  They were conversing, they weren't just "appearing" they were actually in a discussion about what Jesus was going to do next in his death, burial and resurrection. 

In our realm, when we pray, we "think" we're alone and that God is "aware" of our prayers.  But what Jesus was doing was, he opened a window into heaven to reveal who it was that he was conversing with.  They weren't there "as" God, they were there as family members encouraging Jesus to continue . . . our minds just can't comprehend the realm of the spirit at all.  it's a foreign land to us.  But God wants to not just show us, but he wants us to experience this realm . . .it's our home, but our minds just can't make the connection.

1Pe 1:20  He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

Heb 12:22-24  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,  (23)  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,  (24)  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


Col 3:1-2   
 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.  (2)  Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.


Eph 1:15-19  Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints,  (16)  do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers:  (17)  that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,  (18)  the eyes of your understanding[c] being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,  (19)  and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power

Rom 12:2  And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.







The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2011, 04:20:52 AM »
From scripture it sounds as though we will be asleep when we die physically until Christ's return. There are a couple of exceptions to this. This makes the most sense IMO.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2011, 04:59:32 AM »
From scripture it sounds as though we will be asleep when we die physically until Christ's return. There are a couple of exceptions to this. This makes the most sense IMO.

Me too. :thumbsup:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2011, 08:04:19 AM »


For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2011, 05:06:30 PM »
Question, if we walked in the spirit(understanding) would we be able to move through time as well just like the men of faith?

 :cloud9: YES  :thumbsup: Time is the measurement of death; something has to die to create time. Freed from the death/time realm, in His Spirit, we MOVE and live and have our being. My  :2c:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2011, 05:36:46 PM »
Question, if we walked in the spirit(understanding) would we be able to move through time as well just like the men of faith?

 :cloud9: YES  :thumbsup: Time is the measurement of death; something has to die to create time. Freed from the death/time realm, in His Spirit, we MOVE and live and have our being. My  :2c:

"Time is the measurement of death; something has to die to create time." Cardinal

Can you explain or elaborate more on this statement? Please. I do not understand. :sigh:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline shawn

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2011, 06:25:26 PM »
Question, if we walked in the spirit(understanding) would we be able to move through time as well just like the men of faith?

 :cloud9: YES  :thumbsup: Time is the measurement of death; something has to die to create time. Freed from the death/time realm, in His Spirit, we MOVE and live and have our being. My  :2c:

"Time is the measurement of death; something has to die to create time." Cardinal

Can you explain or elaborate more on this statement? Please. I do not understand. :sigh:

Not to speak for Cardinal but how I understand that statement is this...

If a being doesn't die then there is this sense of forever and within that time has no power.  But to a being that dies, time has power because with each passing second it brings death closer.  Each day ages and has influence.  Time is only an important measure to a finite being.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2011, 06:32:02 PM »
Question, if we walked in the spirit(understanding) would we be able to move through time as well just like the men of faith?

 :cloud9: YES  :thumbsup: Time is the measurement of death; something has to die to create time. Freed from the death/time realm, in His Spirit, we MOVE and live and have our being. My  :2c:

"Time is the measurement of death; something has to die to create time." Cardinal

Can you explain or elaborate more on this statement? Please. I do not understand. :sigh:

Not to speak for Cardinal but how I understand that statement is this...

If a being doesn't die then there is this sense of forever and within that time has no power.  But to a being that dies, time has power because with each passing second it brings death closer.  Each day ages and has influence.  Time is only an important measure to a finite being.

I suppose I'm one of the dense ones, but what you said was like throwing a pebble into a mirror still pond. :sigh:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2011, 10:41:40 PM »
Question, if we walked in the spirit(understanding) would we be able to move through time as well just like the men of faith?

 :cloud9: YES  :thumbsup: Time is the measurement of death; something has to die to create time. Freed from the death/time realm, in His Spirit, we MOVE and live and have our being. My  :2c:

"Time is the measurement of death; something has to die to create time." Cardinal

Can you explain or elaborate more on this statement? Please. I do not understand. :sigh:

Not to speak for Cardinal but how I understand that statement is this...

If a being doesn't die then there is this sense of forever and within that time has no power.  But to a being that dies, time has power because with each passing second it brings death closer.  Each day ages and has influence.  Time is only an important measure to a finite being.

 :cloud9: :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2011, 10:49:55 PM »
"The one who believes in Me has passed from death into life"

Aionios Zoe   A life that transcends time , the kosmos, the ages

I call it ETERNI-TIME- through the veil, seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

If we have ceased from our own works, entered His rest, and are living in the TODAY of God, that DAY has already dawned and we will not see the night- we are children of the DAY :o)
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2011, 03:22:12 PM »
 :cloud9: :thumbsup: I like it
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2011, 10:01:11 PM »
Question, if we walked in the spirit(understanding) would we be able to move through time as well just like the men of faith?

 :cloud9: YES  :thumbsup: Time is the measurement of death; something has to die to create time. Freed from the death/time realm, in His Spirit, we MOVE and live and have our being. My  :2c:

"Time is the measurement of death; something has to die to create time." Cardinal

Can you explain or elaborate more on this statement? Please. I do not understand. :sigh:

Not to speak for Cardinal but how I understand that statement is this...

If a being doesn't die then there is this sense of forever and within that time has no power.  But to a being that dies, time has power because with each passing second it brings death closer.  Each day ages and has influence.  Time is only an important measure to a finite being.

I gather then that from "If a being doesn't die then there is this sense of forever and within that time has no power." that nothing is going on "time has no power," time has stopped so to speak. And to one who does die there is no time? Am I getting it?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline shawn

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2011, 10:31:39 PM »
Question, if we walked in the spirit(understanding) would we be able to move through time as well just like the men of faith?

 :cloud9: YES  :thumbsup: Time is the measurement of death; something has to die to create time. Freed from the death/time realm, in His Spirit, we MOVE and live and have our being. My  :2c:

"Time is the measurement of death; something has to die to create time." Cardinal

Can you explain or elaborate more on this statement? Please. I do not understand. :sigh:

Not to speak for Cardinal but how I understand that statement is this...

If a being doesn't die then there is this sense of forever and within that time has no power.  But to a being that dies, time has power because with each passing second it brings death closer.  Each day ages and has influence.  Time is only an important measure to a finite being.

I gather then that from "If a being doesn't die then there is this sense of forever and within that time has no power." that nothing is going on "time has no power," time has stopped so to speak. And to one who does die there is no time? Am I getting it?

Very close.  If you are eternal, if you live forever what does time mean to you?  Does it hold any power over you?  You live outside of it's influence.  If you die, which we all have physical deaths, then time indeed has power bringing us ever closer to physical death.  But, if you are a believer then death has lost it's sting, it no longer has power over you as it only means you get to be in the presence of our Savior.  You right now are in a sense living outside the influence of time, because physical death is no longer a thing of dread but something that brings freedom from this carnal flesh.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2011, 10:50:14 PM »
 :cloud9: Exactly. Decay is what marks time. For instance, you see the seasons change, and you know time has passed, essentially because something has changed from decay.

Being lowered into this bondage of vanity and corruption, started time. It's hard for our finite minds to wrap our head around the concept because we've forgotten what it was like before, IMO. BUT; we get to have tastes of it from time to time, as the Spirit takes us where He wills.

I've been shown scenes in the past and scenes in the future that came to pass. Was "I" there? Very much in spirit, so real, as if I really was there bodily. I believe many in the Word had these same types of experiences with the LIVING Word. This is how John and all the others were able to see what was ahead. Blessings.....
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 10:54:36 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline shawn

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2011, 11:47:10 PM »
:cloud9: Exactly. Decay is what marks time. For instance, you see the seasons change, and you know time has passed, essentially because something has changed from decay.

Being lowered into this bondage of vanity and corruption, started time. It's hard for our finite minds to wrap our head around the concept because we've forgotten what it was like before, IMO. BUT; we get to have tastes of it from time to time, as the Spirit takes us where He wills.

I've been shown scenes in the past and scenes in the future that came to pass. Was "I" there? Very much in spirit, so real, as if I really was there bodily. I believe many in the Word had these same types of experiences with the LIVING Word. This is how John and all the others were able to see what was ahead. Blessings.....

I would love to hear about some of these experiences sometime.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2011, 12:12:33 AM »
From scripture it sounds as though we will be asleep when we die physically until Christ's return. There are a couple of exceptions to this. This makes the most sense IMO.

May I be so bold as to say if we return to a state of "nothingness" as many here "think", then for me, there's been no true resurrection experience in the first place.  Why would God bring us life and more abundantly if we're just going to become dormant again in the first place?  Is death greater than life?  Can natural death over power this abundant life we've been given?  This kind of thing challenges us to go beyond our natural reasoning and logic. 

Is the message beneath this belief one of life?  Or death?  If I believe that when I die a natural death that I go into a state of "soul sleep" where I experience "nothingness" until Jesus returns . .. again . . .what is this saying of the message of life we're to be birthing and relaying on to others?  So my spirit is where during this time?  In the grave?  In "death"?  How can I proclaim the good news while also embracing yet another doctrine of death at the same time?

So natural death here is not the beginning of life on the other side . . .there's a "gap" that everyone is conformed to.  We claim to be alive in the spirit until this body dies . .once the body dies, the spirit dies with it?  Are we not giving more power over to the shackles of death than we are to the power of life?  Is this really the message God planted in us to reproduce in others?  If Christ over came death, why then would we choose to continue believing it can still affect us even "after" we leave this realm?

Is God not great enough to usher us back into his presence once our time in this realm has ended?  I truly beleive he does.  I believe the nature of his love knows no death, nor will we ever experience spiritual death ever again.  This body may breathe it's last in this realm, but I don't beleive there's a state of nothingness awaiting me after I leave this place.  I truly plan on going home to BE with the Lord after I die and if he's not in a state of nothingness, then I won't be either.  As far as I'm concerned . . .he's already returned . . .otherwise, how else can I explain this heavenly burning sensation within me that causes me to ascend to those heavenly places . . .IN SPITE of still living in this realm of death and decay?

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2011, 12:26:00 AM »
Why would God bring us life and more abundantly if we're just going to become dormant again in the first place? 

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

from death to life,  NOW  :)

Offline Molly

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2011, 01:10:24 AM »
Why would God bring us life and more abundantly if we're just going to become dormant again in the first place? 

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

from death to life,  NOW  :)

Amen!  :thumbsup:

Offline Nathan

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2011, 01:31:48 AM »
If you would but humor me just  a bit more on this . . . how can we call it "eternal life" if it only leads to a state of nothingness?  Does it take a back seat as we go into our state of death . . .awaiting for another resurrection experience?  Was not the invitation of Chirst coming into our hearts the first time around an eternal experience?  Does not Scripture say NOTHING can separate us from the love of God . . .it even specifically states "death" can't.

Or . . .let's tie this all together, can we have true eternal LIFE and still experience spiritual punishment in the end? 

Romans 8
37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I would think that if there was going to be a state of dormancy awaiting us on the other side, it would have been included somewhere in this list.  But instead, it even mentions death specifically as an expereince that cannot not bring a separation between us and the Father . . .the life he gives is not a temporal life that is only to get is through this realm at which point we'll all go into a waiting pattern until all the rest of those yet to live out their lives have done so. 

To try to say that Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration were just a vision . . .which indicates they are ALIVE on the other side . . .but really, they're not, they're really in a state of nothingness . . .that is extremely misleading in and of itself.  Bottom line, life is . ..eternal.  There is no give and take and give again with God.  His gifts are unrepentant, remember?  If we have eternal life, death can not, nor will it ever take that life away . . .we live on.


Offline Cardinal

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2011, 03:33:30 PM »
:cloud9: Exactly. Decay is what marks time. For instance, you see the seasons change, and you know time has passed, essentially because something has changed from decay.

Being lowered into this bondage of vanity and corruption, started time. It's hard for our finite minds to wrap our head around the concept because we've forgotten what it was like before, IMO. BUT; we get to have tastes of it from time to time, as the Spirit takes us where He wills.

I've been shown scenes in the past and scenes in the future that came to pass. Was "I" there? Very much in spirit, so real, as if I really was there bodily. I believe many in the Word had these same types of experiences with the LIVING Word. This is how John and all the others were able to see what was ahead. Blessings.....

I would love to hear about some of these experiences sometime.

 :cloud9: PM me....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2011, 04:32:08 PM »
If you would but humor me just  a bit more on this . . . how can we call it "eternal life" if it only leads to a state of nothingness?  Does it take a back seat as we go into our state of death . . .awaiting for another resurrection experience?  Was not the invitation of Chirst coming into our hearts the first time around an eternal experience?  Does not Scripture say NOTHING can separate us from the love of God . . .it even specifically states "death" can't.

Or . . .let's tie this all together, can we have true eternal LIFE and still experience spiritual punishment in the end? 

Romans 8
37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I would think that if there was going to be a state of dormancy awaiting us on the other side, it would have been included somewhere in this list.  But instead, it even mentions death specifically as an expereince that cannot not bring a separation between us and the Father . . .the life he gives is not a temporal life that is only to get is through this realm at which point we'll all go into a waiting pattern until all the rest of those yet to live out their lives have done so. 

To try to say that Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration were just a vision . . .which indicates they are ALIVE on the other side . . .but really, they're not, they're really in a state of nothingness . . .that is extremely misleading in and of itself.  Bottom line, life is . ..eternal.  There is no give and take and give again with God.  His gifts are unrepentant, remember?  If we have eternal life, death can not, nor will it ever take that life away . . .we live on.

 :thumbsup:
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2011, 04:51:31 PM »
 :cloud9:  :thumbsup: Yes, the spirit lives on, if this body falls away....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2011, 07:39:42 PM »
#139 BIBLE DICTIONARY John R. Beard

"The word translated 'everlasting' or 'eternal' expresses time, and not eternity.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2011, 10:46:23 PM »
 :cloud9: Tell me; when is eternity's beginning point and ending point?
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Has anyone ever thought of this?
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2011, 05:02:18 AM »
Eternity and everlasting aren't the same.
Eternity has no beginning and no end.
Everlasting has a beginning but no end.
Both are measurements of time.
The fact that everlasting has no end doesn't mean no time passes.
If you have to wait for a cab for an hour it takes a certain percentage of your lifespan.
If you have an everlasting lifespan that percentage is zero. But the hour is still an hour.
I truly wonder if God lives in a time bound reality. (I have reasons to believe He's not.)
Imo that also means He's not eternal as the Bible describes.
The problem with all languages on this planet is that they are all time based; so there is no word to describe infinite length without time (I know of).
Although still not perfect I think WillieH was closest with "is" and "always now"

Try to explain the color orange to a person that has been blind whole his life.
Us discussing timelessness is like two blind people discussing colors :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...