Author Topic: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings  (Read 11447 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« on: August 10, 2011, 12:22:24 AM »
From time to time little thoughts arise that may be connected to a thread that one can no longer find, or maybe you think it's not enough to start a whole new thread with.

I know I've had that happen, and White Wings asked about it, so I thought I'd just start this thread where pertinent observations, ponderings, etc. could be posted.

Blessings, James.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 08:00:56 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2011, 08:50:39 AM »
The Hebrew alphabet has 22 letters. Revelation has 22 chapters.
In the most pure form 400+ verses in Revelation are direct quotes from the OT. The chapters also seem to follow the pattern of the Hebrew alphabet.

Meaning of Hebrew letters: http://www.apocalypse2008-2015.com/hebrewmystery.html

List NT verses which quote OT verses: http://julianspriggs.com/NTquotes.aspx

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Aleax

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2011, 11:47:08 PM »
Random thought of the day...

We are often accused of not having scriptural proof of certain UR events happening, for instance anyone leaving the lake of fire. However, if UR was a given for the first Christians, there simply was no need for a such verse since everyone knew all the punished ones would get out, eventually.

Let's imagine that a part of a school class pulls off some illegal stunt, for example smearing the restroom walls with graffiti. Before the last class on Friday the teacher asks the class who were involved. The guilty students come forth and confess. They are given two hours detention. If I were to write a report of what took place, as an outside observer, I might quite possibly conclude with "the ones found not guilty were allowed to leave for the weekend, but the ones found guilty were made to stay for detention. The end." There would not be any need to further state "But after the ones found guilty had done their punishment they were allowed to leave, too. No-one was forced to stay at school until Monday morning. I repeat, ultimately everyone got to go home."
Behold, I make a few things new.

The Plan of The Ages: God's Unfailing Love Revealed in the Cross

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2011, 01:02:58 AM »
Random thought of the day...

We are often accused of not having scriptural proof of certain UR events happening, for instance anyone leaving the lake of fire. However, if UR was a given for the first Christians, there simply was no need for a such verse since everyone knew all the punished ones would get out, eventually.
Not even that because:
a] In my understanding they understood LoF far differently from most of todays Christians.
b] Jesus never taught about LoF to the public. Revelation was written decades after His death. (that means in the whole OT and most NT God "forgot" to mention ET stuff. Wel....)


(but even pre-Jesus Jews believed in UR)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Aleax

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2011, 01:47:52 PM »
With "first christians" I didn't mean strictly first generation of believers, more like the believers of the first centuries.

I know Jesus didn't teach LoF to the public. It's debatable whether He even taught it at all. Kind of depends on whether you believe "gehenna" was used to denote LoF or whether it was just the garbage dump and nothing else.

How do you think LoF was first understood?
Behold, I make a few things new.

The Plan of The Ages: God's Unfailing Love Revealed in the Cross

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2011, 03:54:11 PM »
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/lake_fire_molten_sea_glass_laver_9507.msg119448.html#msg119448
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/lake_fire_molten_sea_glass_laver_9507.msg122829.html#msg122829

Makes a lot of sense to me. Of couse it's symbolic for something totally different but I don't believe that's real fire.
I think the general public linked the LoF to positive things like everything that's part of the Temple.
They even used brimstone in daily use to get rid of pests in their homes and cure skin conditions.
Priest were in LoF on almost daily basis. Just a few minutes I guess. Only when becoming (high?) priest someone took a real bath in the and was washed by the other priests. At teh beginning of their daily Temple duties they washed themselfs. Not sure but I think it was nothing more than symbolism. Quick washing of the hands. Perhaps a bit in the face.
Dunno but maybe they even saw it as an honor. Taking a bath in the water that literally flowed out of the Holies of Holies.

Gehenna... that's a never ending discussion I think. But looking at their views on it may shed some light on it.
Humilliation was often part of the punishment. People were crucified naked. It puts extra shame to the crime.
Criminals that were executed sometimes/often? were dumped in Gehenna. Not hat the criminal noticed it when dead but he/she knew it would happen. It meant that their time on earth has be a complete waste of time. People that won't be missed. They were nothing but garbage.  I think the Gehenna references only were about the added shame.... That said another thread on this forum shows Gehenna never existed....

Quote
With "first christians" I didn't mean strictly first generation of believers, more like the believers of the first centuries.
All early church fathers spoke only about correction. So my guess is that was exactly their view on LoF. Nothing much changed from pre Christian times. Just visit some Jewish sites and look for articles on hell. You will find none. Only about God correccting and restoring. So imo absolutely nothing changed with the LoF remarks. Jesus just happend to mention LoF. A concept known since Salomons Temple (or earlier????) If Jesus had used Laver,  Pool, Water bassin then the whole hell theory possibly never would have existed.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2011, 06:39:25 AM »
I didn't realize Augustine had made this specific argument 1500+ years ago;

"Is it not folly to assume that eternal punishment signifies a fire lasting a long time, while believing that eternal life is life without end? For Christ, in the very same passage, included both punishment and life in one and the same sentence when he said, "So those people will go into eternal punishment, while the righteous will go into eternal life" (Matt 25:46) If both are "eternal," it follows necessarily that either both are to be taken as long lasting but finite, or both as endless and perpetual. The phrases "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" are parallel and it would be absurd to use them in one and the same sentence to mean "Eternal life will be infinite, while eternal punishment will have an end " Hence, because the eternal life of the saints will be endless, the eternal punishment also, for those condemned to it, will assuredly have no end."

St. Augustine, City of God

Got the above from a quite interesting site.  The guy's not a universalist, but has some pretty interesting thoughts;

http://ekklesiahellweek.wordpress.com/
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2011, 06:49:21 AM »
 :mshock:

As a meditation on sin and its consequences, Dante's Hell is a wake-up call. When John Wesley saw a sin-ravaged man on the street, he remarked to a companion, "There but by the grace of God go I." Dante leaves me feeling that way. Lust, gluttony, wrath, hypocrisy, deception, treachery I'm guilty of every sin from the blustery circle of the lustful to the frigid circle of the treacherous. The architecture of Dante's Hell is the architecture of the human heart. But for the grace of God his gifts of repentance and faith the leopard, lion, and wolf will drive us all lower and lower down the pit to suffer the torments we've chosen.

Dante helps me hate and fear sin in a new way just as he helps me love and treasure the Cross in a new way. His meditation is hard reading and strong medicine medicine that in the feel-good Church of the 21st century, we desperately need to take.  -  QUOTING James Tonkowich

http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001421.cfm
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 10:06:56 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2011, 05:53:10 AM »
I didn't realize Augustine had made this specific argument 1500+ years ago;

"Is it not folly to assume that eternal punishment signifies a fire lasting a long time, while believing that eternal life is life without end? For Christ, in the very same passage, included both punishment and life in one and the same sentence when he said, "So those people will go into eternal punishment, while the righteous will go into eternal life" (Matt 25:46) If both are "eternal," it follows necessarily that either both are to be taken as long lasting but finite, or both as endless and perpetual. The phrases "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" are parallel and it would be absurd to use them in one and the same sentence to mean "Eternal life will be infinite, while eternal punishment will have an end " Hence, because the eternal life of the saints will be endless, the eternal punishment also, for those condemned to it, will assuredly have no end."

St. Augustine, City of God

Got the above from a quite interesting site.  The guy's not a universalist, but has some pretty interesting thoughts;

http://ekklesiahellweek.wordpress.com/

Good thing Matthew 25:46 is not the only verse in the bible about the plan of God :o)

But I guess it is the only one Augustine liked ;o)
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Offline thinktank

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2011, 09:54:36 PM »
:mshock:

As a meditation on sin and its consequences, Dante's Hell is a wake-up call. When John Wesley saw a sin-ravaged man on the street, he remarked to a companion, "There but by the grace of God go I." Dante leaves me feeling that way. Lust, gluttony, wrath, hypocrisy, deception, treachery I'm guilty of every sin from the blustery circle of the lustful to the frigid circle of the treacherous. The architecture of Dante's Hell is the architecture of the human heart. But for the grace of God his gifts of repentance and faith the leopard, lion, and wolf will drive us all lower and lower down the pit to suffer the torments we've chosen.

Dante helps me hate and fear sin in a new way just as he helps me love and treasure the Cross in a new way. His meditation is hard reading and strong medicine medicine that in the feel-good Church of the 21st century, we desperately need to take. - QUOTING James Tonkowich

http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001421.cfm

MY opinion is that Gods will for mankind is worse and more just punishment than Dantes. In UR the villains must face up to their actions and take responsibility, but in Dantes hell, they never have to face up to their crimes and hide away in hell from the lambs justice.

In UR the criminals could have to face their victims in heaven and feel the shame of their actions in front of the hosts of heaven and their familly, they might be sentenced to become slaves for the victims that they did evil too and their concience will drive them to be the best slave they can, so they can be reconcilled and pay penance. The snakes who have killed behind closed doors in the shadows wil not be able to hide from their works. This is a far more terrifying prospect for them than Dantes version, since a lot of these criminals are hardened and do not fear the punishements of Dantes version of hell. I saw saddam hussein face the electric chair without an ounce of fear.

 :2c:


 :bigGrin:  (just added that I was quoting someone, TT)




« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 10:08:14 PM by jabcat »

Offline CHB

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2011, 10:07:46 PM »
I think Saddam was hanged, wasn't he?

CHB

Offline thinktank

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2011, 10:34:28 PM »
I think Saddam was hanged, wasn't he?

CHB


I saw a video of him in a chair,, perhaps he was hanged then

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2011, 10:54:58 AM »
I think Saddam was hanged, wasn't he?
Yes.
SkyNews footage. NO actual execution










Do NOT click the following link if a hanging upsets you!

The actual excecution filmed with a cell phone.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2011, 10:58:51 AM »
All truth passes through three stages. 
First, it is ridiculed,
Second it is violently opposed, and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident."   
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

Because false doctrine is so abundant: "The Truth will be the Strangest Thing you will ever Hear" - Paul Smith

"There is none so blind as those that won't see." - Jonathan Swift.
 
"There is none so deaf as those that won't hear" - Rabbi Samuel Thompson
 
"A man with a revelation is never at the mercy of a man with an argument"-Anonymous
 
"A long habit of thinking a thing is wrong gives the superficial appearance of being right."- Thomas Paine.
 
"A truth's initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply the lie was believed.  When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker, a raving lunatic."  -- Dresden James
 
"When a man or woman is honestly mistaken and hears the truth, they will either quit being mistaken, or they will cease to be honest. "
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline lomarah

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2011, 01:08:04 PM »
TRUTH!! Great quotes WW!
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2011, 05:12:58 PM »
 :cloud9: HA! I had no idea A.Nonymous wrote that...... :icon_king:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2011, 08:18:15 PM »
:cloud9: HA! I had no idea A.Nonymous wrote that...... :icon_king:
Anoying Mouse wrote lots of quotes pf the centuries.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2012, 06:47:43 PM »
Not a letter could be removed from the Law - a saying illustrated by this curious conceit, that the Yod which was taken by God out of the name of Sarah (Sarai), was added to that of Hoshea, making him Joshua (Jehoshua)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2012, 02:37:35 PM »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2012, 04:50:28 PM »
In the The Apocryphal Gospel of the Nativity of Mary, the story is related that Mary had been living at the Temple with other young girls dedicated to the Lord since the age of three years. Her parents Joachim and Anna left her there to be educated.   God the Father thought of Mary as His "lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters"(Songs 2:2).  Mary turned fourteen years of age and the high priest announced that it was time for all girls of that age to return home and get married according to custom.   Mary had made a vow of perpetual virginity to God and told the high priest she could not  marry for this reason.  The high priest consulted with the other priests and they decided that the matter must be taken before the Mercy Seat of the Lord.  A voice was heard that said in order to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah, "a man should be sought out to whom the virgin could be entrusted and espoused."


"But a shoot shall sprout from the stump of Jesse, and from his roots a bud shall blossom.  The spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him: a spirit of wisdom and of understanding, A spirit of counsel and of strength, a spirit of knowledge and of fear of the LORD, and his delight shall be the fear of the LORD (Is 11:1-3). 


All of David's descendants who were eligible for marriage were summoned to bring forth their rods to the altar.  None of their staffs blossomed and the high priest found out from God in prayer that Joseph who was very old by this time had withheld his rod and had not come forth.  Joseph was summoned to bring his staff before the altar of the Lord and it blossomed and the Spirit of the Lord in the form a dove descended upon his staff and settled there.  Mary was obedient and became betrothed to Joseph.  She returned to her parents home in Nazareth and it is shortly thereafter that the Annunciation took place and the angel Gabriel calmed her fears and explained to her God's plan of salvation of which she was to be a significant agent.

Full article
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2012, 02:37:49 PM »

Click to enlarge.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2012, 09:32:52 PM »


Bigger picture


Things are happening in the scientific realm.  Scientists, biologists, people who are studying DNA and chromosomes, are publishing articles through the internet. If they were to publish through their universities, they would not get the next year's funding, and so they publish through an alias on the internet.
 
In Colossians, when Rav Shaul says "by Him (את), all things are held together", the scientific community has shown that a laminin protein holds us together. The image above is from their textbooks, the exact laminin protein in the sign of the tav. Science is saying that without the laminin protein, we'd be nothing more than blobs on the floor.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 10:31:58 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2012, 07:57:22 AM »
bump by request.

 :thumbsup:  there's a really cool video online about laminin. 
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 08:00:41 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23