Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings

[Jeremias]

I didn't realize Augustine had made this specific argument 1500+ years ago;

"Is it not folly to assume that eternal punishment signifies a fire lasting a long time, while believing that eternal life is life without end? For Christ, in the very same passage, included both punishment and life in one and the same sentence when he said, "So those people will go into eternal punishment, while the righteous will go into eternal life" (Matt 25:46) If both are "eternal," it follows necessarily that either both are to be taken as long lasting but finite, or both as endless and perpetual. The phrases "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" are parallel and it would be absurd to use them in one and the same sentence to mean "Eternal life will be infinite, while eternal punishment will have an end " Hence, because the eternal life of the saints will be endless, the eternal punishment also, for those condemned to it, will assuredly have no end."

St. Augustine, City of God

Got the above from a quite interesting site.  The guy's not a universalist, but has some pretty interesting thoughts;

http://ekklesiahellweek.wordpress.com/

[eaglesway]

The source word is Hebrew, 'olam" that is translated to aion. Olam does not mean "a period with a definite beginning and end".

Olam was a word of indefinite meaning, made definite in context with the subject unto which it was yoked. It primarily meant "beyond the veil".

It meant "other world", such as the "life of the other world" or "fire of the other world".

Because of this IMO the focus on aion by both ETrs and URs is a little overboard. Even if someone believes that the NT was spoken in Greek (I believe it was Aramaic and Hebrew)- it should be clear that the speakers(Jesus and the apostles) were Hebrew men steeped in Hebrew thought and that it is a Hebrew paradigm that ought to govern translation.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever(olam):
(Gen 3:22) In this case olam means forever, defined by the immortality that the tree of life gives to the eater

Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever(olam). And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise. It shall not seem hard unto thee, when thou sendest him away free from thee; for he hath been worth a double hired servant to thee, in serving thee six years: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all that thou doest.
(Deu 15:17-18)In this case olam means 6 years

For since the beginning of the world(olam) men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
(Isa 64:4)in this case olam means something akin to "back beyond what we can see"

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old(olam), men of renown.
(Gen 6:4)Again, olam means something akin to "a distant past time".

So you see "olam" is indeterminate and defined by context and the subject it is yoked with. This word is the word that aion is translated from everywhere it is. That is why "aion" is translated in some places "world" rather than "age". Olam frequently meant "other world" as in beyond the veil.

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded "world without end"(olam).
(Isa 45:17)

He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world(olam) in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
(Ecc 3:11KJV)

He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity(olam) in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
(Ecc 3:11NASB)

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He also has planted eternity in men's hearts and minds [a divinely implanted sense of a purpose working through the ages which nothing under the sun but God alone can satisfy], yet so that men cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.
(Ecc 3:11Amp)

He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."
(Ecc 3:11CLV)

From these verses perhaps one can get a sense of the application of olam in Hebrew thought. There are 413 occurrences of the word in the old testament.

[marie glen]

..various musing (and my blog 4 today) ..2 resurrections, the dead will hear his voice and those who hear will live..

I used to think it was possible those who do not come to faith during their life, they were beyond hope and they would perish (the lake of fire being the second "death"). But this too defies all logic and observation (second only to the Bible!)
-  Is it possible those all through history who have never heard the gospel, nor been told of Jesus, are all, every one, beyond hope of believing and repentence? Or, is it possible they simply fall through the cracks? Tell me truly, is that last one possible?
- Jesus told the Pharisees, whom He knew were wanting and plotting to do away with Him, if they were blind they would have no sin, but because they (say they?) are not blind, their sin remains. Not that anyone inherits eternal life without believing in Jesus. "Those who have the Son have life, and those who have not the Son have not life."
- 1 Timothy 4:10 says "God is the savior of all". And Psalm 22:27 says "All the ends of the earth.. will turn to the LORD, and all families of the nations will worship before Him.." (God speaking of His covenant told Abraham that in him "all the families of the earth would be blessed". Not some. "All". The `in him` Paul, centuries later explained, is in Jesus. In Abraham's "seed" who was Jesus, "aLL families of the earth will be blessed".)
-  When man first fell/turned (from perfection/eternal life) God promised and revealed His work, His covenant - Genesis 3:15 - the seed would bruise the serpents head / overcome the devil and his works which is death and the grave - Hebrews 2:14, Revelation 20:14.
- There is one scripture which could suggest unless one believes upon Jesus before death, they are lost. This is when Jesus tells the Pharisees "if you do not believe, you will die in your sins". What does this mean to die in their sins? It means they would be of the second resurrection rather than the first. Surely a far inferior one, as the first resurrection is when immortality and perfection will be "put on" instantaneously with the dead's rising, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
- "...The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and those that hear shall live" - Jesus, John 5:25. After the two resurrections and the long span between them (1,000 years) will be what surely must be a very (very) long day of the examination of all things commonly called "Judgment Day", the examination of all human history and all lives as to what went right and what went wrong (surely? a long day of intense examination and review).
- At the close of this day shall come true those notorious words, "those not" believing ("written in the Book of Life) will go to the second death" - Revelation 20:15. "It pleased God... to reconcile all, things to Himself; by Him" (Jesus) "whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven" - Colossians 1:20.
- "And death and the grave will be thrown into the lake of fire, the second death" - Revelation 20:14. "Then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father.. and the last enemy that will be abolished is death" - 1 Corinthians 15:24,26. "He will wipe all tears from their eyes, and there will be no more death.. nor mourning" - Revelation 21:4.

[misszoolander]

The source word is Hebrew, 'olam" that is translated to aion. Olam does not mean "a period with a definite beginning and end".

Olam was a word of indefinite meaning, made definite in context with the subject unto which it was yoked. It primarily meant "beyond the veil".

It meant "other world", such as the "life of the other world" or "fire of the other world".

Because of this IMO the focus on aion by both ETrs and URs is a little overboard. Even if someone believes that the NT was spoken in Greek (I believe it was Aramaic and Hebrew)- it should be clear that the speakers(Jesus and the apostles) were Hebrew men steeped in Hebrew thought and that it is a Hebrew paradigm that ought to govern translation.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever(olam):
(Gen 3:22) In this case olam means forever, defined by the immortality that the tree of life gives to the eater

Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever(olam). And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise. It shall not seem hard unto thee, when thou sendest him away free from thee; for he hath been worth a double hired servant to thee, in serving thee six years: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all that thou doest.
(Deu 15:17-18)In this case olam means 6 years

For since the beginning of the world(olam) men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
(Isa 64:4)in this case olam means something akin to "back beyond what we can see"

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old(olam), men of renown.
(Gen 6:4)Again, olam means something akin to "a distant past time".

So you see "olam" is indeterminate and defined by context and the subject it is yoked with. This word is the word that aion is translated from everywhere it is. That is why "aion" is translated in some places "world" rather than "age". Olam frequently meant "other world" as in beyond the veil.

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded "world without end"(olam).
(Isa 45:17)

He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world(olam) in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
(Ecc 3:11KJV)

He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity(olam) in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
(Ecc 3:11NASB)

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He also has planted eternity in men's hearts and minds [a divinely implanted sense of a purpose working through the ages which nothing under the sun but God alone can satisfy], yet so that men cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.
(Ecc 3:11Amp)

He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."
(Ecc 3:11CLV)

From these verses perhaps one can get a sense of the application of olam in Hebrew thought. There are 413 occurrences of the word in the old testament.

Olam does not make God eternal, God makes Olam eternal.. is that it? :)

[eaglesway]

Yes exactly. When attached to God, the "unknown quantity" is infinite. The "indefinite quality" is eternal.  When attached to a slaves indenture it is, until he dies or his owner sets him free. When attached to the ancient past, it is "farther back than we can clearly see". When attached to the distant future it is "beyond the horizon". When attached to "kolassis"(correction/punishment) it is until every knee bows and every tongue confesses and God is all in all. When attached to "pur" (fire) it is until all darkness is consumed and every hidden thing is manifest and our God, the consuming fire, is All in All.

olam  unknown, indefinite, beyond the event horizon

[misszoolander]

Wonderful explanation Eagle. 
The way that I always see it (in simpler terms) is the world olam is a bit like the word great. 
Here is my example ..

"The man that gave all his money to the poor is a great man"

now let's compare the word "great" to God.

"God is a great God". See how the word "great" improves it quality and quantity depending on the subject matter? Same thing can be used for the word powerful.

"The man is powerful"

"God is powerful"

This is for those that find it hard to grasp the word aion or olam :) clearly with these examples both words can only mean "without beginning and end" when used according to God and his eternal nature.

[eaglesway]

Yea, I agree, with one exception perhaps. I believe that by insisting that aion never means "forever" or "endless" or "everlasting" or "without beginning or end" proponents of UR have hemmed themselves into an unsustainable argument- because the core thought is "olam" not "aion" which is a Greek paraphrase of "olam" that scholars have unjustifiably elevated to the level of translation.

By insisting that "aion" always means a period with a beginning and an end, they have separated "aion" from "olam"- and objective scholars can see that and they know it doesnt hold.

IMO the better argument is to show the relationship between "olam" and "aion", strengthening the chain of meaning to "olam" as an indefinite period or hidden reality defined  only in relationship to the subject(God, man, slave, period in antiquity, period in distant future, period of correction, etc.)