Author Topic: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings  (Read 12387 times)

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Offline Jeremias

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Re: Grab Bag - Various UR Points, Thoughts, Questions...
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2012, 08:31:07 AM »
I didn't realize Augustine had made this specific argument 1500+ years ago;

"Is it not folly to assume that eternal punishment signifies a fire lasting a long time, while believing that eternal life is life without end? For Christ, in the very same passage, included both punishment and life in one and the same sentence when he said, "So those people will go into eternal punishment, while the righteous will go into eternal life" (Matt 25:46) If both are "eternal," it follows necessarily that either both are to be taken as long lasting but finite, or both as endless and perpetual. The phrases "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" are parallel and it would be absurd to use them in one and the same sentence to mean "Eternal life will be infinite, while eternal punishment will have an end " Hence, because the eternal life of the saints will be endless, the eternal punishment also, for those condemned to it, will assuredly have no end."

St. Augustine, City of God

Got the above from a quite interesting site.  The guy's not a universalist, but has some pretty interesting thoughts;

http://ekklesiahellweek.wordpress.com/
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 09:48:16 PM by Jeremias »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2012, 08:13:56 AM »
The source word is Hebrew, 'olam" that is translated to aion. Olam does not mean "a period with a definite beginning and end".

Olam was a word of indefinite meaning, made definite in context with the subject unto which it was yoked. It primarily meant "beyond the veil".

It meant "other world", such as the "life of the other world" or "fire of the other world".

Because of this IMO the focus on aion by both ETrs and URs is a little overboard. Even if someone believes that the NT was spoken in Greek (I believe it was Aramaic and Hebrew)- it should be clear that the speakers(Jesus and the apostles) were Hebrew men steeped in Hebrew thought and that it is a Hebrew paradigm that ought to govern translation.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever(olam):
(Gen 3:22) In this case olam means forever, defined by the immortality that the tree of life gives to the eater

Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever(olam). And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise. It shall not seem hard unto thee, when thou sendest him away free from thee; for he hath been worth a double hired servant to thee, in serving thee six years: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all that thou doest.
(Deu 15:17-18)In this case olam means 6 years

For since the beginning of the world(olam) men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
(Isa 64:4)in this case olam means something akin to "back beyond what we can see"

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old(olam), men of renown.
(Gen 6:4)Again, olam means something akin to "a distant past time".

So you see "olam" is indeterminate and defined by context and the subject it is yoked with. This word is the word that aion is translated from everywhere it is. That is why "aion" is translated in some places "world" rather than "age". Olam frequently meant "other world" as in beyond the veil.

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded "world without end"(olam).
(Isa 45:17)

He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world(olam) in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
(Ecc 3:11KJV)

He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity(olam) in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
(Ecc 3:11NASB)

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He also has planted eternity in men's hearts and minds [a divinely implanted sense of a purpose working through the ages which nothing under the sun but God alone can satisfy], yet so that men cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.
(Ecc 3:11Amp)

He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."
(Ecc 3:11CLV)

From these verses perhaps one can get a sense of the application of olam in Hebrew thought. There are 413 occurrences of the word in the old testament.











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Offline marie glen

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2013, 06:30:34 PM »
..various musing (and my blog 4 today) ..2 resurrections, the dead will hear his voice and those who hear will live..

I used to think it was possible those who do not come to faith during their life, they were beyond hope and they would perish (the lake of fire being the second "death"). But this too defies all logic and observation (second only to the Bible!)
-  Is it possible those all through history who have never heard the gospel, nor been told of Jesus, are all, every one, beyond hope of believing and repentence? Or, is it possible they simply fall through the cracks? Tell me truly, is that last one possible?
- Jesus told the Pharisees, whom He knew were wanting and plotting to do away with Him, if they were blind they would have no sin, but because they (say they?) are not blind, their sin remains. Not that anyone inherits eternal life without believing in Jesus. "Those who have the Son have life, and those who have not the Son have not life."
- 1 Timothy 4:10 says "God is the savior of all". And Psalm 22:27 says "All the ends of the earth.. will turn to the LORD, and all families of the nations will worship before Him.." (God speaking of His covenant told Abraham that in him "all the families of the earth would be blessed". Not some. "All". The `in him` Paul, centuries later explained, is in Jesus. In Abraham's "seed" who was Jesus, "aLL families of the earth will be blessed".)
-  When man first fell/turned (from perfection/eternal life) God promised and revealed His work, His covenant - Genesis 3:15 - the seed would bruise the serpents head / overcome the devil and his works which is death and the grave - Hebrews 2:14, Revelation 20:14.
- There is one scripture which could suggest unless one believes upon Jesus before death, they are lost. This is when Jesus tells the Pharisees "if you do not believe, you will die in your sins". What does this mean to die in their sins? It means they would be of the second resurrection rather than the first. Surely a far inferior one, as the first resurrection is when immortality and perfection will be "put on" instantaneously with the dead's rising, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
- "...The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and those that hear shall live" - Jesus, John 5:25. After the two resurrections and the long span between them (1,000 years) will be what surely must be a very (very) long day of the examination of all things commonly called "Judgment Day", the examination of all human history and all lives as to what went right and what went wrong (surely? a long day of intense examination and review).
- At the close of this day shall come true those notorious words, "those not" believing ("written in the Book of Life) will go to the second death" - Revelation 20:15. "It pleased God... to reconcile all, things to Himself; by Him" (Jesus) "whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven" - Colossians 1:20.
- "And death and the grave will be thrown into the lake of fire, the second death" - Revelation 20:14. "Then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father.. and the last enemy that will be abolished is death" - 1 Corinthians 15:24,26. "He will wipe all tears from their eyes, and there will be no more death.. nor mourning" - Revelation 21:4.
- Does it say no repentance after death? being resurrected still in their sins (2nd Resurrection) during age of Judgment? sure to be weeping and wailing?
- Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
- "Behold I make aLL things new" Rev21:5
- "On every high mountain and hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day ..when the towers fall." Is 30:25
- "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1
- "The lion will eat straw like the ox.. the bear will graze with the cow" Is 11:7
- "They will sit each under his vine, and under his fig-tree, with none troubling.." Micah 4:4

Offline misszoolander

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2013, 01:18:20 AM »
The source word is Hebrew, 'olam" that is translated to aion. Olam does not mean "a period with a definite beginning and end".

Olam was a word of indefinite meaning, made definite in context with the subject unto which it was yoked. It primarily meant "beyond the veil".

It meant "other world", such as the "life of the other world" or "fire of the other world".

Because of this IMO the focus on aion by both ETrs and URs is a little overboard. Even if someone believes that the NT was spoken in Greek (I believe it was Aramaic and Hebrew)- it should be clear that the speakers(Jesus and the apostles) were Hebrew men steeped in Hebrew thought and that it is a Hebrew paradigm that ought to govern translation.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever(olam):
(Gen 3:22) In this case olam means forever, defined by the immortality that the tree of life gives to the eater

Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever(olam). And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise. It shall not seem hard unto thee, when thou sendest him away free from thee; for he hath been worth a double hired servant to thee, in serving thee six years: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all that thou doest.
(Deu 15:17-18)In this case olam means 6 years

For since the beginning of the world(olam) men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
(Isa 64:4)in this case olam means something akin to "back beyond what we can see"

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old(olam), men of renown.
(Gen 6:4)Again, olam means something akin to "a distant past time".

So you see "olam" is indeterminate and defined by context and the subject it is yoked with. This word is the word that aion is translated from everywhere it is. That is why "aion" is translated in some places "world" rather than "age". Olam frequently meant "other world" as in beyond the veil.

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded "world without end"(olam).
(Isa 45:17)

He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world(olam) in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
(Ecc 3:11KJV)

He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity(olam) in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
(Ecc 3:11NASB)

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He also has planted eternity in men's hearts and minds [a divinely implanted sense of a purpose working through the ages which nothing under the sun but God alone can satisfy], yet so that men cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.
(Ecc 3:11Amp)

He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."
(Ecc 3:11CLV)

From these verses perhaps one can get a sense of the application of olam in Hebrew thought. There are 413 occurrences of the word in the old testament.

Olam does not make God eternal, God makes Olam eternal.. is that it? :)
It is well with my soul.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2013, 08:22:33 AM »
Yes exactly. When attached to God, the "unknown quantity" is infinite. The "indefinite quality" is eternal.  When attached to a slaves indenture it is, until he dies or his owner sets him free. When attached to the ancient past, it is "farther back than we can clearly see". When attached to the distant future it is "beyond the horizon". When attached to "kolassis"(correction/punishment) it is until every knee bows and every tongue confesses and God is all in all. When attached to "pur" (fire) it is until all darkness is consumed and every hidden thing is manifest and our God, the consuming fire, is All in All.

olam  unknown, indefinite, beyond the event horizon
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Offline misszoolander

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2013, 10:14:55 PM »
Wonderful explanation Eagle.  :thumbsup:
The way that I always see it (in simpler terms) is the world olam is a bit like the word great. 
Here is my example ..

"The man that gave all his money to the poor is a great man"

now let's compare the word "great" to God.

"God is a great God". See how the word "great" improves it quality and quantity depending on the subject matter? Same thing can be used for the word powerful.

"The man is powerful"

"God is powerful"

This is for those that find it hard to grasp the word aion or olam :) clearly with these examples both words can only mean "without beginning and end" when used according to God and his eternal nature.



It is well with my soul.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2013, 05:28:17 AM »
Yea, I agree, with one exception perhaps. I believe that by insisting that aion never means "forever" or "endless" or "everlasting" or "without beginning or end" proponents of UR have hemmed themselves into an unsustainable argument- because the core thought is "olam" not "aion" which is a Greek paraphrase of "olam" that scholars have unjustifiably elevated to the level of translation.

By insisting that "aion" always means a period with a beginning and an end, they have separated "aion" from "olam"- and objective scholars can see that and they know it doesnt hold.

IMO the better argument is to show the relationship between "olam" and "aion", strengthening the chain of meaning to "olam" as an indefinite period or hidden reality defined  only in relationship to the subject(God, man, slave, period in antiquity, period in distant future, period of correction, etc.)
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2013, 06:51:01 PM »
Rev 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot on the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

Sea is living mankind. + Earth is grave.  = Authority over both the living and the dead.

It's fair to assume this takes place on the coastline of Israel. When the right foot is in the sea and the left on the land of Israel the person faces south. Imo more importantly the back faces north toward Gog/Magog. Disinheritance. Death. War follows.

Just a  :Chinscratch: worth about  :2c:


« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 11:48:00 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #58 on: August 17, 2013, 07:00:20 PM »
Ezek 3:1 Moreover he said to me, Son of man, eat that you find; eat this roll, and go speak to the house of Israel.
2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll.
3 And he said to me, Son of man, cause your belly to eat, and fill your bowels with this roll that I give you. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.

Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

I'm unable to place the Rev verse in context but when young Jewish boys first went to Torah class the rabbi instructed them to dip the corner or their Torah scroll in honey. Tear it off and eat it.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #59 on: August 17, 2013, 07:40:33 PM »
Rev 19:16 And he has on his clothing and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

It's not a tatoo. It's not even written. Jews wear talits, prayer shawls. A shawl had tassels on its corners. The tassels were made in a special way (strands and knots) and spelled the name of God. So imo it was a tassel hanging on the riders tigh.
Which is of importance because it means this white horse rider has a full talit while the first satanic white horse ride had only a crown which wasn't a regular crown but the part of the talit called a crown because usually it had golden letters on it.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 11:49:13 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #60 on: August 17, 2013, 09:56:20 PM »
" but part of the toilet called a crown."  Toilet?? am I missing something - as usual?
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2013, 11:14:49 AM »

When the left foot is in the sea and the right on the land of Israel the person faces south. Imo more importantly the back faces north toward Gog/Magog.

Nope - you'd be facing North.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2013, 11:41:40 AM »

When the left foot is in the sea and the right on the land of Israel the person faces south. Imo more importantly the back faces north toward Gog/Magog.

Nope - you'd be facing North.
Well spotted LS. I wrote the exact opposite of the verse. I'll edit my post.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2013, 12:02:57 PM »
Matt 6:5 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

This wasn't a room* as we find in a house. It was the talit/prayer shawl pulled over the head.
*=closet in other translations.

The Greek word here for "closet" is the Greek Word "temian".  It is literally mean an inner chamber or "secret Room"

The shawl usually (always?) is blue/white.
WHITE: Representing the Heavens, which is the dwelling place of the Lord! The Color Blue Representing "Ruach Ha Kodesh" the Holy Spirit of God! Therefore when they pray under the "talith", the prayer-shawl, they are literally, it's like you are covering yourself with the presence of God!

Rather weak proof for this is that Jesus was traveling a lot and likely often slept outside. He didn't have a closet/room to hide in. In fact most Jewish houses were just single room houses.

As usual, totally contrary to commonly accepted understanding....  :Pray:
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:03:30 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #64 on: August 19, 2013, 01:19:07 AM »
I would disagree with that conclusion WW (which doesnt make me right of course :o)

The key word is secret in my opinion. Jesus was speaking to the issue of those who made "a great show" of their holiness in praying for public attention. He was explaining that God has no regard for such demonstrations- they impress man, not God. I don't think Jesus was instructing men to go into any particular room or to pray under a shawl either. He was making a point about reality- what God regards as real in us, and how we understand it- or don't. Sometimes we get lost in the details and miss the point. The point is the thing that matters. The details may help or hinder our "getting it".
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #65 on: August 19, 2013, 04:03:30 PM »
EW, to my understanding "the room" or "the closet" was a commonly accepted idiom. If so Jesus wasn't defining or instructing something new but merely pointing to a custom every Jew knew about.
He uses it as a contrast to those finding high exposing places to act as holy as they can. (on which we fully agree)
Quote
The point is the thing that matters. The details may help or hinder our "getting it".
Likely that is so in some cases. But in my opinion that the risk is vastly outweighed by finding the details which often are customs which in their turn can provide a valuable key.
That's my approach as about everyone must be aware of :declare: I can't imagine doing things otherwise while others love the opposite approach.
That's life...
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 04:08:05 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #66 on: August 19, 2013, 07:44:47 PM »
Matt 6:5 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

This wasn't a room* as we find in a house. It was the talit/prayer shawl pulled over the head.
*=closet in other translations.

The Greek word here for "closet" is the Greek Word "temian".  It is literally mean an inner chamber or "secret Room"

The shawl usually (always?) is blue/white.
WHITE: Representing the Heavens, which is the dwelling place of the Lord! The Color Blue Representing "Ruach Ha Kodesh" the Holy Spirit of God! Therefore when they pray under the "talith", the prayer-shawl, they are literally, it's like you are covering yourself with the presence of God!

Rather week proof for this is that Jesus was traveling a lot and likely often slept outside. He didn't have a closet/room to hide in. In fact most Jewish houses were just single room houses.

As usual, totally contrary to commonly accepted understanding....  :Pray:


I'm just coming back temporarily to say this is a beautiful post, ww, and really moved me.


This is the way I see it.  Jesus is saying, pray under the covering of the Holy Spirit in the very presence of God [the Holy Spirit is God,  the third Person of the trinity].


You will remember that the disciples received the Holy Spirit twice.  Once from the resurrected Christ directly, when he breathed on them and said, Receive ye the Holy Spirit.  This is the indwelling Spirit.


 But, then, the second time--he told them to wait in the upper room [to be anointed by the Holy Spirit,] where the Holy Spirit descends on their heads from above in tongues of fire--this is a baptism of the Holy Spirit, an anointing, in the same way the kings and priests were anointed, the oil poured over the head, and running down the beard onto the clothes, an external covering.


1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.


2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
--Psa 91





"in the secret place"

H5643

סתרה סתר

sêther sithrâh

say'-ther, sith-raw'

From H5641; a cover (in a good or a bad, a literal or a figurative sense): - backbiting, covering, covert, X disguise [-th], hiding place, privily, protection, secret (-ly, place).



From the root word H5641 meaning to hide, keep close, conceal.


Mat 6:5  When you pray, --[go into the secret place, under the covering of the Holy Spirit, in the very presence of God...]


This is the covering Jesus used to conceal himself in the midst of crowds who had decided to kill him for claiming to be God.




God is doing a mighty work in you, ww, as I always knew he would.


God bless.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 08:04:43 PM by Molly »

Offline mplsfitter539

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #67 on: August 19, 2013, 08:14:46 PM »



This is the way I see it.  Jesus is saying, pray under the covering of the Holy Spirit in the very presence of God [the Holy Spirit is God,  the third Person of the trinity].


 
Molly the Holy Spirit is not the "third person of the trinity". We have discussed this before and you didn't have much if any support for it the last time it came up. You are not going to change peoples minds by slipping it in where ever you see the opportunity. I for one would appreciate if you keep the false doctrine of the trinity under your talit.

DuWayne
Shema O Israel, Yahweh our Elohim is Yahweh echad!!!

Offline dajomaco

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #68 on: August 19, 2013, 08:26:54 PM »
The battle is in my mind .
The flesh and the spirit at war.

When I pray in a manner, that the results of such prayer,
are evident to those around me.
Those around me will want to appeal to me and my flesh to
do it again .They want it bigger they me to hit the rock harder.

When I pray and the evidence, of the results of such prayers,
are only spiritually discerned .

I and my flesh can be easily dismissed .

I and my spirit will not be denied.
God will extract the Glory for Jesus as I give up
my Flesh's desire to bring Glory to the Christ.     

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #69 on: August 19, 2013, 08:29:52 PM »
DuWayne your post to Molly is out of line.  She has the right to air her views as much as you do.  She is within the guidelines of the forum in her post, regardless of whether or not you think her view is false. 

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2013, 09:14:29 PM »
Matt 6:5 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

This wasn't a room* as we find in a house. It was the talit/prayer shawl pulled over the head.
*=closet in other translations.

The Greek word here for "closet" is the Greek Word "temian".  It is literally mean an inner chamber or "secret Room"

The shawl usually (always?) is blue/white.
WHITE: Representing the Heavens, which is the dwelling place of the Lord! The Color Blue Representing "Ruach Ha Kodesh" the Holy Spirit of God! Therefore when they pray under the "talith", the prayer-shawl, they are literally, it's like you are covering yourself with the presence of God!

Rather week proof for this is that Jesus was traveling a lot and likely often slept outside. He didn't have a closet/room to hide in. In fact most Jewish houses were just single room houses.

As usual, totally contrary to commonly accepted understanding....  :Pray:


I'm just coming back temporarily to say this is a beautiful post, ww, and really moved me.


This is the way I see it.  Jesus is saying, pray under the covering of the Holy Spirit in the very presence of God [the Holy Spirit is God,  the third Person of the trinity].

For more suprises check out what the 4 angels on the corners of the earth are holding. :dsunny:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #71 on: August 20, 2013, 12:39:30 AM »
The battle is in my mind .
The flesh and the spirit at war.

When I pray in a manner, that the results of such prayer,
are evident to those around me.
Those around me will want to appeal to me and my flesh to
do it again .They want it bigger they me to hit the rock harder.

When I pray and the evidence, of the results of such prayers,
are only spiritually discerned .

I and my flesh can be easily dismissed .

I and my spirit will not be denied.
God will extract the Glory for Jesus as I give up
my Flesh's desire to bring Glory to the Christ.   

 :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #72 on: August 20, 2013, 12:45:57 AM »
DuWayne your post to Molly is out of line.  She has the right to air her views as much as you do.  She is within the guidelines of the forum in her post, regardless of whether or not you think her view is false.

"This is the way I see it.  Jesus is saying, pray under the covering of the Holy Spirit in the very presence of God [the Holy Spirit is God,  the third Person of the trinity]." (Molly)

I will only say redhotmagma you must admit throwing in the statement, "[the Holy Spirit is God,  the third Person of the trinity]" would raise a feather or two.  :2c:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline mplsfitter539

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #73 on: August 20, 2013, 03:22:44 AM »
DuWayne your post to Molly is out of line.  She has the right to air her views as much as you do.  She is within the guidelines of the forum in her post, regardless of whether or not you think her view is false.
My problem is not with Molly's point of view but the thread was locked for a reason and I would think that she would have to common courtesy to not bring up that forbidden subject again.   I am trying to honor what the mods had decided by steering clear of it altogether and then  she brings it up again. It is a passionate subject to me because I see it for what it is....pagan doctrine.
Shema O Israel, Yahweh our Elohim is Yahweh echad!!!

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings
« Reply #74 on: August 20, 2013, 03:54:08 AM »
All well and good Moderates, yet, a "pagan doctrine," in this case a religious theory, for me, is one that has no evidence of verse that states this, that, or whatever has substance. THAT is the rub, no offence intended; there is no evidence, in even one of the translations I have that the Holy Spirit is a person or speaks of any trinity. I sent a PM to Molly regretting that our discourse came to such a plight that would cause a silence of division, as it seems to have. But for me her post was a slight.  :HeartThrob:
And should this response cause me to be dropped(polite word) then that is what it will be. I do not feel( a syndrome of a human) that  mplsfitter539's response was out of line. :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.