Discussions Relating to Universal Reconciliation > Discussions on Universal Salvation

Grab Bag - Various Christian/UR Musings

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WhiteWings:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/lake_fire_molten_sea_glass_laver_9507.msg119448.html#msg119448
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/lake_fire_molten_sea_glass_laver_9507.msg122829.html#msg122829

Makes a lot of sense to me. Of couse it's symbolic for something totally different but I don't believe that's real fire.
I think the general public linked the LoF to positive things like everything that's part of the Temple.
They even used brimstone in daily use to get rid of pests in their homes and cure skin conditions.
Priest were in LoF on almost daily basis. Just a few minutes I guess. Only when becoming (high?) priest someone took a real bath in the and was washed by the other priests. At teh beginning of their daily Temple duties they washed themselfs. Not sure but I think it was nothing more than symbolism. Quick washing of the hands. Perhaps a bit in the face.
Dunno but maybe they even saw it as an honor. Taking a bath in the water that literally flowed out of the Holies of Holies.

Gehenna... that's a never ending discussion I think. But looking at their views on it may shed some light on it.
Humilliation was often part of the punishment. People were crucified naked. It puts extra shame to the crime.
Criminals that were executed sometimes/often? were dumped in Gehenna. Not hat the criminal noticed it when dead but he/she knew it would happen. It meant that their time on earth has be a complete waste of time. People that won't be missed. They were nothing but garbage.  I think the Gehenna references only were about the added shame.... That said another thread on this forum shows Gehenna never existed....


--- Quote ---With "first christians" I didn't mean strictly first generation of believers, more like the believers of the first centuries.
--- End quote ---
All early church fathers spoke only about correction. So my guess is that was exactly their view on LoF. Nothing much changed from pre Christian times. Just visit some Jewish sites and look for articles on hell. You will find none. Only about God correccting and restoring. So imo absolutely nothing changed with the LoF remarks. Jesus just happend to mention LoF. A concept known since Salomons Temple (or earlier????) If Jesus had used Laver,  Pool, Water bassin then the whole hell theory possibly never would have existed.

WhiteWings:
A list of the 613 OT laws.

jabcat:
I didn't realize Augustine had made this specific argument 1500+ years ago;

"Is it not folly to assume that eternal punishment signifies a fire lasting a long time, while believing that eternal life is life without end? For Christ, in the very same passage, included both punishment and life in one and the same sentence when he said, "So those people will go into eternal punishment, while the righteous will go into eternal life" (Matt 25:46) If both are "eternal," it follows necessarily that either both are to be taken as long lasting but finite, or both as endless and perpetual. The phrases "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" are parallel and it would be absurd to use them in one and the same sentence to mean "Eternal life will be infinite, while eternal punishment will have an end " Hence, because the eternal life of the saints will be endless, the eternal punishment also, for those condemned to it, will assuredly have no end."

St. Augustine, City of God

Got the above from a quite interesting site.  The guy's not a universalist, but has some pretty interesting thoughts;

http://ekklesiahellweek.wordpress.com/

jabcat:
 :mshock:

As a meditation on sin and its consequences, Dante's Hell is a wake-up call. When John Wesley saw a sin-ravaged man on the street, he remarked to a companion, "There but by the grace of God go I." Dante leaves me feeling that way. Lust, gluttony, wrath, hypocrisy, deception, treachery I'm guilty of every sin from the blustery circle of the lustful to the frigid circle of the treacherous. The architecture of Dante's Hell is the architecture of the human heart. But for the grace of God his gifts of repentance and faith the leopard, lion, and wolf will drive us all lower and lower down the pit to suffer the torments we've chosen.

Dante helps me hate and fear sin in a new way just as he helps me love and treasure the Cross in a new way. His meditation is hard reading and strong medicine medicine that in the feel-good Church of the 21st century, we desperately need to take.  -  QUOTING James Tonkowich

http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001421.cfm

eaglesway:

--- Quote from: jabcat on November 17, 2011, 06:39:25 AM ---I didn't realize Augustine had made this specific argument 1500+ years ago;

"Is it not folly to assume that eternal punishment signifies a fire lasting a long time, while believing that eternal life is life without end? For Christ, in the very same passage, included both punishment and life in one and the same sentence when he said, "So those people will go into eternal punishment, while the righteous will go into eternal life" (Matt 25:46) If both are "eternal," it follows necessarily that either both are to be taken as long lasting but finite, or both as endless and perpetual. The phrases "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" are parallel and it would be absurd to use them in one and the same sentence to mean "Eternal life will be infinite, while eternal punishment will have an end " Hence, because the eternal life of the saints will be endless, the eternal punishment also, for those condemned to it, will assuredly have no end."

St. Augustine, City of God

Got the above from a quite interesting site.  The guy's not a universalist, but has some pretty interesting thoughts;

http://ekklesiahellweek.wordpress.com/

--- End quote ---

Good thing Matthew 25:46 is not the only verse in the bible about the plan of God :o)

But I guess it is the only one Augustine liked ;o)

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