Going to hell (in a hand basket, like Paul)

[whyiloveitaly]

Well, my grandpa was really special to me. He was meek, never judging, never criticizing, always receiving others. And his message of salvation included everyone. (All grandpas are special, no?)

However, he also talked about something that I've never heard others talk about, even though it seems so 'in line' with the Spirit of Christ: he told me, "Brian, when I die, I hope to go to hell!"
"Really??" I asked.
"Yep. Because then I can preach to those in prison, as Jesus did! In fact, He said, where I go, ye will go after."
Wow! Preaching to spirits in prison! How WONDERFUL!!!!!! What a PRIVILEDGE!! (And didn't Moses intervene for Isreal?--'if you destroy them, then destroy me, too!!')

And Paul would have traded his salvation for condemnation for his neighbor's sake!

Bello, bello, bello! Hallelujah!!

Hope this is a blessing to someone!

Brian

[AbbasChild]

Interesting thought. A friend of mine (who hasn't seen UR yet- as far as I know) once told me that he wants to stay behind if there is a 'rapture' cause there would be a lot to do then. He was pretty close to the Spirit of Christ with that statement as well I think. Thank you for sharing this.

[Cardinal]

  Sounds like Grandpa knew more than he was telling.....

[Kimberlaina]

Reading this thread was a really eerie experience for me.  I recall a few years ago when rapture-mania was being fueled by the Left Behind series.  My best friend from high school gave me the first book in the series and I absolutely loved it.  As I continued to read the series, though, I discovered what were the first theological disagreements with many of my fellow church members and friends.

Most of my friends bought into the idea of a Rapture, while I parted ways with them on this topic and could not theologically justify it.  If there was a Rapture, though, I thought of how much more interesting it would be to be a double agent for Christ in the Antichrist's government, as opposed to watching all the action from the Peanut Gallery of Heaven.  Meanwhile, all my friends were celebrating how they would be in heaven watching all the unbelievers suffer, and honestly, I couldn't buy into that.

The real sticking point for me was Nicolae Carpathia (the Antichrist character).  I know that sounds really weird, and it felt really wrong at the time I was reading.  I was 15 when I started the series and over the months that I read it I was involved in a very troubled romantic relationship.  The kid I was involved with was eerily similar to Nicolae Carpathia -- he was from Western Europe, handsome, extremely intelligent, spoke many languages, etc.  In a nutshell, he fit the typical evangelical image of the Antichrist.  His parents' names, in an eerie coincidence, were Mary-Jo and Peter.  His father had died when he was very young and he was spiritually very troubled.  He claimed to be Catholic sometimes but other times he would say he was an atheist.  I made the connection between my sweetheart and Nicolae almost immediately when I began reading the series.  As things progressed my boyfriend, if you could call him that, became increasingly depressed and atheistic.  As the series progressed, I began to see that the authors of Left Behind felt that it was okay and good for God to choose a man to be the Antichrist and basically throw him away like a piece of trash.  I saw this boy I was pretty sure I loved headed in a very bad direction -- he was someone who could become like Nicolae very easily.  I wondered if God was going to throw him away, too. 

While in Europe visiting him I had an very strange experience.  We went to Sacre Coeur together.  The basilica was under renovation at the time, but we toured it anyway.  I was not Catholic and I always feel like a sort of 'outsider' when visiting Catholic churches, even touristy ones, and I did here as well.  I crept into the church quietly behind him but by the time I dared go inside I couldn't see him anymore.  He was far in the back of the church, in the quiet space behind the altar.  I just couldn't follow him any further.  I always wonder what drew him back there so quickly.  I always think he was trying to figure out what happened to his dad, where his dad was, talking to God, maybe.  I wondered how God could give a young man such a confusing life in such a short time and then turn him into something reprehensible and unapologetically destine him to an eternal torment -- eternal torment simply because he fulfilled God's purpose for his life.  I am pretty sure by now that he is completely atheist if you'd ask him, though he has to wonder what happened to his dad.  I haven't talked to him in almost a decade now.  I have to say, though, the feeling of watching a loved one slip into hell and feeling like no one else cared was the first thing in my life that pushed me toward Universal Reconciliation.

To the original poster, I completely understand what you're saying.

[whyiloveitaly]

Kimberlaina:
I, too, know of people who were witnessed to with the 'turn or burn' message. I still don't know how people can reconcile the concept of love with the idea of eternal torment. It just doesn't make sense to me. And I don't think that UR is even really a revelation, but just common sense.

I believe that a Christian of the heart is a person who would be willing to go to hell (if it existed) for his neighbor. That, I believe, is the Spirit of Christ. It is a spirit of sacrifice, in all areas of life.



On another note, I have a feeling that we, in general, don't have a real sense of the devil and his purpose. Paul suggested 'turning one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit might be saved.'
-How many Christians are willing to 'turn someone over to satan' nowadays??????


I feel we have so much to learn..  But then again, maybe love is really all we need..!

Brian

[Redlettervoice]

Sounds like Grandpa knew more than he was telling.....

I HEARD that, girl!

[ragamuffin34]

Well, my grandpa was really special to me. He was meek, never judging, never criticizing, always receiving others. And his message of salvation included everyone. (All grandpas are special, no?)

However, he also talked about something that I've never heard others talk about, even though it seems so 'in line' with the Spirit of Christ: he told me, "Brian, when I die, I hope to go to hell!"
"Really??" I asked.
"Yep. Because then I can preach to those in prison, as Jesus did! In fact, He said, where I go, ye will go after."
Wow! Preaching to spirits in prison! How WONDERFUL!!!!!! What a PRIVILEDGE!! (And didn't Moses intervene for Isreal?--'if you destroy them, then destroy me, too!!')

And Paul would have traded his salvation for condemnation for his neighbor's sake!

Bello, bello, bello! Hallelujah!!

Hope this is a blessing to someone!

Brian

That was quite a blessing to me. thanks Brian!

This reminds me of a lot of things Mark Twain wrote.  Most memorably, the passage in Huck Finn where Huck decides he would rather go to hell than betray Jim because he loves him.

[adam]

reading this thread really was a blessing. I've often felt it might be the right thing to do- to try and go down into hell to help out after death. I've sometimes felt I might be mad, its so good to see there's others who think the same way!

Possibly their is a continual stream of Angels and concerned souls going down there to help the lost find their way to heaven?

1 Peter 4:6
for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are
dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the Spirit

[Cardinal]

  If He that descended is the same as He that ascended, and we're one in the Spirit with Him............

[whyiloveitaly]

Thanks all...

Adam: I can almost feel the love you have for the unbelieving.. it's marvellous! -I wish we knew more of what Jesus did and said before returning to the Father!....

God's ways are not our ways. I truely believe that God is not as intolerant as we are. (Note that Paul, too, desired to be cast aside for his brothers' sake.. That's a holy spirit of reconciliation, not seeking its own!)

Blessings to all,
Brian

[Akira Takahashi]

Reading this thread was a really eerie experience for me.  I recall a few years ago when rapture-mania was being fueled by the Left Behind series.  My best friend from high school gave me the first book in the series and I absolutely loved it.  As I continued to read the series, though, I discovered what were the first theological disagreements with many of my fellow church members and friends.

Most of my friends bought into the idea of a Rapture, while I parted ways with them on this topic and could not theologically justify it.  If there was a Rapture, though, I thought of how much more interesting it would be to be a double agent for Christ in the Antichrist's government, as opposed to watching all the action from the Peanut Gallery of Heaven.  Meanwhile, all my friends were celebrating how they would be in heaven watching all the unbelievers suffer, and honestly, I couldn't buy into that.

The real sticking point for me was Nicolae Carpathia (the Antichrist character).  I know that sounds really weird, and it felt really wrong at the time I was reading.  I was 15 when I started the series and over the months that I read it I was involved in a very troubled romantic relationship.  The kid I was involved with was eerily similar to Nicolae Carpathia -- he was from Western Europe, handsome, extremely intelligent, spoke many languages, etc.  In a nutshell, he fit the typical evangelical image of the Antichrist.  His parents' names, in an eerie coincidence, were Mary-Jo and Peter.  His father had died when he was very young and he was spiritually very troubled.  He claimed to be Catholic sometimes but other times he would say he was an atheist.  I made the connection between my sweetheart and Nicolae almost immediately when I began reading the series.  As things progressed my boyfriend, if you could call him that, became increasingly depressed and atheistic.  As the series progressed, I began to see that the authors of Left Behind felt that it was okay and good for God to choose a man to be the Antichrist and basically throw him away like a piece of trash.  I saw this boy I was pretty sure I loved headed in a very bad direction -- he was someone who could become like Nicolae very easily.  I wondered if God was going to throw him away, too. 

While in Europe visiting him I had an very strange experience.  We went to Sacre Coeur together.  The basilica was under renovation at the time, but we toured it anyway.  I was not Catholic and I always feel like a sort of 'outsider' when visiting Catholic churches, even touristy ones, and I did here as well.  I crept into the church quietly behind him but by the time I dared go inside I couldn't see him anymore.  He was far in the back of the church, in the quiet space behind the altar.  I just couldn't follow him any further.  I always wonder what drew him back there so quickly.  I always think he was trying to figure out what happened to his dad, where his dad was, talking to God, maybe.  I wondered how God could give a young man such a confusing life in such a short time and then turn him into something reprehensible and unapologetically destine him to an eternal torment -- eternal torment simply because he fulfilled God's purpose for his life.  I am pretty sure by now that he is completely atheist if you'd ask him, though he has to wonder what happened to his dad.  I haven't talked to him in almost a decade now.  I have to say, though, the feeling of watching a loved one slip into hell and feeling like no one else cared was the first thing in my life that pushed me toward Universal Reconciliation.

To the original poster, I completely understand what you're saying.

Hmmm... I was never as into Left Behind as my mom was.  She read those books as though they were the work of saints, not of authors looking to use the Bible as the basis for their fictional novel.  That's not to say that the books haven't converted anyone (I hear a lot of people turned to Christ after reading them), but I never got into Christian fiction in the first place.  Don't get me wrong, I love fiction, but I typically find that the characters in secular novels are much more appealing, and Christian non-fiction books are, by far, more valuable to me.  Still, the idea of a Rapture captured my imagination, and I once even wrote a letter for my non-Christian family and friends in case the Rapture came and carried me to Heaven.

Here's my problem with the Rapture, though, and, in particular, the Left Behind series.  First of all, Left Behind, while telling a thrilling tale, tends to border fear mongering.  There's a reason why the video game did so poorly.  In the game, if you can't get someone to convert, you simply machine gun them down!  No wonder Christianity has such a bad rap!  The books, while trying to paint a human face onto their non-believing characters, still convey the message that when it comes right down to it, God would very easily send them into an eternal fire.  I always felt so sorry for the people left behind.

Also, you talk about Nicolae being tossed aside and written off as evil and unable to find God.  I agree with you whole-heartedly.  Again, in one of the books, the authors attempted to put a human face on him as well, but this seemed to be a very superficial act of their's.  What were they trying to say?  That God would deliberatly twist a regular boy into a demon?  Nicolae, to me, was always a human, and I believe that all humans are capable of acting for either good or evil; but Nicolae seemed to lack free will - he was simply a pawn for evil.  He had a soul, but didn't have a snow ball's chance of bing saved, which is one of the most cruel forms of existence I can imagine.

Like you, I know someone who reminds me of Nicolae.  He's my brother, an American, and he only speaks two languages.  He seems to be like Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde.  Sometimes he's very mild, excited, or just plain witty and playful.  At the drop of a hat, he can turn violent, hurtful, and full of evil thoughts.  I often feel that one day he might do something drastic enough to wind up in jail, and I suspected spiritual warfare quite often.  I thought to myself, "What if he became the antiChrist?  Would God value his soul at all?"  Like you, that's mostly why I've taken such an interest in Universal Salvation.

[BenJasher]

reading this thread really was a blessing. I've often felt it might be the right thing to do- to try and go down into hell to help out after death. I've sometimes felt I might be mad, its so good to see there's others who think the same way!

Possibly their is a continual stream of Angels and concerned souls going down there to help the lost find their way to heaven?

1 Peter 4:6
for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are
dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the Spirit

I have taught, rather energetically and without much more than a vague notion, that we will be in the Lake of Fire for this purpose.

Loosely speaking, we are to be Kings and Priests unto God during the Millenium and the Age beyond; right? The overall duty of a Priest, in a nutshell, is to intercede, correct? Well then, why would God need intercessors, unless He is actively in the process of bringing all souls back to Him, and has made room for us to participate with Him in that process?

Also, in the 14th chapter of Rev it speaks about the Beast and the False Prophet being cast into the Lake of Fire where they will be tormented in "the presence of the Lamb and His holy angels." Why would the Lamb be in the Lake of Fire? Or the Angels for that matter? Would it not be for the same reason that we will be interceding for our loved ones at this same time period?

Lots of questions. Not much more than speculation. But this stuff makes me think that grandpa had hold of something when he talked like that. 

Good post!

[meerkat]

I have been having thoughts on something related to this - when Jesus supposedly descended to hell.



1Pe 3:18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:   1Pe 3:19      By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;   1Pe 3:20      Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.      1Pe 3:21      The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:      1Pe 3:22      Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.   

When Jesus started his ministry he quoted from Isaiah,,  Luk 4:17      And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,   Luk 4:18      The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,      Luk 4:19      To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.      Luk 4:20      And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.      Luk 4:21      And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

I believe that it is the people who are physically living but are dead in sin are the dead that are being preached to, I think that to be reborn spiritually is to be alive, before that you are dead in sin.

Through Adam we are all in bondage to sin (are we spirits in prison? - I think we are)  When it talks about the spirits in prison in 1 Peter 3:20 in Noahs day that is introduced because Paul is using the figure (type) of the flood and comparing it to the antitype Christ's death, burial and resurrection. 

I am having doubts that the spirits in verse 19 and 20 are the exact same individual spirits.  I think the proclamation (preaching) might be the act of being put to death in the flesh, and raised in the Spirit not a talking about the act.


 

 

 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi italy...

Meerkat seems to have the best grip in observing this idea... stating:

I have been having thoughts on something related to this - when Jesus supposedly descended to hell.

Supposedly is EXACTLY the truth of this... 

Meerkat then says this:

I believe that it is the people who are physically living but are dead in sin are the dead that are being preached to, I think that to be reborn spiritually is to be alive, before that you are dead in sin

Which is absolutely true... 

Well, my grandpa was really special to me. He was meek, never judging, never criticizing, always receiving others. And his message of salvation included everyone. (All grandpas are special, no?)

However, he also talked about something that I've never heard others talk about, even though it seems so 'in line' with the Spirit of Christ: he told me, "Brian, when I die, I hope to go to hell!"
"Really??" I asked.
"Yep. Because then I can preach to those in prison, as Jesus did! In fact, He said, where I go, ye will go after."
 
Wow! Preaching to spirits in prison! How WONDERFUL!!!!!! What a PRIVILEDGE!! (And didn't Moses intervene for Isreal?--'if you destroy them, then destroy me, too!!')

And Paul would have traded his salvation for condemnation for his neighbor's sake!

Bello, bello, bello! Hallelujah!!

Hope this is a blessing to someone!

Brian

It is a nice and beautiful wish your grandpa had brother Brian... and that wish was just simply, ...to be in every way, as was his Savior...    I commend him, and aspire to follow that same premise... He left to you a wonderful example of a heart for God... and desire to serve others... 

I firmly agree with meerkat, ...so sorry if this might serve to bust anyones longlasting orthodox balloon, ...but WHERE does it say that JESUS ...EVER...  "went to HELL"?

The mention of CHRIST going and preaching to those "in prison" (1 Pet 3:19) does not mention any of the words which are mistranslated "HELL"

ALL men are found to be in the "prison" of SIN... which, as meerkat suggests, is SPIRITUAL BONDAGE... 

PAUL even named this earthly experience to be taking place in "the body of THIS DEATH"... (Rom 7:24)  And it was FROM it, that DELIVERANCE was necessary...

The DEAD, hear not, see not, and are NOT "experiencing" anything (Ecc 9:5) ...this particular "Theological" idea (JESUS going to "hell") is founded in "orthodox" assumptions...

DEATH and the GRAVE (hades/sheol) are partnered to IMPRISON us from LIFE... and JESUS descended from HEAVEN to RELEASE each of us from that SPIRITUAL "prison"...

This is perfectly noted in: (Heb 2:9-10)

Until the LAST DAY... ALL shall find themselves to one degree or another, ...within that SPIRITUAL "PRISON" for the Apostle JOHN wrote to CONVERTED and SPIRITUAL Believers: (1 John 1:8-10) ...as did PAUL give his own PERSONAL admission of (ongoing involvement in) this state: (Rom 7:14-25)

peACe

...willieH