Author Topic: Gehenna = Lake of Fire?  (Read 2081 times)

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Jerm

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Gehenna = Lake of Fire?
« on: June 08, 2008, 10:21:03 PM »
Here's a quick question that I've been trying to figure out but haven't been able to come to a conclusion about:  Is the Gehenna punishment mentioned in the Gospels the same as the Lake of Fire described in Revelation, or are they two seperate things?

martincisneros

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Re: Gehenna = Lake of Fire?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2008, 10:35:23 PM »
Gehenna, as you examine it's usage passage by passage, seems more related to the doctrines you've believed and taught, or been taught and either the consequences of false doctrine or God's way of purging you from them.  Jesus constantly warned against the leaven of the Scribes and Pharisees.  Some would go so far as to say that the Gehenna judgment isn't mentioned outside of an immediate context with the people who were facing the fires of the 70AD judgment of Jerusalem when Jesus came in judgment in the same way as YHVH came in judgment many times in the Old Testament.

The Matthew 25 judgment of the sheep, goats, devil, and his angels; the fire of 1Corinthians 5; the Tartarus judgment of the angels; and the Lake of Fire judgment all seem to be works related judgment.  Although your works are usually a biproduct of your beliefs and doctrines, the Scriptures do seem to divide them even if just for illustration purposes so that we can understand what's going on and what's the crap hitting the fan over your paradigm and what's the crap hitting the fan over what you actually did.  I would think that any judgment related to the "thoughts and intents of the heart" would be related to the Gehenna judgment since that seems more paradigm related in the various passages that cover that.

I personally think that we all face all of this judgment (i.e. Gehenna and Lake of Fire, or Tartarus) either in this life or in life review mode at our confrontation with Jesus Christ at our deaths.  Although Revelation 20 might indicate either a soul sleep or oblivion/annihilation/destruction for some until the resurrection, if taken literally that death and hades had to fork over the dead that they were hanging on to.  But being the only passage that speaks in that language, it's understandable that many find it symbolic and simply believe that the text is indicating that God's judgment is thorough and will find you, no matter which rock or mountain you're hiding under.  Since there's not really a "hiding" from God as Revelation 6 would indicate, then the closest thing would be a hiding in our works and in our paradigms/doctrines.

Offline Pierac

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Re: Gehenna = Lake of Fire?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2008, 11:17:17 PM »
I think we can gather several meanings. Gehenna was of course a real place in Jerusalem, so when Jesus warned the people and Jewish leaders about it, there was some literal truth to it. I don't think it would not be out side the boundaries of reality to say that some of the people he was talking to ended up there during the destruction of  Jerusalem  in 70A.D. It's would have been a perfect place to get rid of the bodies of the thousands of slaughtered Jews. This could have been a literal and Spiritual teaching. I believe it is documented by Josephus that no Christians died during this destruction. Second we have Jesus speaking of the casting out of the son's of the kingdom. (Jews)

Mat 8:11  "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12  but the sons of
the kingdom
will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."


Rom 11:7  What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

Rom 11:17  But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18  do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19  You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

Jesus does speak of the lake of fire at the end of the Age.

Mat 25:41  "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

We know the Lake of Fire was prepared for the devil.  However, Jesus did not use the term Gehenna fire here in this verse, so they may have separate meanings. Like one being judgment of the flesh and the other judgment of the spirit? 

Paul





Offline studier

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Re: Gehenna = Lake of Fire?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2008, 04:06:16 AM »
Here's a quick question that I've been trying to figure out but haven't been able to come to a conclusion about:  Is the Gehenna punishment mentioned in the Gospels the same as the Lake of Fire described in Revelation, or are they two seperate things?

The JUDGMENT OF GEHENNA and the JUDGMENT OF THE LAKE OF FIRE are the same thing. These are usually shortened down to GEHENNA and LAKE OF FIRE. So when you read the JUDGMENTS, they are the same. That is why people get confused.

God never commanded, nor did it enter His mind to throw anyone to the fires of Gehenna and so at the same time, God never commanded, nor did it enter His in to throw anyone into the Lake of Fire. But yet, here they are being thrown in. Why is that? Because it is the JUDGMENT of these things, which is being commanded. What is that Judgment? It is that those who do such things, shall find themselves cut off. Is that not what the we see? The names that are not in the Lambs book of Life, are thrown into the Lake of Fire? Of course, there you will find the names of 'murderers', 'liars' etc. none of these names, have any place in Life. This is also the same judgment given to Israel, for doing such things; they were cut of from the blessings until the Gentiles were grafted in.

The problem, is the literal interpretations of such events, is supposed to bring fear to those who do not know the Truth. The literal understanding of the message, brings terror to those who hear it. That is because they have yet been perfected by love, which means they no not God and that is why they are afraid.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2008, 04:08:11 AM by SOtW »

friarted

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Re: Gehenna = Lake of Fire?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2008, 02:13:21 PM »
I think that while there was a literal Gehenna for criminals corpses & garbage & such, and that Jerusalem was turned into a Gehenna at 70 A.D., that Gehenna was also Jesus's term for the same future final judgment in GodFire which Paul calls aionian destruction & John calls the Lake of Fire.

Paul

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Re: Gehenna = Lake of Fire?
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2008, 05:54:10 PM »
Gehenna really confuses me. I don't understand how something can be both a garbage dump and a spiritual, purging fire.

Chris

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Re: Gehenna = Lake of Fire?
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2008, 06:31:45 PM »
Gehenna really confuses me. I don't understand how something can be both a garbage dump and a spiritual, purging fire.
Hi Paul,

I sort of look at it this way. That the "purification" is the result of having those things that are "not pure" burned away so that all that is left is that which is pure.

Although in Numbers, even that which doesn't abide the fire is to be purified with the water of separation.

Num 31:23  Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.

That might be an interesting study. Not something that I have looked at before.  :bigGrin:

Offline studier

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Re: Gehenna = Lake of Fire?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2008, 06:57:48 PM »
Gehenna really confuses me. I don't understand how something can be both a garbage dump and a spiritual, purging fire.

Hello Paul. This is the a common human fallacy in understanding. Let me give a test:

Nuclear Power => a) Green Renewable Safe Energy, or b) Polluting Dangerous Technology
Hydrogen Power => a) Green Renewable Safe Energy, or b) Highly Combustive Dangerous Technology

If you say b, you have been deceived by fear. Nuclear Power is the best source of renewable energy and scientifically the best and most viable energy source we have. It is very safe compared to other fuels and energy for the amount of energy it produces. There is in fact more people who die from carbon dioxide poisoning and cancers caused by burning carbon fuel, than there is people who are killed by a Nuclear Power plant, but things like 'nuclear weapons' and 'Chernoble" and "Three Mile Island", has made Nuclear Power a Polluting Dangerous Technology. Hydrogen Power has a byproduct of water! Yet, everyone still remembers the Hindenburg disaster in which 40 people died as their blimp blew up; yet there are more people who die in plane crashes and car accidents using normal carbon based fuels, than any person who ever died prior to the Hinderburg disaster and that many bombs are Hydrogen bombs.

So with this understanding, was Gehenna a garbage dump, or was it a purging fire? It was neither.

Let me re-explain Gehenna. Gehenna is a Judgment. The judgment came about because of Gehenna. It is literally called: THE JUDGMENT OF GEHENNA. Not that anyone is thrown into it, or purified there. It was a beautiful valley until later polluted and defiled by one of Israel's Kings as a reminder of the Judgment which God declared against Israel, Judah, Jerusalem and the Temple from that place.  It is not a garbage dump, it was made into one. It is not a purging fire, that is hasty generalization trying to justify what the 'garbage dump' signifies.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 04:58:01 AM by SOtW »

Offline willieH

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Re: Gehenna = Lake of Fire?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2008, 09:13:11 PM »
willieH: Hi Paul :hithere:

Gehenna really confuses me. I don't understand how something can be both a garbage dump and a spiritual, purging fire.

Everyone is giving you their take Paul, here is my :2c:

(Rom 9:17-23)

17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, even for this same PURPOSE have I RAISED thee UP, that I might show My power IN THEE, and that My name might be DECLARED throughout ALL the EARTH    [God's PURPOSE was IN part raising UP Pharaoh that through that raising, His name would be DECLARED throughout ALL the ...EARTH=man]

18  Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He WILL He hardeneth   [we have no choice as to whether God shall put us in a position of mercy (in JUDGMENT) in this lifetime, or hardening in this lifetime (in JUDGMENT), it is ALL, ...according to HIS WILL]

19  Thou wilt say then unto me, why doth He yet find fault?   For WHO hath resisted His WILL? [This is a statement, that regardless of HOW we, as men observe GOD, it is HIS WILL that is being done in ALL instances, including finding fault=JUDGMENT]

20  Nay, but O man, WHO art THOU that repliest against GOD?  Shall the thing FORMED say to Him that formed it,  Why has Thou made Me thus? [Now we get into explanations, the created thing has no right to question its creator for the parameters of its existence]

21  Hath not THE POTTER power OVER the CLAY, of the SAME LUMP to make One VESSEL unto HONOR, and another unto DISHONOR?  [Vessel of DISHONOR=garbage, profits nothing, UNLIKE Himself is FLESH---Vessel of HONOR is His SON=glory, priceless, LIKE Himself is SPIRIT]

22  What if GOD, willing to show His wrath and to make His power KNOWN, endured with LONGSUFFERING, the VESSELS of wrath fitted to DESTRUCTION  [This verse is speaking of the FLESH, which from their beginning are FITTED or made to be DESTROYED as GARBAGE in DEATH=for it is worthless and defiled and that He is MAKING KNOWN, His power via DESTRUCTION, as well as MAKING KNOWN His power---------]

23  And that He might make KNOWN the riches of His GLORY on the VESSELS of MERCY which He had AFORE PREPARED unto GLORY [More of the explanation, that GOD is making KNOWN the RICHES of His GLORY via this whole process.  We would not KNOW Good OR Evil, without this, and therefore His GLORY which is encased in GOOD, would not be KNOWN]

GEHENNA, and the LAKE of FIRE are NOW... NOW is the GARBAGE being (spiritually) "burned" (as the FLESH decays and finds its destruction in EACH of us.) ...VIA living THIS life in the FLESH, and He is making KNOWN His POWER both in DESTROYING the flesh and SAVING the SPIRIT, ...and thereby revealing His FULL GLORY in ETERNITY = ALL in ALL)

JESUS said the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD is NOW... this LIFE takes place NOW, ...not then... (John 12:31)

THIS Life, is the FIRE in which CHRIST's "GOLD" was TRIED Paul... and we are counseled to "buy" or obtain that GOLD by Him, that our SHAME will be covered when ALL is made KNOWN. (Rev 3:18)

Whether one sees ...or not, ...it is ALL according to HIS WILL...  :dontknow:

...peacE
...willieH  :cloud9: