Future and Church Prophecy

[CHB]

Hey CHB,

I explained what I know to be by definition spiritual. What is spiritual by definition in your mind?

Because I get conflicting understandings from your statements.

Won't the Spirit be more manifested in those who have the Spirit poured out on them, than they did before it was poured out on them?

I would have to say I am more spiritual now than I use to be.

Won't the Spirit be more revealed in those who have the spirit poured out on them? So those who haven't had the spirit poured out on them do manifest the spirit?

You are more spiritual, what was less spiritual?

I honestly don't understand your word usage, please define it for me.

Dallas

I just thought of something Dallas. I said in another post "No but wouldn't the flesh become more spiritual"? I just realized how stupid that sounds. The flesh cannot become spiritual, it profits nothing. The only thing about me that is spiritual is Christ living in me.  (1Cor. 12:11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man serverally as he will. It says that Christ wasn't  given the Spirit by MEASURE. Does this mean that some have more of the Holy Spirit than others? Are there some who don't have any of the Holy Spirit at all?  Spiritual to me means that Christ Spirit or Holy Spirit is living and working in me.

CHB

[jabcat]

(Me here C, 'scuse me for buttin' in)  

I personally believe none of us "has the Holy Spirit" indwelling us until we're born from above, thus the spiritual new birth.  Whether one is "more filled than another" after that, is a very interesting question.  There are many beliefs about that.  Southern Baptists for example, believe one has "all the Holy Spirit they're ever going to get" upon the new birth.  Many Pentecostals and Charismatics believe there is a coming of the Holy Spirit at new birth, then another filling - and then some believe the filling waxes, wanes, comes and goes.

Again, good question C.  (I'll get back out now  )

[Nathan]

I sure missed these kinds of thoughts and threads.  Great discussion you are having in this.  Hey, Jabcat, I got a thought for ya . . . seems to me there's a passage that states our flesh is actually a veil that keeps us from seeing truth.  What if God's spirit is in every being, it's just not revealed, or manifesting due to the fact that they're embracing the veil.  But when we turn to Christ, the veil is then removed, leaving the light of truth to then illuminate truth into others as in ourselves. 

It's there, it's just "beneath" the veil of flesh and through salvation, that spiritual alignment is then "resurrected" (born again experience) from being beneath the flesh to returning to the throne in our lives where it was once originally established in Adam.

Another picture of being filled with the spirit is rather than looking at it like a jar being "filled" with water, instead we are as sails of a ship being filled with the currents of the wind.  The "filling" of the sails is not the result of spirit pouring "in" us, but instead it's a result of the spirit (wind) "moving" through us.  Being filled with the spirit in Scripture usually preludes to the individual being "led" to be someplace, do or say something.  It was what led them into action, just as when wind fills the sails of a boat to move the boat over the depths of the darkness of the waters beneath, so moves the spirit in our lives through the vast unknown areas just beyond our line of vision.

[jabcat]

It's an interesting thought Nathan, and I don't know for sure - but I do believe the Holy Spirit comes individually when Jesus draws (drags) unto Himself.  I'll need to track down some more scripture on it.  But in Ephesians 5:18 Paul says "be filled with the Spirit".  I haven't spend much time on this, but I found this comment for consideration:  "Within the Greek language is an indicative mode, which is the statement of fact, and an imperative mode, which states a command. Ephesians 5:18 is an emphatic imperative, and is literally translated, "Be being kept filled with the Spirit." It is a command that includes the idea of conscious continuation."

A topic worth more thought and consideration.

[eaglesway]

I like Nathan's analogy. When sailing, the wind may be blowing, but if the sail is not turned in the right direction and held in the proper attitude, the wind will not fill the sails. Hence, pauls exhortation to keep being filled with the spirit and to have in us the same attitude that was in Christ Jesus, i.e. use the benefits of sonship for the purpose of serving.

I personally believe the spirit of God is available to everyone, at all times, as the rain that falls on the just and the unjust, for as Pauls said in Acts 17 , "for in Him we live and move and have our being". But I believe there is a measure of the indwelling spirit that is available only to believers

On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
(Joh 7:37-39)

But even tho it says the Spirit had not yet been given, Peter says of the prophets " Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand" and "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
(Act 2:32-33)

The this, which was seen and heard was something special.

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
(Act 19:1-6)

There were disciples who had believed, but had as yet not heard of the Holy Spirit, Paul referred to their baptism, I believe going back to the message of Peter on the day of Pentecost. I don't believe speaking in tongues is the exclusive evidence of the baptism, or coming upon, or filling, or overflow of the Spirit- but I do think there is evidence. It is the manifestation of the supernatural anointing of Christ- which is primarily righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, and the "spirit of unity in the bond of peace"- but should also include the gifts of the Spirit distributed "severally as He wills" throughout the various members of the Body of Christ.

But we are to be renewed in the spirit of our minds and strengthened with might by His Spirit in our inner man. That is a daily renewal that has, IMO, struggles and crests and ups and downs- so we are to bear one another burdens, pray for one another etc.

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
(2Co 4:7-10)

[Dallas]

Spiritual to me means that Christ Spirit or Holy Spirit is living and working in me.

CHB

Now I don't mean to argue you, but...when the writers of the bible penned spiritual did they have that definition? My point is, when you look up spiritual in the dictionary it doesn't say that. That is Christianes and distorts the literary meaning.

The bible talks about men who don't have God's spirit working in them as such but are reffered to as spiritual men. Shouldn't we, to keep the meaning of the literature, read words with word meaning?

New agers don't believe in God, yet they are refered to as spiritual people as is the proper word usage.

Dallas

[Dallas]

I personally believe none of us "has the Holy Spirit" indwelling us until we're born from above

I would agree with this to some extent, as CHB quoted from Acts 2, "God poured forth His spirit on all mankind."

All people have the Holy Ghost poured out on them for all of creation has it, that does lead them to knowing God in all fullness. However there is a need for the awakening or as you say "born again" experience.

The only way they have an awakening as Jesus said and Paul, "Awake sleep, arise unto rightouesness" is when each in thier own time comes. But until then they are not held back from the cross for God has made all in Christ and walking with them into all eternity when it is best to bring them to the fullness.

So IMO all are filled with the spirit, but not all have been awaken unto righteousness.

As far as to Paul saying "be ye filled with the Holy Spirit" Paul was talking about the things of the spirit, be ever thoughtful of peace joy and righteousness. Not a magical touch or feeling or Godly possession, but a real life earthly cleansed concience and walk.

[reFORMer]

It says that Christ wasn't  given the Spirit by MEASURE. Does this mean that some have more of the Holy Spirit than others? Are there some who don't have any of the Holy Spirit at all?  Spiritual to me means that Christ Spirit or Holy Spirit is living and working in me.

CHB

Actually, John 3:34 has that meaning added by the translators of the KJV. This is indicated by the use of italics.  "...for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Him."  This is how the Concordant Literal puts it:  "For He Whom God commissions is speaking God's declarations, for God is not giving the spirit by measure."

Someone once said, "Where ever there is any of God, there is all of God."  One either has the Holy Spirit or does not.  This is why the request of Elisha to Elijah, desiring of him a double portion of his Spirit, Elijah said was a very hard thing he had asked.  Commentators debate whether "the double" was like one views a double of one's self in a mirror, or was it twice as much he wanted.  The fact all of God is inherent in His giving of His Spirit to us resolves this difficulty.  There were twice as many "miracles" or spiritual prodigies recorded performed by Elisha as Elijah.

I have conceived of being "filled" with the Spirit as referring to both the intensity of His radiation as well as the extent of our reception.  It also seems He emanates in differing aspects of being.

[jabcat]

Spiritual to me means that Christ Spirit or Holy Spirit is living and working in me.

CHB

Now I don't mean to argue you, but...when the writers of the bible penned spiritual did they have that definition? My point is, when you look up spiritual in the dictionary it doesn't say that. That is Christianes and distorts the literary meaning.

The bible talks about men who don't have God's spirit working in them as such but are reffered to as spiritual men. Shouldn't we, to keep the meaning of the literature, read words with word meaning?

New agers don't believe in God, yet they are refered to as spiritual people as is the proper word usage.

Dallas

I believe there's more than one spirit, as in, not everything that has to do with "a spirit" is of the Holy Spirit.  "test the spirits to see if they be of God..."

[reFORMer]

Something very edifying I recommend:  go through 1st and 2nd Corinthians and mark every occurrence of every form of the word "spirit," "spirit's, spirits, spiritual, etc."  (I did that with a blue pencil.)  Examine the context each time and what "spirit, spiritual" means becomes better understood.  The Corinthians were rather immature and un-spiritual, as evidenced by the first letter to them.  God was correcting that deficiency with His communication to them.  2nd Corinthians was said by Watchman Nee to be perhaps the most spiritual book in the New Testament if not in the entire Bible.

[eaglesway]

Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
(Act 2:33)

`I indeed do baptize you with water to reformation, but he who after me is coming is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to bear the sandals, he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire, whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor, and will gather his wheat to the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.'(Mat 3:11-12)


and others mocking said, --`They are full of sweet wine;'
and Peter having stood up with the eleven, lifted up his voice and declared to them, `Men, Jews! and all those dwelling in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and harken to my sayings, for these are not drunken, as ye take it up, for it is the third hour of the day. `But this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel: And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; and also upon My men-servants, and upon My maid-servants, in those days, I will pour out of My Spirit, and they shall prophesy;
(Act 2:13-18)



They, therefore, indeed, having come together, were questioning him, saying, `Lord, dost thou at this time restore the reign to Israel?' and he said unto them, `It is not yours to know times or seasons that the Father did appoint in His own authority; but ye shall receive power at the coming of the Holy Spirit upon you, and ye shall be witnesses to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and unto the end of the earth.'
(Act 1:6-8)

I believe Jesus had the Holy Spirit within Him even before birth(Lk 1:41), but there was clearly an anointing of the Spirit that "came upon" Him after His baptism by John. It was an anointing for ministry. I believe the "coming upon"
that the 120 experienced was this same anointing for ministry that Jesus had received at His baptism, to be multiplied in the Body at Pentecost. "You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be witnesses unto me...." Jesus apparently (according to Peter's declaration in the first presentation of the gospel (Ac 2:33) received the Holy Spirit in a substantially greater way after His ascension for the purpose of distributing (being the fountain head of the living waters) to believers- for the same anointing unto ministry. The result of that anointing was effective priesthood, as they were "all as one soul" and the grace of God and the word of the Lord grew and multiplied and the Lord added to the church daily such as were chosen for deliverance.

Jesus Himself taught that the Holy Spirit would come unto men in a way that had not yet occurred

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
(Joh 16:7-15)

 For me, it isn't important to define all the "measures" in which the Holy Spirit has been in the world and involved in the dealings of God with men- IMO it really doesnt matter that much, it is what it is. I do think it is important that believers understand that the "coming upon" of the Spirit for the anointing to minister as sons of God is still
available and is in fact, the imperative cure for most of what ails the Body of Christ today. If Jesus needed it in order to fulfill His course, we need it as well, in order to be effective witnesses unto Him in this present evil age. I don't think it is a one time experience, but is renewed through prayer and hearing with faith. I don't think it is exclusive to any sign or gift. I think it must be maintained corporately in some measure. "The Spirit and the Bride say Come." This saying was fulfilled by the outpouring of the Spirit upon the Bride of Christ in Acts- and they came as the Lord added daily. I think it is fulfilled in the same way today. "Today if you hear His voice." As with all things spiritual- it isn't the definition but the real experience walked out with God. Being defines itself in manifestation of truth.

"And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus." And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness. And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them.
(Act 4:29-32)

A Song of Ascents, of David.

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
It is like the precious oil upon the head,
Coming down upon the beard, Even Aaron's beard,
Coming down upon the edge of his robes.
It is like the dew of Hermon
Coming down upon the mountains of Zion;
For there the LORD commanded the blessing--life forever.
(Psa 133:1-3)

[Nathan]

This is in the Message Translation
2 Thessalonians 2
6-8You'll also remember that I told you the Anarchist is being held back until just the right time. That doesn't mean that the spirit of anarchy is not now at work. It is, secretly and underground. But the time will come when the Anarchist will no longer be held back, but will be let loose. But don't worry. The Master Jesus will be right on his heels and blow him away. The Master appears and—puff!—the Anarchist is out of there.

Hebrews 10
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. From a previous thread about being perfect
 
 . . . 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,  20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

The spirit is life.  If I'm not alive, there is no spirit in me.  His spirit brings life.  We as spiritual beings can be distracted with the aspect of a spirit realm that is not pursuing the nature of Christ.  We can go to extremes on anything and everything.  But as long as I'm living and breathing, I see that "His" spirit is what's allowing life to manifest in me.

The one thing that can restrain the fulness of that life is . . .me.  My thinking mind can veil the completeness of the Spirit manifesting in me.  My carnal nature is the veil that covers.  Not from a protective perspective, but from a blind one.  The river that flows is what happens when the alignment within us once again returns to it's original position.  The baptism is a form of death, burial and resurrection.  Be it water or spirit, something dies and resurrects.  Being baptized in the spirit is experiencing carnal death just as water baptism is experiencing carnal death. 

However, just as there are different levels of ministry in the tabernacle leading into the holy of holies, there are also different levels of maturity and even different levels of dying that allows the spirit to flow from a trickle to a flood, it's all based on where our humility level is in our relationship with him.

[Molly]

This is in the Message Translation
2 Thessalonians 2
6-8You'll also remember that I told you the Anarchist is being held back until just the right time. That doesn't mean that the spirit of anarchy is not now at work. It is, secretly and underground. But the time will come when the Anarchist will no longer be held back, but will be let loose. But don't worry. The Master Jesus will be right on his heels and blow him away. The Master appears and—puff!—the Anarchist is out of there.

That's wild.

He calls the 'mystery of iniquity' the 'Anarchist.'

It's long been known that those who promote anarchy are really trying to destroy a society so that they can take it over and rule it with an iron fist.  [see the french revolution],


Very interesting.


"anarchy"

a state of society without government or law.
2.
political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy.
3.
a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.
4.
confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.

[rosered]

Something very edifying I recommend:  go through 1st and 2nd Corinthians and mark every occurrence of every form of the word "spirit," "spirit's, spirits, spiritual, etc."  (I did that with a blue pencil.)  Examine the context each time and what "spirit, spiritual" means becomes better understood.  The Corinthians were rather immature and un-spiritual, as evidenced by the first letter to them.  God was correcting that deficiency with His communication to them.  2nd Corinthians was said by Watchman Nee to be perhaps the most spiritual book in the New Testament if not in the entire Bible.

 Thanks James  
  you are right  1  and   2 Cor  does explain the mystery of godliness  
 
with Christ and the Church / His Body  
1Ti 3:16   And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.  
 
  
 
 

[CHB]

Spiritual to me means that Christ Spirit or Holy Spirit is living and working in me.

CHB

Now I don't mean to argue you, but...when the writers of the bible penned spiritual did they have that definition? My point is, when you look up spiritual in the dictionary it doesn't say that. That is Christianes and distorts the literary meaning.

The bible talks about men who don't have God's spirit working in them as such but are reffered to as spiritual men. Shouldn't we, to keep the meaning of the literature, read words with word meaning?

New agers don't believe in God, yet they are refered to as spiritual people as is the proper word usage.

Dallas

I believe there's more than one spirit, as in, not everything that has to do with "a spirit" is of the Holy Spirit.  "test the spirits to see if they be of God..."

Amen jabcat!!! I was just thinking this while reading Dallas post. There are different spirits. There is a spirit of man and a spirit of beast. The Holy Spirit. "The spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Eph. 2:2). Sounds like this one is the works of the flesh. We have seducing spirits.  (Heb. 12:9) But God is the Father of all spirits.

CHB

[Dallas]

In literature and our word usage there are two uses for the word spirit.

Spirit- synonamous with Ghost

Spirit- the things of

Example; Christmas time...many people get caught up in the giving and recieving and decorating and such, the things of Christmas, the spirit of Christmas. That's not a Ghost of Christmas driving it, but people getting caught up in those things.

Just as the spirit of adultery...going out to a bar without your wife and hitting on women, looking at pornography and hiding it from your spouse, lusting after people will lead one to cheating on thier spouse...spirit of adultery, the things of not a ghost.

The spirit of the children of disobedience- lawlessness, defaming God, self-rightouesness...the things of not a ghost.

God the Father of all spirits- The father of all Ghosts



Context again is the key to understanding literature. Without this foundation we would be lost, thrown around by every movement of the sea...