Future and Church Prophecy

[Beloved Servant]

Thanks Nathan, I'm as anxious as you are for His fulness.
Dallas, Sonship has been my hope for more than half my life.
The thing is, it's evident that there will be no denying it.
Everyone will know!

[eaglesway]

Now I say, as long as the heir is a child(nepios- infant, immature person), he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father.
(Gal 4:1-2)

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
(Heb 5:12-14)

Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
(1Co 2:6-10)

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
(1Co 3:1-3)

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children(teknon-from teko, bear in travail) of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
(Rom 8:16-17)

And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
(Luk 14:27)

Everyone will be reconciled to God, but not everyone is reconciled to God now. Not everyone who believes in God and/or the Bible is reconciled to God. The Pharisees believed in God and the Scriptures but they murdered Christ. Of those who are reconciled to God now, some are building wood, hay and stubble and will be saved, but as through flames- losing their reward. The reward I am speaking of is the sonship inheritance, for overcomers only, and only God knows who they are. Everyone who is reconciled to God now is a child of God but many of the children are no different than slaves because they are immature and are not trusted by the Father with the keys to the kingdom- no more than I would hand my car keys to my grandson who is 5. He might kill someone or hurt himself. No one who opposes the gospel is a son of God- they are sons of disobedience. Those who do not oppose the gospel but  are immature, stuck in the natural man, babes- are unable to walk in the adoption they are called to. Many are called, few are chosen. When someone is chosen, it is evident, because they have demonstrated maturity so the Father gives them the keys. The ultimate evidence of the sonship of God will be the redemption of our bodies spoken of in Romans 8.

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
(Php 3:10-15)

Too bad no one ever taught Paul the four spiritual laws, he wouldn' t have had to worry about all this other stuff- and neither would we ;o)

[jabcat]

Amen John.  I believe we are to be proclaiming Jesus as Savior so people can believe and be reconciled.  Gary has a good article on TM about the problems/dangers of an "all already saved" doctrine, i.e., no need to believe unto salvation/get saved.  "How shall they believe in Whom they have not heard?"

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. I Tim. 2:4

that we will be rescued from perverse and evil men; for not all have faith. 2 Thes. 3:2


Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
 
 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

[eaglesway]

Yes, and amen. The Lord does not only call us to deliverance from the penalties of sin, he calls us to suffer the loss of all things in the pursuit of discipleship and sonship so that we can participate in the divine nature and the ministry of reconciliation and restoration. The idea that all of that is automatic for everyone who believes is not scriptural. Hence the exhortations to run with patience the race set before us, to press on toward the mark of the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Jesus was the pattern son. In bringing many sons to glory the captain of our salvation has called us to suffer with Him that we may be glorified with Him. For this reason Paul testified that he mortified the members of his body so that after having preached to others he might not become a castaway. Many are called, but few are chosen. 

[Beloved Servant]

Matthew 16:24

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Mark 8:34

Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."

Luke 9:23

Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."


We pray Lord that THY WILL be done in our earth.

[CHB]

What do you think it means to deny oneself?

Why is it that we must suffer?

Just some questions I was thinking on while reading the posts, was wondering what everyones thoughts were on this? Maybe I should start a new thread, jabcat or is this one ok?

CHB

[Nathan]

For me, denying my "self" is having my spirit exercise it's authority over my carnality.  My "self" is my carnal nature.

The "suffering" part is our hell experience.  It's the purging and purifying of our carnality being consumed.  It's my "self" coming under submission to my Spirit so that life can abound.  Self says it wants life, that's why self wants me to do whatever my "self" wants to do.  But self does not lead me into life, only death, decay and bondage. 

[jabcat]

What do you think it means to deny oneself?

Why is it that we must suffer?

Just some questions I was thinking on while reading the posts, was wondering what everyones thoughts were on this? Maybe I should start a new thread, jabcat or is this one ok?

CHB

Hi C.  I think either way's OK, as the OP was a very open, multi-faceted one.  If we get a long line of posts going strictly related to this one subject, we could always split it off to its own thread.  I'll watch it.  Feel free to start another thread if you want it to be more noticeable and solely focused on your question.  Or let me know, and I can split it and rename starting a few posts up.  Thanks, James.

[jabcat]

I believe in every word/precept written in the scriptures - if they're properly translated, Spirit-revealed and Spirit-enabled.  I just know in my lifetime I've distorted many things, leaned to my own understanding, and tried to use my own strength, goodness, and efforts to "be a good Christian".  Make no mistake - I believe in obedience, holiness, and "...the completion of your charge is for love that is based on a clean heart, a good conscience, and a faith that is without pretense" I Timothy 1:5.       However, I've also found, painfully so, that my own efforts have failed miserably.  My own righteousness is as filthy rags.  I cannot either save myself, or keep myself saved.  Personally, I HAVE TO LOOK TO HIM - DWELL IN HIM- GET LOST IN HIS STRENGTH - because,

'I am not able of myself to do anything...  John 5:30

The LORD is my strength .. Ps. 28:7

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.  Ephesians 2:10

[Beloved Servant]

Self does want to hold on to life, amen Nathan, which is why Adam was red/ruddy in the face; life is in the blood.
But Jesus glorified in Revelation had white hair, head and garments, for His blood/self was poured out for all creation.
His Spirit is the perfume in the alabaster vessel that was shattered for all mankind.


2 CORINTHIANS 4
7 Now we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the transcendence of the power may be of God and not of us.
8 In everything, being afflicted, but not distressed; perplexed, but not despairing;
9 persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not perishing --
10 always carrying about in the body the deadening of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body.
11 For we who are living are ever being given up to death because of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
12 So that death is operating in us, yet life in you.


Our daily death brings life to others.


allelluiah

[Dallas]

What do you think it means to deny oneself?

Why is it that we must suffer?

Just some questions I was thinking on while reading the posts, was wondering what everyones thoughts were on this? Maybe I should start a new thread, jabcat or is this one ok?

CHB

Denying oneself... this all has to do with becoming included into the promises of God by oneself's own doing. Remember, Paul was preaching a Jewish fulfillment to the gentiles and Paul's foundation was based on those precepts, Jesus was speaking directly to Jews under the law whom were trying to fulfill the law by their own doing.

To deny oneself is to stop trying to get the promises of God by ones own ability and acknowledge their own inclusion by Jesus' doing. Just as Paul's denying of himself in Philipians;

Philippians 3:1 "Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you.

   2Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;

   3for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

   4although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:

   5circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;

   6as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

   7But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.

   8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,

   9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ,

[CHB]

Jesus was speaking directly to Jews under the law whom were trying to fulfill the law by their own doing.

To deny oneself is to stop trying to get the promises of God by ones own ability and acknowledge their own inclusion by Jesus' doing. Just as Paul's denying of himself in Philipians;

 

CHB

[Nathan]

No confidence in the flesh!  Amen to that!!  Everyone has credentials on one level or another but until we bring them down to the dung level, we do more harm than good.  This is why I do get excited when I see people stepping away from proof and into faith.  Faith is where the deliverance awaits us.  

"If I can't see it, how can I operate in it?"  I see in us there are two distinct trees.  One produces thoughts and fruits of life, the other, doubt and death.  We have conversations going on inside our heads all the time.  Much of the time, it's debates and justifications as to why we act the way we do.  But for me, the spirit has no need or desire to debate anything.  Spirit simply flows.  It's either flowing in us from the Father, or out of us into others.  But there's no debating, simply giving and receiving.

The debating comes from the intellect of my mind.  Is this bad?  Only when it becomes my identity.  Surely we all know by now when God begins revealing the nature of Christ to us, it stretches our understanding to it's limits and beyond.  Questions are necessary.  Explanations are necessary.  The problems arise when my head begins to defend what it thinks is truth against the message that appears to be in contrast.  I judge what is right or wrong.  I stand against another who approaches with a different message.  


Truth is, my flesh hates it when it loses it's confidence in something.  It "wants" to obtain all the knowledge it can so it can become confident.  Yet that's not how the kingdom principles operate.  They don't build or establish confidence in ourselves.  I think part of my problems with my faith in the past is, I assume the health of my relationship with the Father is built upon my faith in him.  When the reality is, it's built upon his faith in me.  

All I see is all my limitations of how far I can go and what all I can do.  I mean, let's be real here . . there's only so much this flesh can accomplish.  But what I'm missing is the fact that God's power is endless.  His faith in me is not something that he sees me doing in my own power.  He sees me doing his will . . .in HIS power.

Walking in his power manifests through humility, meekness, gentleness and no confidence in my own flesh.  It's not by might or power . . . it's not by my mind of reason or my hands of labor.  But my faith is believing what I do, what I say, what I hear, what I touch and what I see, it all comes from his faith in me.

[Molly]

30 Even youths grow tired and weary,
       and young men stumble and fall;

 31 but those who hope in the LORD
       will renew their strength.
       They will soar on wings like eagles;
       they will run and not grow weary,
       they will walk and not be faint.

--Isa 40

[Beloved Servant]

Amen Molly.
For we are but youths in the nature of love.
Today we love, tomorrow we criticize the same.
Remember the first time you were in love with someone?
When all you could do was think about them day and night!
The Lord never forgets His first Love, For it is us in His Image!

[reFORMer]

  "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ." (1Co 12:12)  Conceive of two or more together with the ascended head present.  Now think of the veil on this many membered Christ being lifted as what to expect when He "comes to be present" (ie, "parousia") in like manner as He left. Coming forth out of glory clouds He will appear unto those He has chosen, just as before.  In the period of a generation He will bring out a people under His own authority who will be taught of Him.  Worldwide, they will act like and talk like Jesus (Lk 6:40.)  He will "seize them as His own possession" (ie, "harpazo" 1 Th 4:17.)  So we are coming unto the promised perfect man, defined as "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." (Ep 4:13)  "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them . . . This is the first resurrection." (Rv 20:4-5)  They will become the determining factor for what occurs among the sons of men.

[jabcat]

Received this from Thomas Kissinger.  Fits our discussion;

2nd Timothy 2:20-21 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.  21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet (profitable) for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

These two short verses give us very specific details pertaining to the sanctification process that we are called into as believers. The goal of this process in addition to becoming profitable for the Master's use is stated in verse nineteen, which states... 19Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his. And, let every one that names the name of Christ DEPART FROM INIQUITY. The word "iniquity" used here comes from the Greek word "adikia" and refers to: a deed violating law and justice, act of unrighteousness. This is the whole point of our sanctification, whereby we are purged from our "lawless ways", which could also be referred to as the works of the flesh. The Scriptures tell us that the works of the flesh do violate the Word (Law) of God. Those who recognize and submit to the dealings of God are those who will be changed into a vessel of honor and then become profitable for the Master's use. This is what the manifestation of the sons of God is all about.

God is calling, choosing, and qualifying vessels of honor in this age, purging them from iniquity in order that they might be manifested at the first resurrection to be the overcomers who shall lead the nations, the church in general, and the unbelievers to Christ, so that every knee will bow to Jesus and every tongue will confess His precious name. Please understand, though, this has only been made possible because of the blood of the cross of Christ. Those who recognize they are called into this leadership role will give all the glory to God and are certainly not on an ego trip, thinking they are better than others. Neither do they see themselves as elite, but rather, they are so humbled that God would shed His grace and mercy on them in order that they might understand the hope of their calling {the high calling - the out-resurrection from among the dead (exanastasis) or first resurrection}.

God purges us through our fiery trials when we have faith in the midst of our trials. Remember what the apostle Paul said about tribulations? Romans 5:3-5... 3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation works patience;  4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:  5And hope makes not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.  Paul could say this because he understood that our "light affliction" that we experience in this age is nothing in comparison to the glory that shall be revealed in us in the ages to come as the manifested sons of God.

There is no need to hide from God as though we are afraid of Him. He knows we have sin in our members. It is called mortality, and he is the One Who subjected us to it through the fall of Adam. It is all part of His master plan to gather together in one all things in Christ, making our latter end greater than our beginning. We must understand that the fire of God is His Word (Law). The very purpose of this is to burn up our wood, hay, and stubble (our carnality). The beautiful part of the fire of God is that it does purge and that it is corrective.

Our God is able to raise up all flesh, even those that erred in spirit, bringing them to a proper understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine (accept instruction). Once again, this is God's purpose for all, but it starts first with those who purge themselves and are qualified to be profitable for the Master's use. These vessels of honor are the first part of God's great harvest of souls - The Barley Harvest. They are those that shall play a part in bringing in the Wheat and Grape Harvest (the church in general and the unbelievers). This desperately needs to be taught and understood in the reconciliation movement. This is HOW God is going to save ALL through the blood of the cross of Christ. He is going to do it through His vessels of honor with Jesus Christ as the Head and Captain of this company.

If we do not understand sanctification and HOW God is going to save ALL, then we will tend to gravitate toward Unitarianism and New Age beliefs. Ask God to give you a revelation of "the mystery of iniquity" that Paul spoke of in 2nd Thessalonians chapter two. We are told to depart from iniquity all through the Scriptures. It behooves us to understand what iniquity is, and how we are able to depart from it by the grace and mercy of God. Remember...it is God Who is doing the work in us, but we are called upon to fight the good fight of faith as we recognize and submit to the purging of God.

Hallelujah!  Thomas--Sincerely,Thomas Kissinger        Hearing The Truth Of God    (A Website Dedicated To Promoting Truth)       www.hearingthetruthofgod.com

[chuckt]

Our daily death brings life to others.

PERFECT!

[Universalist Catholic]

I wonder sometimes about the "Itching of Ears" and the great falling away.  For 500 years of Church history, Universalism was the primary thought in the Christedom in the East and West.  Only the school of Africa had a belief in everlasting torment.(Home of the beloved Augustine and Tertullian).  In the 500s, the teaching on the Apocatastasis was condemned, and both the Eastern and Western Churches accepted ET.  Im not sure about the Nestorians, or if they are around anymore, or let alone believe in the Apokatastasis anymore.

[CHB]

Wow!!! You guys sure have some good words and thoughts in your posts. I have really enjoyed reading what you all had to say.  

The original post mentions "future". What do you all think about what lies ahead? We have had a lot of earthquakes this year and other things happening. Do you think it will get worse or better and do you think we are in the last days?

CHB

[chuckt]

Wow!!! You guys sure have some good words and thoughts in your posts. I have really enjoyed reading what you all had to say.  

The original post mentions "future". What do you all think about what lies ahead? We have had a lot of earthquakes this year and other things happening. Do you think it will get worse or better and do you think we are in the last days?

CHB

i no longer worry, whatever happens God will deliver us, if there is fire, we will be like the three in the furnace, worry not, what ever happens i think it wont be whats expected.

we have been in the last days for 2000 yrs AKA 2 days since the crucufixion 

Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof.

God bless
chuckt

[Nathan]

The last days . . .for me are not about days in general but specific days of the week of creation.  It was on the 4th day that the sun, moon and stars were created.  It was on the 4th day (4,000 year) that Christ was born.  Jesus stated "tear this temple down and in three days I'll raise it up".  John explained that he was referring to his body.  ("What?  Know ye not that "you/we" are a temple of the Holy Ghost?"   Paul) 

In Genesis when the days were being established, I love this part . . ."blessings" didn't begin to manifest until "after" the 4th day.  It was on the 5th day that God created living creaters in the waters and "blessed" them.(Gen. 1:22)  On the 6th day, God created animals and man and "blessed" them. (Gen. 1:28) On the 7th day, God created it to honor his rest and "blessed" it. (Gen. 2:3)

It was the beginning of the 5th day when the spirit poured out upon all flesh.  The last days began on the 5th day.  The number of grace.  The day we are in is the dawning of the 7th day, the last day of the last days.  We are becoming the Sabbath.

[chuckt]

It was the beginning of the 5th day when the spirit poured out upon all flesh.  The last days began on the 5th day.  The number of grace.  The day we are in is the dawning of the 7th day, the last day of the last days.  We are becoming the Sabbath.

good stuff,  5+2= 7 

[CHB]

The last days . . .for me are not about days in general but specific days of the week of creation.  It was on the 4th day that the sun, moon and stars were created.  It was on the 4th day (4,000 year) that Christ was born.  Jesus stated "tear this temple down and in three days I'll raise it up".  John explained that he was referring to his body.  ("What?  Know ye not that "you/we" are a temple of the Holy Ghost?"   Paul) 

In Genesis when the days were being established, I love this part . . ."blessings" didn't begin to manifest until "after" the 4th day.  It was on the 5th day that God created living creaters in the waters and "blessed" them.(Gen. 1:22)  On the 6th day, God created animals and man and "blessed" them. (Gen. 1:28) On the 7th day, God created it to honor his rest and "blessed" it. (Gen. 2:3)

It was the beginning of the 5th day when the spirit poured out upon all flesh.  The last days began on the 5th day.  The number of grace.  The day we are in is the dawning of the 7th day, the last day of the last days.  We are becoming the Sabbath.

Hi Nathan,

This was very interesting. I have heard some say that we are in the third day. I remember seeing a Church that said "the Third Day Church". Don't know what they believed but wondered about this third day. Do you think Jesus was referring to three thousand years from when he was crucified, when he talked about the third day? I guess you could say we are in the third day since Christ was crucified and also the 7th day?

Do you think we are in the day of rest?

CHB

[Nathan]

You do realize the fact that you asked this question is evidence that God is revealing something to you already.  That's what revelation does.  It prompts you to ask the questions that turn the tumblers with which the door of Truth opens to you.  That's how Peter received his first experience in having the nature of Jesus revealed to him.  Jesus prompted him with a question. 

And you are seeing it exactly as I see it.  The third day and the 7th day are the same day.  The third day comes through resurrection, the 7th day comes through rest.  Both are the same and both require the same standards.  And that is, in order to see it, natural reasoning can not be applied.  That's where the personal interpretation muddies it up. 

That was the "pattern" God established with the Israelites with the gathering of the manna.  Jesus is the manna  John 6:
48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die

For 5 days, the rule was that they were to go out every morning (resurrection again) and gather just enough that would provide them for a days supply.  But on the sixth day, the day of "man" they were to gather twice as much because twice as much knowledge of the Lord would be provided.

Daniel 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

It's all in preparation for the coming of the Sabbath. 

Hebrews 8
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

 11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

When the Sabbath comes . . .or when we enter into it, which ever comes first . . . the rules we followed before-hand will no longer apply.  That's why I think now some struggle with trying to learn the "spiritual" side of things.  We're using natural logic traits while we're attempting to enter into spirit-realm truths.  It does not come by way of flesh and blood, but through the reveling of the Father.  Spiritual revelation is walking "in" the Sabbath and if we continue applying rules of labor to Sabbath day operations, we'll feel like we're banging our heads against a brick wall.  Entering into the Sabbath is part of the maturity experience everyone goes through at one time or another in their lives. 

But yeah, the "day" of resurrection (third day) is the same "day" as the Sabbath Rest (seventh day).  And that's where God is leading us into and revealing to our natures all at the same time.