Author Topic: Future and Church Prophecy  (Read 6567 times)

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Offline Universalist Catholic

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Future and Church Prophecy
« on: April 12, 2010, 05:34:01 AM »
The great falling away, the itching of Ears, truth getting revealed.  Many claim that we are in the Great Falling away due to the rise of more New age Philosophy, and backing away from traditional Christian theology.  I think the Great falling away and the itching of ears occurred along time ago.  How about the Whore of Babylon? The Antichrist? Identification of the rise of the Eternal Torment Churches, the future of Universalist Christianity?  Any thoughts?

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2010, 05:56:53 AM »

Again, I honesty tell you the truth, KingdomBibleStudies.org.
Asking questions is a leap of faith.
Receiving the answer is the Grace of God.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2010, 09:43:50 PM »
Truth becomes known, when deception falls away; self-induced blindness.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which says, By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive: For the people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.  (Matthew 13:14-15)

The people draw close to me with their mouths, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. In vain they do worship, teaching the doctrines and commandments of men. (Matthew 15:8-9)

Colossians 2

For I want you to know how great a struggle I have on your behalf and for those who are at Tentmaker, and for all those who have not personally seen my face, that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
 
I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument. For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.

Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
 
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
 
When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath day – things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
 
If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,  "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"
(which all refer to things destined to perish with use) – in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement, and severe treatment of the body; but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.


The presence of a veil, makes a wedding seem like a funeral.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 10:21:04 PM by peacemaker »

Offline CHB

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2010, 02:42:28 AM »
I think the falling away already occured. You could say it started back in 70AD and is still going on.

CHB


Offline Nathan

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2010, 04:32:53 AM »
I wholly agree.  I think you'll find the literal fulfillment in writings such as Josephus who was documenting the events leading up to, through, and after 70 A.D. with the slaughtering of a nation as well as it's belief system. 

For me, those claiming the new age is the evidence are the same who have ears but can not hear.  But I digress . . . Scripture is always abused by others (I was just leaning toward that just now) by assuming scripture is written about others.  It's not.  It's written "to" me, "for" me and "in" me.  The falling away in me is my carnal thinking mind which then exposes the light of the Spirit in me. 

The  Whore of Babylon? The Antichrist? They are one and the same, they are all different perspectives of the operation of the mind of man . .within every one of us.  Identification of the rise of the Eternal Torment Churches, the future of Universalist Christianity.  Interesting choice of words because that's just what religion does.  It emphasizes the identity to a doctrine or belief rather than submitting to the identity of Christ in us, the hope of glory.   

I think that's the reason why Israel lost their identity as a nation.  Because they embraced their identity based on their religiou efforts to maintain their righteousness.  But Jesus came with a new identity of grace and mercy, love and rest.  And they rejected all of it.  As a result of rejecting his identity, they lost theirs.  And for the record.  I don't believe the temple is going to ever be rebuilt.  I don't believe the animal sacrifices are ever going to start up again . . .everything the religious believers are longing for to manifest on their terms is going to greatly decieve them in to waiting for something to come in this realm that has already happened not only in this realm, but also in the spirit realm. 

Until the veil is removed from their minds, there will be no maturity in Christ.  Instead, just a lot of people growing old in their churches.  Until the veil is removed from my own mind, my heart can not respond to the call of the deep either.  It's all about yielding my mind to his order of life.  It's not about hanging on and digging in.  It's about letting go and not worrying about the landing . . .faith is knowing the Father will never drop you once you take flight.

gky

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2010, 07:37:28 PM »
Thank you Universal Catholic for yet another great question.
Thank you Nathan for bringing up something I've been musing over lately.

Thinking about the many traditional churches that speculate on the Abomination of Desolation, etc, it has come to my mind repeatedly that the traditional church model (in the system I've spent 20 years in) plays out something like this:
Bear with me for my oversimplistic wording:

1. God starts a "new work"
2. God "calls a man" to become a pastor
3. A fellowship begins in a home, rented building, etc, everyone gets excited and
       buys into the "vision"
4. That fellowship builds in "numbers"
5. During the initial years, that pastor seems genuine, loving, etc and seems to
       have all the answers to everyone's needs
6. That pastor gains favor and in some cases, all out loyalty from the fellowship
7. God is perceived as endorsing the work, opening doors, annointing, etc
8. The pastor and fellowship begin the process of attaining a building
9. The building is built, the church is established and has gained it's own
       sovreignty (at least from a civil/legal perspective)
10 The pastor has a dedication of the building
11 Suddenly, the pastor becomes an unaccountable ruler of that church/fellowship
12 Suddenly, that pastor begins to rule with an iron fist
13 Those in the fellowship who see this and question that pastor are now
        marginalized, ostracized and eventually cast out as being divisive, or
        a malcontent
14 In every case I've seen, the church continues to grow in population, finances
        and prominence/fame


Doens't this sound like a mini-rebuilt temple, mini-antichrist, mini-model of the Abomination of Desolation?

Maybe I'm going to extremes?

Syndicated

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2010, 07:56:54 PM »

The  Whore of Babylon? The Antichrist? They are one and the same, they are all different perspectives of the operation of the mind of man . .within every one of us.  


The 'Whore of Babylon' is referring to Jerusalem and the Isrealites falling away from God.  Moses is even warned about it when he was about to die... how they will play the harlot in the covenant... Deut 31:16.  In fact, God refers to them as 'playing the harlot' all throughout the old testament.  In Rev 17 & 18 it is summed up that because of it Jerusalem is destroyed, how the Pharasees took over the Levitical priesthood, and how it became tainted and corrupt because of it.  'Babylon the Great' (Rev 17:5) is Jerusalem and the 'Whore' is the corrupted priesthood.  In Rev 17:6 the blood of the saints refers to Matt 23:34"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,

   35so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

   36"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.


It's not something mystical that we can take on ourselves.



The 'Antichrist' is a term used for those who opposed Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

And

1 John 2:22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

If you are not FOR Christ you are AGAISNT Christ,... you are 'Anti Christ'.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 10:42:59 PM by Syndicated »

Offline Nathan

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2010, 08:36:11 PM »
I'm not denying your rendition, I do believe there is a literal take on it.  I agree that God saw Israel as a whoring nation as she was antichrist by nature.  Having said that, I also see the mind of natural man as a whoring mind in the same sense.  We become intimate with beliefs that bring us most pleasure rather than with Truth.  It's what religion does.  It implicates nakedness and then establishes and enforces boundaries and rules for it's followers to live within it's standards of it's image of God.

Zeek

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2010, 08:47:56 PM »
If we "spiritualize" everything, then at what point does the literal not matter.  In other words, literal Jesus death, burial and resurrection doesn't matter, it's the "spiritual death burial and resurrection" in our minds that matters, etc.  


then you've essentially become "buddhist" in that it's the death of the "ego" and the rising of the "true self" (the mind of Christ, or Christ consciousness).  


i don't see alot of difference in the teachings of "spiritual universalism" and "new age teaching" of the release of our true nature, the return to who we are. 

Syndicated

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2010, 10:18:48 PM »
I need to comment on something that just caught my eye and realization:

 
Quote
I'm not denying your rendition, I do believe there is a literal take on it

Of course there is a literal take on it... IT IS HISTORY!  IT ALL ACTUALLY HAPPENED!  To deny the actuality of everything would be like denying that Hitler built Auschwitz, Dachau, Buchenwald and the like to do horrible things to people.


Quote
Scripture is always abused by others by assuming scripture is written about others.  It's not.  It's written "to" me, "for" me and "in" me.

The whole bible is a historical documentation of events that happened to the Jewish people of 2000+ years ago, not of something that was written "to/for/in" Nathan of Tentmaker Forums 2010.  When Jesus says many times that something will happen "in this generation" it does not mean that it will happen 2000 years from when He said it, it was pertenant to whom He was speaking to.. hence it IS written about others.

Does this mean that it's not relevant to you now?  That you can't learn anything from it?  No, it does not.  People write many, many, many books on history to help us learn from them.  The bible is no different... it is to teach of the strugles of the Jewish people through the covenant, to teach you that God loves the world He created and the people in it so much that He would send his Son to be the ONLY sacrifice we would EVER NEED to be with HIM... that His FINAL sacrifice covers everyone, not just the Jewish people anymore.  It is a book of prophecy from God's chosen people and how the prophecies have been fulfilled throughout history.

To change the meaning and purpose of the bible to suit what someone wants it to say for their own being is complete mystic practice and is nothing short of blasphemy.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2010, 10:30:14 PM »
You're misunderstanding what I was stating there.  I was not meaning that the literal events and passages were written for . . .as you put it . . ."Nathan of Tentmaker forums in 2010"  I'm saying that it's for the individual who's reading it to apply it to themselves rather than use it to rule over another.

Offline Universalist Catholic

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2010, 11:46:43 PM »
What really interests me is that many prophecies describe

Quote
2 Timothy 3:1-9
1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
 6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

It sounds like all the rotten fruits from the everlasting Hellfire teaching. It seemed to have arisen as soon as the Church of Rome became the "official and true Church" Proud, boastful, abusive popes and monarchs in league with eachother.  Sure not the little Church it was in the early days.  Lovers of money, why not start making tithing threats.  I dont think I have to further explain? 

Universalist thought was present when Christianity was a small sect.  It survived in Neostorian Christianity, despite Romes anathema.  It had reappeared in Europe in Anabaptist Circles, and got sent over to the USA.  And its around today with more than plenty of good resources on the internet. 

Plus belief in Christian Universalism is a little Flock, and highly uncommon and heavily persecuted by traditionalist Christians. 

The only form of Christianity that seems to follow biblical principles without having to twist the scriptures.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 07:41:15 AM by reFORMer »

Offline Nathan

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2010, 12:34:55 AM »
I've been on both sides of the fence.  I taught the book of revelation when I was in mainline church thinking, and I've taught it from kingdom principles.  And I've been guilty on both sides claiming that others who embrace a different approach twist Scriptures to make it fit.  I'm not so sure that's entirely true.

Granted, I'm sure there are still those who do manipulate verses to say things "they" want to express for their own purposes.  But for the most part, I think many believe differently for one, because that's what they were taught and they really didn't have any reason to think the "man of God" telling them these things would be outright lying to them. 

And two, I think a lot of it has to do with perspectives.  Knowledge always influences the interpretation of something.  The intention for religious colleges is based on the idea, the more knowledge you obtain in the Scriptures, the more accuate your renderings of them will be.  So they teach you doctrine that is already biased because they're not going to teach you Scripture that is contrary to what they fundamentally believe as a whole. 

If I believe in hell, I'm not going to see, let alone emphasize passages that point a different direction.  If someone approaches me and tells me I'm wrong about what I beleive and what they believe is right, it's going to automatically put me on the defense.  Which then makes it nearly impossible for anything new and enlightening to get through at all.  It's not that I twisted it, it's just that this was where my level of understanding is due to my relationship with God is actually with an image of God . .the church's image of God rather than the true nature of God.

I've always felt that salvation was an unconditional gift.  But just last week, I was in deep conversation (some say it was more of an argument but that's just them) with a close relative on this very thing and they were adamant that everything God gives is conditional.  Salvation is yours . . .under the condition you consciously choose to accept it.  If not . . .to hell with you.  And I think that's just so sad that someone would be so adamant about something so intimate and yet not see the depths of who God is.

I don't think they are "purposefully" twisting the Scriptures.  They're accusing me of doing so.  But I don't think they're really doing it on purpose.  I think I'd use a different word than twisting.  I think I'd go with "filtering".  Jesus said his words are spirit.  But when we embrace our individual reasoning when we read or hear his words, our minds actually filter the message and we miss the meat because our minds are not capable of comprehending spiritual meat, it only recognizes an image of it and if something is said or read that our minds can't grasp, it chokes the filter and we consciously reject the truth and call it heresy.

At least that's how I'm seeing it today.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2010, 12:35:36 AM »
The Lord always has a "remnant."
It's all that's required — a still small voice.

Offline Universalist Catholic

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2010, 01:17:23 AM »
Quote
But when we embrace our individual reasoning when we read or hear his words, our minds actually filter the message and we miss the meat because our minds are not capable of comprehending spiritual meat, it only recognizes an image of it and if something is said or read that our minds can't grasp, it chokes the filter and we consciously reject the truth and call it heresy.

In the book of Isaiah invites us to reason together.

Offline Dallas

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2010, 01:26:35 AM »
Quote
The Lord always has a "remnant."
It's all that's required — a still small voice
.

That's just not true anymore. The remnant was those under the law whom believed in the faithfulness of God, there is no longer a remaining group that will survive the judgement. There is one large group, the included into the work of the cross group, the body of Christ in whom Jesus is head.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2010, 02:11:40 AM »
Amen, but compared to the seething masses of the sea  — it is but a remnant in the world that hear His voice.

Offline Dallas

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2010, 02:31:07 AM »
Quote
it is but a remnant in the world that hear His voice

It is a remaining in the world that hear His voice? Sure there seems to be a small body whom hear, but it's not a small body that remains. Also the body is quite significant, add up the Mormons, the Jews, The Catholics, The Protestants, The Jehovah Witnesses, The Muslims....(etc)

It's something like 80% of thew world believes in the God of the Bible in one form or another.

Universalists are just one of the many...and they like you claim to be the right one.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2010, 02:40:36 AM »

Creation still waits for the manifestation of the Sons of God.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2010, 02:41:30 AM »
Jesus, Savior

Offline Dallas

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2010, 02:55:38 AM »
Quote
Creation still waits for the manifestation of the Sons of God.

Are you a Son of God?  I am because of what Jesus did.  I have been restored, made complete as a Son of God.

Creation no longer waits for the revealing of the Sons of God, that theology and rhetoric is entrenched in many flawed and unbiblical reasonings.

Was Paul a Son of God?  Was Peter and John?  What about your children... what about the Son of God?  Has He been revealed, has Jesus the Son of God been made manifest to the world, to creation as King?

Christ sits as King revealed as King to all of creation, to you, to me and all of eternity.  I understand the idea of manifestation doctorine, again I know you don't hold to hell doctrine.  My question why do you hold to their doctrine?

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2010, 03:02:25 AM »

When the Sons are revealed, the whole world will be thrown off its horse like Saul was on his way to Damascus.
If you think this is "IT," Dallas, maybe the Lord should have prepared the way for you!

Offline Nathan

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2010, 03:07:07 AM »
Hmmm . .. for me, even though all has been done , there are still things that are incomplete.  It's not so much about the end as it is the now.  If the kingdom is fully complete in the now, then where is the manifestation of that?  I truly believe he's complete in me.  but we are all still in the process of running the race are we not?  Is my flesh perfected?  Has my body come into it's new form?  My heart has, my mind "is" but my body . . .is this realm still not governed by death and decay?

I think it's in the process of changing, but I'm not so sure it's fully complete as of yet.  It's not so much a doctrine for me as it is just where I'm at in God's house.  Still growing.  Still open for more truth to continue to be planted in me so that more reproduction will occur in me and those around me.

Offline Dallas

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2010, 03:11:20 AM »

When the Sons are revealed, the whole world will be thrown off its horse like Saul was on his way to Damascus.
If you think this is "IT," Dallas, maybe the Lord should have prepared the way for you!


No Problem Beloved Servant - non-Son of God.

Offline Dallas

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Re: Future and Church Prophecy
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2010, 03:13:28 AM »
Quote
Hmmm . .. for me, even though all has been done , there are still things that are incomplete.

Hmmm... that's exactly what I think, except for the differences!