Author Topic: Where/who was Jesus before  (Read 3202 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2010, 09:15:23 AM »
I did not say Jesus was not flesh, he was, I just don't think it came from an earthly parent. He was born of a woman, he did have human fallible flesh. I don't remember reading that Jesus RESISTED sin. He was put in, or put on a body of sinful flesh.
There was much sin at that time. So also much sin to resist. The devil tempted Jesus by offerering Him kingdoms. Jesus refused. That was resisting sin.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2010, 03:49:26 PM »

I'm with CHB,

Flesh is sinful.
        Or
Flesh is full of sin.


Offline Cardinal

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2010, 05:03:08 PM »
hi   CHB
You may be correct, but I do not see how He was the son of man or what His victory was if He did not have human fallible flesh as we do- and conquered it, thereby condemning sin in the flesh. The idea that He would have sin on Him if He was born with Adams natural human constitution may not be logically automatic, the possibility remains He resisted sin and overcame it. That He was born of a woman, born "under law" also tends to lead me to believe that He fulfilled the law through obedience, not by inherent sinlessness. Mary, His mother, was certainly a sinner. IMO He chose sinlessness- while being presented with other options by the world, His flesh, and the devil- everyday. How could He be tempted, "like as we are", if He had no flesh to conquer? How could He sympathize with our weakness by experience- "a high priest.....taken from among men"? It is written in Adam all men die, I am not sure it is written, "In Adam all men sin"- I'll have to look at that. I think we choose to sin with our father Adam, but Jesus, having God as His Father, chose not to sin, even though, having Eve as His mother, His flesh was as subject to temptation, and free to sin, as yours or mine. Peace, John

 :cloud9: I've seen the same.......our new birth with the same Spirit as He, puts us on the same "level" in the sense that now WE have a heavenly Father just like He, and have the ability to deny the old "father" Adam. This is what He meant by, "call no MAN your father". This way, we too are born of a woman AND born of the Spirit. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline CHB

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2010, 08:07:38 PM »
I did not say Jesus was not flesh, he was, I just don't think it came from an earthly parent. He was born of a woman, he did have human fallible flesh. I don't remember reading that Jesus RESISTED sin. He was put in, or put on a body of sinful flesh.
There was much sin at that time. So also much sin to resist. The devil tempted Jesus by offerering Him kingdoms. Jesus refused. That was resisting sin.

I don't see that as resisting sin. Was it a sin for Satan to offer Jesus the kingdoms of the world? I don't see that there would be a need for him to resist sin. Nothing would be sin for him.

CHB

Offline CHB

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2010, 08:42:28 PM »
Any thoughts on Jesus being "perfected through suffering"?  (Hebrews 2:10, 5:9, 7:28)

Hi jabcat,

This is just the way I see this at this time.

(Heb. 2:10) Last part of verse. "To make the captain OF THEIR SALVATION PERFECT THROUGH SUFFERINGS". 

It says "THEIR salvation was made perfect through his sufferings". It doesn't say Jesus was made perfect through his sufferings.


(Heb. 5:8) "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered".

Jesus learned obedience by suffering. To me this is saying that Jesus was obedient as far as laying down his life for us, it didn't have any thing to do with resisting sin.

(Heb. 5:9) And being MADE PERFECT, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

This verse tells me that Jesus was MADE PERFECT from the start, he didn't have to become perfect, he WAS PERFECT. 

My understanding of this is. Jesus was a perfect being without sin and one who would not and did not sin. He took on the human flesh which we all have which was sin. It wasn't what he did that made him sinless but who he was.

CHB



Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2010, 10:17:49 PM »


No scriptures indicate that He had been disobedient in the past and hence had to be made perfect.
Who could atone for His sins?

Offline jabcat

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2010, 12:05:10 AM »
I am certainly NOT adamant that Jesus was in any way imperfect.  Yet there seems to have been some sort of process.  For consideration and discussion;

Even though He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things that He suffered.  Then when He had been made perfect, He became the Causer of Salvation in the Last Age for all those who are continually obeying Him.. and He was introduced by God as a Chief Priest according to the order of Melchizedek.  We have much to say about this, but it is difficult to interpret it for you since you have become apathetic in hearing.  For even when by this time you ought to be a teacher, you are continually needing someone to teach you the beginning elements of God's Words once again...For whoever is receiving their share in milk, is untested in the Word that tells about things that are right... Hebrews 5:8-13
 

Offline jabcat

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2010, 12:12:44 AM »
I'll look for some various commentary on this, including in the Concordant Literal Commentary.  That's online by the way;

http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC00.htm

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2010, 12:17:12 AM »
Without Your Spirit Lord,
we are nothing but dust.
Please raise your Sons Lord,
with the wisdom, knowledge and understanding that brings us to the unity of the Faith. Amen.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 12:24:44 AM by Beloved Servant »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2010, 12:18:33 AM »

James, the CLV still leaves it open.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2010, 12:20:26 AM »

The YLT:
verse 9:
and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,

Offline jabcat

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2010, 12:40:53 AM »
Yeah, this appears to be the closest Knoch comes to "touching" it;

Not by personal ambition, but by the call of God which involved such suffering as is most repugnant to flesh and blood, did Christ obtain His priesthood. God did save Him out of death, but not from the "cup".

Offline CHB

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2010, 12:54:01 AM »
Quote from: Beloved Servant
No scriptures indicate that He had been disobedient in the past and hence had to be made perfect.
Who could atone for His sins?
Quote

Hi BS,

He was made perfect in the flesh, this is what I was saying. Not that he had been disobedient. When the Holy Spirit implanted Jesus in the womb of Mary he was made perfect in sinful flesh.

Jesus broke the Sabbath law many times, Wouldn't that have been accounted against him as sin if he could sin? After all, sin is the transgression of law. Just my personal opinion but I think Jesus was tempted, tried, learned things but did not need to resist sin.

In (John 6:38) Jesus said "For I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me".

CHB

Offline Nathan

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2010, 01:48:32 AM »
I've been trying to remember where this verse was all day . . .finally got it.

2 Corinthians 5:21
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Not only was Christ tempted by sin, he became it.  Ever wonder why Jesus cried out "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?"  You think it was because Jesus didn't know?  Or that he shouted it out for our benefit?  If he took upon sin, he also experienced "separation".  That's what sin does, it separates us from the presence of God.  I'm thinking for that moment, Jesus experienced the separation and his soul immediately cried out in great angst a question only a carnal mind would cry out. 

Jesus became mortal  so that he could conquor mortality.  he became mortal to bring us immortality

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2010, 02:00:02 AM »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2010, 02:12:06 AM »
His name, since birth, Emmanuel, God with us.
He knew no sin.
He cried:
My Family! My Family!
Why hast thou forsaken me?
He was crying out to US!
Not the Father.
allelluiah

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2010, 02:27:42 AM »

The blood had to pour out, it could not be contained, if it were only He would be valid.
Adam is ruddy, Christ, white as snow!

Same for us.
We must become His Life poured out.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2010, 03:27:43 AM »


Jesus became mortal so that he could conquer mortality. He became mortal to bring us immortality

Yes Brother Nathan.
Yes.
He glorified the flesh!
The ramifications are endless as we become like Him.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2010, 06:41:15 AM »
IMO, Jesus being "made perfect" through the things that He suffered has to do with completion. Jesus definitely matured. He never sinned or erred or trespassed but He matured.

Rom 8:3  For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness(homoioma) of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

A lot of things happened on the cross, but chiefest of all I think, is the payment of the debt owed by all, as Jesus experienced separation for the first time- having never sinned, He was never separated until He became sin on our behalf and experienced death- once, for all. My mind reels at the awesome glory of his grace.

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2010, 01:30:28 PM »


Hi BS,

He was made perfect in the flesh, this is what I was saying. Not that he had been disobedient. When the Holy Spirit implanted Jesus in the womb of Mary he was made perfect in sinful flesh.

Jesus broke the Sabbath law many times, Wouldn't that have been accounted against him as sin if he could sin? After all, sin is the transgression of law. Just my personal opinion but I think Jesus was tempted, tried, learned things but did not need to resist sin.

In (John 6:38) Jesus said "For I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me".

CHB

CHB,
That is my point also!
I am in agreement with you all the way.
Re-read my statement:

No scriptures indicate that He had been disobedient in the past and hence (after His physical birth) had to be made perfect.
Who could atone for His sins?

He is the spotless Lamb, sent from heaven, slain from before the foundations.





.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 01:41:34 PM by Beloved Servant »

Offline Nathan

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2010, 06:00:36 PM »
His name, since birth, Emmanuel, God with us.
He knew no sin.
He cried:
My Family! My Family!
Why hast thou forsaken me?
He was crying out to US!
Not the Father.
allelluiah

My family, my family . . .Really?  I've never heard this one before.  That would change everything.

Offline CHB

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2010, 06:04:28 PM »
His name, since birth, Emmanuel, God with us.
He knew no sin.
He cried:
My Family! My Family!
Why hast thou forsaken me?
He was crying out to US!
Not the Father.
allelluiah

I believe this also. I don't think Jesus said "my God my God why hast thou forsaken me". Jesus said many times that the Father was always with him and that he would never leave him. Why would he leave him at his worst hour?  Jesus knew from the beginning what would happen to him so I don't see why Jesus would ask the Father why he was forsaken him.

CHB

Offline Nathan

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2010, 07:21:21 PM »
It's another one of those that you really don't think much about because you think you already understand what's going on with it so you never question the validity of the translations.

Would he then have been talking to his natural family?  Or the disciples?  Or those that once followed him and now were nowhere to be seen?  Or  . . .would the answer to all that simply be, "yes"?

Offline Nathan

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2010, 07:26:46 PM »
Got some questions on this . . .starting a new thread.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2010, 09:22:52 PM »
 :cloud9: If I'm not mistaken, it was "Elohim, Elohim, why hast thou forsaken me?" Elohim is plural, and since Father joined Himself to Israel at Sinai as a wedding making them "one"......Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor