Author Topic: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross  (Read 3956 times)

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Tim B

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Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« on: August 29, 2009, 09:06:32 AM »
How do you reconcile

2 Corinthians 5:19 (New International Version)

19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

And

Colossians 1:20 (New International Version)

20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.



with the idea that Jesus said to forgive that your Father may forgive you (otherwise you will not be forgiven)? How can He not hold their sins against mankind and yet not forgive those who do not forgive or those that blasphemy the Holy Spirit (even though it's just for the age)? How is that God being at peace with mankind or not counting their sins against them?

This has been bothering me and any insight would be appreciated. Thanks guys!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 09:14:04 AM by Tim B »

Offline Seth

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2009, 09:13:00 AM »
How do you reconcile

2 Corinthians 5:19 (New International Version)

19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

with the idea that Jesus said to forgive that your Father may forgive you (otherwise you will not be forgiven)? How can He not hold their sins against mankind and yet not forgive those who do not forgive or those that blasphemy the Holy Spirit (even though it's just for the age)? How is that God being at peace with mankind?

This has been bothering me and any insight would be appreciated. Thanks guys!

Well the phrase "hold against" is a good place to start. Why do we think of God's judgments on people to be a manifestation of "holding against" rather than the biggest favor he could do for us?

Hebrews 12:5-8
And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

      " My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
      Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
       For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
      And scourges every son whom He receives."


If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.


I see the chastening of the Lord to be one of the most loving things he can do and not as an expression of him "holding sin AGAINST us." God held our sins against us by the law BECAUSE the law did not bring cleansing unto righteousness. That is so important to understand. The law actually held us in bondage TO sin and then continued to attack our conscience. It was a dire situation. The law counted our sins against us, which God is no longer doing. Rather now, His judgments are FOR us not against us. The cross is the judgment of the world which reveals that the judgment of the world is to put to death the flesh within us as we see Christ's flesh was put to death. That is why Peter said "For the time is come for judgment to begin with the house of God."

What I wish people would understand is that God's mercy is expressed THROUGH chastening because it delivers us from sin. As it says in another part of Hebrews, God's chastening leads to the peaceable fruit of righteousness. How merciful is that? VERY! God does not express mercy by allowing us to sit and stew in our sin all the while considering us "positionally" righteous. He would be leaving us as slaves and that is NOT merciful at all.

Think about this: when it came time for God to deliver the Jews from Egypt, did actually deliver them, or did he say "you are all positionally delivered" then leave it at that?



« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 09:26:35 AM by Seth »

Offline Redlettervoice

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2009, 07:24:19 PM »
....

A couple of thoughts. 

Jesus said, "which is easier, to say, thy sins are forgiven,
or to take up thy bed and walk?" 

This statement of His has made me think about what you said too.

Seth, I noticed YOU said:
The cross is the judgment of the world which reveals that the judgment of the world is to put to death the flesh within us as we see Christ's flesh was put to death.

Jesus was "made" a curse for us.

Taking your statment that you spoke above, would you say that
Jesus "allowed" the judgement "of the world" to crucify him???
since he laid down his life "willingly."

But He rose with a GREATER AUTHORITY that the one that crucified
him, and it is written "if they had known who it was they were
crucifying, they would NOT have crucified the Lord of Glory!

Taking your statment again, concerning the judgement of the "world"
is to PUT to death the flesh.........

would you say that the JUDGEMENT OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
IS TO 'BRING LIFE?"


Is that what "judgement unto life" means?'

So HIS Judgement "follows" the crucifixion?


Offline Seth

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2009, 07:31:10 PM »
....

A couple of thoughts. 

Jesus said, "which is easier, to say, thy sins are forgiven,
or to take up thy bed and walk?" 

This statement of His has made me think about what you said too.

Seth, I noticed YOU said:
The cross is the judgment of the world which reveals that the judgment of the world is to put to death the flesh within us as we see Christ's flesh was put to death.

Jesus was "made" a curse for us.

Taking your statment that you spoke above, would you say that
Jesus "allowed" the judgement "of the world" to crucify him???
since he laid down his life "willingly."

But He rose with a GREATER AUTHORITY that the one that crucified
him, and it is written "if they had known who it was they were
crucifying, they would NOT have crucified the Lord of Glory!

Taking your statment again, concerning the judgement of the "world"
is to PUT to death the flesh.........

would you say that the JUDGEMENT OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
IS TO 'BRING LIFE?"


Is that what "judgement unto life" means?'

So HIS Judgement "follows" the crucifixion?



To the bolded part, YES! Exactly. The cross really shows how the flesh and Spirit are opposing forces. In the flesh, Christ's death was an unmitigated murder. He have his life willingly, yet it was still a murder because it was slaying of a man who did nothing wrong.

Jesus said that the judgment of the world was the death that he would die.

SO, what Romans 6 reveals is that Christ's death is the likeness of the demise of our old carnal mindset, our old man, the flesh. And his resurrection is the likeness of our walk in newness of life. The cross represents the internal judgment of God against our sinful flesh so that we may walk new. And it was by that literal death two thousand years ago, that made Christ's resurrection possible, to be a life giving spirit. This is what being baptized into his death means. The life that comes with that death is simultaneous. In other words, to die to the flesh IS to live.

By being baptized into Christ's death we are baptized into the death of our flesh-mindedness by the resurrected life, the Spiritual baptism. The resurrected life brings death to death, and life to the one once bound to death. That is the judgment of the world. And that is why God still chastises people.




« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 07:51:29 PM by Seth »

aspiring son

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2009, 08:04:57 PM »
....

A couple of thoughts. 

Jesus said, "which is easier, to say, thy sins are forgiven,
or to take up thy bed and walk?" 

This statement of His has made me think about what you said too.

Seth, I noticed YOU said:
The cross is the judgment of the world which reveals that the judgment of the world is to put to death the flesh within us as we see Christ's flesh was put to death.

Jesus was "made" a curse for us.

Taking your statment that you spoke above, would you say that
Jesus "allowed" the judgement "of the world" to crucify him???
since he laid down his life "willingly."

But He rose with a GREATER AUTHORITY that the one that crucified
him, and it is written "if they had known who it was they were
crucifying, they would NOT have crucified the Lord of Glory!

Taking your statment again, concerning the judgement of the "world"
is to PUT to death the flesh.........

would you say that the JUDGEMENT OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
IS TO 'BRING LIFE?"


Is that what "judgement unto life" means?'

So HIS Judgement "follows" the crucifixion?



To the bolded part, YES! Exactly. The cross really shows how the flesh and Spirit are opposing forces. In the flesh, Christ's death was an unmitigated murder. He have his life willingly, yet it was still a murder because it was slaying of a man who did nothing wrong.

Jesus said that the judgment of the world was the death that he would die.

SO, what Romans 6 reveals is that Christ's death is the likeness of the demise of our old carnal mindset, our old man, the flesh. And his resurrection is the likeness of our walk in newness of life. The cross represents the internal judgment of God against our sinful flesh so that we may walk new. And it was by that literal death two thousand years ago, that made Christ's resurrection possible, to be a life giving spirit. This is what being baptized into his death means. The life that comes with that death is simultaneous. In other words, to die to the flesh IS to live.

By being baptized into Christ's death we are baptized into the death of our flesh-mindedness by the resurrected life, the Spiritual baptism. The resurrected life brings death to death, and life to the one once bound to death. That is the judgment of the world. And that is why God still chastises people.






Good word, Seth

"For the  GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

TEACHING us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" Titus 2 12

His teaching is grace; his grace is teaching.

Grace and peace

Brandon

Offline Taffy

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2009, 08:14:13 PM »
....

A couple of thoughts. 

Jesus said, "which is easier, to say, thy sins are forgiven,
or to take up thy bed and walk?" 

This statement of His has made me think about what you said too.

Seth, I noticed YOU said:
The cross is the judgment of the world which reveals that the judgment of the world is to put to death the flesh within us as we see Christ's flesh was put to death.

Jesus was "made" a curse for us.

Taking your statment that you spoke above, would you say that
Jesus "allowed" the judgement "of the world" to crucify him???
since he laid down his life "willingly."

But He rose with a GREATER AUTHORITY that the one that crucified
him, and it is written "if they had known who it was they were
crucifying, they would NOT have crucified the Lord of Glory!

Taking your statment again, concerning the judgement of the "world"
is to PUT to death the flesh.........

would you say that the JUDGEMENT OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
IS TO 'BRING LIFE?"


Is that what "judgement unto life" means?'

So HIS Judgement "follows" the crucifixion?



To the bolded part, YES! Exactly. The cross really shows how the flesh and Spirit are opposing forces. In the flesh, Christ's death was an unmitigated murder. He have his life willingly, yet it was still a murder because it was slaying of a man who did nothing wrong.

Jesus said that the judgment of the world was the death that he would die.

SO, what Romans 6 reveals is that Christ's death is the likeness of the demise of our old carnal mindset, our old man, the flesh. And his resurrection is the likeness of our walk in newness of life. The cross represents the internal judgment of God against our sinful flesh so that we may walk new. And it was by that literal death two thousand years ago, that made Christ's resurrection possible, to be a life giving spirit. This is what being baptized into his death means. The life that comes with that death is simultaneous. In other words, to die to the flesh IS to live.

By being baptized into Christ's death we are baptized into the death of our flesh-mindedness by the resurrected life, the Spiritual baptism. The resurrected life brings death to death, and life to the one once bound to death. That is the judgment of the world. And that is why God still chastises people.





AMEN G :icon_flower:
NOW is THE JUDGMENT of this world and ***NOW*** is the day of salvation   
Having been baptized into HIS DEATH we must strive, as did Paul, TO KNOW the power OF HIS RESURRECTION!! 

Rom 6:3-8  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him


for me RL these verses sum up what you ask... :icon_flower:

Hbr 9:23  [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 


 Hbr 9:24   For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 


 Hbr 9:25   Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 


 Hbr 9:26   For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 


 Hbr 9:27   And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 


 Hbr 9:28   So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 10:16:18 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Dallas

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2009, 08:15:33 PM »
Actually it has to do with the two covenants.

The Old covenant was a duty orientated covenant. You do this and this will happen type thing. The Jew was bound to do then recieve.

Such other problems like this one...

The new covenant of Jeremiah 32 (Hebrews8) says that "All will know Me from the least to the greatest because I will forget their sin and remember their iniquity no longer."

ALL WILL KNOW ME....

O.k. now what about the big problem in Matthew 7..."Not everyone who says Lord Lord will ebeter into the kingdom of heaven....(why? keep reading).... depart from me you who practice LAWLESSNESS for you never KNEW Me."

Quite the contradiction eh?

The new covenant says all will know yet Jesus said leave me I never knew you.

It's about timeliness. The old covenant allows for the punishment and casting away of people bound to that covenant, the new covenant alots no such action. While the old covenant had power many were discarded, under the new all are accepted.

When Jesus said if you forgive then you will be forgiven He was still living in a world under the old covenant. He was respecting that which was in power and related to the people appropriately. The law is conditional so Jesus gave them a condition.

aspiring son

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2009, 08:24:47 PM »
I think it's also about the judgement you bring upon yourself as a result of God's universal law; such as you reap what you sow. If you cannot forgive someone, your hardened heart  is not able to receive real forgiveness. If you can't forgive, you will never experiance the freedom of knowing that you have been truly forgiven.

just my  :2c:

Offline Seth

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2009, 08:43:37 PM »
I think it's also about the judgement you bring upon yourself as a result of God's universal law; such as you reap what you sow. If you cannot forgive someone, your hardened heart  is not able to receive real forgiveness. If you can't forgive, you will never experiance the freedom of knowing that you have been truly forgiven.

just my  :2c:

Amen. God's judgments are about having us reap what we sow so that we start planning better seeds.

Offline Dallas

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2009, 09:00:59 PM »
Seth -
Quote
Amen. God's judgments are about having us reap what we sow so that we start planning better seeds.

You actually think you live in a world that you get what you deserve based on your actions?

Thats completely against the truth of grace, getting what you do no based on what you deserve... when Paul quoted that it was an old covenant promise.

If that's what you want then i hope you get what you plant, that should again remind you why you need Jesus...

I don't get what I deserve... I get what I get because of what Jesus did. I am more than excited to teach everyone the same very truth, you are free from what you have done as far as punishment goes... however you will recieve from people on this planet don't live in a grace understanding, thank God Im not part of this system anymore.

When you approach someone and punch them in the face, if that is not a grace oprientated person you will recieve what you deserve, but if peace joy and righteousness is in thier heart you will recieve forgiveness.

Just as God gave you...

SQ

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2009, 09:31:54 PM »
I think it's also about the judgement you bring upon yourself as a result of God's universal law; such as you reap what you sow. If you cannot forgive someone, your hardened heart  is not able to receive real forgiveness. If you can't forgive, you will never experiance the freedom of knowing that you have been truly forgiven.

just my  :2c:


Amen. God's judgments are about having us reap what we sow so that we start planning better seeds.
Have you ever beat yourself up over and over for what you feel may have been a bad choice?
I do this way more than I would like I am not sure if it is a hardened heart or self doubt or doublemindness.
I do know we can put our own self in some harsh judgment, I do hope this is all the judgement there is for me.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 01:18:03 AM by SQ »

aspiring son

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2009, 10:25:21 PM »
Beating yourself up over a bad choice isn't a necessarily a hard heart; it's self condemnation. That is something we all wrestle with as we try to further understand God.

Two meanings of grace are- Divine influence on something, or unmerited favor. We receive both. Condemnation can be a blocker of seeing God's unmerited favor. I know sometimes it's easier said than done, but when we are quickened by the truth we know there truly is no condemnation in Christ.
Rom 8-1

Seth -
Quote
Amen. God's judgments are about having us reap what we sow so that we start planning better seeds.

You actually think you live in a world that you get what you deserve based on your actions?

Thats completely against the truth of grace, getting what you do no based on what you deserve... when Paul quoted that it was an old covenant promise.

If that's what you want then i hope you get what you plant, that should again remind you why you need Jesus...

I don't get what I deserve... I get what I get because of what Jesus did. I am more than excited to teach everyone the same very truth, you are free from what you have done as far as punishment goes... however you will recieve from people on this planet don't live in a grace understanding, thank God Im not part of this system anymore.

When you approach someone and punch them in the face, if that is not a grace oprientated person you will recieve what you deserve, but if peace joy and righteousness is in thier heart you will recieve forgiveness.

Just as God gave you...

Jesus paid the debt for all sin. However, if you commit a crime, you still go to jail. Like wise in the spirit, if you are an unforgiving person you will not know wht forgiveness is truly; UNTIL God has quickened you. Then you can see the error of your ways, only by the spirit of God.
Most people are unforgiving to others because there is something inside they cannot forgive of themselves.
As I said earlier, grace is also unmerited favor which is for all of us. But that does not negate the fact that there are consequences to our thinking and actions, for the purpose of teaching.

Grace and peace

Brandon

Offline Dallas

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2009, 11:04:54 PM »
Quote
Jesus paid the debt for all sin. However, if you commit a crime, you still go to jail. Like wise in the spirit, if you are an unforgiving person you will not know wht forgiveness is truly; UNTIL God has quickened you. Then you can see the error of your ways, only by the spirit of God.
Most people are unforgiving to others because there is something inside they cannot forgive of themselves.
As I said earlier, grace is also unmerited favor which is for all of us. But that does not negate the fact that there are consequences to our thinking and actions, for the purpose of teaching.

Grace and peace

All these things you mentioned are still true for unbelievers. For instance, an unbeliever can learn from mistakes, so what you are saying is the spirit of God is alive and working in the hearts of unbelievers?

Consequences is not a biblical principle, it's cause and effect. Not everyone learns based on this idea, so then does that mean they don't go through cause and effect? Of course they do, everyone does. If God where driving this principle in order to enlighten everyone cause and effect would have worked out sin.

Truth is, you get alot of what you do back.... not a God principle we are to live by, a simple bit of reality.

For just ask all the people who are now broke from tithing. They sure sowed alot, now their reward is a lack of food and rent in the rears...

If God invented sowing and reaping to teach then why hasn't the churched learned... they have been through decade after decade of civil war within themselves yet continue to fight. If God were leading such a cause how come He hasn't succeeded.

Because cause and effect are real, no this mystical idea of Christian sowing and reaping.

aspiring son

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2009, 11:39:08 PM »
I believe that God is working in everybody, even if they don't know it yet. And they don't know it yet because for the time they are blind to the divine nature , not knowing all they go through is leading them to their savior and spiritual awakening and redemption. And Christ and his body are being prepared to show them this deliverence.

The curse of sin has made some murderers, theives, alchohlics, etc. What they ( and we in the past) have sown is not good, so we have not reaped good things. But by the goodness of God, we are brought to repentance. So with goodenss sown to us, we plant the good seed. All creation needs is to be sown the ultimate good seed within everything, which will happen. It's true we don't always learn from it. Some do, some don't.

Unbelivers cannot work out salvation through reaping and sowing because even sowing good is a far cry from sowing perfection. Jesus sowed perfection to us all, He will soon be reaping.  :bigGrin:
Blessings

SQ

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2009, 01:24:45 AM »
 This is a good thread for learning !! :thumbsup:

Offline Dallas

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2009, 01:34:20 AM »
Quote
I believe that God is working in everybody, even if they don't know it yet. And they don't know it yet because for the time they are blind to the divine nature , not knowing all they go through is leading them to their savior and spiritual awakening and redemption. And Christ and his body are being prepared to show them this deliverence.

The curse of sin has made some murderers, theives, alchohlics, etc. What they ( and we in the past) have sown is not good, so we have not reaped good things. But by the goodness of God, we are brought to repentance. So with goodenss sown to us, we plant the good seed. All creation needs is to be sown the ultimate good seed within everything, which will happen. It's true we don't always learn from it. Some do, some don't.

Unbelivers cannot work out salvation through reaping and sowing because even sowing good is a far cry from sowing perfection. Jesus sowed perfection to us all, He will soon be reaping.
- Aspiring Son

First off let me say, Thank God finally some discussion and not pointless arguing :thumbsup:

This stuff I bolded because it's biblical.

These quotes though I can't seem to find a biblical concept to back it.

Quote
But by the goodness of God, we are brought to repentance.
Man can't repent. We don't have it in us, hence the hundreds of years God gave Israel to repent and they couldn't so eventually the understanding of the need for a saviour enveloped their whole understanding. God doesn't show any interest in us repenting due to Jesus, in fact it only seems that now Jesus has repented us. Repententance was for the Jew to return to the covenant God made with Abraham. Here Peter warns Israel to repent, and even tells them the punishment they are trying to save themsleves from will come upon their generation, as Jesus taught them in Matthew 24-25.

 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

Acts 2:38 "Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

   39"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

   40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"

Peter didn't just get that idea from thin air, he learned it from the scriptures;

Jeremiah 5:3 "O LORD, do not Your eyes look for truth? You have smitten them,But they did not weaken;You have consumed them,But they refused to take correction They have made their faces harder than rock;They have refused to repent."

Jeremiah 8:6 "I have listened and heard, They have spoken what is not right; No man repented of his wickedness,Saying, 'What have I done?'Everyone turned to his course,Like a horse charging into the battle,"

Israel could not repent and thus where punished by the covenant agreement. That brought the end to that agreement, then the new agreement of God's promise to Jesus of inclusion by Jesus' blood, not our repentance. If the Jew couldn't do what makes anyone think they can? The fool's adage that some how the Holy Spirit came to empower them over sin? No, they would overcome through the washing away of their sin by His blood, by His sacrifice, by His action.

Quote
So with goodenss sown to us

There is absolutley no biblical foundation to the thought that Jesus somehow left a peice of something with us to leads us anywhere? (If that's what you were sugesting) What He did do is, we are now the rightouesness of God in Christ Jesus (1 Corinthinas 5), as He is so are we in this world (1 John), If Christ be in you the Holy Spirit is one with you (Romans), You are complete in Him (colossians)

No where do I see that you are being turned into a good thing, but i see that you have been turned into divinity, not a spark given, tranformation has taken place.


Offline Redlettervoice

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2009, 06:04:25 AM »
.


Yes, Dallas, who hath first given to God and HE recompensed
for of Him and thru Him are all things and all things are for
your sakes.

It is the goodness of God that leads man to repent.



So many good words in this thread, I won't address them all
but this is a good thread I would recommend this reading.

Gilbert

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2009, 07:20:34 AM »
.


Yes, Dallas, who hath first given to God and HE recompensed
for of Him and thru Him are all things and all things are for
your sakes.

It is the goodness of God that leads man to repent.



So many good words in this thread, I won't address them all
but this is a good thread I would recommend this reading.

Hi! RedLetterVoice
Many months ago I created this Flash Presentation to add as StolenSpirit Web Content.
It is titled, "How is God great?".
I would like to share it with you as it is very pertinent to your testimony here saying, "It is the goodness of God that leads man to repent"

It is better to view it with Sound ON.
LINK: http://www.stolenspirit.com/_SS_FlashPresentation/_SS-HowIsGodGreat/HowIsGodGreat.html

Offline Seth

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2009, 11:22:48 AM »
You actually think you live in a world that you get what you deserve based on your actions?

Thats completely against the truth of grace, getting what you do no based on what you deserve... when Paul quoted that it was an old covenant promise.

If that's what you want then i hope you get what you plant, that should again remind you why you need Jesus...

Wow, you want me to reap what I sow so that I learn....

Interesting.

Paul said that the old covenant method was that it condemned for sin without the power to save FROM sin. The difference between the old and new covenant is the power of the Spirit of Christ, who is able to save from sin, where the law only condemned.


Quote
When you approach someone and punch them in the face, if that is not a grace oprientated person you will recieve what you deserve, but if peace joy and righteousness is in thier heart you will recieve forgiveness.

The power of the Spirit is in saving someone from WANTING to punch someone in the face in the first place. That is salvation from the FLESH. That is why Christ died on the cross and was raised as a life giving Spirit: TO SAVE FROM DEATH.

If you think people are saved while still living IN death then you are WAY off the whole point of the gospel and WHY it is good news. It's not good news to tell people who are suffering in sin that they are already saved. It IS good news to tell them of a way to be saved from the slavery they are in.

aspiring son

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2009, 04:32:09 PM »
Dallas,

Good Morning. This is where we are agreeing, and I don't think we are far off.

Under the old covenant, eye for eye, tooth for tooth etc. is literally reapig what you sow. I also feel what you are saying about cause and affect is similar to my take on reaping and sowing. But Christ changed the method of reaping what was sown.

"But awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God; I speak this to your shame.

But some will say, How are the dead raised up? with what body do they come?

Fool! That which you sow is notquckened, except it die." 1 Cor 15 34-36

" So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption.

It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, there is a spiritual body." 1 Cor 15 42-44

So with that Christ did not reap death and sin for dying under the curse. And because of that, neither shall we.
 
2. " Or are you ( so blind as to) trifle with and presume upon and despise and underestimate the wealth of His kindness and forbearance and long suffering and patience? Are you mindful or actually ignorant ( of the fact ) God's kindness is intended to lead you to repent( chage your mind and inner man to accept God's will)? " ROM 2-4 Amplified
This is what I meant by the goodness sown to us. Christ's resurrection and the spirit of Christ leading us to repent.

3. I absolutely agree that no one can obey the old covenant. I beleive that whole heartedly. However, I do believe the holy spirit can keep us from sinning.
" Now to him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you fautless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

To the only wise God and Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominoin and power, both NOW and FOREVER." Jude 24-25

You are right that it is Christ's blood that saves us. But in the blood we have access into the holy of holies, the inner most sanctified realm of Christ. And we are to not despise the chastening of the Lord for,

" Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but greivous; nevertheless afterward it yields fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby" Heb 12-5This to me is the spirit working within us, burning away sin.

Matthew Ch 13 Jesus talks of the parable of the seeds sown. Cares of the world, no roots, etc. are all mental things. Everything we take in and let in our hearts can be viewed as some kind of seed, for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. If the seeds are the cares of this world. Then that's what are physical lives will emulate. If the holy spirit is working in us and delivering us from our iniquities, than that's what will be shown to the world as witness.

Blessings

Brandon




Gilbert

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2009, 05:19:33 PM »
Dallas,

Good Morning. This is where we are agreeing, and I don't think we are far off.

Under the old covenant, eye for eye, tooth for tooth etc. is literally reapig what you sow. I also feel what you are saying about cause and affect is similar to my take on reaping and sowing. But Christ changed the method of reaping what was sown.

"But awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God; I speak this to your shame.

But some will say, How are the dead raised up? with what body do they come?

Fool! That which you sow is notquckened, except it die." 1 Cor 15 34-36

" So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption.

It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, there is a spiritual body." 1 Cor 15 42-44

So with that Christ did not reap death and sin for dying under the curse. And because of that, neither shall we.
 
2. " Or are you ( so blind as to) trifle with and presume upon and despise and underestimate the wealth of His kindness and forbearance and long suffering and patience? Are you mindful or actually ignorant ( of the fact ) God's kindness is intended to lead you to repent( chage your mind and inner man to accept God's will)? " ROM 2-4 Amplified
This is what I meant by the goodness sown to us. Christ's resurrection and the spirit of Christ leading us to repent.

3. I absolutely agree that no one can obey the old covenant. I beleive that whole heartedly. However, I do believe the holy spirit can keep us from sinning.
" Now to him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you fautless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

To the only wise God and Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominoin and power, both NOW and FOREVER." Jude 24-25

You are right that it is Christ's blood that saves us. But in the blood we have access into the holy of holies, the inner most sanctified realm of Christ. And we are to not despise the chastening of the Lord for,

" Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but greivous; nevertheless afterward it yields fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby" Heb 12-5This to me is the spirit working within us, burning away sin.

Matthew Ch 13 Jesus talks of the parable of the seeds sown. Cares of the world, no roots, etc. are all mental things. Everything we take in and let in our hearts can be viewed as some kind of seed, for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. If the seeds are the cares of this world. Then that's what are physical lives will emulate. If the holy spirit is working in us and delivering us from our iniquities, than that's what will be shown to the world as witness.

Blessings

Brandon

Hi!

I really enjoyed these comments.

If you don't mind, I would like to add some additional thoughts which might be worthwhile to attach to this Thread.

The kernel has the invisible life in itself and this life is the beginning of the new plant. The kernel does not produce a kernel, but a new plant which will produce new kernels later. The new life starts at regeneration and it grows just like a plant develops from the seed. The seed is not made alive, it dies. But that which was its life develops into a new plant.
In the same way the physical body that dies is not made alive again but decomposes in the same way as the outside of the kernel. The inner life develops into a new appearance, different from the seed, but in keeping with the laws of life that are hidden in it.

From every seed an individual body develops. It may be a tree, a shrub, or some variation of corn or other kind of plant. The plant that develops may be compared with the spiritual body. The seed that vanished decomposes to dust, (a picture of the physical body), but the plant (spiritual body) develops in another atmosphere (kingdom of God) where there is light and air and sun.

When the Lord returns, those who slept in Christ will be raised; they will arise first. Their spiritual body is raised, (1Cor 15:44), but their physical body which has long returned to dust and will not be raised.

Those who have fallen asleep have rested from their labors, but at a sign of the Most High they will arise and take up (resume) their work. The power of God gives substance to their spiritual bodies, giving it flesh and bones, similar to that of the glorified Lord. At all times, however the spiritual body remains spiritual, that is subjected to spiritual laws only, not to earthly laws. For that reason it is not confined in time or place; this body cannot be localized or entered into a time-scheme.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 05:22:57 PM by Gilbert »

Offline Redlettervoice

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2009, 05:40:19 PM »
.


Whatever God has sown in your garden, "will" come up!


 
Isa 61:11 -
For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.


Just look at that wording "spring forth" .....it is all thru that part of
Isa. . . it shall spring forth, shall ye not know it? etc.



Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2009, 06:02:24 PM »
Quote
would you say that the JUDGEMENT OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
IS TO 'BRING LIFE?"

Is that what "judgement unto life" means?'

So HIS Judgement "follows" the crucifixion?
I was thinking of this over the last few days, Carlene - about God's judgement being unto LIFE.  It is YOU who have brought me to think about that from the times we've talked.  The blood of Christ speaking GREATER things than the blood of Abel.   Christ swallows up death.  Christ is a shock absorber.  It is not in man's nature to be that way.  It is only by the Spirit of God that men/people become that way after that pattern of Christ.... "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing...."   This is the opposite of the judgement that the world judges.   This world is OPPOSED to mercy!  Isn't that a shame!

Anne
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2009, 06:15:02 PM »
Quote
Most people are unforgiving to others because there is something inside they cannot forgive of themselves.

If this is true, all the more reason why we do our own selves a favor by praying for our enemies -- knowing that they are in bondage
that causes them to be unable to accept love.   Does that make sense?   Another way of thinking of it - since we are all connected,
to hold something against someone is like holding it against your own self because we are one body.  Now I'm asking myself, what
prevents the Holy Spirit from overturning all this anger in so many people on the earth?  Why can it not just be done?  Do you think
it is possible that one day everything will change in the twinkling of an eye when we are not even looking for it?   I have been thinking
about that this week as well.  About how so many of us think the world is just going to get worse and worse until no one can even live
on the earth.  Maybe that is not how it will happen though.  Maybe God will 'SUDDENLY come into his temple'!  Wow!
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

aspiring son

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Re: Forgiveness and Peace Through The Cross
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2009, 06:49:12 PM »
Quote
Christ is a shock absorber

I like that.   :bigGrin:

Thanks for adding as well. Gil,

Blessings.