Author Topic: do you have spiritual evidence for UR being the right path?  (Read 1786 times)

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Offline anti_nietzsche

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do you have spiritual evidence for UR being the right path?
« on: November 01, 2008, 01:59:51 PM »
Hi all,

I'd like to ask you whether you believe in UR and also have had visions or other instances of God supernaturally influencing your life.

I invested some time and belief in UR in spring and some of summer, but at the end of July I went away from it because it seemed to me that the bible, if taken at face value, does not teach UR at all. I mean, if UR were true, should it not be a bit more obvious? As it is, UR requires really delicate tweaking and interpreting of scripture, and that just doesn't seem very truthful and evident of truth for me.

Since I went away from it and in the same time made an effort to believe in Jesus and trust in the Holy Spirit, I have gotten forward. I still have fears, but by speaking in tongues one day I realized that I need to trust even when in the fear, rather than waiting for the fear to subside and only then being really willing to trust in God deeply enough. I've also had God speak to me a few times, and the Holy Spirit was there for me too. In fact, anytime I managed to simply trust the Holy Spirit, I ended up feeling calmth, strength and peace.

I've discussed this with a friend who believes in ET, and he says that believing in UR is like using a sedating medicine to sedate your gum while the tooth of faith which you need to get through life, is in fact decaying and requires a filling. I've realized this to be true. Sure, UR is a beautiful theory, but it ain't the truth, so all it does is to remove pain which one day will return again when you have to face the truth.

Now I don't think UR is a blasphemy like some people think. It doesn't speak badly of God and all, and the early church didn't condemn it either.

But I do believe it's misleading. It's a bit childish ... we close our eyes and say "nothing bad will happen, nothing bad will happen" ... and then when the bad happens, we are disappointed. We should rather sincerely work at the means by which either God is so pleased that nothing bad will happen, or which will take us through bad times because we really come to sincerely love Him, like Job, Daniel, Abraham etc.

But anyway, I'd like some input first on whether an UR person has experienced a true prophetic message here.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: do you have spiritual evidence for UR being the right path?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2008, 02:45:27 PM »
I invested some time and belief in UR in spring and some of summer, but at the end of July I went away from it because it seemed to me that the bible, if taken at face value, does not teach UR at all. I mean, if UR were true, should it not be a bit more obvious?
Yep. You are completely right! That's why there is only one type of Christianity besides UR....  :laughing7:
Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Reformed/ Presbyterian, Anglican/ Episcopalian, Methodist/ Wesleyan, Baptist, YW, etc etc

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As it is, UR requires really delicate tweaking and interpreting of scripture, and that just doesn't seem very truthful and evident of truth for me.
No UR requires reading the same OT as Lord Jesus did. How can that be a sign of 'tweaking'?


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I've also had God speak to me a few times, and the Holy Spirit was there for me too. In fact, anytime I managed to simply trust the Holy Spirit, I ended up feeling calmth, strength and peace.

I never had God/HS speaking to me. (I doubt it will ever happen) I heard people from all denominations make such claims. Assuming most of them didn't lie about it it proves nothing.

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I've discussed this with a friend who believes in ET, and he says that believing in UR is like using a sedating medicine to sedate your gum while the tooth of faith which you need to get through life, is in fact decaying and requires a filling. I've realized this to be true. Sure, UR is a beautiful theory, but it ain't the truth, so all it does is to remove pain which one day will return again when you have to face the truth.

Likewise I think ET is a rotten tooth. The sedating doesn't seem to work because many of it following go out of their minds thinking of loved ones on the BBQ. ET is also rotten tooth because it calls Son a failure and Father an incompetent creator.
But kudos for you that you admit the ET tooth needs sedating. By that you and your friend admit it's a sick tooth infected by caries of misinterpretation.

 
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But I do believe it's misleading. It's a bit childish ... we close our eyes and say "nothing bad will happen, nothing bad will happen"

Many bad things will happen in the 'UR world'.
The difference is that those things aren't eternal and useless.


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We should rather sincerely work at the means by which either God is so pleased that nothing bad will happen,

Personally I think that can be said for all religious people.

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or which will take us through bad times because we really come to sincerely love Him, like Job, Daniel, Abraham etc.

Personally I'm not at that level yet. But I'm certain many on this board love Father/Son/HS as much or more that any ET follower.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2008, 03:42:16 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline anti_nietzsche

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Re: do you have spiritual evidence for UR being the right path?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2008, 03:59:15 PM »
Well, if all these denominations place so much value on that which separates them from other denominations, in fact that much value to sort of secede from them, when all of these say UR is not obvious, then that leaves us with the following options:

1) UR is the hidden meaning of the bible available only to those with a particular blessing of understanding ----> gnosticism!

2) UR is not the truth because God would have made that obvious in the bible, if it were!

3) Nobody knows the truth about our eventual fate as it's all remaining a mystery.(That's my stance, when it comes down to whether I am truly certain of how it all will work out)

4) UR is the obvious truth, because reason readily agrees with it ----> gives emphasis to reason rather than to scripture / allows discarding of that scripture as faulty which does not agree with UR because UR is our only true hope

I say UR requires a tweaking because of what it does to the meaning of verses like in the for ever and ever / age during debate. For example, Christ says the condemned will receive the same fate as the devil and his angels. This contradicts UR unless you also believe that the devil will only receive punishment for a time.

Personally I don't believe in ET as if it's about an eternal torture chamber. Instead I think it is about existence in a bleak and terrible black world void of God's good influence. I do fear about my loved ones going there but ultimately that is their decision and it's largely independent of what I can do. Salvation is decided between a man and his God, not between man and man. In fact UR seems like an idea that came up between man and man, because it is so reasonable, because it balances opinions. But as such, it leaves out God - it makes God the Saviour of everyone without anyone having to do something. Sort of like an automatic salvation.

When it comes to love I suppose the love God is after really is different from what UR people make love up to be. It must be a very obedient love. It must, at least at times and potentially, be sacrificial. It must be very sincere, humble and reverential. It's normal that we don't easily have such love, but I think God wants all of us to get there eventually.

Don't think I mean you harm. I'm not coming here to preach hellfire. I just have sincere objections to UR. I really would prefer if it were true, but if it's not the truth I must adapt. Love for the truth is important in our faith.

pneuma

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Re: do you have spiritual evidence for UR being the right path?
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2008, 04:25:03 PM »
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As it is, UR requires really delicate tweaking and interpreting of scripture, and that just doesn't seem very truthful and evident of truth for me.

Not really bro try reading young's literal translation of the bible and no tweaking is required.

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But I do believe it's misleading. It's a bit childish ... we close our eyes and say "nothing bad will happen, nothing bad will happen"


Anti for someone who has invested some time in looking into UR to say the above shows to me your lack of understanding as to just what the Universalist believes.

We all reap what we sow bro, if we sow death we reap death, the only difference between our view on death from those who believe in ET is that we understand the ministration of death to be our schoolteacher that leads us to Christ.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: do you have spiritual evidence for UR being the right path?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2008, 04:28:53 PM »
Well, if all these denominations place so much value on that which separates them from other denominations, in fact that much value to sort of secede from them, when all of these say UR is not obvious,
Or all are derivates of the same corrupted text.
Catholic Purgatory isn't really in line with the others. In a way it's between ET and UR. A ending milder punishment. A punishment that cleans.


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1) UR is the hidden meaning of the bible available only to those with a particular blessing of understanding ----> gnosticism!
Or just reading the correct books. And thinking for yourself. Surely I'm low on the religious ladder no mather what domination. But I've spoken to a few ET followers. The 'mild type'. They just read. And more often just listen to a sermon. But they never investigate. Like I wrote before: "I was on the last Jerry Springer show so it must me true."
UR people are rowing upstream. They study for themselfs. Yes they could be wrong. But IMO personally gathered knowledge gives a clear edge over borrowed brains...

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2) UR is not the truth because God would have made that obvious in the bible, if it were!
I answere that already. I think it's very clear and obvious if you use the correct translations.

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3) Nobody knows the truth about our eventual fate as it's all remaining a mystery.(That's my stance, when it comes down to whether I am truly certain of how it all will work out)
Agreed. We only need the rough outlines we need to know. But eternal torturture or eternal happiness is part of the rough outlines.

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4) UR is the obvious truth, because reason readily agrees with it ----> gives emphasis to reason rather than to scripture / allows discarding of that scripture as faulty which does not agree with UR because UR is our only true hope
No need to answer that on a UR forum  :laughing7:

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I say UR requires a tweaking because of what it does to the meaning of verses like in the for ever and ever / age during debate. For example, Christ says the condemned will receive the same fate as the devil and his angels. This contradicts UR unless you also believe that the devil will only receive punishment for a time.

I sense someone will answer that opinion with more words than you can count  :laughing7:

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Personally I don't believe in ET as if it's about an eternal torture chamber. Instead I think it is about existence in a bleak and terrible black world void of God's good influence.

So Jesus and the angles spend eternity watching them in that black world.
Just my guess, but I think Jesus would prefer to chat with His Father and play with childeren and animals in Heaven. Do happy things instead of watching a black world for eternity. Or do you think Jesus gets pleasure from watchin a black world?
Did God forget to wipe away billions of tears that are more than likely to be present in a black world?


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I do fear about my loved ones going there but ultimately that is their decision and it's largely independent of what I can do. Salvation is decided between a man and his God, not between man and man
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Partly true. It's also commanded to pray for others. My guess it that is not just to give you some passtime.



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In fact UR seems like an idea that came up between man and man, because it is so reasonable, because it balances opinions. But as such, it leaves out God - it makes God the Saviour of everyone without anyone having to do something. Sort of like an automatic salvation.
And why is it unreasonble to believe in something reasonble. Automatic salvation... I think it's more guaranteed salvation. A small but important diffence.
Why is it unreasonble to say all a saved when God states all will be saved, His will shall be done and His powers know no boundries?
Did God overestimated Himself?

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When it comes to love I suppose the love God is after really is different from what UR people make love up to be. It must be a very obedient love. It must, at least at times and potentially, be sacrificial. It must be very sincere, humble and reverential. It's normal that we don't easily have such love, but I think God wants all of us to get there eventually.

So many contracdictions in that paragraph....
Let me summarize my thoughts about that with "Forced love is no love."


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Don't think I mean you harm. I'm not coming here to preach hellfire. I just have sincere objections to UR. I really would prefer if it were true, but if it's not the truth I must adapt. Love for the truth is important in our faith.

I never felt your post as an attack. You supported your claims. I respect that even if I don't agree.



:Yeahright: End of sermon   :soap:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Tony N

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Re: do you have spiritual evidence for UR being the right path?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2008, 04:39:21 PM »


1) UR is the hidden meaning of the bible available only to those with a particular blessing of understanding ----> gnosticism!

Tony's reply:
A properly translated Bible makes UR very exposed.


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2) UR is not the truth because God would have made that obvious in the bible, if it were!

Tony's reply:
"Pro 25:2 It is the glory of Elohim to conceal a matter, And the glory of kings to investigate a matter."
A properly translated Bible such as the Concordant Literal New Testament makes UR obvious.

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3) Nobody knows the truth about our eventual fate as it's all remaining a mystery.(That's my stance, when it comes down to whether I am truly certain of how it all will work out)

Tony's reply:
I know the truth about our eventual fate.


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4) UR is the obvious truth, because reason readily agrees with it ----> gives emphasis to reason rather than to scripture / allows discarding of that scripture as faulty which does not agree with UR because UR is our only true hope
Tony's reply:
I first of all give emphasis to Scripture. No Scripture should be discarded and in fact, a properly translated Bible needs no cutting out of Scripture, especially when correctly partitioned.



Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

martincisneros

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Re: do you have spiritual evidence for UR being the right path?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2008, 12:06:25 AM »
Without getting into all of the spiritual experiences that I've had, my first major vision of the Universal Restoration was after I'd read this.  I was totally transported to the world of 1Corinthians 15:28 one day in 2003 after having read this in a book:

http://www.gtft.org/ElhananWinchester/Winchester016.html

I've been back many times since.  Yeah, I could talk visions, dreams, being caught away to heaven like Enoch or St. Paul, and countless other experiences for hours that I've had regarding the Scriptural truth of this, but if I go too far, then wouldn't your question be subject to the potential for twisting my words into making my beliefs in this a matter of subjective experience rather than "line upon line, precept upon precept"?  So, I'll refrain always from sharing 99% of my experiences with the Lord in relation to this truth.  As far as the nature and plain sense of the Scriptures:

Contrary to the central affirmation of some regarding the  "plain interpretation" of Scripture necessarily leading to a belief in eternal destruction, the depth of Scripture is such that it can perplex angels (1 Pet 1:12), the Apostle Peter (2 Pet 3:15-16), and potential converts (Acts 8:30-35); requires growth in grace to understand (Heb 5:11-14) and special teachers to explain (2 Tim 2:2); and is susceptible to false teachers distorting it (1 Tim 1:7).

But as Tony N. has said, better translations like the Concordant, Scarlett's, Rotherham's, Young's, Hanson's, and the earlier editions of Weymouth's translation makes UR less a matter of "interpretation" and much easier to perceive than having to work around mistranslations in the KJV and other translations that in their forwards clearly admit that they're "following in the traditions of the KJV."

If it were a matter of experiences, though, then I'd share a hundred thousand words with you of all of the places I've been taken by each Scripture that speaks to me of the Universal Restoration.  The restoration of all of humanity through Jesus Christ is only entry level UR.  There's the issue of animals and angels that many people choke on because of bad information many of them entertain about the origins and nature of the "authority of darkness," who/what has a soul/spirit, etc.  But the further you get into the Scriptures with this, it winds up having the Biblical depths that any other subject in the Scriptures has.  It's consistent with the will of God that none should perish and that believers should pray first of all for all men.  It's consistent with loving your neighbor and praying for your enemies.  It's consistent with the meaning of the Greek word translated "Gospel" that only has a very small handful of uses outside of the New Testament in ancient Greek, that you can probably count on one hand, because the word literally carries the idea of good news that's "too good to be true." 

A message of Christ only redeeming the pious while trashing and burning all of the rest for all of eternity isn't very extravagent good news, because many good and godly people would consider themselves excluded from that number being all too aware of their own frailties, etc.  If He's there for people every time but the last time, then when is the last time for you?  If in the end, He's only as faithful as you prove to be, are you faithful enough?  Is the alternative message of being able to count on God if He can count on you really heart ravishing good news and the kind of love that you can leap into the arms of without worries of being dropped and/or not caught?  I knew of nothing else but the message of eternal torment the first 25 years of my life. 

The more that I meditated on the KJV and NKJV Scriptures, I never got a revelation of eternal torment that was consistent with the character, promises, and anointing of the Holy Spirit.  My flesh only grew in greater bondage to the enemy as I entertained the mistranslation and exaggeration of endless torments and/or endless separation.  When I'd be in revival services, the Anointing would be soooo intense and then suddenly the atmosphere would change in a way that was more akin to the Holy Spirit being grieved when the eternal Hell message would be used to blackmail people into conversions with the glad tidings of the Lord allegedly saying "Love Me or ELSE!!"  Apart from the fact that that's more consistent with rape than with the Scriptural warnings against trying the Lord's patience, defiling the temple of your body, and setting aside His will for your life, it also would CONSISTENTLY dry up any sense of the anointing being present.  The fear evident among the people wasn't the truly Scriptural reverential awe of the Lord, as though one were in the Presence of an Honorable and Admirable Father to be proud of.  It was more the sense of being pushed alone into a dark room [alone] with Jack the Ripper.

Show me one person that's ever been baptized with the Holy Spirit in the 20 centuries of Christianity on the message of eternal torment.  Show me one person whose body has been healed in the Name of Jesus Christ in the 20 centuries of Christianity on the message of eternal torment.  Show me one person with a broken mind who has been restored to soundness of mind in the Name of Jesus Christ in the 20 centuries of Christianity on the message of eternal separation or torment.  Show me one person whose relationship with the Lord has genuinely been enriched by the message of eternal separation or eternal torment in the 20 centuries of Christianity.  Show me one person in the 20 centuries of Christianity who has believed in the message of eternal torment who has shared in the [identical] exuberance of the prophets and psalmists of the Bible over the judgments of God THAT WASN'T A SELF RIGHTEOUS PHARISEE. 

No, people that have been healed, baptized with the Holy Spirit, delivered from mental bondages, drawn into greater intimacy with God, and encouraged in His purposes have experienced all of these things based upon aspects of truth that had nothing to do with the alleged fate of the wicked.  Why wouldn't/shouldn't the Scriptures be consistent with themselves and with the nature, attentiveness, and wisdom of God presented to us in the Scriptures?  You mentioned speaking in other tongues.  Do you not see the contradiction with the Charismatic message even?  Heal them now and eternally burn them later??  Are dozens of Jews and Gentiles that Jesus healed in His earthly ministry burning in never ending torments because their views of Him being the second person of the trinity, or God incarnate, or judge of all flesh never perfected in their understanding in this life??

Why is the message of eternal torment, if it's a true reflection of the mind and purpose of God, the only message in the Bible that one isn't edified by when one's heart is right with the Lord?  Why are there no genuine faith, hope, and love building revelations that can be gained from the Holy Spirit by such an alleged Scriptural revelation?  Why has it never enriched someone's spiritual life and promoted their sanctification beyond the level of personal, self preservation where they simply didn't want to be among the eternally lost?  Doesn't the message of eternal separation, eternal torment, or eternal destruction more easily feed the spirit of "I thank God that I'm not as other men" than the message of the Universal Restoration that brings hope, peace, contentment, eagerness in one's God, total abandonment of self to this God, and readiness to obey everything that He tells one to do from a heart of love??  Knowing one's own frailties, which message would enable one to play the part of a real man when faced with execution for one's beliefs WITHOUT ONE DOUBT about how everything will turn out that doesn't lend itself to having a gloating disposition like Tertullian and a small handful of others in the early Church that were eager to see Christ's return to massacre the wicked?

Which message screams that God is no respecter of persons and that it's the goodness of God that leads us to repentance?  When I believed in eternal punishment, my mentality was ALWAYS an "us verses them" mentality, no matter how loving that I grew.  It was never a simple matter of the 2Corinthians 5 ministry of reconciliation in my understanding.  It was more of a matter of them not being good enough if they rejected receiving Christ as fire insurance.  If God gave up on them, then why shouldn't I?  If they were irrevokably children of the devil, then why should I continue to pray and to look to the Holy Spirit for more and more resources to reach them, if I wasn't all of that sure of God's faithfulness to me, much less to them?  If God's goodness is entirely different from man's goodness, then why did Christ Jesus appeal to the better parts of fallen human nature as a testimony to the mercies we could expect from a perfect heavenly Father?  And on that basis, if one were to say that God's goodness differs entirely in kind from man's goodness, how is that not a subtle way of saying that perhaps God's not good after all?

http://www.gtft.org/ElhananWinchester/Winchester016.html

HappyBoy!

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Re: do you have spiritual evidence for UR being the right path?
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2008, 12:19:33 AM »
Thanks for sharing your thoughts so openly.   :thumbsup:  I'll share mine below.  I'm not one that debates.  It's just not in me it seems.  I do, however like to share my thoughts so I'll submit these for your consideration.

Visions

I'm 40 and I've never had a vision before or after believing UR.  I've seen answers to prayer, though who knows if it was an answer to my prayer or to the prayer of the person kneeling beside me praying for the same thing.

I still attend my ET believing church.  They would be highly suspicious of any vision as they would say that Paul completed the word of God… therefore no more visions or speaking in tongues, new revelations, etc..  NOTE: I am not bringing this up for debate, just to point out why my particular little independent Baptist church believes.

Someone saying they saw a vision would not sway me toward the validity of the doctrine that particular person holds.  In fact, it is more likely to lead me away if I find any part what-so-ever that disagrees with the Bible.

For examples, I don't know much about Islam, but I've heard it started with Mohamed's vision.  I'm not swayed toward Islam because of this vision.  I used to believe in ET, but I had serious doubts about Bill Weiss's visions of Hell.  Weiss's visions helped me start my search that ended with UR as I found them (Weiss's visions) to be unbiblical.   I hold no regard for visions of the Virgin Mary whether they appear in someone's head or on a slice of toast.

Personally, I don't deny that they exist or that people have had valid visions.  I'm open to considering it, but I don't see it as supporting any particular doctrine.  I see tongues the same way.

Tweaking

On the subject of tweaking, I've found that a lot of tweaking must be done to believe ET.  Death is not death, but is really eternal life in misery in some black world.  God is not wishing that any should perish, but his sovereign will does not really mean it.  God is the Savior of the whole world, especially those who believe…but this really means the Savior of a very few of every sort especially those believing now.  God will be all in all really means that God will be all in some.  "aion ton aion" (pardon my memory and spelling – too lazy to look it up) or "to ages of ages" symbolizes "forever and ever", though they are words that relate to time such as "months".  These are just a few examples.

So, I have this to reason out.  Do I do all of the above tweaking to support the ET view handed down to me by my parents and pastor, or do study and learn that aion means a period of time?  Is God's character such that He creates people to the end of eternal torment or is it such that He will lose nothing?  Does God prefer our "free will" over our eternal well being or does He assure that all will praise His name?

That's my  :2c:  May God richly reward you in your search.   :HeartThrob:

Offline jabcat

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Re: do you have spiritual evidence for UR being the right path?
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2008, 12:53:45 AM »
Very good answers everyone.  I'll add, for ET to be true;

An all-knowing God would have to have created billions of people (with His breath in them, with the spirit directly from God in them),
including many with absolutely no choice to but to burn forever [vessels of dishonor, appointed by God for His purpose, i.e., Judas, Herod, etc. to be what and who they were],

And knowing this from the beginning, He would have done so knowing they would be tortured/tormented for billions of trillions of years...forever!

My dear wife just opened up about her newfound understanding of UR to her "hard-core" Baptist mother, saying, "I didn't want to believe it either at first, but I got to thinking about God's love...does that (ET) sound loving to you"? 

God doesn't just have love, scripture says God IS love.

Anti, blessings to you, and you will truly see when God chooses for you to...either in this life, or in the next age. Either way, He loves you NOW. God's blessing, James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: do you have spiritual evidence for UR being the right path?
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2008, 01:11:58 AM »
Jabcat,

When someone has a certain believe and the majority has the same believe it's hard to step away from it. It has become a real part of you being.
And it's often scary to step out of the large secure group.
And that's not just true for religion.

 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: do you have spiritual evidence for UR being the right path?
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2008, 02:22:39 AM »
Yeah, I agree and have lived it.  As John McCain says, I've got the scars to prove it. :happygrin:  Actually, it could have been a lot worse, God was mercifull and didn't let it be too hard on me.  Still in process...
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 02:26:25 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23