Author Topic: Do we err in consistently quoting John 12:32 without the 31st and 33rd verses? &  (Read 1954 times)

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martincisneros

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Now, is there, a judging, of this world, - Now, the ruler of this world, shall be cast out; (John 12:31 Rotherham's)


now is a judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast forth; (John 12:31 Young's Literal)


Now is a judgement of this world: now will the Prince of this world be driven out. (John 12:31 Weymouth)


Nowe is the iudgement of this worlde: Nowe shall the prince of this worlde be cast out.  (John 12:31 Bishop's Bible 1568)


Now is [the] judgment of this world; now shall the prince of this world be cast out: (John 12:31 Darby Translation)


Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.  (John 12:31 Webster's Bible)


Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out.  (John 12:31 Green's Literal)


Have we been amiss in quoting John 12:32 without quoting the 31st and 33rd verses CONSISTENTLY EACH TIME???


31 Now is the judging of this world. Now shall the Chief of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself."
33 Now this He said, signifying by what death He was about to be dying. (John 12:31-33 CLNT)


Have we been screwing up in quoting John 12:32 without quoting the 31st and 33rd verses CONSISTENTLY EACH TIME???  Many of us quote Colossians 1:20 with verses 15-19.  Philippians 2:10 is seldom quoted by itself.  Those who quote Romans 10:9 with real regularity seldom quote it without the 10th verse. What about this that many of us so often quote from John?  Would we answer MORE QUESTIONS by quoting John 12:32 WITH the 31st and 33rd verses?


And secondly, is John 12:31 ever used as a proof text for preterism?

martincisneros

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Perhaps I should have asked [in my first post on this thread] if anybody thought that the "final judgment" happened 2000 years ago, based upon this passage of Scripture in John 12:31-33?  It would open interesting understandings of Scripture.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ (i.e. the Cross of Christ) that each may receive the things done in the Body (His Body, not ours -- grace, not works, remember?) whether good or bad (i.e. whether we're good or bad -- Christ died for the ungodly -- not that we'd receive good or bad according to what we've done, but that we'd receive from Him the gratuity of grace whether we've been good or bad) for, He hath made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin, so that we would be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Glancing over at the Concordant Literal New Testament to see if it's too rigid in the Greek to allow for this interpretation:

For all of us must be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad.

Let's look at this for a minute.  Bold print in the Concordant is based on the Greek, while light print in the Concordant isn't in the Greek text that they appeal to for their translation.  And remember, capitalization is always up for grabs based upon further insight from the Holy Spirit.

For all of us must be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which He puts into practice through the Body, whether good or bad.

Again, the each of us, whether we're good or bad, not that we'd receive good or bad from the Hand of the Lord under a covenant of grace that's superior to the covenant that Job was under.  It would be what He puts into practice through the body, as in the sense of what He's working of His grace in your body through the resurrection, or through many healings and deliverances in this life.  Or what He puts into practice through the Body, meaning His own, both Personally (i.e. His death and resurrection) and the Corporate Body of Christ as well, of our 1Timothy chapter 2 intercessions for this to be the testimony given in due time.

Our prayers bring them to a judgment seat that's already got a biased judge and a biased jury BECAUSE:

For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him.

martincisneros

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If my second post winds up being a little stout of an interpretation of 2Corinthians 5, I'd advise reading the John 12:31-33 passage that I started this thread with because that's the kind of New Testament interpretation that you're faced with if the Prince of this world was cast out BACK THEN (perhaps alluded to in Revelation chapter 12), and if Jesus actually meant that that was the judgment of the world -- the type of death that He was about to die.  You could make that into an analogy of all of us entering into the Kingdom through much tribulation, as it would say in Acts, or you could look at Paul's Vicarious (i.e. substitutionary) teaching throughout his epistles and say that when it was finished, 2000 years ago, then as Thomas Whittemore said in Plain Guide to Universalism in 1840, the White Throne Judgment was simply the setting of Old Jerusalem on fire in 70A.D.

Scary!  When I read that in Plain Guide to Universalism 7 years ago, I sorta rolled my eyes and nearly started laughing histerically over such a preposterous interpretation, but now it sorta makes sense -- at least on one level as one, [or a partial,] fulfillment of that.  I still consider myself strongly futurist in my interpretation of prophecy.  I guess this would lean me a little further towards what I said on the book of Revelation board about multiple fulfillments of the Book of Revelation, sans any area that could conclusively be proven to be a retelling of the Crucifixion.  That was once and for all.

martincisneros

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The main thing that I wanted to get into with:

31 Now is the judging of this world. Now shall the Chief of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself."
33 Now this He said, signifying by what death He was about to be dying. (John 12:31-33 CLNT)

is whether or not the judging of this world, and the chief of this world being cast out in verse 31 would imply an Ultra -- no temporary Hell whatsoever -- type of Universalism as it leads into the 32nd and 33rd verses, as though had the world not been judged in the Body of Jesus and had the chief of this world not been cast out, then a total conquest over every life would have had to have been much more gradual, but because Jesus was lifted up, then His drawing of all men to Himself can be immediately upon death?

I care more for whether this points to a shaky Biblical bases for "temporary Hell" than about the preterism issue.  I can hardly believe that for just a second there that I agreed with Thomas Whittemore on that!!  Wow!  Lots to think about and pray about along those lines.

As an almost total contradiction to what I wrote two posts ago, could this passage in John 12:31-33 indicate that every calamity that comes against sin since the crucifixion of Christ is something that has flown from the Cross of Christ, directly, so that God can more readily and immediately lay claim to each life at the immediate moment of their death?  Romans 6:23??  Would the passage in Job about "if we receive good from God's Hand, shall we not likewise receive evil from His Hand?" be even stronger under grace, so that in our New Testament we can have examples like the Book of Revelation of God coming down upon sin, in this age, in horrendous ways, so that He can forego having to go through all of that later when someone dies?

I guess this sorta takes us back to the suffering question, in the light of, or inspite of, a lovingly passionate, Universally Redemptive, Personal God.

I've received renewed hope by the Concordant Literal's translation of a portion of 1Timothy chapter 1 where this Gospel is called "the evangel of the glory of the happy God," because that ultimately excludes most presentations of the Gospel that wouldn't be discussed here, at these boards, in favorable terms.

jabcat

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Following this thread, not a lot to add, you're covering it pretty well.  There's probably several denominations we could start just from your posts here :winkgrin:.  Heck, we could even print our own Sunday School literature.  You're covering a lot of ground I find interesting to think about, but I'm not willing to come down hard on most any of it.  Yikes!  I would like to interject here (I see you refer to the CLT and I also own and read one) that I've been wanting to suggest The Christian Bible to you as well.  Its publishers tout it as "the most literal version"  :dunno:. It's a bit obscure, but got one and do find it very interesting to read.  It may be a good reference for you as you get all this topic here figured out for us  :wink:.  It is quite consistent with UR.

For you or anyone interested, it's available at www.christianbiblesociety.com.  No, lest anyone wonder, I'm not connected with them, I just think it's a good, interesting version that's worthy of more exposure.

Offline willieH

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Perhaps I should have asked [in my first post on this thread] if anybody thought that the "final judgment" happened 2000 years ago, based upon this passage of Scripture in John 12:31-33?  It would open interesting understandings of Scripture.

That is exactly WHAT it SAYS brother Martin!  The key is ...NOW...  God does not "wait" for TIME to manifest... He already KNOWS its complete pathway from beginning to end, for HE DECLARED it to be so, and happen as it does...

GOD is a "NOW" being... He ...ALWAYS IS... and NEVER CHANGES...

Quote
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ (i.e. the Cross of Christ) that each may receive the things done in the Body (His Body, not ours -- grace, not works, remember?) whether good or bad (i.e. whether we're good or bad -- Christ died for the ungodly -- not that we'd receive good or bad according to what we've done, but that we'd receive from Him the gratuity of grace whether we've been good or bad) for, He hath made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin, so that we would be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Again, in TIME we place our MOMENTS, "one at a time" upon the ONLY FOUNDATION (1 Cor 3:11)... but the JUDGMENT of those moments ALREADY IS... it is not some "future" meeting planned by GOD... it is in NOW that we live our lives, and it is in NOW that those lives are JUDGED... from HIS ETERNAL (not our TIME) perspective!

PeaCE   :Peace:

In  JESUS  ...name above all names...  ...willieH   :giveheart:



Offline willieH

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willieH: Hi Martin... :hithere:

The main thing that I wanted to get into with:

31 Now is the judging of this world. Now shall the Chief of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself."
33 Now this He said, signifying by what death He was about to be dying. (John 12:31-33 CLNT)

is whether or not the judging of this world, and the chief of this world being cast out in verse 31 would imply an Ultra -- no temporary Hell whatsoever -- type of Universalism as it leads into the 32nd and 33rd verses, as though had the world not been judged in the Body of Jesus and had the chief of this world not been cast out, then a total conquest over every life would have had to have been much more gradual, but because Jesus was lifted up, then His drawing of all men to Himself can be immediately upon death?

As CHRIST was slain, from the foundation of the World... so also was the JUDGEMENT and SALVATION...

These things (though they occur IN TIME) are not predicated upon the manifestation of TIME... they ARE the MAJESTY of the ETERNAL YHVH... who ALWAYS IS, ...ALL IN ALL...


Quote
I care more for whether this points to a shaky Biblical bases for "temporary Hell" than about the preterism issue.  I can hardly believe that for just a second there that I agreed with Thomas Whittemore on that!!  Wow!  Lots to think about and pray about along those lines.

There is no HELL at all... just a creation of fear, which emerges from the UNHOLY HEARTS of MEN... which are not (in time) perfected in LOVE which IS HOLY...

Quote
As an almost total contradiction to what I wrote two posts ago, could this passage in John 12:31-33 indicate that every calamity that comes against sin since the crucifixion of Christ is something that has flown from the Cross of Christ, directly, so that God can more readily and immediately lay claim to each life at the immediate moment of their death?  Romans 6:23??  Would the passage in Job about "if we receive good from God's Hand, shall we not likewise receive evil from His Hand?" be even stronger under grace, so that in our New Testament we can have examples like the Book of Revelation of God coming down upon sin, in this age, in horrendous ways, so that He can forego having to go through all of that later when someone dies?

There is NO FEAR in LOVE... any "hell" that man creates and believes is torment IN THIS LIFE... no need for more later on...  :dontknow:

Quote
I guess this sorta takes us back to the suffering question, in the light of, or inspite of, a lovingly passionate, Universally Redemptive, Personal God.

I've received renewed hope by the Concordant Literal's translation of a portion of 1Timothy chapter 1 where this Gospel is called "the evangel of the glory of the happy God," because that ultimately excludes most presentations of the Gospel that wouldn't be discussed here, at these boards, in favorable terms.

EVERY KNEE has already bowed (from ETERNAL perspective)... that is why:

(Ps 116:15) Precious in the sight of YHVH is the DEATH of His saints...

For DEATH is the final closure upon the involvment of EACH ONE, with EVIL and SIN... FOREVER!

JUDGMENT is a TEACHER... which shows the student the LIGHT... (Is 26:9)

PeaCE   :laughing7:

In  JESUS  ...name above all names...  ...willieH   :giveheart:
« Last Edit: May 13, 2008, 09:12:57 AM by willieH »

Offline reFORMer

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For something to be done in Christ the Head, it may yet need to come forth in at least the remainder of His body.  "...they without us shall not be perfected."  In Revelation when He says, "No more pain," He also exclaims, "It has been done."  Obviously there are other realms to which there is an open door that no man can shut!

Pray for me that I would enter.  Constant suffering for years makes it hard to not just want the temporary tenting in the flesh to end.  Yet only real answer is to partake of the Divine nature.  Even to go to the other side of the veil, one must yet pass through whatever is necessary to bring forth Christ fully formed within us.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Juan Alberto

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For something to be done in Christ the Head, it may yet need to come forth in at least the remainder of His body.  "...they without us shall not be perfected."  In Revelation when He says, "No more pain," He also exclaims, "It has been done."  Obviously there are other realms to which there is an open door that no man can shut!

Pray for me that I would enter.  Constant suffering for years makes it hard to not just want the temporary tenting in the flesh to end.  Yet only real answer is to partake of the Divine nature.  Even to go to the other side of the veil, one must yet pass through whatever is necessary to bring forth Christ fully formed within us.

I will certainly pray James as I understand perfectly where you are. I never go to prayer anymore when I don't groan and cry , "how long O Lord, how long."

Surely we are close to the end and suffering the last emptyings. I can only hope that God's sons are soon to be manifested as I groan and cry in sympathetic harmony with all creation.

Whether it be just the coming end of my own aion that I suffer I know we are still that much closer to God being All in All and that thrills my soul.

Be blessed brother and know I am praying,

Jack

"They knew the fellowship of his sufferings. They drank deeply from his cup."
« Last Edit: May 13, 2008, 10:27:00 AM by Juan Alberto »