Author Topic: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?  (Read 37697 times)

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Offline peacemaker

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #500 on: October 14, 2009, 06:35:59 AM »
"The body will quickly kneel, as it hears his voice."

The pitch, strength or tone of the voice is according to place, time, and participant
without substantially affecting the basic semantic content of that voice.

All you have to do, is listen! 


Offline sparrow

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #501 on: October 14, 2009, 08:36:09 AM »
Chris... just a few quick questions..
what do you think the lake of fire is?
What do you think it's purpose is?
What do you think judgment is/it's purpose?


Hi Sparrow, not sure I can give you a quick or easy answer, but I will try.

The only place that we see "the lake of fire" is in Rev 19 and 20. Most people say that the lake of fire is the second death. I don't quite see it that way. It doesn't seem to me as if it is "the lake of fire" (itself) that is called "the second death". As I read the passage, I understand it to say that it is being cast INTO the lake of fire that is "the second death". And who is it that is cast into the lake of fire? We have "the beast" and "the false prophet", right? And then we have "the devil" cast into it as well, right? What do the beast, the false prophet and the devil all have in common? And what do the three of them have in common with "the sons of men" (or the carnally minded)?

It seems to me that the purpose of the lake of fire is to consume that which is not fit for the kingdom of God, or "the natural man" (the first man / the outward man / the carnally minded man), that which is subject to this world and the things of this world, even the lust of the flesh, etc. Its purpose it to burn up all that "hay, wood and stubble" so that all that remains is the "gold, silver and precious stone" that is built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ. Yet even gold is tried in the fire, right?  So why should we assume that "this fiery trial which is to try you" of which Paul spoke is any other fire than "the lake of fire" into which the beast, the false prophet and the devil are cast? I see them as the same fire. I don't see one being applicable to believers and other to unbelievers.

I do not see the lake of fire as literal or physical punishment/torment but the working of God within us to burn up that which is not fit for the kingdom of God. We all died "in Adam" but we are "resurrected from the dead" by being buried (and raised) "in Christ". And Paul said HAVING BEEN buried with Christ  - being baptized into HIS DEATH – we shall also know the power of HIS LIFE – through the resurrection of the dead.

Paul said "ye are dead" but we not only died "in Adam" we have been buried with Christ, having been baptized in Jesus Christ – into His death. And our life is HID with Christ in God and when He (who is our life) appears (CHRIST IN YOU) then we shall APPEAR WITH HIM in glory (THE HOPE OF GLORY).

In the OT we read:

Psa 57:4 My soul is among lions: and I lie even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword

The way of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise, that he may depart from HELL BENEATH!! (Pro 15:24)

The more I studied the more I came to see this division in the scriptures between that which is "above" and that which is "beneath", between "the sons of God" and "the sons of men", between "the heavens" and "the earth", between "life" and "death", "bodies celestial" and "bodies terrestrial", that which is "not of this world" and that which is "of this world", between "the inward man" and "the outward man", the LAST ADAM/MAN and the FIRST ADAM/MAN.

First then natural, then the spiritual. Right?

Scripture says that "the second man" ~IS~ THE LORD FROM HEAVEN. That, to me, is not just speaking about Jesus Christ. We are His body! Amen? Paul is comparing the natural/earthy to the spiritual/heavenly. He makes no distinction between "the head" and "the body"… "the second man" IS "the Lord from heaven".

We have all been baptized by ONE SPIRIT, into ONE BODY (the body OF JESUS CHRIST). He is "the perfect man"; the head that we (the body) need to grow up into until we all come to unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God… unto the measure of the stature of the fullness OF CHRIST.  Amen?

As I see it right now, the second death is connected to the death (and resurrection) of THE SECOND MAN – it's being baptized into HIS death and ""dying" WITH HIM (just as we "died" IN ADAM first. But by being found "in Christ" and being baptized into HIS DEATH, we can also know the power of HIS RESURRECTION, as death has no power over Him. He has the keys of both death and hell.

Christ came ONCE in the end of the world TO DIE ((as it is appointed unto men)) but AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT.

So many quote this verse as if it applies to the death of "men", though it speaks specifically about the death OF JESUS CHRIST.

It is not until we "die in the Lord" that we can know the power of His resurrection (and LIFE) as it is only through Him that life and immortality come. Amen?

Two men… two Adams …. two deaths …. (that we have all been baptized into)

Just as "in Adam" all died… even so "in Christ" (by being baptized into HIS DEATH) shall all be made alive.

As I see it, we all have to go through "the second death" in order to attain unto "the resurrection of the dead" and know LIFE.

Well, I didn't intend to say so much when I started typing, so I hope I didn't go off on too may tangents in trying to answer your questions. I just see judgment and the lake of fire (second death) in relation to the death of 'the second man' (the last Adam) "in" whom we are all found and "through" whom life and immortality come.


Hi Chris, Thanks for answering my questions. I appreciate it.   :icon_flower:

What is the second death? (if you've already answered that, I'm sorry... there are a lot of posts on this thread and some stuff is getting buried.. lol.)

sorry. I just like to try to understand what people are saying as best as I possibly can.

"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #502 on: October 14, 2009, 09:33:12 AM »
(sparrow--on the rooftop--I'm expecting to answer your questions too; but, I just haven't had the time yet.  I hope the interest will still be there.  Another question was raised by someone else I need to address as well.  I stay up too late to watch Melissa Scott, 1 AM to 2 AM.  With it I have a snack I shouldn't...so, I'm breaking some kind of law for fatsos.  Our new Jewish dog [Moishe] still isn't house broken.

To the violence filling the earth from the people whose thoughts tended only to evil, was the antidote what Noah had to undergo as his responsibity on the ark:  the feeding habits of animals?)
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline sparrow

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #503 on: October 14, 2009, 09:43:29 AM »
reFormer... no rush at all brother!  :icon_flower:
Thanks!
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #504 on: October 14, 2009, 01:02:44 PM »


Hi Chris, Thanks for answering my questions. I appreciate it.   :icon_flower:

What is the second death? (if you've already answered that, I'm sorry... there are a lot of posts on this thread and some stuff is getting buried.. lol.)

sorry. I just like to try to understand what people are saying as best as I possibly can.



Hi Sparrow, I see "the second death" in connection with the death of "the second man" (the last Adam / Jesus Christ).

Just as we all died "in Adam" we were also baptized into the death of Jesus Christ. It is this "second" death that we are all baptized with when we are found "in Christ" that overcomes/destroys death - through the resurrection of the dead, as death no longer has power over us. Christ, having the keys of death of hell, frees us from the bondage of death in which we were held "in Adam".

We are not saved from death but through death by the resurrection of the dead and Jesus Christ IS the resurrection and the life. It is about being found IN HIM (and He in us - Christ in you the hope of glory).

That is how I see it right now.

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #505 on: October 14, 2009, 03:57:03 PM »

 
  awesome stuff ..  you guys are really helping me see !  thanks be to the Lord ! :HeartThrob:  wow!! I am being quickened  by these  posts!!!  :icon_flower:

Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #506 on: October 14, 2009, 06:33:56 PM »

here is an interesting article

http://www.pantelism.com/ResurrectionofCondemnation.htm

 

This website actually says many of the same things that I have said and many more things that I have not, but that I also believe. One of the problems that stand out to me, though, is the fact that they seem to tie everything to AD70.

IF "the resurrection" is spiritual and not physical (which I agree with) then why do they tie "the second coming" and "judgment" and "the resurrection of the dead" to a physical event that took place in AD70?

Why claim it's NOT physical, but spiritual, and then turn around and connect it to a physical event with a natural, worldly, physical fulfillment?

On one page I read:

"What has been touted as the rapture has been ruptured, for it was in fact the resurrection, and this all occurred in the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem which was the outward sign of end of the old covenant Mosaic age."

Now, I think I can agree with that; with the destruction of Jerusalem being an outward sign (or figure) of the end of the old covenant. But if the destruction of the city of Jerusalem was "an outward sign" then how and when is the destruction of Jerusalem (under the OC/LAW) fulfilled SPIRITUALLY?

To their credit, this website even points out the fact that Paul spoke of these things in "the present tense". And while I have pointed out the same thing many times myself to those who claim that these things are still "yet future", are we to assume that because Paul spoke of these things in the present tense so long ago that these things are now "past" and, therefore, not applicable to us today, all having their fulfillment in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 – a natural/physical event?

If we are to look upon those things that are NOT SEEN, as opposed to those things ARE SEEN, then why focus on this "outward sign" that occurred in AD70 say here is "the fulfillment" and it is "past"? That seems like a contradiction to me.  It doesn't to you?




Hi Chris, i've been thinking about your response above. 

Do you think that those who went through the destruction of Jerusalem/temple; and were "emotionally/mentally attached to that system/mindset" underwent SPIRITUAL resurrection then, resurrection in shame/condemnation?  Do you think they suffered the LOSS of their mindset system (internally) and their "internal" house came crashing down, seeing it was built on sand??   

Secondly, What does SPIRITUAL versus NATURAL mean to you??   and doLITERAL events or PHYSICAL events represent the NATURAL, even if the literal event resulted in a "change of mind"?


Offline Molly

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #507 on: October 14, 2009, 07:25:54 PM »
Quote from: Zeek
Do you think that those who went through the destruction of Jerusalem/temple; and were "emotionally/mentally attached to that system/mindset" underwent SPIRITUAL resurrection then, resurrection in shame/condemnation?  Do you think they suffered the LOSS of their mindset system (internally) and their "internal" house came crashing down, seeing it was built on sand??   

Secondly, What does SPIRITUAL versus NATURAL mean to you??   and doLITERAL events or PHYSICAL events represent the NATURAL, even if the literal event resulted in a "change of mind"?

Just exploring here.  The first man Adam was made a living soul.  Could a living soul be in some state of life after death?


10And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

--Gen 4


Of course, God could be speaking metaphorically there, except, when you read the Hebrew, it is almost graphic in its description of a voice shrieking from the ground [adamah].


Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.



The life of the flesh is in the blood.  That word, 'life,' --nephesh--also means 'soul.'  So, we could say the soul of the flesh is in the blood.

And now we begin to see the importance of the blood of Christ, if it represents his very soul.


16Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life [soul] for us..

--1 John 3:16



How, then, does this mortal [soul] put on immortality without the blood of Christ?  Does Abel have immortality, shrieking as he is from the grave?  Do those who are asleep?  Or is this state, without Christ, unclothed in glory, the very nature of death?


17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

 18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.


--Rev 3

« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 07:33:13 PM by Molly »

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #508 on: October 14, 2009, 08:24:27 PM »

Hi Chris, i've been thinking about your response above. 

Do you think that those who went through the destruction of Jerusalem/temple; and were "emotionally/mentally attached to that system/mindset" underwent SPIRITUAL resurrection then, resurrection in shame/condemnation?  Do you think they suffered the LOSS of their mindset system (internally) and their "internal" house came crashing down, seeing it was built on sand??   

I think that it depends on how you look at it.

I think they saw that which happened in the natural and it held no spiritual significance for them and resulted in no change within them. But does that mean that it was not given 'as an example' to us - or to those who would come to believe - of spiritual truths?

We know that God was in Christ reconciling THE WORLD unto himself, creating ONE NEW MAN, right? So does this mean that ALL MEN have been gathered together "in Him" (both "the living" and "the dead" - after a SPIRITUAL TRUTH?) I believe so.

We also know that Paul said: "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

But being baptized into HIS DEATH doesn't mean that one knows THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION (that is what we are to STRIVE TO KNOW, right?)

But still, Paul does indicate that HAVING BEEN "planted in the likeness of His death" we SHALL ALSO BE "in the likeness of His resurrection", right?  But when? Each in His own order, right? Because it is about Christ being formed IN US, right?

That must somehow relate to how some are resurrected TO LIFE and others TO CONDEMNATION?? It seems to me that we must have all been raised "with Him" (as we are HIS BODY) but "some are fallen asleep" (according to Paul).

When we FIRST believe, we are sealed by the holy spirit of promise (the promise OF ETERNAL LIFE, right?) and we are given "the earnest of the spirit". But we are still CHILDREN (who differ nothing from a servant - still in bondage, still in need of a schoolmaster, etc; even "babes" who are "yet carnal") and it is not until Christ is formed in us that we pass from DEATH unto LIFE and received "the adoption OF SONS" (to wit THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODIES).

I don't think that we "know" when we ARE DEAD that we "are dead", right? And if we are "dead" and "know not God" (or Jesus Christ) then how can we "feel" shame and condemnation or even the wrath of God that abides upon us?

It seems to me that it is not until we enter into THE DAY of the Lord that we can "see" THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT of God. The dead KNOW NOTHING, right?

And it seems to me that in order to enter into the LIGHT/DAY of the Lord we must pass through the fire/judgment/wrath of God as it is by the fire that we are tried; it is by fire that we are saved, as it is by the fire that all the hay, wood and stubble (that which is not fit for the kingdom of God) is burned up and our works are made manifest as to what sort they are.

Christ said: "I am come to send fire on the earth"

BUT, he said: "I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!"

Christ came ONCE in the end of the world TO DIE (as it is appointed unto men) BUT AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT!!

Do you see how judgment (BY FIRE) is connected to THE DEATH OF JESUS CHRIST (the second man / the last Adam)?

This is why I see a connection between "the death of Jesus Christ" (and our being planted in the likeness of His death, being buried with Him) and "the second death"; as it is only by being buried WITH HIM that we can know the power of HIS resurrection, right?



Secondly, What does SPIRITUAL versus NATURAL mean to you??   and doLITERAL events or PHYSICAL events represent the NATURAL, even if the literal event resulted in a "change of mind"?



I don't think "the literal event" result in a change of mind of any kind. It is the spirit that is quickened and the spirit of man is quickened by the spirit of God. I guess that could happen simultaneously with a natural/physical event, but not as a direct result of it, I don't think. (And, I think, more often than not they do not happen at the same time.)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 05:39:52 AM by Chris »

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #509 on: October 15, 2009, 04:00:17 AM »
"The body will quickly kneel, as it hears his voice."

The pitch, strength or tone of the voice is according to place, time, and participant
without substantially affecting the basic semantic content of that voice.

All you have to do, is listen! 


"I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing [in] His kingdom."

Judgment of the living is now, and the dead instantly upon death?

Thus, do we wait patiently to reach the highest point, that of a celestial reunion, which happens at the end of this life?
And can we not attain in the terrestrial, the visible as well?

"The key is in the changing of the wind; vanity to humility."

peacemaker

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #510 on: October 23, 2009, 07:13:51 PM »
"The body will quickly kneel, as it hears his voice."

The pitch, strength or tone of the voice is according to place, time, and participant
without substantially affecting the basic semantic content of that voice.

All you have to do, is listen! 


"I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing [in] His kingdom."

Judgment of the living is now, and the dead instantly upon death?

Thus, do we wait patiently to reach the highest point, that of a celestial reunion, which happens at the end of this life?
And can we not attain in the terrestrial, the visible as well?

"The key is in the changing of the wind; vanity to humility."

peacemaker


The only way He can judge the dead is to resurrect them first:
Dan 12:2 "From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion."
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #511 on: October 24, 2009, 06:58:00 AM »
"The body will quickly kneel, as it hears his voice."

The pitch, strength or tone of the voice is according to place, time, and participant
without substantially affecting the basic semantic content of that voice.

All you have to do, is listen! 


"I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing [in] His kingdom."

Judgment of the living is now, and the dead instantly upon death?

Thus, do we wait patiently to reach the highest point, that of a celestial reunion, which happens at the end of this life?
And can we not attain in the terrestrial, the visible as well?

"The key is in the changing of the wind; vanity to humility."


The only way He can judge the dead is to resurrect them first:
Dan 12:2 "From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion."

In Astronomy, would that be equal to a billion years?

Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem, will you worship the Father. (John 4:21)

But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers, will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. (John 4:23)

Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. (John 5:25)

Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, (John 5:28)
 
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Corinthians 15:52)

Now tell me, does God love to a thousand generations or does He extend it to three or four thousand generations? Does He own the cattle on a thousand hills only, or ten thousand?

It is common for many to place the emphasis on "time" before the outcome.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.  Then, I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.  And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4)

When is this "time" period to begin and end?
And is it not interesting, that this verse or passage says nothing about a physical resurrection?

But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:8-9).

Is this a contrast, as in comparing something to something else?  Or did Peter really mean to say that it would be a thousand years, after that day?

Did it take Adam a day, or 930 years (just short of a thousand) before he died?

Here is another question, think about it for a day or a thousand years, was Christ in the Grave for "three days, as in three thousand years?"

Either way you look at it brother, it's a long time!

"Let us not mock the coming that was promised in their lifetime; and ours."

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #512 on: October 26, 2009, 10:08:24 PM »
What you wrote does not refute that there must be a resurrection from the dead for the dead to be alive.

Notice in verse 25 Jesus added "and now is." It could be that "the dead" were those not literally dead as "in the tomb" but the dead who were "dead to God" and were entombing the dead wherein Jesus said "let the (figurative) dead be entombing the (literal) dead." It could be that God was about to open the hearts of those dead to Him and bring them to faith and a life pleasing to Him.

However, note in verse 28 "and now is" was not used.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that coming is an hour, and now is, when the dead shall be hearing the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear shall be living."
Joh 5:26 For even as the Father has life in Himself, thus to the Son also He gives to have life in Himself."
Joh 5:27 And He gives Him authority to do judging, seeing that He is a son of mankind."
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging."
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #513 on: October 27, 2009, 05:57:44 AM »
What you wrote does not refute that there must be a resurrection from the dead for the dead to be alive.


The only thing proven to be false or erroneous is this (above) quote of yours.

Please read this quote which is magnified:

It is common for many to place the emphasis on "time" before the "outcome."

And this one:

"Let us not mock the coming that was promised in their lifetime; and ours."

In addition review the previous posts that were made by me, as follows:

See Reply #401 on page 17, and #509 on this page.

Now, tell me, where is it that I have refuted a Resurrection of the dead in this life, or from the grave at the end of this life?

Doug

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #514 on: October 27, 2009, 06:08:22 AM »
The following is about the reformer and Martyr William Tyndale, and his views on the immortality of the soul and the resurrection, from:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/8936/SOULREFM.HTM


William Tyndale (1484-1536),
English Bible translator and Martyr

In 1530 responding to Sir Thomas More's objection to his belief that "all souls lie and sleep till doomsday" he vigorously replyed.

    "And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurection...And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be ? And then what cause is there of the resurrection ?" - William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk.4, ch.4, pp.180,181

Tyndale went to the heart of the issue in pointing out the papacy's draft upon the teachings of "heathen philosophers" in seeking to establish its contention of innante immortality. Thus

    "The true faith puteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshy doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And becuase the fleshy-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it. If the soul be in heaven, tell me what cause is there for the resurrection?" - ibid., p.180

In yet another section of the same treatise, dealing with the "invocation of saints," Tyndale uses the same reasoning, pointing out that the doctrine of departed saints being in heaven had not yet been introduced in Christ's day:

    "And when he [More] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, 'If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;' there he stealeth away Christ's argument wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints would rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect." - ibid., p.118

Tyndale presses his contention still further by showing the conflict of papal teaching with St. Paul, as he says is slightly sarcastic vein :

    " 'Nay Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again.' And I marvel that Paul had not conforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what should be of the resurrection?" - ibid. p.118


Doug

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #515 on: October 27, 2009, 06:51:46 AM »
Sweating blood, to the point of letting go of your own will that is programmed for survival by the mind; having the fear of death.

Jesus experienced hematidrosis while He was praying in the garden of Gethsemane:

And being in agony He was praying very fervently; and His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down upon the ground. (Luke 22:44)

From what I understand, blood doesn't come out of the sweat glands, but from the capillaries under the skin which burst, thus, the blood comes out of the pores, mixing with the perspiration of great distress.

In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety [devotion] (Hebrews 5:7)

And He was saying, "Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will." ( Mark 14:36)

At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" which is translated, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" (Mark 15:34)

And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last. (Luke 23:46)

My lips will shout for joy when I sing praises to You; And my soul, which You have redeemed. (Psalm 71:23)

Who redeems your life from the pit [Grave], Who crowns you with loving kindness and compassion; (Psalm 103:4)

Although All souls die for a period of time there is a Resurrection, as the Spirit itself does not die, but God will not glorify anything without perfectly uniting it; death to life.

peacemaker

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #516 on: October 28, 2009, 02:22:35 PM »
What you wrote does not refute that there must be a resurrection from the dead for the dead to be alive.


The only thing proven to be false or erroneous is this (above) quote of yours.

Please read this quote which is magnified:

It is common for many to place the emphasis on "time" before the "outcome."

And this one:

"Let us not mock the coming that was promised in their lifetime; and ours."

In addition review the previous posts that were made by me, as follows:

See Reply #401 on page 17, and #509 on this page.

Now, tell me, where is it that I have refuted a Resurrection of the dead in this life, or from the grave at the end of this life?

Dear peacemaker,
The problem I perceive you presented is this:

I wrote this:
The only way He can judge the dead is to resurrect them first:
Dan 12:2 "From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion."

Then you replied with this (I'll just copy one of the verses you posted):
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that coming is an hour, and now is, when the dead shall be hearing the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear shall be living."

I took it from that verse you brought up that you were refuting what I was trying to say. I think (and I could be wrong) you were trying to say that in Jesus' lifetime the resurrection already took place due to the "hour and now is" part? But there is the figurative dead and the literal dead as I showed before. I believe verse 25 is the figurative dead (i.e., those who formerly were dead to God by their living in accord with the flesh rather than the spirit).

But I showed that the latter dead Jesus referenced here:
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging."

Notice that "and now is" is absent from the second "coming is the hour" in verse 28. Those are the literal dead which Daniel also spoke of in Dan.12:2.

The literal dead cannot be alive until a resurrection from the literal tombs. They are not alive right now in some other form.

Jesus, while dead, did not preach to any dead humans.


Joh 5:26 For even as the Father has life in Himself, thus to the Son also He gives to have life in Himself."
Joh 5:27 And He gives Him authority to do judging, seeing that He is a son of mankind."
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #517 on: October 29, 2009, 09:21:17 AM »
The problem I perceive you presented is this:

I wrote this:
The only way He can judge the dead is to resurrect them first:
Dan 12:2 "From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion."

The only difficulty is in the literal interpretation of a thousand years. Thus again, When is this "time" of the Resurrection to begin and judgment to end for each individual?

I take it you believe that many will be repelled, like that of water with oil; standing knee deep in upbraiding judgment for literally, a thousand years?

Quote
Then you replied with this (I'll just copy one of the verses you posted):
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that coming is an hour, and now is, when the dead shall be hearing the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear shall be living."

The dead shall come to life.

Quote
I took it from that verse you brought up that you were refuting what I was trying to say. I think (and I could be wrong) you were trying to say that in Jesus' lifetime the resurrection already took place due to the "hour and now is" part?

Not prior to death.

Quote
But there is the figurative dead and the literal dead as I showed before. I believe verse 25 is the figurative dead (i.e., those who formerly were dead to God by their living in accord with the flesh rather than the spirit).

But I showed that the latter dead Jesus referenced here:
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging."

Is that a bad translation, or did you mean to say those who "did" good in contrast to those who "committed" bad things?

The dichotomy of the mind, speaks of good and evil; not perfection. Thus, are not these, those who live in "newness" of life and the dead who experience righteous judgment; both by the Spirit of Christ?

Quote
Notice that "and now is" is absent from the second "coming is the hour" in verse 28. Those are the literal dead which Daniel also spoke of in Dan.12:2.

The literal dead cannot be alive until a resurrection from the literal tombs. They are not alive right now in some other form.

Not a physical body, but One that is Spirit?

Quote
Jesus, while dead, did not preach to any dead humans.

Dead men do not talk, they do not even exchange thoughts, nor is there any knowledge. But then comes the "Resurrection of the dead."

Peter warned or advised that there would be those in his day who would mock the promise of Jesus' coming, and the mockers of his day and ours, deny his return. You may want to consider that the Lord's promise is not affected by time.




Offline Cardinal

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #518 on: October 29, 2009, 06:11:27 PM »
 :cloud9: You know, the wheat and the tares are raised up together, so none of this has missed His notice. All that is of darkness is being raised at the same time He is raising up a standard in our earth, ie. Christ in you, the hope of glory. This is what I comfort MYSELF with, as the darkness rises. Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #519 on: October 29, 2009, 10:38:08 PM »
The problem I perceive you presented is this:

Tony wrote: The only way He can judge the dead is to resurrect them first:
Dan 12:2 "From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion."

PM replied: The only difficulty is in the literal interpretation of a thousand years. Thus again, When is this "time" of the Resurrection to begin and judgment to end for each individual?

I take it you believe that many will be repelled, like that of water with oil; standing knee deep in upbraiding judgment for literally, a thousand years?

Tony's reply:
Yes, there is a literal 1000 years coming. I believe the resurrection spoken of in Daniel is most likely just prior to Christ coming back and setting up the 1000 year kingdom to come. It is then He will judge them, some to eonian life and some to eonian repulsion in which He will kick the bad out of the kingdom for 1000 years.

Quote
Tony: Then you replied with this (I'll just copy one of the verses you posted):
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that coming is an hour, and now is, when the dead shall be hearing the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear shall be living."

PM: The dead shall come to life.
Tony's reply: We both agree on that.

Quote
Tony: I took it from that verse you brought up that you were refuting what I was trying to say. I think (and I could be wrong) you were trying to say that in Jesus' lifetime the resurrection already took place due to the "hour and now is" part?

PM: Not prior to death.
Tony's reply: I agree. They must be dead first to be resurrected.


Quote
Tony: But there is the figurative dead and the literal dead as I showed before. I believe verse 25 is the figurative dead (i.e., those who formerly were dead to God by their living in accord with the flesh rather than the spirit).

But I showed that the latter dead Jesus referenced here:
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging."

PM: Is that a bad translation, or did you mean to say those who "did" good in contrast to those who "committed" bad things?
Tony's reply: I believe it is translated in the Aorist tense.

PM continueth: The dichotomy of the mind, speaks of good and evil; not perfection. Thus, are not these, those who live in "newness" of life and the dead who experience righteous judgment; both by the Spirit of Christ?

Tony's reply:
I'm sure they will be judged by the spirit coming out of His mouth, that spirit being the word which will judge them but He will be present in flesh during that time.

Quote
Tony wrote: Notice that "and now is" is absent from the second "coming is the hour" in verse 28. Those are the literal dead which Daniel also spoke of in Dan.12:2.

The literal dead cannot be alive until a resurrection from the literal tombs. They are not alive right now in some other form.

PM replied: Not a physical body, but One that is Spirit?
Tony's reply: Man is not raised from the dead as a spirit. Dead humans are not spirits. There are soulish bodies and spiritual bodies. Our present bodies are not made of soul. Our future bodies will not be made of spirit. The point being made is that our present bodies are "soulish" in that they are guided by the soul (soulish tendencies) while the future spiritual body which we will put on will be guided by the spirit (spiritual tendencies i.e. fruit of the spirit etc.) but will still have flesh and bones.

Quote
Tony wrote before: Jesus, while dead, did not preach to any dead humans.

PM replied: Dead men do not talk, they do not even exchange thoughts, nor is there any knowledge. But then comes the "Resurrection of the dead."

Peter warned or advised that there would be those in his day who would mock the promise of Jesus' coming, and the mockers of his day and ours, deny his return. You may want to consider that the Lord's promise is not affected by time.

Tony's reply:
The very fact that His return is affected by time is what gives the mocker the ability to ask "where is the promise of His return." They are not asking "when will He return" but are asking "where, in the Scriptures, is the promise of His return?" Paul divulges to the nations when he will come back and it is fully dependent upon the completion of the body of Christ believers of the nations (see Romans 11:25,26).



Peace
Tony
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #520 on: October 31, 2009, 10:00:44 AM »
I believe it is translated in the Aorist tense.

The aorist tense does not have to indicate "past" action and can be merely the expression of an action. Thus, the progressive or continuation of an action in time could be referring to the "present" tense; newness of life. Which is not yet "future" perfect.

You appear to express that which is linear, as in that of A causes B, which causes C. In logical terms, cause and effect.  However, the non-linear is that of ABC (Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent) in it's entirety with infinite possibility and without opposites; that of duality.  Language is on the linear level of understanding. You could consider the Parables of Christ as the closest approximation to the non-linear truth which really can not be expressed in words. Therefore, the revelation comes from the Spirit of that truth.

If any believe that God is all three of those mentioned above, how could they say that the Spirit is not in certain individuals? I just do not agree with any form of an us and them, mentality.

The Resurrection is of Christ the man, not a resurrection of men, as Nathan pointed to in another thread. But I would not want to be accused of teaching, so will continue to sit on the bench (making a quote or two, unless banned by the subtleness of suggestion), listening to the Spirit within, and not that of the souls of men.

Continue for a thousand years in what you believe, but as I said:

"The dichotomy of the mind, speaks of good and evil; not perfection."

Shalom  Peacemaker

Offline jabcat

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #521 on: October 31, 2009, 10:27:44 AM »
Not to look down upon;  not to see oneself as better than;  not to despise.  Rather, to love, pray for, care about, minister to.  But I believe in the following passage, for just one example, Brother Paul points out that there are differences between believers and unbelievers. 

II Cor. 6:14-18 - Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?

Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
         "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM;
         AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
         "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord.
         "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN;
         And I will welcome you.
         "And I will be a father to you,
         And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,"
         Says the Lord Almighty.

Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #522 on: October 31, 2009, 06:28:33 PM »
I just do not agree with any form of an us and them, mentality.



Hey Jer,

isn't that an interesting paradox?  By not agreeing with an "us versus them mentality", haven't you just created an "us versus them" mentality.  "Them" being those who believe in "us versus them mentality" and "us" being those who don't. 

??

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #523 on: October 31, 2009, 06:51:35 PM »
:cloud9: You know, the wheat and the tares are raised up together, so none of this has missed His notice. All that is of darkness is being raised at the same time He is raising up a standard in our earth, ie. Christ in you, the hope of glory. This is what I comfort MYSELF with, as the darkness rises. Blessings.....
Maybe as the darkness rises it forces one to take a stand, to define once and for all who you are and what you believe in a way that is not called upon in gentler times.

As the line becomes more defined for us between good and evil we must decide to choose a side.



Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #524 on: October 31, 2009, 11:16:25 PM »
I just do not agree with any form of an us and them, mentality.

Hey Jer,
isn't that an interesting paradox?  By not agreeing with an "us versus them mentality", haven't you just created an "us versus them" mentality.  "Them" being those who believe in "us versus them mentality" and "us" being those who don't. 
??

Perhaps, but in reality it expresses a possible truth. Whereas, in your circular reasoning which may be derived from an inference of induction or deduction, is merely taking from the premise to prove the conclusion; proceeding from the known "us" to the unknown "them" and/or vice versa. It is difficult to put into words, but I see things as "we" are the ones who exhibit an apparently contradictory nature. And it is not about a them. For me, the Scriptures speak of One Man; each and every one of us.

"We all have our own houses to maintain."