Author Topic: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?  (Read 40531 times)

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Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #475 on: October 13, 2009, 02:57:10 PM »

But you did say that what I believe "makes suicide a good choice", so was it not a safe bet for me to assume that you are not agreeing with what you think I believe? Certainly, if you agreed, you wouldn't be quizzing me so much about it and making statements such as these, would you?

i'm not sure if i agree with your belief, thus so many questions.  using the suicide statement, was not a reflection of my belief; but an attempt to see more of your view. 

Besides, you also told me earlier in the conversation when I gave Paul as an example of someone who experienced the wrath of God / LoF that you did NOT agree with me. Didn't you?

yes, this is true, and one area i don't agree with you.  well sort of.  I believe Paul experienced the LOF, but was protected from it, not experiencing the loss/shame that LOF is.

So if I see that the LoF already exists as a spiritual truth and that men have already been cast into it and you disagree (which, to me, you clearly do) then you've at least said enough for me to know that, even if you have not explicitly laid out what you do or do not believe. No?

I definitely do not agree with you  on this part, that we are all in the LOF now; but I respect your studies and friends that agree with you, that I am trying to understand how you came to those conclusions.

And if it doesn't exist for us now, before death, then what other choice is there but that it waits for us on the other side of it (regardless of how "long" it might last)?

no, there is still the choice that it is in the past, a done deal.  And there is no NOW lof, and no future LOF

So my question stands. If judgment (LoF) doesn't happen until after physical death (which is what you seem to believe, based on you disagreements with my statements that it is now experience) then how "long" do you believe it might last and what do you believe that to be based on?

See above

If it doesn't happen until after physical death but might only last "an instant" then what is your disagreement with me based on when you say that my believing that it doesn't "continue" postmortem "makes suicide a good option". That alone makes me believe that you believe that it does continue for some time after death and is not instantaneous. Why wouldn't it?

But let me ask you something....

Does your belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior of ALL MEN make suicide a good choice for those who might commit suicide were it not for the fear of spending eternity in hell if there is one and that is the penalty they would pay for killing themselves? Take that fear away from them and you are encouraging them to commit suicide?  I ask because I was actually told this once by someone who was depressed and suicidal. He said he didn't want to believe that God would send someone into his life with "Christ" in their name to convince him to kill himself, but he didn't want to believe that I was a devil either. And now, here, you (who also believes in UR) make a very similar accusation towards me because perhaps I don't believe the LoF "lasts long enough"??

What is the difference really? A "shorter" hell after death (as opposed to an eternal one)? What we go through and experience here being separated from the love of God whether of/in ourselves or in others (or both) isn't hell enough?  :dontknow:





I think there is a good possiblilty that  the LOF is past.  That is what I am looking at. 

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #476 on: October 13, 2009, 03:24:23 PM »
I'm at work so can't talk much, but would like to ask you what makes you think that Paul did not feel any shame for what he had done prior to his conversion? Do you get the impression that Paul was proud of himself?

And, if the LoF is past then who was the wrath of God poured out on? Doesn't it not abide on those who believe not? Do you see the LoF as a natural truth or a spiritual one?

Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #477 on: October 13, 2009, 03:35:47 PM »
I'm at work so can't talk much, but would like to ask you what makes you think that Paul did not feel any shame for what he had done prior to his conversion? Do you get the impression that Paul was proud of himself?

And, if the LoF is past then who was the wrath of God poured out on? Doesn't it not abide on those who believe not? Do you see the LoF as a natural truth or a spiritual one?

The shame is a "perpetual shame", via the wide path.

In Romans 9-11, (at work too, so don't have time to look up) it talks of those who believe on him will NOT be ashamed via the narrow path.

Rev. 2-4 talks about those who don't overcome will be  shamed, but the overcomers are clothed in his righteousness with REWARD (big paraphrase).

The LAW worketh wrath, so to me those under LAW were the one's to receive wrath (those who did not overcome).  I bellieve the LOF of past was spiritual, but that God uses natural events for huge spiritual application. 



blessings.

 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 03:39:29 PM by Zeek »

Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #478 on: October 13, 2009, 03:50:20 PM »
Here is the verse


Romans 9

33As it is written:
   "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
      and a rock that makes them fall,
   and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[m]

I believe this goes a long also with "believe on him and never die"


Just to let u know, I'm not denying a shame for Paul (i think Romans 7 outlines that) and i'm not saying their isn't a "death to life" process for believers; but there is a SECOND death, for those who don't believe; and IMO is the LOF;  They are hurt of the second death. 

 And i think Romans 1-2 makes it pretty clear who that wrath is for.  Those who TURNED the TRUTH into a LIE.  When they KNEW him and glorified him not


 

« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 04:07:19 PM by Zeek »

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #479 on: October 13, 2009, 04:17:03 PM »
To believe and never die, one must pass FROM death UNTO life. Right?

We abide IN DEATH first, don't we? We are "by nature" the children OF WRATH, aren't we?

Once we pass from death unto life - through Christ - we will never be put to shame.... and we will never die. AMEN!!!  :thumbsup:

Offline CHB

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #480 on: October 13, 2009, 04:53:36 PM »
To believe and never die, one must pass FROM death UNTO life. Right?

We abide IN DEATH first, don't we? We are "by nature" the children OF WRATH, aren't we?

Once we pass from death unto life - through Christ - we will never be put to shame.... and we will never die. AMEN!!!  :thumbsup:

Hi Chris,

Another question??  Could Jesus have been referring to a spiritual life, when he said, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"?  What I mean is, Paul said when Jesus died we died, when He was resurrected so were we. Spiritually we are sitting on the right hand of God, but actually or physically we are not. Could this have been what Jesus was talking about.

Maybe I am not getting what you are saying? Do you believe we actually go on to heaven when we die to be resurrected later, which the Baptist believe, or, is there no death or resurrection, just a transformation from this life to the next?  Thanks.  :happy3:

Hope my questions made sense.

CHB

Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #481 on: October 13, 2009, 05:11:56 PM »
But the LORD is with me like a dread champion; Therefore my persecutors will stumble and not prevail. They will be utterly ashamed, because they have failed, With an everlasting disgrace that will not be forgotten.

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #482 on: October 13, 2009, 05:38:28 PM »
But the LORD is with me like a dread champion; Therefore my persecutors will stumble and not prevail. They will be utterly ashamed, because they have failed, With an everlasting disgrace that will not be forgotten.

So they will ALWAYS be "utterly ashamed" and "disgraced"? They will NEVER get beyond it? NEVER be forgiven? For it will NEVER be forgotten?

Why take that so literally when you believe that even those who are hurt by the second death are ultimately reconciled to God? And all sin will be forgiven and forgotten for God will remember them no more?

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #483 on: October 13, 2009, 05:48:16 PM »
To believe and never die, one must pass FROM death UNTO life. Right?

We abide IN DEATH first, don't we? We are "by nature" the children OF WRATH, aren't we?

Once we pass from death unto life - through Christ - we will never be put to shame.... and we will never die. AMEN!!!  :thumbsup:

Hi Chris,

Another question??  Could Jesus have been referring to a spiritual life, when he said, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"?  What I mean is, Paul said when Jesus died we died, when He was resurrected so were we. Spiritually we are sitting on the right hand of God, but actually or physically we are not. Could this have been what Jesus was talking about.

HI CHB,

That is exactly how I see it.  :thumbsup:

Maybe I am not getting what you are saying? Do you believe we actually go on to heaven when we die to be resurrected later, which the Baptist believe, or, is there no death or resurrection, just a transformation from this life to the next?  Thanks.  :happy3:

Hope my questions made sense.

CHB

I would not say "there is no resurrection"; I simply  see "the resurrection of the dead" as a spiritual truth, rather than a natural one. I do not believe it has anything to do with our physical death.

As you say (and I agree) we are already resurrected with Christ, though some "sleep" not knowing the power of His resurrection.

I believe that we ultimately put away this body of flesh, retaining only that which is eternal, that spiritual/celestial body that is one with the head (Christ) and one with God (the head of Christ).

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #484 on: October 13, 2009, 06:05:22 PM »
But the LORD is with me like a dread champion; Therefore my persecutors will stumble and not prevail. They will be utterly ashamed, because they have failed, With an everlasting disgrace that will not be forgotten.

Yes.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Our God is a God of justice, is he not?  He is also a God of grace.

So we see everlasting life versus everlasting contempt here.

That word is olam.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #485 on: October 13, 2009, 07:26:06 PM »
Chris... just a few quick questions..
what do you think the lake of fire is?
What do you think it's purpose is?
What do you think judgment is/it's purpose?
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #486 on: October 13, 2009, 07:59:18 PM »
But the LORD is with me like a dread champion; Therefore my persecutors will stumble and not prevail. They will be utterly ashamed, because they have failed, With an everlasting disgrace that will not be forgotten.

So they will ALWAYS be "utterly ashamed" and "disgraced"? They will NEVER get beyond it? NEVER be forgiven? For it will NEVER be forgotten?

Why take that so literally when you believe that even those who are hurt by the second death are ultimately reconciled to God? And all sin will be forgiven and forgotten for God will remember them no more?

Because that's what the word says.  Never be forgotten.   

But, I do think this is talking about during the "ages" or until the end of ages.  ie: never forgotten as long as ages are concerned.  I believe it has nothing to do with post mortem.  (need to be at home to let you know why i think this, don't have the translations present at work)

here is an interesting article

http://www.pantelism.com/ResurrectionofCondemnation.htm



 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 08:03:20 PM by Zeek »

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #487 on: October 13, 2009, 09:38:03 PM »
Chris... just a few quick questions..
what do you think the lake of fire is?
What do you think it's purpose is?
What do you think judgment is/it's purpose?


Hi Sparrow, not sure I can give you a quick or easy answer, but I will try.

The only place that we see "the lake of fire" is in Rev 19 and 20. Most people say that the lake of fire is the second death. I don't quite see it that way. It doesn't seem to me as if it is "the lake of fire" (itself) that is called "the second death". As I read the passage, I understand it to say that it is being cast INTO the lake of fire that is "the second death". And who is it that is cast into the lake of fire? We have "the beast" and "the false prophet", right? And then we have "the devil" cast into it as well, right? What do the beast, the false prophet and the devil all have in common? And what do the three of them have in common with "the sons of men" (or the carnally minded)?

It seems to me that the purpose of the lake of fire is to consume that which is not fit for the kingdom of God, or "the natural man" (the first man / the outward man / the carnally minded man), that which is subject to this world and the things of this world, even the lust of the flesh, etc. Its purpose it to burn up all that "hay, wood and stubble" so that all that remains is the "gold, silver and precious stone" that is built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ. Yet even gold is tried in the fire, right?  So why should we assume that "this fiery trial which is to try you" of which Paul spoke is any other fire than "the lake of fire" into which the beast, the false prophet and the devil are cast? I see them as the same fire. I don't see one being applicable to believers and other to unbelievers.

I do not see the lake of fire as literal or physical punishment/torment but the working of God within us to burn up that which is not fit for the kingdom of God. We all died "in Adam" but we are "resurrected from the dead" by being buried (and raised) "in Christ". And Paul said HAVING BEEN buried with Christ  - being baptized into HIS DEATH – we shall also know the power of HIS LIFE – through the resurrection of the dead.

Paul said "ye are dead" but we not only died "in Adam" we have been buried with Christ, having been baptized in Jesus Christ – into His death. And our life is HID with Christ in God and when He (who is our life) appears (CHRIST IN YOU) then we shall APPEAR WITH HIM in glory (THE HOPE OF GLORY).

In the OT we read:

Psa 57:4 My soul is among lions: and I lie even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword

The way of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise, that he may depart from HELL BENEATH!! (Pro 15:24)

The more I studied the more I came to see this division in the scriptures between that which is "above" and that which is "beneath", between "the sons of God" and "the sons of men", between "the heavens" and "the earth", between "life" and "death", "bodies celestial" and "bodies terrestrial", that which is "not of this world" and that which is "of this world", between "the inward man" and "the outward man", the LAST ADAM/MAN and the FIRST ADAM/MAN.

First then natural, then the spiritual. Right?

Scripture says that "the second man" ~IS~ THE LORD FROM HEAVEN. That, to me, is not just speaking about Jesus Christ. We are His body! Amen? Paul is comparing the natural/earthy to the spiritual/heavenly. He makes no distinction between "the head" and "the body"… "the second man" IS "the Lord from heaven".

We have all been baptized by ONE SPIRIT, into ONE BODY (the body OF JESUS CHRIST). He is "the perfect man"; the head that we (the body) need to grow up into until we all come to unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God… unto the measure of the stature of the fullness OF CHRIST.  Amen?

As I see it right now, the second death is connected to the death (and resurrection) of THE SECOND MAN – it's being baptized into HIS death and ""dying" WITH HIM (just as we "died" IN ADAM first. But by being found "in Christ" and being baptized into HIS DEATH, we can also know the power of HIS RESURRECTION, as death has no power over Him. He has the keys of both death and hell.

Christ came ONCE in the end of the world TO DIE ((as it is appointed unto men)) but AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT.

So many quote this verse as if it applies to the death of "men", though it speaks specifically about the death OF JESUS CHRIST.

It is not until we "die in the Lord" that we can know the power of His resurrection (and LIFE) as it is only through Him that life and immortality come. Amen?

Two men… two Adams …. two deaths …. (that we have all been baptized into)

Just as "in Adam" all died… even so "in Christ" (by being baptized into HIS DEATH) shall all be made alive.

As I see it, we all have to go through "the second death" in order to attain unto "the resurrection of the dead" and know LIFE.

Well, I didn't intend to say so much when I started typing, so I hope I didn't go off on too may tangents in trying to answer your questions. I just see judgment and the lake of fire (second death) in relation to the death of 'the second man' (the last Adam) "in" whom we are all found and "through" whom life and immortality come.

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #488 on: October 13, 2009, 09:47:02 PM »
But the LORD is with me like a dread champion; Therefore my persecutors will stumble and not prevail. They will be utterly ashamed, because they have failed, With an everlasting disgrace that will not be forgotten.

So they will ALWAYS be "utterly ashamed" and "disgraced"? They will NEVER get beyond it? NEVER be forgiven? For it will NEVER be forgotten?

Why take that so literally when you believe that even those who are hurt by the second death are ultimately reconciled to God? And all sin will be forgiven and forgotten for God will remember them no more?

Because that's what the word says.  Never be forgotten.   

But, I do think this is talking about during the "ages" or until the end of ages.  ie: never forgotten as long as ages are concerned.  I believe it has nothing to do with post mortem.  (need to be at home to let you know why i think this, don't have the translations present at work)

here is an interesting article

http://www.pantelism.com/ResurrectionofCondemnation.htm



 

Yes, that's what it says. Who does it apply to and why?



Offline CHB

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #489 on: October 13, 2009, 10:10:46 PM »
Thanks for your answer Chris and what you said to sparrow makes sense too.

CHB

Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #490 on: October 13, 2009, 10:41:09 PM »
But the LORD is with me like a dread champion; Therefore my persecutors will stumble and not prevail. They will be utterly ashamed, because they have failed, With an everlasting disgrace that will not be forgotten.

So they will ALWAYS be "utterly ashamed" and "disgraced"? They will NEVER get beyond it? NEVER be forgiven? For it will NEVER be forgotten?

Why take that so literally when you believe that even those who are hurt by the second death are ultimately reconciled to God? And all sin will be forgiven and forgotten for God will remember them no more?

Because that's what the word says.  Never be forgotten.   

But, I do think this is talking about during the "ages" or until the end of ages.  ie: never forgotten as long as ages are concerned.  I believe it has nothing to do with post mortem.  (need to be at home to let you know why i think this, don't have the translations present at work)

here is an interesting article

http://www.pantelism.com/ResurrectionofCondemnation.htm



 

Yes, that's what it says. Who does it apply to and why?




Romans 1-2, Hebrews 6, 10 and 12. 

Jude 1, those twice dead.

     
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 10:47:20 PM by Zeek »

Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #491 on: October 13, 2009, 10:59:32 PM »

7:11 For sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it I died.

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

a shame that won't be forgotten

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #492 on: October 14, 2009, 12:00:32 AM »

here is an interesting article

http://www.pantelism.com/ResurrectionofCondemnation.htm

 

This website actually says many of the same things that I have said and many more things that I have not, but that I also believe. One of the problems that stand out to me, though, is the fact that they seem to tie everything to AD70.

IF "the resurrection" is spiritual and not physical (which I agree with) then why do they tie "the second coming" and "judgment" and "the resurrection of the dead" to a physical event that took place in AD70?

Why claim it's NOT physical, but spiritual, and then turn around and connect it to a physical event with a natural, worldly, physical fulfillment?

On one page I read:

"What has been touted as the rapture has been ruptured, for it was in fact the resurrection, and this all occurred in the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem which was the outward sign of end of the old covenant Mosaic age."

Now, I think I can agree with that; with the destruction of Jerusalem being an outward sign (or figure) of the end of the old covenant. But if the destruction of the city of Jerusalem was "an outward sign" then how and when is the destruction of Jerusalem (under the OC/LAW) fulfilled SPIRITUALLY?

To their credit, this website even points out the fact that Paul spoke of these things in "the present tense". And while I have pointed out the same thing many times myself to those who claim that these things are still "yet future", are we to assume that because Paul spoke of these things in the present tense so long ago that these things are now "past" and, therefore, not applicable to us today, all having their fulfillment in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 – a natural/physical event?

If we are to look upon those things that are NOT SEEN, as opposed to those things ARE SEEN, then why focus on this "outward sign" that occurred in AD70 say here is "the fulfillment" and it is "past"? That seems like a contradiction to me.  It doesn't to you?



Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #493 on: October 14, 2009, 12:01:26 AM »
But the LORD is with me like a dread champion; Therefore my persecutors will stumble and not prevail. They will be utterly ashamed, because they have failed, With an everlasting disgrace that will not be forgotten.

So they will ALWAYS be "utterly ashamed" and "disgraced"? They will NEVER get beyond it? NEVER be forgiven? For it will NEVER be forgotten?

Why take that so literally when you believe that even those who are hurt by the second death are ultimately reconciled to God? And all sin will be forgiven and forgotten for God will remember them no more?

Because that's what the word says.  Never be forgotten.   

But, I do think this is talking about during the "ages" or until the end of ages.  ie: never forgotten as long as ages are concerned.  I believe it has nothing to do with post mortem.  (need to be at home to let you know why i think this, don't have the translations present at work)

here is an interesting article

http://www.pantelism.com/ResurrectionofCondemnation.htm



 

Yes, that's what it says. Who does it apply to and why?




Romans 1-2, Hebrews 6, 10 and 12. 

Jude 1, those twice dead.

     


How is one "twice dead"?


Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #494 on: October 14, 2009, 12:08:24 AM »
But the LORD is with me like a dread champion; Therefore my persecutors will stumble and not prevail. They will be utterly ashamed, because they have failed, With an everlasting disgrace that will not be forgotten.

So they will ALWAYS be "utterly ashamed" and "disgraced"? They will NEVER get beyond it? NEVER be forgiven? For it will NEVER be forgotten?

Why take that so literally when you believe that even those who are hurt by the second death are ultimately reconciled to God? And all sin will be forgiven and forgotten for God will remember them no more?

Because that's what the word says.  Never be forgotten.   

But, I do think this is talking about during the "ages" or until the end of ages.  ie: never forgotten as long as ages are concerned.  I believe it has nothing to do with post mortem.  (need to be at home to let you know why i think this, don't have the translations present at work)

here is an interesting article

http://www.pantelism.com/ResurrectionofCondemnation.htm



 

Yes, that's what it says. Who does it apply to and why?




Romans 1-2, Hebrews 6, 10 and 12. 

Jude 1, those twice dead.

     


How is one "twice dead"?



via second death

Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #495 on: October 14, 2009, 12:11:00 AM »

here is an interesting article

http://www.pantelism.com/ResurrectionofCondemnation.htm

 

This website actually says many of the same things that I have said and many more things that I have not, but that I also believe. One of the problems that stand out to me, though, is the fact that they seem to tie everything to AD70.

IF "the resurrection" is spiritual and not physical (which I agree with) then why do they tie "the second coming" and "judgment" and "the resurrection of the dead" to a physical event that took place in AD70?

Why claim it's NOT physical, but spiritual, and then turn around and connect it to a physical event with a natural, worldly, physical fulfillment?

On one page I read:

"What has been touted as the rapture has been ruptured, for it was in fact the resurrection, and this all occurred in the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem which was the outward sign of end of the old covenant Mosaic age."

Now, I think I can agree with that; with the destruction of Jerusalem being an outward sign (or figure) of the end of the old covenant. But if the destruction of the city of Jerusalem was "an outward sign" then how and when is the destruction of Jerusalem (under the OC/LAW) fulfilled SPIRITUALLY?

To their credit, this website even points out the fact that Paul spoke of these things in "the present tense". And while I have pointed out the same thing many times myself to those who claim that these things are still "yet future", are we to assume that because Paul spoke of these things in the present tense so long ago that these things are now "past" and, therefore, not applicable to us today, all having their fulfillment in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 – a natural/physical event?

If we are to look upon those things that are NOT SEEN, as opposed to those things ARE SEEN, then why focus on this "outward sign" that occurred in AD70 say here is "the fulfillment" and it is "past"? That seems like a contradiction to me.  It doesn't to you?




for me, literal events have huge spiritual implications.  Through the use of literal events, the internal is affected. 

Something physical doesn't have to mean it's not spiritual.

do you see "first the natural" to mean physical/literal events?? 






Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #496 on: October 14, 2009, 01:59:54 AM »
But the LORD is with me like a dread champion; Therefore my persecutors will stumble and not prevail. They will be utterly ashamed, because they have failed, With an everlasting disgrace that will not be forgotten.

So they will ALWAYS be "utterly ashamed" and "disgraced"? They will NEVER get beyond it? NEVER be forgiven? For it will NEVER be forgotten?

Why take that so literally when you believe that even those who are hurt by the second death are ultimately reconciled to God? And all sin will be forgiven and forgotten for God will remember them no more?

Because that's what the word says.  Never be forgotten.   

But, I do think this is talking about during the "ages" or until the end of ages.  ie: never forgotten as long as ages are concerned.  I believe it has nothing to do with post mortem.  (need to be at home to let you know why i think this, don't have the translations present at work)

here is an interesting article

http://www.pantelism.com/ResurrectionofCondemnation.htm



 

Yes, that's what it says. Who does it apply to and why?




Romans 1-2, Hebrews 6, 10 and 12. 

Jude 1, those twice dead.

     


How is one "twice dead"?



via second death

Which is "the lake of fire" (or being cast into the lake of fire, as I understand it), right?

So then how is one who IS dead (IN SIN - being found "in Adam") cast into "the second death" (lake of fire) resurrected from the dead?


Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #497 on: October 14, 2009, 02:16:12 AM »

here is an interesting article

http://www.pantelism.com/ResurrectionofCondemnation.htm

 

This website actually says many of the same things that I have said and many more things that I have not, but that I also believe. One of the problems that stand out to me, though, is the fact that they seem to tie everything to AD70.

IF "the resurrection" is spiritual and not physical (which I agree with) then why do they tie "the second coming" and "judgment" and "the resurrection of the dead" to a physical event that took place in AD70?

Why claim it's NOT physical, but spiritual, and then turn around and connect it to a physical event with a natural, worldly, physical fulfillment?

On one page I read:

"What has been touted as the rapture has been ruptured, for it was in fact the resurrection, and this all occurred in the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem which was the outward sign of end of the old covenant Mosaic age."

Now, I think I can agree with that; with the destruction of Jerusalem being an outward sign (or figure) of the end of the old covenant. But if the destruction of the city of Jerusalem was "an outward sign" then how and when is the destruction of Jerusalem (under the OC/LAW) fulfilled SPIRITUALLY?

To their credit, this website even points out the fact that Paul spoke of these things in "the present tense". And while I have pointed out the same thing many times myself to those who claim that these things are still "yet future", are we to assume that because Paul spoke of these things in the present tense so long ago that these things are now "past" and, therefore, not applicable to us today, all having their fulfillment in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 – a natural/physical event?

If we are to look upon those things that are NOT SEEN, as opposed to those things ARE SEEN, then why focus on this "outward sign" that occurred in AD70 say here is "the fulfillment" and it is "past"? That seems like a contradiction to me.  It doesn't to you?




for me, literal events have huge spiritual implications.  Through the use of literal events, the internal is affected. 

Something physical doesn't have to mean it's not spiritual.

do you see "first the natural" to mean physical/literal events?? 




Then why focus on the shadow (the natural figure/type - that is SEEN) and call it (in this case, the LoF) "past" because "the type" (if it is) happened in AD70?

No, I don't necessarily see the natural fulfillment coming before the spiritual fulfillment can be applied.... I just think that it is through that which is seen (the natural) that that which is not seen (the spiritual) is clearly made manifest.

For example, Christ is called "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Now you could say that this just means that it was known from the foundation of the world that Christ would be slain (after a carnal truth) "in the end of the world".

But if Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever and God is the God OF THE LIVING and God himself said: "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" then why claim that those who lived "before the cross" did not know or have LIFE through the Lamb that was slain for them as well? Being sons of God and children OF THE RESURRECTION?

Was it necessary for Christ to be slain in the physical world for us to "crucify" Him and be buried with Him so that we could be resurrected with Him? Especially if these are spiritual truths and not natural/carnal ones that we (even post cross) see, understand or fulfill physically? (Though these spiritual truths are made manifest through that which was accomplished through the cross of Christ in this physical world - both death and resurrection - in a way that could be "seen"?)

Didn't Abraham walk by faith and didn't Abraham "see" the day of the Lord (from the other side of the cross) and rejoice?

To me, the fact that Christ is "the firstfruits of them that slept" isn't to (necessarily) say that no one before the cross had eternal life. It is to say that HE IS that life that lighteth every man that cometh into the world and it is only THROUGH HIM (Christ IN YOU) that one can pass from death unto life.

Why wouldn't they (like we) HAVE this treasure in earthen vessels?

(Though I am not settled on the matter, I sure find myself asking the questions.   :dontknow:)

Offline jabcat

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #498 on: October 14, 2009, 02:29:10 AM »
Sorry, little comment from the peanut gallery.  But it actually fits the thread OP.

Admittedly, I really don't fully understand Old Covenant salvation.  But didn't Jesus "have to" go to those disobedient prior to the cross and redeem them/lead captivity captive?  I.e., they didn't "automatically" receive redemption.  I believe He went, proclaimed, and released them.  My  :2c:.

OK, I'm back out.  Just a quick observation.  :bigGrin:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #499 on: October 14, 2009, 03:22:02 AM »

here is an interesting article

http://www.pantelism.com/ResurrectionofCondemnation.htm

 

This website actually says many of the same things that I have said and many more things that I have not, but that I also believe. One of the problems that stand out to me, though, is the fact that they seem to tie everything to AD70.

IF "the resurrection" is spiritual and not physical (which I agree with) then why do they tie "the second coming" and "judgment" and "the resurrection of the dead" to a physical event that took place in AD70?

Why claim it's NOT physical, but spiritual, and then turn around and connect it to a physical event with a natural, worldly, physical fulfillment?

On one page I read:

"What has been touted as the rapture has been ruptured, for it was in fact the resurrection, and this all occurred in the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem which was the outward sign of end of the old covenant Mosaic age."

Now, I think I can agree with that; with the destruction of Jerusalem being an outward sign (or figure) of the end of the old covenant. But if the destruction of the city of Jerusalem was "an outward sign" then how and when is the destruction of Jerusalem (under the OC/LAW) fulfilled SPIRITUALLY?

To their credit, this website even points out the fact that Paul spoke of these things in "the present tense". And while I have pointed out the same thing many times myself to those who claim that these things are still "yet future", are we to assume that because Paul spoke of these things in the present tense so long ago that these things are now "past" and, therefore, not applicable to us today, all having their fulfillment in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 – a natural/physical event?

If we are to look upon those things that are NOT SEEN, as opposed to those things ARE SEEN, then why focus on this "outward sign" that occurred in AD70 say here is "the fulfillment" and it is "past"? That seems like a contradiction to me.  It doesn't to you?




for me, literal events have huge spiritual implications.  Through the use of literal events, the internal is affected. 

Something physical doesn't have to mean it's not spiritual.

do you see "first the natural" to mean physical/literal events?? 




Then why focus on the shadow (the natural figure/type - that is SEEN) and call it (in this case, the LoF) "past" because "the type" (if it is) happened in AD70?

No, I don't necessarily see the natural fulfillment coming before the spiritual fulfillment can be applied.... I just think that it is through that which is seen (the natural) that that which is not seen (the spiritual) is clearly made manifest.

For example, Christ is called "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Now you could say that this just means that it was known from the foundation of the world that Christ would be slain (after a carnal truth) "in the end of the world".

But if Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever and God is the God OF THE LIVING and God himself said: "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" then why claim that those who lived "before the cross" did not know or have LIFE through the Lamb that was slain for them as well? Being sons of God and children OF THE RESURRECTION?

Was it necessary for Christ to be slain in the physical world for us to "crucify" Him and be buried with Him so that we could be resurrected with Him? Especially if these are spiritual truths and not natural/carnal ones that we (even post cross) see, understand or fulfill physically? (Though these spiritual truths are made manifest through that which was accomplished through the cross of Christ in this physical world - both death and resurrection - in a way that could be "seen"?)

Didn't Abraham walk by faith and didn't Abraham "see" the day of the Lord (from the other side of the cross) and rejoice?

To me, the fact that Christ is "the firstfruits of them that slept" isn't to (necessarily) say that no one before the cross had eternal life. It is to say that HE IS that life that lighteth every man that cometh into the world and it is only THROUGH HIM (Christ IN YOU) that one can pass from death unto life.

Why wouldn't they (like we) HAVE this treasure in earthen vessels?

(Though I am not settled on the matter, I sure find myself asking the questions.   :dontknow:)

You have some valid questions Chris, that i'm not sure I can tie in or respond to them at this time with a "solid" belief;  I'll post your questions on the forum where that "author" participates and see if anyone responds.  The link is here if interested:

http://www.talk-grace.com/showthread.php?p=19060#post19060