Author Topic: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?  (Read 40012 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Chris

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #450 on: October 13, 2009, 04:32:18 AM »
ok. 

Am i correct in my understanding of your belief; that if one literally dies without faith in Christ, that there is no more judgment for that person post mortem?



Yes, as I said already, I do not believe that one dies to face judgment but that NOW is the judgment of world, that NOW the wrath of God does abide on those who believe not the Son. We either know God and have life or we know not God and abide in death. I see these things pertaining to those who are in this world, not to those who have already passed through it. 

Offline rosered

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2994
  • Gender: Female
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #451 on: October 13, 2009, 04:32:44 AM »

Oh, i have a hard time asking my questions in a way that you understand where i am coming from.   hmm


I'll try again, when does one who in this "literal life" did not believe in HIM, and KNOW HIM; bow and confess Jessus Christ is Lord?? 

I assumed u thot the LOF was the process for a person to come to this "bowing"? 

How does one bow and confess "Jesus Christ is Lord" if they do not know Him?

Even if the LoF is the process by/through which we come to know Christ as Lord (and I do believe that it is) we have to pass through the fire first, don't we? Or do you believe that we bow and confess Christ as Lord WHILE we "believe not the Son" (as that is upon whom the wrath of God abides)? How is that possible?



OK, i just wish you would answer a question without a question.   :)


It wasn't a yes or no question. You were asking me for an example of something that I never said and for which I can't even imagine there is an example. How else could I answered it, except to tell you that I don't have one and to ask you if you know of one?

Ok.  I just am having a hard time seeing how one is "purged" if he literally dies, without faith.  This happens all the time. 

Yet you say u don't think LOF continues beyond "literal life", so the only thing I can think of that stopped the fire; is literal death.  Which if what i perceive of your belief (which is a perception, and likely not what u r saying) is that you mix physical (literal death) with spiritual. 

suicide seems like a good option, with what I percieve you to believe.



Well, I don't feel like I am "mixing" them, but "dividing" between them. It is not the pattern/figure/shadow/type (that which is seen, whatever one might call it) that I am concerned with. It is that which is not seen (to which these things point/reveal) that I am trying to focus on, since this is what we are told we should be focusing on.

Neither do I go around telling people to just kill themselves, as this would be "a good option".  :sigh:

Though I believe, just as Paul did, that to die would be "gain" and "far better". And, as for me, I am quite ready to go whenever my time comes - even hoping (sometimes) that my time come SOONER rather than later.  :winkgrin:


 me too Chris  :HeartThrob: always be ready and waiting  :winkgrin:     clothed in white over nakedness is preferred  

   :girlheart:   in love rose  :HeartThrob:

Gilbert

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #452 on: October 13, 2009, 04:34:38 AM »
Thanks for your post to me earlier, Chris.  Sometimes it is hard to reconcile/understand our perceived inconsistencies.  I do think they're perceived - a glass darkly.

I'm not Gilbert, and he can answer for himself as to what he was referencing.  I did find these two passages that may be related.

"As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: 'I WILL GIVE YOU THE HOLY and SURE blessings OF DAVID.'

"Therefore He also says in another Psalm, 'YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.' Acts 13:34,35

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
      If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.  I Cor. 15

God's blessing, James.

Hi James, thanks. Still not sure I see those same connections in these passages, so I will wait for Gilbert to direct me elsewhere if he has something else in mind. But, in the meantime, let me ask you about how you see the verses above, if you don't mind?

In the passages in 1 Cor 15 it speaks of the last Adam as "a life-giving spirit". What does that mean to you and how do you see that in relation to "a spiritual body"? Do you see "a spiritual body" as "a body of flesh and bones"? Do you believe that, even today, Christ has "a body of flesh and bones"?

Or might it be that that which is seen (Christ's physical death and bodily resurrection) is given to us "for an example" so that we can "see" that which is not seen... in the same way that Christ's miracle, though physical in nature, were meant to show us spiritual truths about how Christ heals the blind, the deaf, the lame and even the dead - after a spiritual truth?




If you don't mind, I would like to jump in with some additional comments concerning the spiritual body.

The Bible teaches us that there is a process of complete transformation which man must undergo in order to attain spiritual maturity (aka: 'perfection'). We can read about it in that well-known text in 2Cor 5:17, "Therefore if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation, the old has passed away, behold the new has come".
In chapter 3 verse 18 the Apostle used the basic word 'metamorphosis': "And we all with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit". This verse refers to a transformation which ongoing; not yet complete.

The transformation first begins by a change in our way of thinking, Paul also used the word 'metamorphosis' in Rom 12:2, "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind". The third occasion we encounter this word in the New Testament is in Matt 17:2 & Mark 9:2 where we read the account of the transfiguration of Jesus in the presence of His disciples. Here the word refers to a change from His natural form to His supernatural or heavenly form; the distinguishing feature here being the 'glistening attire'.

The spirit has two purposes: first, to form and develop the physical man and, secondly, to form and develop the spiritual man. The physical development comes first and then the spiritual, (1Cor 15:46).

We all possess the possibility within ourselves to undergo a metamorphosis from a physical to a spiritual being. Our spirit is the bearer of life and our soul has the characteristics which make us human. Spirit and soul together form our spiritual, invisible body.

It is not the visible or physical human being that is able to undergo a metamorphosis, but rather the invisible, inner man, with his spiritual and immortal body. The physical human has a normal, mortal body. We therefore have two bodies. "If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body", (1Cor 15:44).

In 2Corinthians 5:1, the Apostle states that on death the Christian leaves his mortal body, his earthly tent, behind. However, he still has his immortal body, his eternal, spiritual house. Thus, we understand why 2Cor 4:7 states that we have this treasure in an earthen vessel.

The physical body is material but the spiritual body is not material. The first is temporary and transitory and the other is eternal and imperishable. One is formed by the elements of the earth, while the other by the elements of heaven.

In the first phase of life, the spiritual body develops parallel to the physical body. The older a person becomes the more responsibility he can shoulder, the more stamina he has, the more knowledge and wisdom he possesses and the more his creative abilities in art and technical skills are developed. These are earthly things connected with the spiritual body and, in this way, the human grows "under the sun".

This does not always develop perfectly and harmoniously because no one can fully escape the influence of the prince of this world. All people have walked "following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit which is now at work in the sons of disobedience", (Eph 2:2). They have become useless, unable to enter a new phase of life or to undergo a metamorphosis by which they would be able to raise themselves into the dimension of God's Kingdom.

There is also a veil over everyone which can only be removed when they turn to the Lord (2Cor 3:16-18). By nature we are children of wrath because of our development in our earthly, natural life. A veil of deceit and sin is over us and we are spiritually blinded and deafened by the god of this world. We cannot see the glory of God and do not experience the inner metamorphosis by which we can grow to be mature, spiritual people.

God once tried to teach Adam to become a mature, spiritual person so that eventually his physical body could be changed in a moment of time, at an opportune moment, and swallowed up by his spiritual body. This is what is said will happen to the sons of God who in the end time have reached perfection, (1Cor 15:51-54). Adam's development came to a halt at his fall; he became useless.

In the Old Testament there were no spiritual people as God had originally desired and so the spiritual body could not develop to enable it to enter the Kingdom of God. Under the New Covenant there is a possibility for the spiritual body to undergo a metamorphosis, whereby man is enabled to live in a new dimension - just like the caterpillar when it becomes a butterfly.

The Bible calls the first period of the spiritual body a 'worm' condition. Of course, the Bible is not referring here to a garden worm: the Greek word used here can also mean maggots or larva and these are forms of life which can undergo a metamorphosis. The worm does not stop existing. The worm does not die because it belongs to the spiritual world "where their worm does not die", (Mark 9:48).

In Isaiah 41:14 we read about the "worm Jacob" and in Job 25:6 Bilead calls man a maggot and the son of a man a worm. Under the Old Covenant the chosen ones were not spiritual beings. The very best of them were natural, unspoiled people. The righteous people gained a special place in the Kingdom of Death but their inner spiritual man was not transferred into the Kingdom of God.

Even though they had the divine Law, they could not reach perfection because they lived under a veil. "Yes, to this day, whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their mind". They, therefore, have no insight into or knowledge of the unseen world. The best of them just saw a glimpse of it. These believers received a word from God because they had glimpsed the Kingdom of Heaven. They had merely caught a glimpse of the promise. Abraham saw from far off his spiritual son and he was glad.

Therefore, we now recognize how Jesus again became a worm on the cross. He was not there as a mature, spiritual man, (Psalm 22:2). He had cast off his glory as a spiritual man and had become as a natural man, burdened with sin and guilt.

In the last verse of Isaiah we read the following about the rebellious and godless people, "their worm shall not die, their fires shall not be quenched and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh". Jesus quoted this verse in Mark 9:43-48 and He referred to people who prefer darkness to light, that is, He referred to the unrighteous and godless people. The larva of their spiritual body which has not undergone a metamorphosis will, at the Second Resurrection, be thrown into the Lake of Fire. In Revelation 20:15 we read about this: "and if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he (as the larva of the spiritual) was thrown into the lake of fire".

In Matthew 10:28 Jesus warns "Do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul, rather fear him, the evil one, who can destroy both soul and body in Hell". So keep your distance from the evil one who is able to ruin your body by death, by delivering you into the lawless power of death, through which the body reverts to lifeless dust. Fellowship with this enemy is also able to drag your spiritual body, the larva, into the fire, that is into the power of darkness. You must keep your spiritual body in contact with the Holy Spirit and not with unclean spirits.

There is, therefore, a possibility for the larva to undergo a metamorphosis. The Bible says that we must put off the old nature and put on the new. The word 'metamorphosis' is concerned with the law of creation of the Supreme Being. Another illustration is that of rebirth. At birth the child already exists but enters a new phase of life - out of the darkness of the womb into the light. This is the same with the rebirth. The inner man is already in existence but he enters a totally different phase in his fife. The words 'metamorphosis', 'resurrection' and 'rebirth' all refer to a new phase of development in life.

In Isaiah 41 God talks to the "worm Jacob", the people of God who are on the point of undergoing a great change. Then the Lord says, "You are my servant. I have chosen you and not cast you off; fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you. I will help you, I will uphold you with my victorious right hand"; that is, with my Spirit. The powers of darkness always want to hold back this development and that is why we read "Behold all who are incensed against you shall be put to shame and confounded".

God helps the worm Jacob in the metamorphosis to become a spiritual Israel. How does He do this? First of all through Christ, through His gospel, the veil is removed. The falsehood and deceit are replaced by truth; the guilt disappears through the expiation of our sins. Therefore we read that they have conquered the Evil One through the expiation -by the blood of the Lamb- and by truth -the word of their testimony- (Rev 12:11).

First there must be a conversion, a turning away from evil to good, and then a definite turn towards God. For those who accept Jesus' offer to become righteous, keep His word and keep on believing, a new life begins. For only a righteous person can enter the Kingdom of God, and then only through Christ.

The caterpillar becomes a butterfly and the larva becomes a melolontha. They start a new life in a new world. After this metamorphosis has taken place, it has new aims and interests. The Bible says that after we have come to know Christ we also become quite different. The veil is removed and the darkness is left behind; different food is eaten.

The more we keep to the truth, the more the veil disappears. The cloud is removed from the mind and the Christian receives enlightenment for the eyes of the heart. The heart is an organ in the spiritual body and has ears to hear what is said by the Spirit who teaches and helps by developing the spiritual talents and who supports the human spirit so that it can reach full maturity. Thus the divine nature is revealed in the precious fruit of the Holy Spirit.

The air is the domain of the butterfly. Even if it lands on a flower it still remains a butterfly. This 'landing' often makes the life of the spiritual person difficult because he then comes into the domain of the prince of this world, while his true domain has become the Kingdom of God. That is why Paul said, "to be with Christ is far better", (Philippians 1:23), which means to be solely in the Kingdom of God.

Our works on earth form the garments for our spiritual body. We do not want to be found naked but clothed. We, therefore, pursue not only the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit but also the good works which are the outworking of the gifts and fruits of the Spirit in the visible world.

A butterfly will never return to being a caterpillar. We lay aside the first stage of our life, just as a caterpillar leaves its cocoon. Then, as our spiritual body continues to develop in God's Kingdom, we grow from a child into a son, from a son into a father and thus reach perfection and maturity.

Then the moment arrives where death will be swallowed up in victory, (1Cor 15:54). In a moment of time the mortal will put on immortality; the physical will become spiritual, full of spiritual power. The spiritual body will rule over the dust of the earth, in the same way as when the Creator, merely by His Word, ordered the dust to become matter. When we too, with our glorified body, will be able to command the dust to take on a form or to decompose. We will have a body just like the Lord after the Resurrection when He could eat and drink with His spiritual body but could also withdraw completely into the unseen world.

Those who see the possibilities open to man once he has undergone such a metamorphosis are no longer able to look back to the past but become more and more drawn to "no eye has seen and no ear has heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love Him", (1Cor 2:9).

"Therefore if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation, the old has passed a way behold the new has come" (2Cor 5:17). "And we all with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord are being changed into His likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the lord who is spirit" (2Cor 3:18).

(Some above portions were copied/pasted from content hosted at "stolen spirit" to save me time)

Chris

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #453 on: October 13, 2009, 04:34:56 AM »
ok. 

Am i correct in my understanding of your belief; that if one literally dies without faith in Christ, that there is no more judgment for that person post mortem?


  Hi Zeek ,
   to die a death  without faith
  Like my 20 year old brother did , not knowing God  or very little  about God He died  without  sin the was no Law to condemn  him 

  you cannot be   guilty  were there was no law applied  ..  what is the purpose of man anyways ?
 
 when I was  in my 30s and going to a hell fire church  , i did worry about my little brothers soul
 
  but after the Lord come and taught me His Truth and LOve   , and gave me the most comforting dream concerning my brother
  I have rested in  Gods grace and hope for all  humanity 
 
  when we are convicted  of sin this is the law   leading us to repentance  and   repentance     leads  us to Christ / forgiveness
  His mercy is what does change our minds and thoughts
 
   in  love   :HeartThrob: rose

Hey Rosie!!!  :girlheart:


Zeek

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #454 on: October 13, 2009, 04:36:53 AM »

Oh, i have a hard time asking my questions in a way that you understand where i am coming from.   hmm


I'll try again, when does one who in this "literal life" did not believe in HIM, and KNOW HIM; bow and confess Jessus Christ is Lord?? 

I assumed u thot the LOF was the process for a person to come to this "bowing"? 

How does one bow and confess "Jesus Christ is Lord" if they do not know Him?

Even if the LoF is the process by/through which we come to know Christ as Lord (and I do believe that it is) we have to pass through the fire first, don't we? Or do you believe that we bow and confess Christ as Lord WHILE we "believe not the Son" (as that is upon whom the wrath of God abides)? How is that possible?



OK, i just wish you would answer a question without a question.   :)


It wasn't a yes or no question. You were asking me for an example of something that I never said and for which I can't even imagine there is an example. How else could I answered it, except to tell you that I don't have one and to ask you if you know of one?

Ok.  I just am having a hard time seeing how one is "purged" if he literally dies, without faith.  This happens all the time. 

Yet you say u don't think LOF continues beyond "literal life", so the only thing I can think of that stopped the fire; is literal death.  Which if what i perceive of your belief (which is a perception, and likely not what u r saying) is that you mix physical (literal death) with spiritual. 

suicide seems like a good option, with what I percieve you to believe.



Well, I don't feel like I am "mixing" them, but "dividing" between them. It is not the pattern/figure/shadow/type (that which is seen, whatever one might call it) that I am concerned with. It is that which is not seen (to which these things point/reveal) that I am trying to focus on, since this is what we are told we should be focusing on.

Neither do I go around telling people to just kill themselves, as this would be "a good option".  :sigh:

Though I believe, just as Paul did, that to die would be "gain" and "far better". And, as for me, I am quite ready to go whenever my time comes - even hoping (sometimes) that my time come SOONER rather than later.  :winkgrin:



I think maybe where i'm stuck, is thinking you believe that the "conversion" for those who literally die (that are non believers) is right after they literally die, in an instant.

but

maybe you are saying; it's before they literally die, possibly right before "literal death"??

Because if it's after literal death, then it would be continuing judgment,or continued LOF, and "vanity" would have had to be carried on even if it's just an instant.  


Thanks for your patience withh me in trying to understand your pov.  



Zeek

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #455 on: October 13, 2009, 04:41:25 AM »
ok. 

Am i correct in my understanding of your belief; that if one literally dies without faith in Christ, that there is no more judgment for that person post mortem?


  Hi Zeek ,
   to die a death  without faith
  Like my 20 year old brother did , not knowing God  or very little  about God He died  without  sin the was no Law to condemn  him 

  you cannot be   guilty  were there was no law applied  ..  what is the purpose of man anyways ?
 
 when I was  in my 30s and going to a hell fire church  , i did worry about my little brothers soul
 
  but after the Lord come and taught me His Truth and LOve   , and gave me the most comforting dream concerning my brother
  I have rested in  Gods grace and hope for all  humanity 
 
  when we are convicted  of sin this is the law   leading us to repentance  and   repentance     leads  us to Christ / forgiveness
  His mercy is what does change our minds and thoughts
 
   in  love   :HeartThrob: rose

Hey Rosie!!!  :girlheart:



Hi Rosie,

I am so glad you have peace re: your brother, and I am sorry for your loss.  I agree with your post.  I believe in God's unfailing love too.

I am just trying  to figure out Chrissie's belief, and compare it internally with mine, and what I perceive scripture to be saying; and what I think those that Paul, James, John etc. preached to would have thought/believed. 

Blessings sister.


 


Offline rosered

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2994
  • Gender: Female
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #456 on: October 13, 2009, 04:44:13 AM »
 
Quote
Hey Rosie!!!  

   Hey Sweety  ! how you doing girl!  :gangel: glad to see you  up and about !


Quote
I think maybe where i'm stuck, is thinking you believe that the "conversion" for those who literally die (that are non believers) is right after they literally die, in an instant.

but

maybe you are saying; it's before they literally die, possibly right before "literal death"??

Because if it's after literal death, then it would be continuing judgment,or continued LOF, and "vanity" would have had to be carried on even if it's just an instant.  


Thanks for your patience withh me in trying to understand your pov.  

  Hi Zeek ,
  If I could   say anything  here ,  have you considered  all the days of our flesh asd vanity ?
  I sure have bro ..
 it  kinda  makes alot of sense to me
  cause I have seen old folks in the natural  still "stuck" in that  empty place
  Its sad to me
  but I know  we got lots more  learnin  to go!!  when we pass over
 :icon_flower:
 
 in Love rose  :HeartThrob:

Zeek

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #457 on: October 13, 2009, 04:46:12 AM »

Quote
Hey Rosie!!!  

   Hey Sweety  ! how you doing girl!  :gangel: glad to see you  up and about !


Quote
I think maybe where i'm stuck, is thinking you believe that the "conversion" for those who literally die (that are non believers) is right after they literally die, in an instant.

but

maybe you are saying; it's before they literally die, possibly right before "literal death"??

Because if it's after literal death, then it would be continuing judgment,or continued LOF, and "vanity" would have had to be carried on even if it's just an instant.  


Thanks for your patience withh me in trying to understand your pov.  

  Hi Zeek ,
  If I could   say anything  here ,  have you considered  all the days of our flesh asd vanity ?
  I sure have bro ..
 it  kinda  makes alot of sense to me
  cause I have seen old folks in the natural  still "stuck" in that  empty place
  Its sad to me
  but I know  we got lots more  learnin  to go!!  when we pass over
 :icon_flower:
 
 in Love rose  :HeartThrob:

How do you know that we have more to learn when we "pass over"? 

Offline rosered

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2994
  • Gender: Female
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #458 on: October 13, 2009, 04:52:45 AM »
ok. 

Am i correct in my understanding of your belief; that if one literally dies without faith in Christ, that there is no more judgment for that person post mortem?


  Hi Zeek ,
   to die a death  without faith
  Like my 20 year old brother did , not knowing God  or very little  about God He died  without  sin the was no Law to condemn  him 

  you cannot be   guilty  were there was no law applied  ..  what is the purpose of man anyways ?
 
 when I was  in my 30s and going to a hell fire church  , i did worry about my little brothers soul
 
  but after the Lord come and taught me His Truth and LOve   , and gave me the most comforting dream concerning my brother
  I have rested in  Gods grace and hope for all  humanity 
 
  when we are convicted  of sin this is the law   leading us to repentance  and   repentance     leads  us to Christ / forgiveness
  His mercy is what does change our minds and thoughts
 
   in  love   :HeartThrob: rose

Hey Rosie!!!  :girlheart:



Hi Rosie,

I am so glad you have peace re: your brother, and I am sorry for your loss.  I agree with your post.  I believe in God's unfailing love too.

I am just trying  to figure out Chrissie's belief, and compare it internally with mine, and what I perceive scripture to be saying; and what I think those that Paul, James, John etc. preached to would have thought/believed. 

Blessings sister.


 


 Thanks Bro !
 
  well I am still in my learning  phases   lol , I have some  settled and lots are not !
 
  but I sure am  in agreement with the scriptures   :HeartThrob:  I love His Word ..

   who is sick and sleeping  in the Church that Paul noted in 1 corinth.11
 
  those that did NOT consider the LORDS BODY ! the  True Church 
 
 this preaching was
 still being taught .. :HeartThrob:  in love Rose

Chris

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #459 on: October 13, 2009, 04:53:34 AM »

Hi James, thanks. Still not sure I see those same connections in these passages, so I will wait for Gilbert to direct me elsewhere if he has something else in mind. But, in the meantime, let me ask you about how you see the verses above, if you don't mind?

In the passages in 1 Cor 15 it speaks of the last Adam as "a life-giving spirit". What does that mean to you and how do you see that in relation to "a spiritual body"? Do you see "a spiritual body" as "a body of flesh and bones"? Do you believe that, even today, Christ has "a body of flesh and bones"?

Or might it be that that which is seen (Christ's physical death and bodily resurrection) is given to us "for an example" so that we can "see" that which is not seen... in the same way that Christ's miracle, though physical in nature, were meant to show us spiritual truths about how Christ heals the blind, the deaf, the lame and even the dead - after a spiritual truth?




If you don't mind, I would like to jump in with some additional comments concerning the spiritual body.

The Bible teaches us that there is a process of complete transformation which man must undergo in order to attain spiritual maturity (aka: 'perfection'). We can read about it in that well-known text in 2Cor 5:17, "Therefore if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation, the old has passed away, behold the new has come".
In chapter 3 verse 18 the Apostle used the basic word 'metamorphosis': "And we all with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit". This verse refers to a transformation which ongoing; not yet complete.

The transformation first begins by a change in our way of thinking, Paul also used the word 'metamorphosis' in Rom 12:2, "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind". The third occasion we encounter this word in the New Testament is in Matt 17:2 & Mark 9:2 where we read the account of the transfiguration of Jesus in the presence of His disciples. Here the word refers to a change from His natural form to His supernatural or heavenly form; the distinguishing feature here being the 'glistening attire'.

The spirit has two purposes: first, to form and develop the physical man and, secondly, to form and develop the spiritual man. The physical development comes first and then the spiritual, (1Cor 15:46).

We all possess the possibility within ourselves to undergo a metamorphosis from a physical to a spiritual being. Our spirit is the bearer of life and our soul has the characteristics which make us human. Spirit and soul together form our spiritual, invisible body.

It is not the visible or physical human being that is able to undergo a metamorphosis, but rather the invisible, inner man, with his spiritual and immortal body. The physical human has a normal, mortal body. We therefore have two bodies. "If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body", (1Cor 15:44).

In 2Corinthians 5:1, the Apostle states that on death the Christian leaves his mortal body, his earthly tent, behind. However, he still has his immortal body, his eternal, spiritual house. Thus, we understand why 2Cor 4:7 states that we have this treasure in an earthen vessel.

The physical body is material but the spiritual body is not material. The first is temporary and transitory and the other is eternal and imperishable. One is formed by the elements of the earth, while the other by the elements of heaven.

In the first phase of life, the spiritual body develops parallel to the physical body. The older a person becomes the more responsibility he can shoulder, the more stamina he has, the more knowledge and wisdom he possesses and the more his creative abilities in art and technical skills are developed. These are earthly things connected with the spiritual body and, in this way, the human grows "under the sun".

This does not always develop perfectly and harmoniously because no one can fully escape the influence of the prince of this world. All people have walked "following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit which is now at work in the sons of disobedience", (Eph 2:2). They have become useless, unable to enter a new phase of life or to undergo a metamorphosis by which they would be able to raise themselves into the dimension of God's Kingdom.

There is also a veil over everyone which can only be removed when they turn to the Lord (2Cor 3:16-18). By nature we are children of wrath because of our development in our earthly, natural life. A veil of deceit and sin is over us and we are spiritually blinded and deafened by the god of this world. We cannot see the glory of God and do not experience the inner metamorphosis by which we can grow to be mature, spiritual people.

God once tried to teach Adam to become a mature, spiritual person so that eventually his physical body could be changed in a moment of time, at an opportune moment, and swallowed up by his spiritual body. This is what is said will happen to the sons of God who in the end time have reached perfection, (1Cor 15:51-54). Adam's development came to a halt at his fall; he became useless.

In the Old Testament there were no spiritual people as God had originally desired and so the spiritual body could not develop to enable it to enter the Kingdom of God. Under the New Covenant there is a possibility for the spiritual body to undergo a metamorphosis, whereby man is enabled to live in a new dimension - just like the caterpillar when it becomes a butterfly.

The Bible calls the first period of the spiritual body a 'worm' condition. Of course, the Bible is not referring here to a garden worm: the Greek word used here can also mean maggots or larva and these are forms of life which can undergo a metamorphosis. The worm does not stop existing. The worm does not die because it belongs to the spiritual world "where their worm does not die", (Mark 9:48).

In Isaiah 41:14 we read about the "worm Jacob" and in Job 25:6 Bilead calls man a maggot and the son of a man a worm. Under the Old Covenant the chosen ones were not spiritual beings. The very best of them were natural, unspoiled people. The righteous people gained a special place in the Kingdom of Death but their inner spiritual man was not transferred into the Kingdom of God.

Even though they had the divine Law, they could not reach perfection because they lived under a veil. "Yes, to this day, whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their mind". They, therefore, have no insight into or knowledge of the unseen world. The best of them just saw a glimpse of it. These believers received a word from God because they had glimpsed the Kingdom of Heaven. They had merely caught a glimpse of the promise. Abraham saw from far off his spiritual son and he was glad.

Therefore, we now recognize how Jesus again became a worm on the cross. He was not there as a mature, spiritual man, (Psalm 22:2). He had cast off his glory as a spiritual man and had become as a natural man, burdened with sin and guilt.

In the last verse of Isaiah we read the following about the rebellious and godless people, "their worm shall not die, their fires shall not be quenched and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh". Jesus quoted this verse in Mark 9:43-48 and He referred to people who prefer darkness to light, that is, He referred to the unrighteous and godless people. The larva of their spiritual body which has not undergone a metamorphosis will, at the Second Resurrection, be thrown into the Lake of Fire. In Revelation 20:15 we read about this: "and if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he (as the larva of the spiritual) was thrown into the lake of fire".

In Matthew 10:28 Jesus warns "Do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul, rather fear him, the evil one, who can destroy both soul and body in Hell". So keep your distance from the evil one who is able to ruin your body by death, by delivering you into the lawless power of death, through which the body reverts to lifeless dust. Fellowship with this enemy is also able to drag your spiritual body, the larva, into the fire, that is into the power of darkness. You must keep your spiritual body in contact with the Holy Spirit and not with unclean spirits.

There is, therefore, a possibility for the larva to undergo a metamorphosis. The Bible says that we must put off the old nature and put on the new. The word 'metamorphosis' is concerned with the law of creation of the Supreme Being. Another illustration is that of rebirth. At birth the child already exists but enters a new phase of life - out of the darkness of the womb into the light. This is the same with the rebirth. The inner man is already in existence but he enters a totally different phase in his fife. The words 'metamorphosis', 'resurrection' and 'rebirth' all refer to a new phase of development in life.

In Isaiah 41 God talks to the "worm Jacob", the people of God who are on the point of undergoing a great change. Then the Lord says, "You are my servant. I have chosen you and not cast you off; fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you. I will help you, I will uphold you with my victorious right hand"; that is, with my Spirit. The powers of darkness always want to hold back this development and that is why we read "Behold all who are incensed against you shall be put to shame and confounded".

God helps the worm Jacob in the metamorphosis to become a spiritual Israel. How does He do this? First of all through Christ, through His gospel, the veil is removed. The falsehood and deceit are replaced by truth; the guilt disappears through the expiation of our sins. Therefore we read that they have conquered the Evil One through the expiation -by the blood of the Lamb- and by truth -the word of their testimony- (Rev 12:11).

First there must be a conversion, a turning away from evil to good, and then a definite turn towards God. For those who accept Jesus' offer to become righteous, keep His word and keep on believing, a new life begins. For only a righteous person can enter the Kingdom of God, and then only through Christ.

The caterpillar becomes a butterfly and the larva becomes a melolontha. They start a new life in a new world. After this metamorphosis has taken place, it has new aims and interests. The Bible says that after we have come to know Christ we also become quite different. The veil is removed and the darkness is left behind; different food is eaten.

The more we keep to the truth, the more the veil disappears. The cloud is removed from the mind and the Christian receives enlightenment for the eyes of the heart. The heart is an organ in the spiritual body and has ears to hear what is said by the Spirit who teaches and helps by developing the spiritual talents and who supports the human spirit so that it can reach full maturity. Thus the divine nature is revealed in the precious fruit of the Holy Spirit.

The air is the domain of the butterfly. Even if it lands on a flower it still remains a butterfly. This 'landing' often makes the life of the spiritual person difficult because he then comes into the domain of the prince of this world, while his true domain has become the Kingdom of God. That is why Paul said, "to be with Christ is far better", (Philippians 1:23), which means to be solely in the Kingdom of God.

Our works on earth form the garments for our spiritual body. We do not want to be found naked but clothed. We, therefore, pursue not only the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit but also the good works which are the outworking of the gifts and fruits of the Spirit in the visible world.

A butterfly will never return to being a caterpillar. We lay aside the first stage of our life, just as a caterpillar leaves its cocoon. Then, as our spiritual body continues to develop in God's Kingdom, we grow from a child into a son, from a son into a father and thus reach perfection and maturity.

Then the moment arrives where death will be swallowed up in victory, (1Cor 15:54). In a moment of time the mortal will put on immortality; the physical will become spiritual, full of spiritual power. The spiritual body will rule over the dust of the earth, in the same way as when the Creator, merely by His Word, ordered the dust to become matter. When we too, with our glorified body, will be able to command the dust to take on a form or to decompose. We will have a body just like the Lord after the Resurrection when He could eat and drink with His spiritual body but could also withdraw completely into the unseen world.

Those who see the possibilities open to man once he has undergone such a metamorphosis are no longer able to look back to the past but become more and more drawn to "no eye has seen and no ear has heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love Him", (1Cor 2:9).

"Therefore if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation, the old has passed a way behold the new has come" (2Cor 5:17). "And we all with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord are being changed into His likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the lord who is spirit" (2Cor 3:18).

(Some above portions were copied/pasted from content hosted at "stolen spirit" to save me time)

I actually agree with quite a bit of that, though I can't be absolutely sure that what I think they mean is what they actually mean, as there are some who will refer to corpses in graves as the "this mortal" that must "put on immortality".

I do agree (if I am understanding this correctly) that "the spiritual body" is spirit and invisible and not tangible (despite Christ's ability to manifest himself physically in this physical world after His resurrection).

I do not agree with: "Under the Old Covenant the chosen ones were not spiritual beings. The very best of them were natural, unspoiled people. The righteous people gained a special place in the Kingdom of Death but their inner spiritual man was not transferred into the Kingdom of God".

God is the God OF THE LIVING and God Himself said to Moses "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob".

When we enter into the New Jerusalem we "sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven".

It's getting sort of late and I have to get up at 4:30am to go to work so I won't go through the whole thing part by part, but thanks for sharing it - there is much there that I can agree with (if I am understanding it correctly). 

Offline rosered

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2994
  • Gender: Female
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #460 on: October 13, 2009, 05:03:01 AM »

Quote
Hey Rosie!!!  

   Hey Sweety  ! how you doing girl!  :gangel: glad to see you  up and about !


Quote
I think maybe where i'm stuck, is thinking you believe that the "conversion" for those who literally die (that are non believers) is right after they literally die, in an instant.

but

maybe you are saying; it's before they literally die, possibly right before "literal death"??

Because if it's after literal death, then it would be continuing judgment,or continued LOF, and "vanity" would have had to be carried on even if it's just an instant.  


Thanks for your patience withh me in trying to understand your pov.  

  Hi Zeek ,
  If I could   say anything  here ,  have you considered  all the days of our flesh asd vanity ?
  I sure have bro ..
 it  kinda  makes alot of sense to me
  cause I have seen old folks in the natural  still "stuck" in that  empty place
  Its sad to me
  but I know  we got lots more  learnin  to go!!  when we pass over
 :icon_flower:
 
 in Love rose  :HeartThrob:

How do you know that we have more to learn when we "pass over"? 

  Well it is something  Paul said ,

  that you will judge the world and angels , the saints aka holy ones
  are  judging   they are with the Lord
  in   His Body/with Him    we still will be learning from our Master /The Lord  , this is what I am trying to convey, I just  feel there is alot more to the Spiritual realm   than we can know  down  here in the mortal body  and  spiritual body together ..
 
  What do you think  ?  , I am willing to listen and hear you bro .. in love rose  :HeartThrob:
 
  to Judge krinō
/1) to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose

2) to approve, esteem, to prefer

3) to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion

4) to determine, resolve, decree

5) to judge

a) to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong

1) to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it

b) to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure

1) of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others

6) to rule, govern

a) to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment

7) to contend together, of warriors and combatants

a) to dispute

b) in a forensic sense

1) to go to law, have suit at law


 


1Cr 6:1  Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?  


 1Cr 6:2   Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?  


 1Cr 6:3   Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?  


 1Cr 6:4   If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.  

Chris

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #461 on: October 13, 2009, 05:12:32 AM »

Oh, i have a hard time asking my questions in a way that you understand where i am coming from.   hmm


I'll try again, when does one who in this "literal life" did not believe in HIM, and KNOW HIM; bow and confess Jessus Christ is Lord?? 

I assumed u thot the LOF was the process for a person to come to this "bowing"? 

How does one bow and confess "Jesus Christ is Lord" if they do not know Him?

Even if the LoF is the process by/through which we come to know Christ as Lord (and I do believe that it is) we have to pass through the fire first, don't we? Or do you believe that we bow and confess Christ as Lord WHILE we "believe not the Son" (as that is upon whom the wrath of God abides)? How is that possible?



OK, i just wish you would answer a question without a question.   :)


It wasn't a yes or no question. You were asking me for an example of something that I never said and for which I can't even imagine there is an example. How else could I answered it, except to tell you that I don't have one and to ask you if you know of one?

Ok.  I just am having a hard time seeing how one is "purged" if he literally dies, without faith.  This happens all the time. 

Yet you say u don't think LOF continues beyond "literal life", so the only thing I can think of that stopped the fire; is literal death.  Which if what i perceive of your belief (which is a perception, and likely not what u r saying) is that you mix physical (literal death) with spiritual. 

suicide seems like a good option, with what I percieve you to believe.



Well, I don't feel like I am "mixing" them, but "dividing" between them. It is not the pattern/figure/shadow/type (that which is seen, whatever one might call it) that I am concerned with. It is that which is not seen (to which these things point/reveal) that I am trying to focus on, since this is what we are told we should be focusing on.

Neither do I go around telling people to just kill themselves, as this would be "a good option".  :sigh:

Though I believe, just as Paul did, that to die would be "gain" and "far better". And, as for me, I am quite ready to go whenever my time comes - even hoping (sometimes) that my time come SOONER rather than later.  :winkgrin:



I think maybe where i'm stuck, is thinking you believe that the "conversion" for those who literally die (that are non believers) is right after they literally die, in an instant.

but

maybe you are saying; it's before they literally die, possibly right before "literal death"??

Because if it's after literal death, then it would be continuing judgment,or continued LOF, and "vanity" would have had to be carried on even if it's just an instant.  


Thanks for your patience withh me in trying to understand your pov.  



I know you don't like me answering a question with a question, but since I already feel like I answered the question a few times can I ask you how long YOU believe it will (or should) take for one to be converted and to know the Lord? 1 second? 5 minutes? 1 hour or 10? 2 days or 2 weeks? a year or two? centuries?

Why assume that it won't be instantaneous if, with God, all things are possible?

If we are no longer subject to the things of this world and the lust of the flesh and a carnal mind, and all the things which keep us from knowing God and Jesus Christ whom he sent?

If Paul is "the pattern" and he was able to bow before the Lord while still in the flesh when coming "face to face" with Him, then should we think that it will take "longer" for those who are not?

And, once again, IF "the dead in Christ" of whom Paul spoke and of whom he said we should not be ignorant and who we should not mourn are, indeed, those who are physically alive (but who are "dead" in sin) at the coming of the Lord and they are caught up first (as are "the tares", according to Christ) and Paul says that "we who are ALIVE AND REMAIN" are caught up together WITH THEM, such that we shall ALL be "forever with the Lord" then were is this post-mortum LoF that the wicked are still to be cast into?

What of "the fire" that Christ said "I am come to send"? Also saying that "NOW is the judgment of this world"?

What about the fact that the scriptures say that the righteous and the wicked/sinners are recompenses "in the earth" (that is HIS FOOTSTOOL.... and "HIS FEET", the scriptures say, are "like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace")?   

If we are to compare spiritual things with spiritual, so that we can rightly divide the word of truth and we are told that we are to be looking upon those things that are not seen, rather than those things that are seen (to me, the types/figures) then why focus of those things that are seen? which are physical? which are clearly said to be temporal?


Offline sparrow

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1830
  • I watch, & am as a sparrow alone upon the rooftop.
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #462 on: October 13, 2009, 05:19:56 AM »
I fully expect to go through more purifying after my physical body has died. I don't fear this. I welcome it. I can see myself looking over my life and seeing my missteps being pointed out in a loving way. I can see myself understanding how "love" in different situations would have prevented harm and hurt. I almost WELCOME this because I keep looking back already and seeing things I wish I'd done differently and thinking about how if I'd been more loving... etc. which pushes me to be more loving NOW. That is why I see the "lake of fire" as a good thing. As something that we walk through now and we walk through after this life. I say the more you can walk through it now the better. I don't know if that even makes sense, but it's the only way I can word it, I guess.  :dontknow:

This isn't a "oh you are so terrible!!!" type of thing... but more of an instructional, God holding my hand and helping me to learn MORE about HIM through the actions of MY life. The more we allow His love to permeate our being... the more we are becoming who we were always meant to be, and WILL be.

Maybe I'm wrong about all of this.
But I don't really see the point if this DOESN'T happen.
This world is a schoolyard.
Seems to me the most learning is actually going to happen AFTER we go home.

well, just some thoughts.


So you see the continuing "purifying" being done after this literal life, for what you did when you were literally alive??

or

do you think you will still be carnal in the next "life"?

Yes, I see the continuing purifying being done after this literal life.

This is a bit more of where I'm coming from, how I see life, etc. so hopefully you'll understand more of where I'm coming from with my perspective.

I see this world as a schoolyard (for the most part.) I see every single life as being ESSENTIAL. Everything happening is going to eventually end up teaching us ALL more about God. What is God? God is love. We're here to learn about our Creator. Through this contrast of "good" (love) and "evil" non-love, that which is devoid of love.

I see my life, not just teaching ME.... but somehow in some way, teaching EVERYONE, every human being...something MORE about love. I see every single happening, every single life, everything... from the mundane experiences, to extremely intense experiences, every single thing, every single life, human, animal, etc. EVERYTHING.... will somehow end up teaching us ALL...SOMETHING MORE about God.

Every life lived is a thread in the tapestry. We can't see the big picture now, but one day we will. And every life will benefit every other life. in some way. AS a whole. and individually.

I have no idea HOW. But this is just the only thing that makes sense to me.

Our current suffering will in no way compare to the glory that is to be revealed.
Our suffering is teaching us... now, and it will culminate in an eternal "lesson" (not sure how else to word that) anyway, an eternal "lesson" of LOVE. of Who GOD is.

I think that we need to go through this life.... this physical life on earth, all of us...to experience the contrast so that we can KNOW WHO God is. (this life being the "current suffering" we as a whole are experiencing on our road to God being revealed to us.) so that we can BASK in HIS glory, BASK in His love and EXPLORE HIM and truly LEARN about Him for all eternity. I think we must all first come to the realizing that HE IS LOVE. That is the first thing that we must all come to KNOW. If we had been like Adam and Eve before the fall, we would never truly KNOW who God is. or what LOVE is. We would never know. WE would be totally ignorant. I think the first thing we need to learn is that He IS love. It's almost like we are standing on the outside of a fence. Inside the fence is God. Before we can go and be with Him and hang out and explore Him, we have to get over the wall. We have to understand WHO He is FIRST before we can truly start to explore Him.  This exploring Him will just never end. Look around at this earth. Everything on this earth reflects Him in some way. After all these years we haven't even discovered all of the animals that are here!! Something tells me that there is infinite more things that reflect Him. (This basking in and exploring Him is the "glory to be revealed" that cannot compare to this short time of suffering that creation is subjected to.) We all take part in climbing over the wall on our path back home. We have to learn through experience. It's the only way. It's the only way I think a God who is "love" would have His beloved creatures learn of Him. To just go ahead and walk it. We each walk a path as brothers and sisters.

When I say that we will be purified AFTER we die (physical death)... what I mean, is I think that we will reflect back and see the contrast between love and non-love in our lives. It isn't meant to hurt us, it's meant to prepare us, to assist us in learning about our Creator. What better way than to actually walk through the contrast and literally experience it?

I really do think that somehow, (again I have no earthly idea how this will happen) but I think that every life story... everything will serve as some sort of monument, some sort of man, I don't know... a testament? A memorial? A book of life? SOMETHING that all creation will look at and marvel at.
Our whole experience here in this "physical" life, this carnal life, this walk through the knowledge of "good and evil" will serve it's purpose for ALL of us. We will all SEE everything and understand the workings of love and non-love through every single thing happening on this earth.

Then there will come the time when "the former things have passed away..." because this life has served it's purpose... and now we can get on with the "glory to be revealed".

I do believe that we die a physical death, but our spirit/soul goes on and we given a new glorified body. I don't see why it can't be similar in ways to our physical natural body. I see it as being more REAL than our bodies now. Incorruptible, imperishable. I don't believe that we turn into wispy wisps of nothingness. I think we will all take on a real form. Perhaps the form has the power to change, I have no idea what our glorified bodies will be like, but there are certain things that I won't rule out.

hmmm.

If this did not make sense. Just let me know.
I hate not feeling like I understand what the heck a person is saying...so if that is what you are feeling right now, let me know. and I will do my best to reword stuff. I don't mind at all.
These are just my thoughts, ideas, ponderings.

Mostly just... ponderings I guess.
Of a sister just trying to make sense of what God has planned for us.
And what this life is for.

peace.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Zeek

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #463 on: October 13, 2009, 05:20:58 AM »

I know you don't like me answering a question with a question, but since I already feel like I answered the question a few times can I ask you how long YOU believe it will (or should) take for one to be converted and to know the Lord? 1 second? 5 minutes? 1 hour or 10? 2 days or 2 weeks? a year or two? centuries?

Why assume that it won't be instantaneous if, with God, all things are possible?

I never said anything about time frames, so not sure why you think I don't think it will be instantaneous.  Unless your question was rhetorical.

I have so many ideas, that contrast each other that at this time i'm not willing to state my beliefs, other than what we all knnow; LOVE never fails

Zeek

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #464 on: October 13, 2009, 05:29:07 AM »
I fully expect to go through more purifying after my physical body has died. I don't fear this. I welcome it. I can see myself looking over my life and seeing my missteps being pointed out in a loving way. I can see myself understanding how "love" in different situations would have prevented harm and hurt. I almost WELCOME this because I keep looking back already and seeing things I wish I'd done differently and thinking about how if I'd been more loving... etc. which pushes me to be more loving NOW. That is why I see the "lake of fire" as a good thing. As something that we walk through now and we walk through after this life. I say the more you can walk through it now the better. I don't know if that even makes sense, but it's the only way I can word it, I guess.  :dontknow:

This isn't a "oh you are so terrible!!!" type of thing... but more of an instructional, God holding my hand and helping me to learn MORE about HIM through the actions of MY life. The more we allow His love to permeate our being... the more we are becoming who we were always meant to be, and WILL be.

Maybe I'm wrong about all of this.
But I don't really see the point if this DOESN'T happen.
This world is a schoolyard.
Seems to me the most learning is actually going to happen AFTER we go home.

well, just some thoughts.


So you see the continuing "purifying" being done after this literal life, for what you did when you were literally alive??

or

do you think you will still be carnal in the next "life"?

Yes, I see the continuing purifying being done after this literal life.

This is a bit more of where I'm coming from, how I see life, etc. so hopefully you'll understand more of where I'm coming from with my perspective.

I see this world as a schoolyard (for the most part.) I see every single life as being ESSENTIAL. Everything happening is going to eventually end up teaching us ALL more about God. What is God? God is love. We're here to learn about our Creator. Through this contrast of "good" (love) and "evil" non-love, that which is devoid of love.

I see my life, not just teaching ME.... but somehow in some way, teaching EVERYONE, every human being...something MORE about love. I see every single happening, every single life, everything... from the mundane experiences, to extremely intense experiences, every single thing, every single life, human, animal, etc. EVERYTHING.... will somehow end up teaching us ALL...SOMETHING MORE about God.

Every life lived is a thread in the tapestry. We can't see the big picture now, but one day we will. And every life will benefit every other life. in some way. AS a whole. and individually.

I have no idea HOW. But this is just the only thing that makes sense to me.

Our current suffering will in no way compare to the glory that is to be revealed.
Our suffering is teaching us... now, and it will culminate in an eternal "lesson" (not sure how else to word that) anyway, an eternal "lesson" of LOVE. of Who GOD is.

I think that we need to go through this life.... this physical life on earth, all of us...to experience the contrast so that we can KNOW WHO God is. (this life being the "current suffering" we as a whole are experiencing on our road to God being revealed to us.) so that we can BASK in HIS glory, BASK in His love and EXPLORE HIM and truly LEARN about Him for all eternity. I think we must all first come to the realizing that HE IS LOVE. That is the first thing that we must all come to KNOW. If we had been like Adam and Eve before the fall, we would never truly KNOW who God is. or what LOVE is. We would never know. WE would be totally ignorant. I think the first thing we need to learn is that He IS love. It's almost like we are standing on the outside of a fence. Inside the fence is God. Before we can go and be with Him and hang out and explore Him, we have to get over the wall. We have to understand WHO He is FIRST before we can truly start to explore Him.  This exploring Him will just never end. Look around at this earth. Everything on this earth reflects Him in some way. After all these years we haven't even discovered all of the animals that are here!! Something tells me that there is infinite more things that reflect Him. (This basking in and exploring Him is the "glory to be revealed" that cannot compare to this short time of suffering that creation is subjected to.) We all take part in climbing over the wall on our path back home. We have to learn through experience. It's the only way. It's the only way I think a God who is "love" would have His beloved creatures learn of Him. To just go ahead and walk it. We each walk a path as brothers and sisters.

When I say that we will be purified AFTER we die (physical death)... what I mean, is I think that we will reflect back and see the contrast between love and non-love in our lives. It isn't meant to hurt us, it's meant to prepare us, to assist us in learning about our Creator. What better way than to actually walk through the contrast and literally experience it?

I really do think that somehow, (again I have no earthly idea how this will happen) but I think that every life story... everything will serve as some sort of monument, some sort of man, I don't know... a testament? A memorial? A book of life? SOMETHING that all creation will look at and marvel at.
Our whole experience here in this "physical" life, this carnal life, this walk through the knowledge of "good and evil" will serve it's purpose for ALL of us. We will all SEE everything and understand the workings of love and non-love through every single thing happening on this earth.

Then there will come the time when "the former things have passed away..." because this life has served it's purpose... and now we can get on with the "glory to be revealed".

I do believe that we die a physical death, but our spirit/soul goes on and we given a new glorified body. I don't see why it can't be similar in ways to our physical natural body. I see it as being more REAL than our bodies now. Incorruptible, imperishable. I don't believe that we turn into wispy wisps of nothingness. I think we will all take on a real form. Perhaps the form has the power to change, I have no idea what our glorified bodies will be like, but there are certain things that I won't rule out.

hmmm.

If this did not make sense. Just let me know.
I hate not feeling like I understand what the heck a person is saying...so if that is what you are feeling right now, let me know. and I will do my best to reword stuff. I don't mind at all.
These are just my thoughts, ideas, ponderings.

Mostly just... ponderings I guess.
Of a sister just trying to make sense of what God has planned for us.
And what this life is for.

peace.

beautiful ponderings.  thanks for the time for you to  share.

I do have a question,

do you see the "good" of the tree of knowledge of "good and evil" as what we are eternally going to be?

Do you see Christ as this good branch, or do you see LOVE as a different tree altogether.


seems if this life is to learn good and evil, and the contrast; we miss the tree of life, a different tree???

Offline rosered

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2994
  • Gender: Female
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #465 on: October 13, 2009, 05:33:35 AM »

 agreed Zeek ....
  That  was just Awesome Sparrow!  WOW ..
 
  Lovely thoughts sis!  :HeartThrob: In love rose

Offline sparrow

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1830
  • I watch, & am as a sparrow alone upon the rooftop.
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #466 on: October 13, 2009, 05:44:27 AM »

beautiful ponderings.  thanks for the time for you to  share.

I do have a question,

do you see the "good" of the tree of knowledge of "good and evil" as what we are eternally going to be?

Do you see Christ as this good branch, or do you see LOVE as a different tree altogether.


seems if this life is to learn good and evil, and the contrast; we miss the tree of life, a different tree???



I'm not sure. Maybe I'm too simple.. lol. Seriously. I think I am.
Because I'm not sure how to answer your question in relation to the trees.

I just see evil as being "non-love". Once we are permeated with love and all non-love has been purified out of us, and we see the power of love, and we see how WEAK non-love is... then we will forever be immersed in and operate solely out of love.

I've always seen "good and evil" as just being simpler terms that actually mean "love" and "non-love".

Knowledge of love and non-love makes more sense to me than the knowledge of "good and evil".

It's like non-love is the void left behind, the darkness, when love is not present.
It's the vacuum, black-hole that can suck the life out of anything.
But when love rushes in, the vacuum is disconnected from it's source of (weak) power and is shut off.

That's sort of how I see it.
The tree of life... is what the tree of knowledge of good and evil eventually turns INTO.
Once the knowledge has been gained... once we make it over that wall I talked about earlier... then the ToKoGaE turns into the Tree of Life.... and our REAL lives START.

Did that sort of answer your question...
or no?
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline sparrow

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1830
  • I watch, & am as a sparrow alone upon the rooftop.
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #467 on: October 13, 2009, 05:45:22 AM »

 agreed Zeek ....
  That  was just Awesome Sparrow!  WOW ..
 
  Lovely thoughts sis!  :HeartThrob: In love rose

lol... thanks.
Sometimes I think (know) I'm a rambling crazy person.
It's nice to know some of my ponderings actually make some sense to other folks sometimes.  :laughing7:

 :HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Zeek

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #468 on: October 13, 2009, 06:01:15 AM »

beautiful ponderings.  thanks for the time for you to  share.

I do have a question,

do you see the "good" of the tree of knowledge of "good and evil" as what we are eternally going to be?

Do you see Christ as this good branch, or do you see LOVE as a different tree altogether.


seems if this life is to learn good and evil, and the contrast; we miss the tree of life, a different tree???



I'm not sure. Maybe I'm too simple.. lol. Seriously. I think I am.
Because I'm not sure how to answer your question in relation to the trees.

I just see evil as being "non-love". Once we are permeated with love and all non-love has been purified out of us, and we see the power of love, and we see how WEAK non-love is... then we will forever be immersed in and operate solely out of love.

I've always seen "good and evil" as just being simpler terms that actually mean "love" and "non-love".

Knowledge of love and non-love makes more sense to me than the knowledge of "good and evil".

It's like non-love is the void left behind, the darkness, when love is not present.
It's the vacuum, black-hole that can suck the life out of anything.
But when love rushes in, the vacuum is disconnected from it's source of (weak) power and is shut off.

That's sort of how I see it.
The tree of life... is what the tree of knowledge of good and evil eventually turns INTO.
Once the knowledge has been gained... once we make it over that wall I talked about earlier... then the ToKoGaE turns into the Tree of Life.... and our REAL lives START.

Did that sort of answer your question...
or no?

Yes, thank you. I like your simplicity. 

This is jsut purely some ramblings:

I'm not sure you will see the relation, but light is made of contrasts, positive and negative electrons.  When Positive electrons are drawn toward negative electrons, they cancel each other out and produce light.  (very simplistic description)

So,

I think the judgment of "good" as alot of us see it, it the positive electron;

and evil, is the negative electron

Both electrons have to be cancelled out, to form LIGHT.



So, when I judge a person as evil, it is a distorted perception that needs to be centered in order to be cancelled.  When I realize (or learn) that I too am evil for judging a person as evil, or for doing the same "act", the perception is drawn to the middle.

When I judge a person as good, it is a distorted perception that needs to be centered.  When I realize that I too am good, the perception is drawn to the middle.


Just as a coin from one angle looks only like a "heads", from another angle looks like a "tails" only.   But in reality it is both and also neither. 

Two people on a teeter totter are at the extreme opposites(good and evil) but when perfectly balanced, imo is an example of LIGHT (love).

So, I do see what you are saying in a lot of ways; I think through experience we learn that what we judge as good and evil is limited by perception; 

and once learned, LOVE is released/formed.   


hmmm

just thinking.

 

Tim B

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #469 on: October 13, 2009, 06:09:57 AM »
Men are still physically dying though. Does the spiritual man relate to the physical man? For instance, when I die, do you think I'll have some sort of interaction with the Earthly realm? Would I be part of the Sons of God that bring their glory to free "the creature"/the Earth from bondage?

 :cloud9: Yes, they are still dying, but when you see what His INTENTION was, you see that He never intended for us to die in the first place. This is why Paul talked about the glory within, coming without, ie. clothing this mortal with immortality. He didn't say the glory was coming via literal death.This is the purpose in the first place, of Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory. People generally have not been taught WHAT that hope IS.

Ro 6:4 - Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the GLORY of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

If there is nothing but dying and THEN being "glorified", what need to explain the "afterlife" to us in such detail, as surely we would find out then? He was not telling us how great it's going to be when we lay down this body literally, but rather telling us HOW NOT TO LAY IT DOWN AT ALL.

And so we are told such things as, "reckon yourselves dead". So, ok, if NOW I'm dead, SOMEBODY TELL ME HOW TO RESURRECT! And so Christ was sent to do just that. He was our "show and tell" on how to go to the Father and obtain life everlasting (immortality). He has life (Christ) to give AND life everlasting (Father).

Make no mistake about it, Jesus had ALREADY been to the Father, before He EVER went to the cross. And He could have told us how to do it and done nothing but miracles, but who would have believed He had mastery over death until it was too late because He had outlived THEM? He came to DEMONSTRATE that the Word of God is true, not just speak it. And the revelation of Christ that is progressively unfolding NOW, is designed for this very purpose, ie. death being swallowed up of life. Blessings....

I think I kinda get what you're saying. Basically: life is to be found in the HERE and NOW as opposed to some time after we die (physically)?

Also, when do you think the non-believers are resurrected? Paul, in 1 Cor. 15, talks about all being vivified in their own order: first Christ, then those that are his at his coming (70 AD, from my perspective) and then "the end" when he is subjecting all to the Father so that God may be all in all. ... But I'm not sure when/how that is. Do you think this means that all since 70 AD are being resurrected spiritually to Christ when they physically die? (This is where I tend to lean, especially considering near-death experiences, which seem to support this idea, if they're actually real, spiritual happenings).

Oh, and btw, I'm not trying to focus solely on physical death, or say that anything important only happens death, but I'm just wondering about the non-believers and their spiritual resurrection. I understand, at least in part, that this life is very important in showing Christ in us. Right now I'm at the point that I think showing love is the best way to show Christ in this hard and difficult world full of (most non-willfully) blinded people.

Offline sparrow

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1830
  • I watch, & am as a sparrow alone upon the rooftop.
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #470 on: October 13, 2009, 06:24:45 AM »

Yes, thank you. I like your simplicity. 

This is jsut purely some ramblings:

I'm not sure you will see the relation, but light is made of contrasts, positive and negative electrons.  When Positive electrons are drawn toward negative electrons, they cancel each other out and produce light.  (very simplistic description)

So,

I think the judgment of "good" as alot of us see it, it the positive electron;

and evil, is the negative electron

Both electrons have to be cancelled out, to form LIGHT.



So, when I judge a person as evil, it is a distorted perception that needs to be centered in order to be cancelled.  When I realize (or learn) that I too am evil for judging a person as evil, or for doing the same "act", the perception is drawn to the middle.

When I judge a person as good, it is a distorted perception that needs to be centered.  When I realize that I too am good, the perception is drawn to the middle.


Just as a coin from one angle looks only like a "heads", from another angle looks like a "tails" only.   But in reality it is both and also neither. 

Two people on a teeter totter are at the extreme opposites(good and evil) but when perfectly balanced, imo is an example of LIGHT (love).

So, I do see what you are saying in a lot of ways; I think through experience we learn that what we judge as good and evil is limited by perception; 

and once learned, LOVE is released/formed.   


hmmm

just thinking.

 

I'm not sure....

See, I think that is why I have a tough time with the the terms "good" and "evil".
Because it just seems like things have boiled down to "love" and "non-love" for me.

When I look back over things that I have done... I have seen the harm that has been caused by my not acting out of love. I'm learning.

Now... see, I know there are those who say that evil is not really evil.... that it's all just a perspective thing. But I don't buy that. (I'm not sure if that is what you are saying or not, I'm just putting this out there because I'm not sure if I understand you or not.) I definitely think that evil (non-love) exists as much as I'm sure that darkness exists where there is an absence of light. When the light is turned on, the darkness flees... When love enters the picture, non-love is pushed out.

Now can I perceive someone as being non-loving but in reality they are actually being loving? YES. Just as I can pereive someone as being loving when they are being the actual opposite!

But that doesn't have anything to do with (in my mind) knowing that there is a definite difference between love and non-love. I don't see it as just being a matter of perspective.
I knew someone once who insisted that evil does not exist, it's only in our minds and what we choose to create as our reality, etc. I don't buy that either. Life is. If someone murders my family member, the evil has taken place. The "non-love" has manifested itself. It is a real thing that has happened. But, I know that my family member is not really dead, because this life is not all there is. But still.. the dark thing HAS taken place. It's not a matter of perspective. It's happened. But with eyes of faith, I can look and see that my loved one has just moved onto somehwere where I can not physically be right now. And with eyes of faith, I can see the murderer as being one day, brought into the knowledge of the Lord and understanding who God is, (God is love) and this murderer will, of course, not be a murderer anymore. So in a sense.... I can understand the "evil doesn't exist" in a way, sort of.  BUT... it does exist temporally. In this earthly life that we are walking. Darkness DOES exist. But it's in a state of decay. Non-love is decaying. LOVE is what endures.


Non-love is in a state of decay.  Hey, just like our physical bodies!
Love never ends. Love endures. Just like our glorified bodies. hmm.

Non-love is decaying because it is not meant to last. The only purpose it serves is to contrast with love so we can fully understand what love is.

something like that, anyway...
 :grin:

Am I getting more and more crazy as time goes on...?

P.S. Zeek.. I think I may have misunderstood your post. I'm not sure. I need to read and think about what you've said a bit more. Something just grabbed me and made me think of previous conversations with someone in my past. I think I kind of latched onto something in your post and it made me think of that. So my response might not make any sense at all to what you just posted. I'm sorry. Sometimes one thing a person says can pull something totally out of the blue out of a person. lol. Ok... gotta ponder more on what you wrote...
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 06:27:48 AM by sparrow »
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Zeek

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #471 on: October 13, 2009, 06:40:10 AM »
Sparrow,

no biggie, I truly was just rambling.



Offline sparrow

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1830
  • I watch, & am as a sparrow alone upon the rooftop.
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #472 on: October 13, 2009, 06:46:25 AM »
Sparrow,

no biggie, I truly was just rambling.




Hey, I'm the ramble-queen.  :icon_queen:
sorry. now I'm just being silly.  :happy3:
I think I've been rambling too much tonight.
It's starting to go to my head.

I'm still thinking about what you've said though.
It's pretty darn interesting.
Thanks for posting it.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11247
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #473 on: October 13, 2009, 07:55:34 AM »
Quote from: Zeek
do you see the "good" of the tree of knowledge of "good and evil" as what we are eternally going to be?

Do you see Christ as this good branch, or do you see LOVE as a different tree altogether.


seems if this life is to learn good and evil, and the contrast; we miss the tree of life, a different tree???

People like to point out that good and evil are on the same tree.  I think the meaning of that might be that this tree is relative to man, not God.  It's very hard for us to determine what is 'good.'  Is killing 5 people to save 100  'good'?  Some might say so.  Is a new invention which is going to put 1000 people out of business but saves lives 'good'?  Is a man who is generous to strangers but stingy to his own family 'good'?  Good and evil seem to have so many contingencies associated with them and dependent on the morals of the time or the morals of the man.

But, God is righteous.  This is something totally different.  How is it different?  What does this word mean?  This is the word which should be associated with the tree of Life.  This word most accurately describes God.

1 Samuel 12:7
Now therefore stand still, that I may reason with you before the LORD of all the righteous acts of the LORD, which he did to you and to your fathers.




« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 08:00:45 AM by Molly »

Chris

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #474 on: October 13, 2009, 01:34:08 PM »

I know you don't like me answering a question with a question, but since I already feel like I answered the question a few times can I ask you how long YOU believe it will (or should) take for one to be converted and to know the Lord? 1 second? 5 minutes? 1 hour or 10? 2 days or 2 weeks? a year or two? centuries?

Why assume that it won't be instantaneous if, with God, all things are possible?

I never said anything about time frames, so not sure why you think I don't think it will be instantaneous.  Unless your question was rhetorical.

I have so many ideas, that contrast each other that at this time i'm not willing to state my beliefs, other than what we all knnow; LOVE never fails

But you did say that what I believe "makes suicide a good choice", so was it not a safe bet for me to assume that you are not agreeing with what you think I believe? Certainly, if you agreed, you wouldn't be quizzing me so much about it and making statements such as these, would you?

Besides, you also told me earlier in the conversation when I gave Paul as an example of someone who experienced the wrath of God / LoF that you did NOT agree with me. Didn't you?

So if I see that the LoF already exists as a spiritual truth and that men have already been cast into it and you disagree (which, to me, you clearly do) then you've at least said enough for me to know that, even if you have not explicitly laid out what you do or do not believe. No?

And if it doesn't exist for us now, before death, then what other choice is there but that it waits for us on the other side of it (regardless of how "long" it might last)?

So my question stands. If judgment (LoF) doesn't happen until after physical death (which is what you seem to believe, based on you disagreements with my statements that it is now experience) then how "long" do you believe it might last and what do you believe that to be based on?

If it doesn't happen until after physical death but might only last "an instant" then what is your disagreement with me based on when you say that my believing that it doesn't "continue" postmortem "makes suicide a good option". That alone makes me believe that you believe that it does continue for some time after death and is not instantaneous. Why wouldn't it?

But let me ask you something....

Does your belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior of ALL MEN make suicide a good choice for those who might commit suicide were it not for the fear of spending eternity in hell if there is one and that is the penalty they would pay for killing themselves? Take that fear away from them and you are encouraging them to commit suicide?  I ask because I was actually told this once by someone who was depressed and suicidal. He said he didn't want to believe that God would send someone into his life with "Christ" in their name to convince him to kill himself, but he didn't want to believe that I was a devil either. And now, here, you (who also believes in UR) make a very similar accusation towards me because perhaps I don't believe the LoF "lasts long enough"??

What is the difference really? A "shorter" hell after death (as opposed to an eternal one)? What we go through and experience here being separated from the love of God whether of/in ourselves or in others (or both) isn't hell enough?  :dontknow: