Author Topic: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?  (Read 37411 times)

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Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #425 on: October 13, 2009, 03:06:31 AM »
Men are still physically dying though. Does the spiritual man relate to the physical man? For instance, when I die, do you think I'll have some sort of interaction with the Earthly realm? Would I be part of the Sons of God that bring their glory to free "the creature"/the Earth from bondage?

 :cloud9: Yes, they are still dying, but when you see what His INTENTION was, you see that He never intended for us to die in the first place. This is why Paul talked about the glory within, coming without, ie. clothing this mortal with immortality. He didn't say the glory was coming via literal death.This is the purpose in the first place, of Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory. People generally have not been taught WHAT that hope IS.

Ro 6:4 - Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the GLORY of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

If there is nothing but dying and THEN being "glorified", what need to explain the "afterlife" to us in such detail, as surely we would find out then? He was not telling us how great it's going to be when we lay down this body literally, but rather telling us HOW NOT TO LAY IT DOWN AT ALL.

And so we are told such things as, "reckon yourselves dead". So, ok, if NOW I'm dead, SOMEBODY TELL ME HOW TO RESURRECT! And so Christ was sent to do just that. He was our "show and tell" on how to go to the Father and obtain life everlasting (immortality). He has life (Christ) to give AND life everlasting (Father).

Make no mistake about it, Jesus had ALREADY been to the Father, before He EVER went to the cross. And He could have told us how to do it and done nothing but miracles, but who would have believed He had mastery over death until it was too late because He had outlived THEM? He came to DEMONSTRATE that the Word of God is true, not just speak it. And the revelation of Christ that is progressively unfolding NOW, is designed for this very purpose, ie. death being swallowed up of life. Blessings....

 :2thumbs:

AMEN!!

2Co 5:14-17 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #426 on: October 13, 2009, 03:16:57 AM »
2peter3 says it much for mine Card ..

The HEAVENS and earth will be dissolved ( Old C),THE DAY is Likened to a Thousand YR, the Very same DAY who Consists of BOTH NIGHT(  OLDC) and DaY(NEWC) the Night bearing withness to HE WHO IS THE DAY...( 12 hrs in a DAY)

He Comes a Thief in the NIGHT[[ as per the Mollys post concerning the Bride\Groom ..( Jewish Custom) to take what is Rightfully HIS, to open the hearts of Men piercing the fleshy veil .,,wherein, a NEW heavens and EARTH are restored.

Christ is the DAY = 1000yrs..tis figurative... :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

 :goodpost:



So does "physical death" have power over the old covenant for those who aren't believers.   In other words, if this is the LOF as you believe Chris, and one literally dies prior to moving from old to new (dies in their sins); do you believe that his literal death is the day of his wrath, that then removes the veil of the old c? 


Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #427 on: October 13, 2009, 03:17:28 AM »
Thanks for your post to me earlier, Chris.  Sometimes it is hard to reconcile/understand our perceived inconsistencies.  I do think they're perceived - a glass darkly.

I'm not Gilbert, and he can answer for himself as to what he was referencing.  I did find these two passages that may be related.

"As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: 'I WILL GIVE YOU THE HOLY and SURE blessings OF DAVID.'

"Therefore He also says in another Psalm, 'YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.' Acts 13:34,35

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
      If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.  I Cor. 15

God's blessing, James.

Hi James, thanks. Still not sure I see those same connections in these passages, so I will wait for Gilbert to direct me elsewhere if he has something else in mind. But, in the meantime, let me ask you about how you see the verses above, if you don't mind?

In the passages in 1 Cor 15 it speaks of the last Adam as "a life-giving spirit". What does that mean to you and how do you see that in relation to "a spiritual body"? Do you see "a spiritual body" as "a body of flesh and bones"? Do you believe that, even today, Christ has "a body of flesh and bones"?

Or might it be that that which is seen (Christ's physical death and bodily resurrection) is given to us "for an example" so that we can "see" that which is not seen... in the same way that Christ's miracle, though physical in nature, were meant to show us spiritual truths about how Christ heals the blind, the deaf, the lame and even the dead - after a spiritual truth?



Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #428 on: October 13, 2009, 03:25:42 AM »
2peter3 says it much for mine Card ..

The HEAVENS and earth will be dissolved ( Old C),THE DAY is Likened to a Thousand YR, the Very same DAY who Consists of BOTH NIGHT(  OLDC) and DaY(NEWC) the Night bearing withness to HE WHO IS THE DAY...( 12 hrs in a DAY)

He Comes a Thief in the NIGHT[[ as per the Mollys post concerning the Bride\Groom ..( Jewish Custom) to take what is Rightfully HIS, to open the hearts of Men piercing the fleshy veil .,,wherein, a NEW heavens and EARTH are restored.

Christ is the DAY = 1000yrs..tis figurative... :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

 :goodpost:



So does "physical death" have power over the old covenant for those who aren't believers.   In other words, if this is the LOF as you believe Chris, and one literally dies prior to moving from old to new (dies in their sins); do you believe that his literal death is the day of his wrath, that then removes the veil of the old c? 


What does physical death have power over? I'm not sure that it has power over anything other than, perhaps, the mortal bodies in which we live. They grow old and die and decay (return to dust). That is true of both believers and unbelievers, is it not?

If the lake of fire is "now" (as I believe, as the scriptures says that we are recompensed "in the earth") then I am not sure why you are asking me if I believe that a man's literal (physical) death is "the day of his wrath"?

The wrath of God abides upon those who believe not (John 3:36). As I see it, this is as much a present tense reality as "eternal life" is.


Zeek

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #429 on: October 13, 2009, 03:28:32 AM »
2peter3 says it much for mine Card ..

The HEAVENS and earth will be dissolved ( Old C),THE DAY is Likened to a Thousand YR, the Very same DAY who Consists of BOTH NIGHT(  OLDC) and DaY(NEWC) the Night bearing withness to HE WHO IS THE DAY...( 12 hrs in a DAY)

He Comes a Thief in the NIGHT[[ as per the Mollys post concerning the Bride\Groom ..( Jewish Custom) to take what is Rightfully HIS, to open the hearts of Men piercing the fleshy veil .,,wherein, a NEW heavens and EARTH are restored.

Christ is the DAY = 1000yrs..tis figurative... :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

 :goodpost:



So does "physical death" have power over the old covenant for those who aren't believers.   In other words, if this is the LOF as you believe Chris, and one literally dies prior to moving from old to new (dies in their sins); do you believe that his literal death is the day of his wrath, that then removes the veil of the old c? 


What does physical death have power over? I'm not sure that it has power over anything other than, perhaps, the mortal bodies in which we live. They grow old and die and decay (return to dust). That is true of both believers and unbelievers, is it not?

If the lake of fire is "now" (as I believe, as the scriptures says that we are recompensed "in the earth") then I am not sure why you are asking me if I believe that a man's literal (physical) death is "the day of his wrath"?

The wrath of God abides upon those who believe not (John 3:36). As I see it, this is as much a present tense reality as "eternal life" is.



Oh, i have a hard time asking my questions in a way that you understand where i am coming from.   hmm


I'll try again, when does one who in this "literal life" did not believe in HIM, and KNOW HIM; bow and confess Jessus Christ is Lord?? 

I assumed u thot the LOF was the process for a person to come to this "bowing"? 

Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #430 on: October 13, 2009, 03:30:28 AM »
or another way to ask this?? 

will the LOF continue for a person after that person literally dies, if he never confessed Jesus Christ as Lord while literally alive?

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #431 on: October 13, 2009, 03:35:30 AM »

Oh, i have a hard time asking my questions in a way that you understand where i am coming from.   hmm


I'll try again, when does one who in this "literal life" did not believe in HIM, and KNOW HIM; bow and confess Jessus Christ is Lord?? 

I assumed u thot the LOF was the process for a person to come to this "bowing"? 

How does one bow and confess "Jesus Christ is Lord" if they do not know Him?

Even if the LoF is the process by/through which we come to know Christ as Lord (and I do believe that it is) we have to pass through the fire first, don't we? Or do you believe that we bow and confess Christ as Lord WHILE we "believe not the Son" (as that is upon whom the wrath of God abides)? How is that possible?


Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #432 on: October 13, 2009, 03:40:57 AM »

Oh, i have a hard time asking my questions in a way that you understand where i am coming from.   hmm


I'll try again, when does one who in this "literal life" did not believe in HIM, and KNOW HIM; bow and confess Jessus Christ is Lord?? 

I assumed u thot the LOF was the process for a person to come to this "bowing"? 

How does one bow and confess "Jesus Christ is Lord" if they do not know Him?

Even if the LoF is the process by/through which we come to know Christ as Lord (and I do believe that it is) we have to pass through the fire first, don't we? Or do you believe that we bow and confess Christ as Lord WHILE we "believe not the Son" (as that is upon whom the wrath of God abides)? How is that possible?



OK, i just wish you would answer a question without a question.   :)


Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #433 on: October 13, 2009, 03:41:44 AM »
I'll try asking another way.

Do you believe there is further judgment after one literally dies if they did not know Christ through faith while they were literally alive?

Gilbert

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #434 on: October 13, 2009, 03:45:50 AM »

Hi!
Maybe you should inquiring about the following points:
We know that Jesus was not preoccupied much with his physical flesh, correct?
However, we also know that angels were guarding the physical body of Jesus laying in the tomb during the three days He was liberating Sheol, right?
Why would the angels be guarding/protecting the body of Jesus from the powers of death and decay if it was not needful to have Him re-claim it later?

Paul says: "Jesus Christ died and rose again with a glorified body". With tremendous power His spiritual body absorbed or 'put on' the physical body which was dead. The spiritual body swallowed up the natural body. Now He has a glorified body. The body which lay in the grave of Joseph of Arimathea, has been absorbed by the spiritual body of Jesus, and by that power has been rejuvenized to life and has been taken up in the spiritual body.

Gilbert,

Would you mind referencing the verses to which you are referring with regard to what I highlighted in red text?

Thanks!!

Chris

"And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain", John 20:12
"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" Acts 2:24-28 (especially v27)

You are absolutely correct in seeking clarification of my comment: "Jesus Christ died and rose again with a glorified body".
I mistakenly phrased it.
Sorry 'bout that.  :dontknow:
I was thinking more specifically of, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him", (1Thess 4:13-18), and mistyped it.

In any event, the point I was trying to make is this:
For Jesus, (and for us as well), dying does not mean being powerless.
Similar to life continuing in this visible world when we are sleeping, life continues on in the invisible world in much the same manner.
Even though Jesus was 'dead', (asleep in God), He remained active and alive in the invisible world. Thus we see Him preaching in Sheol.
Those who are 'asleep in the Lord', continue to exist, think, and act in the spiritual world. But a moment will come when they will be in a position to function again in the natural world with their spiritual bodies. And that is resurrection.
Resurrection means that our spiritual body will again be given power to manifest itself in the natural world. "And so the Lord will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep".
The Lord will come with those who have fallen asleep and are capable of becoming active in the natural world again. Now, that is when they rise. A natural body is laid in the grave, is sown like seed, and a spiritual body is resurrected.
Paul does not say in 1Corinthians 15 that the natural body is raised. He says: "A spiritual body is raised from the dead". The body that lies in the grave is not raised, but only our spiritual body.
And that spiritual body remains with those who have died and are with the Lord.
Then Jesus will return with those whose spiritual body is capable of becoming active again in the natural world, just as He himself did. He was also able to appear to people. After His resurrection He was able to eat; He ate fish?
The Spirit who caused Jesus to be raised from the dead is the same Spirit who will also make our body, ( or, will so glorify our spiritual body), that we will be able to function again in this natural, visible world.

Those who have fallen asleep in Christ will be given the same power as Jesus Christ. They will be able to show themselves in the world just like He did. This is rising from your sleep. And those who have fallen asleep and who have been raised and who are able to manifest themselves, He will take them with him. Where will they go? To the earth. "Whenever Christ appears, whenever Christ becomes visible, then that is the coming. When He comes, He will also show himself. When Jesus rose from the dead and He had not yet ascended to heaven, then He appeared. When He appears, then He will be visible.

"Whenever Christ appears, who is our life, we will also appear with Him in glory". That is the promise. Those who have fallen asleep will appear with Him in glory. They are the cloud He comes on, the cloud He is in. He is in the midst or between the saints who have fallen asleep and who now have the power to become visible. "See He comes with the clouds." And they come as a cloud and every eye will see Him. And the eyes of the people will also see those who had fallen asleep.

Again, I am sorry about the mis-type.

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #435 on: October 13, 2009, 03:47:00 AM »
or another way to ask this?? 

will the LOF continue for a person after that person literally dies, if he never confessed Jesus Christ as Lord while literally alive?

No, I don't believe so.

Read the following passage with the thought in your mind that "the dead in Christ" (those who sleep) are not saints/believers who have physically died and who are awaiting a physical resurrection from a physical grave, but are among those who are physically alive who "remain unto the coming of the Lord":

1Th 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

If "the dead in Christ" are men and not corpses and they are those upon whom the wrath of God already abides, then it doesn't sound to me like Paul is telling us to comfort on another with the thought that they will continue to suffer the wrath of God, right? (If, in fact, Paul is speaking about men here and not corpses - or sleeping souls.)

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #436 on: October 13, 2009, 03:50:40 AM »

Oh, i have a hard time asking my questions in a way that you understand where i am coming from.   hmm


I'll try again, when does one who in this "literal life" did not believe in HIM, and KNOW HIM; bow and confess Jessus Christ is Lord?? 

I assumed u thot the LOF was the process for a person to come to this "bowing"? 

How does one bow and confess "Jesus Christ is Lord" if they do not know Him?

Even if the LoF is the process by/through which we come to know Christ as Lord (and I do believe that it is) we have to pass through the fire first, don't we? Or do you believe that we bow and confess Christ as Lord WHILE we "believe not the Son" (as that is upon whom the wrath of God abides)? How is that possible?



OK, i just wish you would answer a question without a question.   :)


It wasn't a yes or no question. You were asking me for an example of something that I never said and for which I can't even imagine there is an example. How else could I answered it, except to tell you that I don't have one and to ask you if you know of one?

Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #437 on: October 13, 2009, 03:51:10 AM »
or another way to ask this?? 

will the LOF continue for a person after that person literally dies, if he never confessed Jesus Christ as Lord while literally alive?

No, I don't believe so.


So then "literal death" stops the fire??

that's what i meant by it has power over the old cov mindset.  One literally dies, then he has been purged.  


??

Zeek

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #438 on: October 13, 2009, 03:54:14 AM »

Oh, i have a hard time asking my questions in a way that you understand where i am coming from.   hmm


I'll try again, when does one who in this "literal life" did not believe in HIM, and KNOW HIM; bow and confess Jessus Christ is Lord?? 

I assumed u thot the LOF was the process for a person to come to this "bowing"? 

How does one bow and confess "Jesus Christ is Lord" if they do not know Him?

Even if the LoF is the process by/through which we come to know Christ as Lord (and I do believe that it is) we have to pass through the fire first, don't we? Or do you believe that we bow and confess Christ as Lord WHILE we "believe not the Son" (as that is upon whom the wrath of God abides)? How is that possible?



OK, i just wish you would answer a question without a question.   :)


It wasn't a yes or no question. You were asking me for an example of something that I never said and for which I can't even imagine there is an example. How else could I answered it, except to tell you that I don't have one and to ask you if you know of one?

Ok.  I just am having a hard time seeing how one is "purged" if he literally dies, without faith.  This happens all the time. 

Yet you say u don't think LOF continues beyond "literal life", so the only thing I can think of that stopped the fire; is literal death.  Which if what i perceive of your belief (which is a perception, and likely not what u r saying) is that you mix physical (literal death) with spiritual. 

suicide seems like a good option, with what I percieve you to believe.


Gilbert

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #439 on: October 13, 2009, 03:54:41 AM »
or another way to ask this?? 

will the LOF continue for a person after that person literally dies, if he never confessed Jesus Christ as Lord while literally alive?

No, I don't believe so.


So then "literal death" stops the fire??

that's what i meant by it has power over the old cov mindset.  One literally dies, then he has been purged.  


??

Could I prevail on your patience please?
Could you tell me if there is a Post in here that might largely resolve the issue of substance/form of the 'Lake of Fire', please? Well, what I mean is what might be the general consensus in here regarding it.
I would be very interested to read it should it exist.
Thanks!

Zeek

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #440 on: October 13, 2009, 03:58:03 AM »
or another way to ask this?? 

will the LOF continue for a person after that person literally dies, if he never confessed Jesus Christ as Lord while literally alive?

No, I don't believe so.


So then "literal death" stops the fire??

that's what i meant by it has power over the old cov mindset.  One literally dies, then he has been purged.  


??

Could I prevail on your patience please?
Could you tell me if there is a Post in here that might largely resolve the issue of substance/form of the 'Lake of Fire', please? Well, what I mean is what might be the general consensus in here regarding it.
I would be very interested to read it should it exist.
Thanks!

interesting question.  There are many views on what the LOF is. 

But i'd be willing to bet that first centrury saints had a pretty good idea what was ABOUT/shortly to happen to them. 

Chris

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #441 on: October 13, 2009, 04:00:13 AM »

Gilbert,

Would you mind referencing the verses to which you are referring with regard to what I highlighted in red text?

Thanks!!

Chris

"And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain", John 20:12
"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" Acts 2:24-28 (especially v27)

You take that to mean that they were there for the purpose of guarding/protecting Christ's body from the power of death and/or decay?

You are absolutely correct in seeking clarification of my comment: "Jesus Christ died and rose again with a glorified body".
I mistakenly phrased it.
Sorry 'bout that.  :dontknow:
I was thinking more specifically of, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him", (1Thess 4:13-18), and mistyped it.

In any event, the point I was trying to make is this:
For Jesus, (and for us as well), dying does not mean being powerless.
Similar to life continuing in this visible world when we are sleeping, life continues on in the invisible world in much the same manner.
Even though Jesus was 'dead', (asleep in God), He remained active and alive in the invisible world. Thus we see Him preaching in Sheol.
Those who are 'asleep in the Lord', continue to exist, think, and act in the spiritual world. But a moment will come when they will be in a position to function again in the natural world with their spiritual bodies. And that is resurrection.
Resurrection means that our spiritual body will again be given power to manifest itself in the natural world. "And so the Lord will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep".
The Lord will come with those who have fallen asleep and are capable of becoming active in the natural world again. Now, that is when they rise. A natural body is laid in the grave, is sown like seed, and a spiritual body is resurrected.
Paul does not say in 1Corinthians 15 that the natural body is raised. He says: "A spiritual body is raised from the dead". The body that lies in the grave is not raised, but only our spiritual body.
And that spiritual body remains with those who have died and are with the Lord.
Then Jesus will return with those whose spiritual body is capable of becoming active again in the natural world, just as He himself did. He was also able to appear to people. After His resurrection He was able to eat; He ate fish?
The Spirit who caused Jesus to be raised from the dead is the same Spirit who will also make our body, ( or, will so glorify our spiritual body), that we will be able to function again in this natural, visible world.

Those who have fallen asleep in Christ will be given the same power as Jesus Christ. They will be able to show themselves in the world just like He did. This is rising from your sleep. And those who have fallen asleep and who have been raised and who are able to manifest themselves, He will take them with him. Where will they go? To the earth. "Whenever Christ appears, whenever Christ becomes visible, then that is the coming. When He comes, He will also show himself. When Jesus rose from the dead and He had not yet ascended to heaven, then He appeared. When He appears, then He will be visible.

"Whenever Christ appears, who is our life, we will also appear with Him in glory". That is the promise. Those who have fallen asleep will appear with Him in glory. They are the cloud He comes on, the cloud He is in. He is in the midst or between the saints who have fallen asleep and who now have the power to become visible. "See He comes with the clouds." And they come as a cloud and every eye will see Him. And the eyes of the people will also see those who had fallen asleep.

Again, I am sorry about the mis-type.

No problem, thanks for clarifying.

You and I see "those who sleep" very differently. I do not see them as those who have died physically, but those who are "dead" (asleep) in sin.

I see "the natural body" according to "the outward man" (the first man) and "the spiritual body" according to "the inward man" (the second man; the Lord from heaven) so I don't  understand those passages in the same way that you do. Thanks, again, for the clarification.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #442 on: October 13, 2009, 04:05:16 AM »
I fully expect to go through more purifying after my physical body has died. I don't fear this. I welcome it. I can see myself looking over my life and seeing my missteps being pointed out in a loving way. I can see myself understanding how "love" in different situations would have prevented harm and hurt. I almost WELCOME this because I keep looking back already and seeing things I wish I'd done differently and thinking about how if I'd been more loving... etc. which pushes me to be more loving NOW. That is why I see the "lake of fire" as a good thing. As something that we walk through now and we walk through after this life. I say the more you can walk through it now the better. I don't know if that even makes sense, but it's the only way I can word it, I guess.  :dontknow:

This isn't a "oh you are so terrible!!!" type of thing... but more of an instructional, God holding my hand and helping me to learn MORE about HIM through the actions of MY life. The more we allow His love to permeate our being... the more we are becoming who we were always meant to be, and WILL be.

Maybe I'm wrong about all of this.
But I don't really see the point if this DOESN'T happen.
This world is a schoolyard.
Seems to me the most learning is actually going to happen AFTER we go home.

well, just some thoughts.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #443 on: October 13, 2009, 04:08:32 AM »
I fully expect to go through more purifying after my physical body has died. I don't fear this. I welcome it. I can see myself looking over my life and seeing my missteps being pointed out in a loving way. I can see myself understanding how "love" in different situations would have prevented harm and hurt. I almost WELCOME this because I keep looking back already and seeing things I wish I'd done differently and thinking about how if I'd been more loving... etc. which pushes me to be more loving NOW. That is why I see the "lake of fire" as a good thing. As something that we walk through now and we walk through after this life. I say the more you can walk through it now the better. I don't know if that even makes sense, but it's the only way I can word it, I guess.  :dontknow:

This isn't a "oh you are so terrible!!!" type of thing... but more of an instructional, God holding my hand and helping me to learn MORE about HIM through the actions of MY life. The more we allow His love to permeate our being... the more we are becoming who we were always meant to be, and WILL be.

Maybe I'm wrong about all of this.
But I don't really see the point if this DOESN'T happen.
This world is a schoolyard.
Seems to me the most learning is actually going to happen AFTER we go home.

well, just some thoughts.


So you see the continuing "purifying" being done after this literal life, for what you did when you were literally alive??

or

do you think you will still be carnal in the next "life"?

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #444 on: October 13, 2009, 04:11:09 AM »
or another way to ask this?? 

will the LOF continue for a person after that person literally dies, if he never confessed Jesus Christ as Lord while literally alive?

No, I don't believe so.



So then "literal death" stops the fire??

that's what i meant by it has power over the old cov mindset.  One literally dies, then he has been purged.  


??

I still don't know what you mean by death having "power over the old cov mindset". I can see that in connection to "death" if one abides in it (after a spiritual truth), but I'm not seeing what it has to do with physical death.  :mblush:

As I see it, we must die so that we can live. It is by dying to the flesh / the natural man / the carnal mind that we are able to be born of the spirit and "know God".

If Paul, the chief of sinners, can be converted in an instant when coming face to face with the Lord, I can't image that I or anyone else would be any different.

In this world we are subject to vanity, we are subject to the things of this world and to the lust of the flesh, etc. I do not believe that we take that with us out of this world.

Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #445 on: October 13, 2009, 04:13:30 AM »
ok. 

Am i correct in my understanding of your belief; that if one literally dies without faith in Christ, that there is no more judgment for that person post mortem?


Offline rosered

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #446 on: October 13, 2009, 04:19:13 AM »
I fully expect to go through more purifying after my physical body has died. I don't fear this. I welcome it. I can see myself looking over my life and seeing my missteps being pointed out in a loving way. I can see myself understanding how "love" in different situations would have prevented harm and hurt. I almost WELCOME this because I keep looking back already and seeing things I wish I'd done differently and thinking about how if I'd been more loving... etc. which pushes me to be more loving NOW. That is why I see the "lake of fire" as a good thing. As something that we walk through now and we walk through after this life. I say the more you can walk through it now the better. I don't know if that even makes sense, but it's the only way I can word it, I guess.  :dontknow:

This isn't a "oh you are so terrible!!!" type of thing... but more of an instructional, God holding my hand and helping me to learn MORE about HIM through the actions of MY life. The more we allow His love to permeate our being... the more we are becoming who we were always meant to be, and WILL be.

Maybe I'm wrong about all of this.
But I don't really see the point if this DOESN'T happen.
This world is a schoolyard.
Seems to me the most learning is actually going to happen AFTER we go home.

well, just some thoughts.


  I so see this much the same way  sis !
  I know that the Lord is with us  
 and  that part of us is awakened to Him ,now .
 and I know He  was with me all along I just was not aware of Him [sleep state of being ]
 just as many are called from the dead /sleep to life [HIM]  
 
  just like many are  now are awakened /aware of the Lords presence in our lives
 and Is teaching and correcting us  with love ,as it is written  
 I do think we will contiune to Grow  after the mortal body is  done away with entirely  :thumbsup:
  I do  Believe  JESUS/ Father  IS A FIRE consuming and do see this as positive also  :icon_flower:
   :HeartThrob:  rose

Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #447 on: October 13, 2009, 04:19:51 AM »
or another way to ask this?? 

will the LOF continue for a person after that person literally dies, if he never confessed Jesus Christ as Lord while literally alive?

No, I don't believe so.



So then "literal death" stops the fire??

that's what i meant by it has power over the old cov mindset.  One literally dies, then he has been purged.  


??


In this world we are subject to vanity, we are subject to the things of this world and to the lust of the flesh, etc. I do not believe that we take that with us out of this world.

So literal death is the end of the vanity? if you haven't passed from old to new while literally alive.  


Offline rosered

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #448 on: October 13, 2009, 04:25:35 AM »
ok. 

Am i correct in my understanding of your belief; that if one literally dies without faith in Christ, that there is no more judgment for that person post mortem?


  Hi Zeek ,
   to die a death  without faith
  Like my 20 year old brother did , not knowing God  or very little  about God He died  without  sin the was no Law to condemn  him 

  you cannot be   guilty  were there was no law applied  ..  what is the purpose of man anyways ?
 
 when I was  in my 30s and going to a hell fire church  , i did worry about my little brothers soul
 
  but after the Lord come and taught me His Truth and LOve   , and gave me the most comforting dream concerning my brother
  I have rested in  Gods grace and hope for all  humanity 
 
  when we are convicted  of sin this is the law   leading us to repentance  and   repentance     leads  us to Christ / forgiveness
  His mercy is what does change our minds and thoughts
 
   in  love   :HeartThrob: rose
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 04:29:48 AM by rosered »

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #449 on: October 13, 2009, 04:25:52 AM »

Oh, i have a hard time asking my questions in a way that you understand where i am coming from.   hmm


I'll try again, when does one who in this "literal life" did not believe in HIM, and KNOW HIM; bow and confess Jessus Christ is Lord?? 

I assumed u thot the LOF was the process for a person to come to this "bowing"? 

How does one bow and confess "Jesus Christ is Lord" if they do not know Him?

Even if the LoF is the process by/through which we come to know Christ as Lord (and I do believe that it is) we have to pass through the fire first, don't we? Or do you believe that we bow and confess Christ as Lord WHILE we "believe not the Son" (as that is upon whom the wrath of God abides)? How is that possible?



OK, i just wish you would answer a question without a question.   :)


It wasn't a yes or no question. You were asking me for an example of something that I never said and for which I can't even imagine there is an example. How else could I answered it, except to tell you that I don't have one and to ask you if you know of one?

Ok.  I just am having a hard time seeing how one is "purged" if he literally dies, without faith.  This happens all the time. 

Yet you say u don't think LOF continues beyond "literal life", so the only thing I can think of that stopped the fire; is literal death.  Which if what i perceive of your belief (which is a perception, and likely not what u r saying) is that you mix physical (literal death) with spiritual. 

suicide seems like a good option, with what I percieve you to believe.



Well, I don't feel like I am "mixing" them, but "dividing" between them. It is not the pattern/figure/shadow/type (that which is seen, whatever one might call it) that I am concerned with. It is that which is not seen (to which these things point/reveal) that I am trying to focus on, since this is what we are told we should be focusing on.

Neither do I go around telling people to just kill themselves, as this would be "a good option".  :sigh:

Though I believe, just as Paul did, that to die would be "gain" and "far better". And, as for me, I am quite ready to go whenever my time comes - even hoping (sometimes) that my time come SOONER rather than later.  :winkgrin: