Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?

[sparrow]

Hi there,
My questions are in red.
(If you have time to answer.)

For one example...If I love Jesus and the people with whom I have to associate (an inward thing) and lay my hands on the sick (an outward thing based on an inward thing) they shall recover (an outward glory reigning.)  The gifts of the Spirit (spiritual s) are an earnest of the actual inheritance, a foretaste of the glory promising the greater glory that is to come:  a resurrection body that never needs healing.

If I love Jesus and the people I HAVE to (why "have to"?)

 associate with (an inward thing) (why do you say "an inward thing"?)

and lay my hands on the sick (an outward thing based on an inward thing) - What are you saying here? You are literally laying your physical hands on sick people? Or are you talking metaphorically? if so... what do you mean? and why do you say "an outward thing based on an inward thing" What is the outward thing and what is the inward thing?


they shall recover (an outward glory reigning.) (are you talking literal people with illnesses and you are healing literal physical illness? or are you saying by talking with people about God you are helping them to move from spiritual illness into spiritual health?)

What is "outward glory reigning" mean to you?

The gifts of the Spirit (spiritual s) - what is a "spiritual s"?


are an earnest of the actual inheritance, a foretaste of the glory promising the greater glory that is to come:  a resurrection body that never needs healing.
- What is the "foretaste"?

[peacemaker]

Now ya wanna re-think your position?

There is a sharp contrast between an earlier and later work, somewhat like, red-strawberries standing in vivid contrast against the snow. And the rational of the soul, alone, will not capture the essence of the Spirit; the true, real, or invariable nature of a thing, whereas, light is contrasted clearly with a profoundly dark background of flesh and blood.

peacemaker


1 CORINTHIANS 15

I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and wherein you stand; by which also you are given life, if you keep in memory what I preached to you, unless you have believed in vain.

For I delivered to you first of all, that which I also received, how that Christ died because of our sins (not his) according to the Scriptures. And that he was buried, but that he also rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. And that he was "seen" of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was "seen" by over five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain until this present day, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was "seen" of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was "seen" of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, and am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the true church of God. But by the grace of Him, "I am what I am" and His grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Therefore, whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so you believed. Now, if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, "how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?" But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen, either. And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also in vain.

Indeed, we will be found out to be a false witness of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so, be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then, is not Christ raised? And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; you are yet in your sins. Then they also which are dead with Christ are perished.

If in this life only, we have hope in Christ, "we are of all men most miserable." But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that died. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. "For as in Adam all die, even so, in Christ shall all be made alive." But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then comes the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, until he has put all enemies under his feet.

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death! "For he has put all things under his feet." But when he says that all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then, shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all?
Why are they then baptized for the dead? And why stand us in jeopardy every hour?

I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our LORD, "I die daily."
If after the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me, if the dead rise not?  For "Let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die."  Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Awake to righteousness and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: "I speak this to your shame."

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up?
And with what body do they come?

"You fool, that which you sow is not quickened, except it die."

And that which you sow, you sow not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain. But God gives it a body, as it has pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the "glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another."

There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differs from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

"There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

And so it is written: "The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

And as "we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."

Now, this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I show you a mystery; "We shall not all remain dead, we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump for the trumpet shall sound and those that have died shall be raised incorruptible, and shall be changed." For this corruptible, must put on incorruption, and this mortal, must put on immortality. So, when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then, shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."

O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING? O GRAVE, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY?

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, unchanging, always abounding in the work of the Lord, for as much as you know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

[Emphasis are mine and slightly paraphrased]

Indeed, if Christ is not risen, then the preaching of the Gospel is empty, and so is your faith. The death of Adam/Eve must be the same death (individually) that people are resurrected from by way of Christ. In the day you eat from the tree of knowledge is the day you die spiritually, and the day you die physically is the resurrection of the dead who died; Spiritually. Or can you not see, that you will not be born again in the flesh, per se, but by the Spirit?

[martincisneros]

Do you believe there will also be a time when we are LITERALLY any more in Jesus' presence than we are now?  I.e., will you ever see His glorified immortal body with your glorified immortal eyes?  If so, that's part of where I'm saying 'both'...

I was a dispensational premillenialist until the summer of 2006 when Lord Jesus started blurting things out of me thru my own preaching that were RADICAL about His coming not being 'til after the millenium.  I was so theologically ignorant of different views regarding the millenium, that I didn't know there was something besides premillenialism and amillenialism, i.e., a third theological critter called "postmillenialism" so I thought that the interpretation of other tongues that was flowing thru me was all original fresh manna for about a week there 'cause it was reconciling too many things for me and dealing with the "gap theories" that I was already finding deeply problematic, i.e. gap theory in first two or three verses of Genesis 1, gap theory between the resurrections that didn't square well with many, many passages that would describe a simultaneous resurrection of the righteous and the wicked, gap theories on the reigning of the saints held by some, etc. 

It didn't occur to me 'til after He'd already made me firmly break with premillenialism in '07 with finally defining Postmillenialism for me with a few google searches that it dawned on me how Anti Anointed One and Anti His Anointing that premillenialism was, and why many folks would receive their healings and miracles, including financial, and then lose them fairly quickly within months afterwards, etc.  The fly in the ointment against Holy Spirit that's very dogmatically against Holy Spirit is premillenialism 'cause you keep following that demonic trail and you inevitably come to the cessationist conclusions of those who buy into that heresy, i.e. that God don't do nuthin' about nuthin' and those that claim He does in this life are dellusional, mistaken, or into psychic and demonic phenomenon with lying signs and wonders. 

When I believed in the premillenial bit of nonsense, I couldn't understand how they could be right about their premillenialism and yet so utterly hopelessly wrong about the move of Holy Spirit in the earth that's been going on since the beginning of the Church Age in Genesis 12, according to when the book of Acts will describe the beginning of the Church age with talking about the Ecclesia that was in the wilderness which obviously implies a 4,000yr old Church rather than 2000.  Now that I see, Biblically, thru the left behind lies, I can understand why premillenialism resisted Holy Spirit so strongly in anyone that's ever been a consistent dispensational premillenialist 'cause it inevitably leads to keeping Holy Spirit grieved all of the days of one's life 'cause it's a perpetually resisting to Him anti theology.

A next age(s) when the lamb is lying with the lion, etc.  A time when our faith will have become sight.

That's this age, by the way.  Isaiah, Hosea, and numerous other books of the Bible, including Romans and other New Testament works put the Gospel dispensation to the animals prior to the restoration of Israel to Christ.  The passage you alluded to from Isaiah 11 about the animals at peace with one another happens prior to the millenium because going into that chapter with talking about the 7 spirits of God, or the 7 anointings, really, when you study it out, it mentions a piece of the full armor of God.  Why armor if the devil's already been bound a thousand years?  Lots of other proofs I could get into about that to demonstrate that's "premillenially" although I don't believe in a premillenial return of Christ Jesus in the way that Acts 1:11 describes.

"...Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."  Acts 1:11

That's after the millenium with the "White Throne Judgment" if not all of the way into Revelation 21: either verse 2 or 3 where it says "Now is the Tabernacle of God with men" which takes you back to John's Gospel chapter 1 about the Word having become flesh and walked, or Tabernacled among us.  That statement in Revelation 21 evidently indicates the Tabernacle being among men in a way that it hadn't previously been among men, otherwise a waste of Words in the light of all of Paul's Gospel about our being the Temple.  So, obviously a reference to THE Christ, i.e. the "suzerain" as the Concordant would translate it, being among the Christs of God in the earth. 

Dispensational Premillenialism is dogmatically a poison because it inserts it's comical gap theories into when we're the Anointeds, the Sons of the Living God that 1John chapters 2 and 3 and various chapters in St. Paul's writings dogmatically declare is right now and more is to follow as the Written Word grows in our hearts beyond a hundredfold rather than some eschatological event when the Lord of lords is among us again.  However, I do get deeply concerned at any implication that the Christ within us that's the hope of ages and generations finally coming forth in fullness in proportion to our thanksgiving (Colossians 2:6-7; 3:17) and abiding in the Written Word (Psalm 149; John 15:7; Colossians 3:16; 1John 2:5-6, et. al.) in any way displaces, sets aside, or disproves the actual return of Lord Jesus spoken of in Acts 1:11. 

Yes, Psalm 82 is dogmatically about us as Christians and definitely to this generation and beyond of Christians and "god" in the last verse of Psalm 82 very likely shouldn't have been capitalized at all because it's not talking about the Most High in that verse.  That's true, but the cherubim of the Ark that appeared in Acts 1 declaring that this same Jesus that's evaporated into the heaven of heavens is LITERALLY returning as well, and 1Thessalonians 4 describes in the language of the Roman culture the going out of the people to meet their returning Sovereign and to immediately escort Him into the community.  1Thessalonians 4 seems to radically include the idea that the dead in Christ, which could include those that died thru Christ, i.e. Second Death, accompany Him into the New Earth celebrating His exaltation, so that the death lived/endured/whatever, i.e. the duration of the sentence upon the executed in the Lake of Fire doesn't necessarily have to be until the close of the reign of Christ Jesus. 

But that perhaps that execution in the Lake of Fire was the very catalyst to shatter the yoke of iniquity and unbelief from their lives so that they gladly and gleefully bow the knee to Christ Jesus.  Some may find that problematic 'cause then who are these described as outside of the city in the closing two chapters of Revelation, but first we've got the passage describing the Lake as a part of His making all things new, and additionally if there's going to be procreation on the New Earth, obviously there are going to still be various levels to be matured thru of David's restored Tabernacle of outer court and holy of holies.  And John's reference to dogs and those that love lies being outside of the city could have been a reference to in John's Day, i.e. 2000 years ago, if I'm remembering the prophesy correctly 'cause with the last two chapters of Revelation, he's sorta starting to come out of this trance, bodily, and there's the comment about not sealing the Words of this prophecy 'cause the time is near, but if folks are going to be fools, let 'em continue to be fools, that's alright 'cause we reign to the ages of ages anyway and there's all of the time planned and provided for within which it'll be accomplished that all of Creation rejoices and sings to Him as is described in Revelation 5:13 and Revelation 15 with the Song of Moses.

In closing, I like to refer folks to this writing by a Calvinist that's not at odds in the least in the way this presentation [at this link] shaped out with a Winchesterian view of UR, for those that have read Winchester's Dialogues on the Universal Restoration that aren't Scripturally looking for the Universal Restoration until AFTER the "last judgment" takes place, which we obviously believe to be a comma rather than a period if we're looking at absolutely all of the Biblical promises of both destruction and restoration to be fulfilled.  Because I've had people privately email me and say that they were on the same page with me on everything I was saying, if I could just give them something Scripturally solid on Revelation 19 that didn't require the premillenialist's view of tons and tons of horse manure falling from the sky as the heavens rolled back as a scroll for the King of glory to come in the way that they would interpret Psalm 24, yet again, that was Scripturally solidly built on the Rock. 

People really miss the part about seeing heaven opened in Revelation 19, but hopefully if folks don't read anything at this link but that closing second appendix, then it'll help with getting rid of the misnomer that the Premillenialists in any way are the ones that take Scripture literally while we're just all a bunch of allegorizing heretics like Origen.  No, the Scriptures taken literally and consistently are Postmillenial in their view of the coming of Lord Jesus.  And after explaining the 3 major millenial views and how Pre and Amill fall short of the Scriptures being taken consistently and literally, this writing does happen to give you something really really good on Revelation 19 as it's closing appendix:

http://www.berith.org/essays/esch

I love most of what's been coming out on the boards here recently, but while expecting all power and authority to be manifested thru ourselves as we press in further and further with the Written Word beyond the veil with our thanksgiving, worship, and obedience -- we can't drop this foundational New Testament truth that Lord Jesus not only manifests thru us in absolute fullness in the days ahead for all of those that are more committed to Him and His Written Word than their limited views, but that He's likewise personally and physically returning, and I will add the word "soon."

[jabcat]

Really like your post, Martin.  Much of it bears witness with me, some I'll need to dwell on.

Thanks!  James.

[Gilbert]

The kingdom of heavens points to the realm.  The kingdom of God points to the ruler of that realm.  The kingdom now is and is yet to come.  The living foundation of His presiding presence is established in our inner realm of us His temple; then, the manifestation of the glory of His presiding presence is established in our outer realms through us His temple.  Jesus taught us to pray, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, in earth as it is in heaven."  The New Jerusalem is from the realm of the mind of God "descending out of heavens from God" into manifestation to fill the whole earth with His glory.  As a pregnacy, it is an evidenced expectation, "Christ in us:  the hope of glory."  As a birth and a new presence in the world, so is us in Christ:  the glory revealed.  Scripture says of Joseph, "Until his word came, the word of the LORD tried him."  The prophetic suffers for a future word.  It is planted in them to be born in the world.


(Sorry I didn't work as hard at writing the above as I did the little piece about the kingdom being now.  I'm having a trial in several areas.  When we believe God is love?)

Hi!

You wrote: "The kingdom of heavens points to the realm. The kingdom of God points to the ruler of that realm.  The kingdom now is and is yet to come".

i would like to add the following comment:
The Kingdom of Heaven (literally: Kingdom of the heavens) is better visualized as a climate or atmosphere ... after all, it is invisible and not attached to time/place. The Kingdom of Heaven denotes the entire spiritual world (aka: 'world of the spirits').

There are two opposing realms in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Light and Darkness.
Kingdom of Light (aka: kingdom of God)
Kingdom of Darkness (aka: kingdom of the evil one).

If you research the Genesis account paying particular attention to the word derivatives, you will note that the word 'heavens' denotes something like an inverse bowl.

Another surprising thing you will note, (although totally off subject), is that the Genesis account of creation specifically speaks about an ever-expanding universe ... something which scientists only recently have discovered for themselves.
 

[sheila]

 Did Jesus preach to the dead while dead?

   I have to say 'yes'....how and in what manner,you may ask.

    He preached to the dead[the wicked generation] when the

   sign of Jonah was given to them in testimony.

    3 days in the grave or the belly of the fish

      Matthew 12;39a wicked an adulterous generation seeks a

  miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign

of the prophet Jonah.For as Jonah was three days and three

nights in the belly of a huge fish,so the Son of Man will be three

 days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


   So, yes!!!! By all means He preached to the dead while dead!

   For that is the SIGN of the SON OF MAN..the only one given to

  that wicked generation

[Cardinal]

  This is going to be a kind of general disagreement with several posts, so not singling anyone out.

The first thing I want to say again is that I do not believe Jesus the man is going to make another appearance in His flesh. Again, the pattern of the Tabernacle of Moses, shows us that the "millennium" that nearly everyone in Christendom takes as literal, is shown in the pattern of the Holy of Holies measurements which are 10 X 10 X 10 = 1000.

Each of the compartments represents a period of time that has literally happened, such as the inner court represents the 2 days or 2000 years of Pentecost we are in, but what is special about the compartment of the Holy of Holies is that it represents God's abode, which IS Christ, and IS SPIRIT. God was IN CHRIST reconciling all men unto Himself.

What is also special about it, is that the compartment is the day seven, as it was roughly 4000 years or 4 days from Adam to Jesus, then 2 days or 2000 years from Jesus to now, which means we are in the dawning of the 7th day. Seven means perfect or complete, sacred.

God only portrayed 7 days in the tabernacle pattern, because the 7th one is a person, who is a Spirit, who is our rest. This is why it was said, of those Israelites in Hebrews 4, who were the literal component walked out, that there remaineth a rest to the people of God, because Joshua could not give them rest.

As Jesus displayed, this was something that was possible in the here and now and not something we had to wait to die for, ie. to have communion with the Father. We tend to forget that He came to show us the way to the FATHER. As great as Pentecost has been, I want to know the Father.

Some will say, but Jesus said, if you've seen Me, you've seen the Father, and that's true. But perceiving what He did and does, is not knowing the Father. It's like seeing the wind move the leaves in the trees, but not being one with that wind. I want to press on, to be one with the wind; that is my heart's cry. Christ is the light that is "given off" by the fire that is God the Father. I don't want to just see the light, I want to be one with the fire the light came from.

And the thing is; it's His heart's cry, too. He wants "grandchildren" in His "old age". His Son is wonderful beyond words, but He wants His Seed to be seen, He wants someone to declare (means to show openly) His generation. So far, no one has, except in part, the realm of Pentecost.

This, and many other reasons are why I don't believe He will come in the flesh of a man called Jesus anymore. Christ that ascended is the abode of the Father, and it is the FATHER that now wants to tabernacle among MEN, not just one man, Jesus. The earnest of our portion that we received WAS CHRIST, but GOD THE FATHER, is the priest's portion.

We were made a priestly "nation" by the addition of Christ, and God the Father dwelt in the midst in the tabernacle pattern. He desires to do so, in FULL MANIFESTATION, again, this time in a many membered body, whose Head is in heaven/Spirit, thereby making Him both above and below, ie. all in all. 

The flesh of Him came as the final sacrifice to make a visible end to the OT sacrifices that only dealt with covering the sin in the flesh, but not removing it. His flesh accomplished what it was sent to do, and no more offering is needed, neither do we need a human king to rule over us, for He already reigns as ruler of our hearts, in the Spirit. My  Blessings.....

[Molly]

Amen, Cardinal!


20And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.

--Numbers 18

[Gilbert]

This is going to be a kind of general disagreement with several posts, so not singling anyone out.

The first thing I want to say again is that I do not believe Jesus the man is going to make another appearance in His flesh. Again, the pattern of the Tabernacle of Moses, shows us that the "millennium" that nearly everyone in Christendom takes as literal, is shown in the pattern of the Holy of Holies measurements which are 10 X 10 X 10 = 1000.

Each of the compartments represents a period of time that has literally happened, such as the inner court represents the 2 days or 2000 years of Pentecost we are in, but what is special about the compartment of the Holy of Holies is that it represents God's abode, which IS Christ, and IS SPIRIT. God was IN CHRIST reconciling all men unto Himself.

What is also special about it, is that the compartment is the day seven, as it was roughly 4000 years or 4 days from Adam to Jesus, then 2 days or 2000 years from Jesus to now, which means we are in the dawning of the 7th day. Seven means perfect or complete, sacred.

God only portrayed 7 days in the tabernacle pattern, because the 7th one is a person, who is a Spirit, who is our rest. This is why it was said, of those Israelites in Hebrews 4, who were the literal component walked out, that there remaineth a rest to the people of God, because Joshua could not give them rest.

As Jesus displayed, this was something that was possible in the here and now and not something we had to wait to die for, ie. to have communion with the Father. We tend to forget that He came to show us the way to the FATHER. As great as Pentecost has been, I want to know the Father.

Some will say, but Jesus said, if you've seen Me, you've seen the Father, and that's true. But perceiving what He did and does, is not knowing the Father. It's like seeing the wind move the leaves in the trees, but not being one with that wind. I want to press on, to be one with the wind; that is my heart's cry. Christ is the light that is "given off" by the fire that is God the Father. I don't want to just see the light, I want to be one with the fire the light came from.

And the thing is; it's His heart's cry, too. He wants "grandchildren" in His "old age". His Son is wonderful beyond words, but He wants His Seed to be seen, He wants someone to declare (means to show openly) His generation. So far, no one has, except in part, the realm of Pentecost.

This, and many other reasons are why I don't believe He will come in the flesh of a man called Jesus anymore. Christ that ascended is the abode of the Father, and it is the FATHER that now wants to tabernacle among MEN, not just one man, Jesus. The earnest of our portion that we received WAS CHRIST, but GOD THE FATHER, is the priest's portion.

We were made a priestly "nation" by the addition of Christ, and God the Father dwelt in the midst in the tabernacle pattern. He desires to do so, in FULL MANIFESTATION, again, this time in a many membered body, whose Head is in heaven/Spirit, thereby making Him both above and below, ie. all in all. 

The flesh of Him came as the final sacrifice to make a visible end to the OT sacrifices that only dealt with covering the sin in the flesh, but not removing it. His flesh accomplished what it was sent to do, and no more offering is needed, neither do we need a human king to rule over us, for He already reigns as ruler of our hearts, in the Spirit. My  Blessings.....

Apart from your math formulas and typology statements, I definitely agree with the premise of your Post.
It is the spirit of the anti-christ which denies that Jesus is coming/appearing/being revealed in OUR flesh.

[Nathan]

Along "with" your math, Jesus also stated that in three days he would raise up his temple.  I believe not only was he referring to his natural body, but he was also referring to a spiritual body of Christ that would manifest on that third day.  Oh, which by the way, is just dawning in our generation.  It was two thousand years ago . . .two days . . .that he said that and "this" new millinium is the beginning of the third day.  The last of the three days is the Sabbath of the seven. 

In the last days . . .to me, is the last three days of the seven.  God set the template of life in the seven days of creation in Genesis, man has been living in that template ever since.  It's not by coincidence that the sun, moon and stars . .everything affiliated with light, were created on the 4th day, which is in direct connection with Christ appearing in the flesh on the 4000th year of man from Adam.

Today is Columbus day . . .it's only been a mere 500+ years since this nation was birthed . . .we're only a half day old.  We're the youngest among nations . . yet in the spirit, does it not state that the least shall be the greatest?  This is not about carnal power, it's about spiritual relationship.

I'm with you Card . . .I beleive Jesus came in the flesh for one purpose and one only, to redeem carnal man in this realm back to the Father.  To have him once again return in a form "a little lower than angels" to dwell among us just doesn't fit the pattern of the purpose.  I do believe Jesus is returning, just not in the form our ancestors have proclaimed.  I believe he already has returned . . .the upper room for one . . .it's just not in the "form" we expect.  I beleive he is coming and will continue to come.  I believe that in order for understanding to take place, knowledge must submit to what can't be seen, nor fully understood.  Scripture calls it faith.

[Tim B]

This is going to be a kind of general disagreement with several posts, so not singling anyone out.

The first thing I want to say again is that I do not believe Jesus the man is going to make another appearance in His flesh. Again, the pattern of the Tabernacle of Moses, shows us that the "millennium" that nearly everyone in Christendom takes as literal, is shown in the pattern of the Holy of Holies measurements which are 10 X 10 X 10 = 1000.

Each of the compartments represents a period of time that has literally happened, such as the inner court represents the 2 days or 2000 years of Pentecost we are in, but what is special about the compartment of the Holy of Holies is that it represents God's abode, which IS Christ, and IS SPIRIT. God was IN CHRIST reconciling all men unto Himself.

What is also special about it, is that the compartment is the day seven, as it was roughly 4000 years or 4 days from Adam to Jesus, then 2 days or 2000 years from Jesus to now, which means we are in the dawning of the 7th day. Seven means perfect or complete, sacred.

God only portrayed 7 days in the tabernacle pattern, because the 7th one is a person, who is a Spirit, who is our rest. This is why it was said, of those Israelites in Hebrews 4, who were the literal component walked out, that there remaineth a rest to the people of God, because Joshua could not give them rest.

As Jesus displayed, this was something that was possible in the here and now and not something we had to wait to die for, ie. to have communion with the Father. We tend to forget that He came to show us the way to the FATHER. As great as Pentecost has been, I want to know the Father.

Some will say, but Jesus said, if you've seen Me, you've seen the Father, and that's true. But perceiving what He did and does, is not knowing the Father. It's like seeing the wind move the leaves in the trees, but not being one with that wind. I want to press on, to be one with the wind; that is my heart's cry. Christ is the light that is "given off" by the fire that is God the Father. I don't want to just see the light, I want to be one with the fire the light came from.

And the thing is; it's His heart's cry, too. He wants "grandchildren" in His "old age". His Son is wonderful beyond words, but He wants His Seed to be seen, He wants someone to declare (means to show openly) His generation. So far, no one has, except in part, the realm of Pentecost.

This, and many other reasons are why I don't believe He will come in the flesh of a man called Jesus anymore. Christ that ascended is the abode of the Father, and it is the FATHER that now wants to tabernacle among MEN, not just one man, Jesus. The earnest of our portion that we received WAS CHRIST, but GOD THE FATHER, is the priest's portion.

We were made a priestly "nation" by the addition of Christ, and God the Father dwelt in the midst in the tabernacle pattern. He desires to do so, in FULL MANIFESTATION, again, this time in a many membered body, whose Head is in heaven/Spirit, thereby making Him both above and below, ie. all in all. 

The flesh of Him came as the final sacrifice to make a visible end to the OT sacrifices that only dealt with covering the sin in the flesh, but not removing it. His flesh accomplished what it was sent to do, and no more offering is needed, neither do we need a human king to rule over us, for He already reigns as ruler of our hearts, in the Spirit. My  Blessings.....

I like these thoughts Cardinal! So do you think that Christ/God is manifesting Himself in the hearts of men/man around the globe? I've been thinking about that, and whilst the world isn't perfect, I've been wondering if God is moving in mankind into a time when all men will be at peace; in other words, he'll be all in all.

Just throwing those questions/thoughts out there.

Also, I seem to be of the opinion that Christ came "back" in 70 AD in Spirit and is now subjecting all enemies and powers to himself that he might destroy death, subject himself to his Father, and then God will be all in all. I think God is in the "becoming all in all" process.

[Taffy]

2peter3 says it much for mine Card ..

The HEAVENS and earth will be dissolved ( Old C),THE DAY is Likened to a Thousand YR, the Very same DAY who Consists of BOTH NIGHT(  OLDC) and DaY(NEWC) the Night bearing withness to HE WHO IS THE DAY...( 12 hrs in a DAY)

He Comes a Thief in the NIGHT[[ as per the Mollys post concerning the Bride\Groom ..( Jewish Custom) to take what is Rightfully HIS, to open the hearts of Men piercing the fleshy veil .,,wherein, a NEW heavens and EARTH are restored.

Christ is the DAY = 1000yrs..tis figurative...

[Cardinal]

It is the spirit of the anti-christ which denies that Jesus is coming/appearing/being revealed in OUR flesh.

  Amen, that's EXACTLY what it is. Additionally, in this same vein of thought, Heb 9:8 witnesses this truth.........
 
    Heb. 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the FIRST TABERNACLE WAS YET STANDING:

The first tabernacle here was not only the Tabernacle of Moses, but the tabernacle of HIS FLESH, which veil was rent to reveal the way into the holiest of all.

Let me be even bolder; you can't even see the way into the Holiest of all until you've laid down the flesh of Him, because hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh (or by or thru the flesh, INCLUDING His own), but after the Spirit. Blessings....

[Cardinal]

I like these thoughts Cardinal! So do you think that Christ/God is manifesting Himself in the hearts of men/man around the globe? I've been thinking about that, and whilst the world isn't perfect, I've been wondering if God is moving in mankind into a time when all men will be at peace; in other words, he'll be all in all.

  Amen, yes He is Tim. This was the plan from the beginning. Blessings.....

And AMEN Nathan, Taffy and Molly, as well. It is far more glorious than what we can even imagine. 

[Tim B]

I like these thoughts Cardinal! So do you think that Christ/God is manifesting Himself in the hearts of men/man around the globe? I've been thinking about that, and whilst the world isn't perfect, I've been wondering if God is moving in mankind into a time when all men will be at peace; in other words, he'll be all in all.

  Amen, yes He is Tim. This was the plan from the beginning. Blessings.....

And AMEN Nathan, Taffy and Molly, as well. It is far more glorious than what we can even imagine. 

Men are still physically dying though. Does the spiritual man relate to the physical man? For instance, when I die, do you think I'll have some sort of interaction with the Earthly realm? Would I be part of the Sons of God that bring their glory to free "the creature"/the Earth from bondage?

[jabcat]

Hi Card.  Do you consider His glorified body, the same as "flesh"?  I personally don't.  It seemed to be in some ways akin to a "visible spirit", still able to be seen and touched. 

Obviously, those that are saved no longer know Him after the flesh, because He "went away" as He said, and His Spirit has been sent and placed in us.  But I still think of Acts 1:11.  Without looking it up, doesn't it say that He would reappear JUST AS they SAW Him leaving (glorified body?) ?   

Much to consider...

[Cardinal]

Men are still physically dying though. Does the spiritual man relate to the physical man? For instance, when I die, do you think I'll have some sort of interaction with the Earthly realm? Would I be part of the Sons of God that bring their glory to free "the creature"/the Earth from bondage?

  Yes, they are still dying, but when you see what His INTENTION was, you see that He never intended for us to die in the first place. This is why Paul talked about the glory within, coming without, ie. clothing this mortal with immortality. He didn't say the glory was coming via literal death.This is the purpose in the first place, of Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory. People generally have not been taught WHAT that hope IS.

Ro 6:4 - Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the GLORY of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

If there is nothing but dying and THEN being "glorified", what need to explain the "afterlife" to us in such detail, as surely we would find out then? He was not telling us how great it's going to be when we lay down this body literally, but rather telling us HOW NOT TO LAY IT DOWN AT ALL.

And so we are told such things as, "reckon yourselves dead". So, ok, if NOW I'm dead, SOMEBODY TELL ME HOW TO RESURRECT! And so Christ was sent to do just that. He was our "show and tell" on how to go to the Father and obtain life everlasting (immortality). He has life (Christ) to give AND life everlasting (Father).

Make no mistake about it, Jesus had ALREADY been to the Father, before He EVER went to the cross. And He could have told us how to do it and done nothing but miracles, but who would have believed He had mastery over death until it was too late because He had outlived THEM? He came to DEMONSTRATE that the Word of God is true, not just speak it. And the revelation of Christ that is progressively unfolding NOW, is designed for this very purpose, ie. death being swallowed up of life. Blessings....

[Cardinal]

Hi Card.  Do you consider His glorified body, the same as "flesh"?  I personally don't.  It seemed to be in some ways akin to a "visible spirit", still able to be seen and touched. 

Obviously, those that are saved no longer know Him after the flesh, because He "went away" as He said, and His Spirit has been sent and placed in us.  But I still think of Acts 1:11.  Without looking it up, doesn't it say that He would reappear JUST AS they SAW Him leaving (glorified body?) ?   

Much to consider...

  Yes, but it's "celestial" flesh. And, yes, and I touched on this in an earlier post. How did He come the first time? In the flesh of man. How did He come the second time? In the flesh of man (plural). Hebrew word for dust means the same as cloud. You might say He comes in 'elevated' dust, LOL.

We are the dust He comes in, and if we receive our glorified bodies WHILE YET ALIVE, then He came just as He went, in a glorified BODY. The complete OT was a type and shadow for us, which means that Enoch and Elijah have their witness to us, as well.

The thing to remember here is He is forever ascending and descending all thru the book. It's not a two-time only thing, and the word "second" if I remember right, is not even in the text, pursuant to the so-called "second coming". He has come, He is come, and He will come, is His NATURE, like a river that can't be dammed up. Blessings....

[Taffy]

Hi Card.  Do you consider His glorified body, the same as "flesh"?  I personally don't.  It seemed to be in some ways akin to a "visible spirit", still able to be seen and touched. 

Obviously, those that are saved no longer know Him after the flesh, because He "went away" as He said, and His Spirit has been sent and placed in us.  But I still think of Acts 1:11.  Without looking it up, doesn't it say that He would reappear JUST AS they SAW Him leaving (glorified body?) ?   

Much to consider...

  Yes, but it's "celestial" flesh. And, yes, and I touched on this in an earlier post. How did He come the first time? In the flesh of man. How did He come the second time? In the flesh of man (plural). Hebrew word for dust means the same as cloud. You might say He comes in 'elevated' dust, LOL.

We are the dust He comes in, and if we receive our glorified bodies WHILE YET ALIVE, then He came just as He went, in a glorified BODY. The complete OT was a type and shadow for us, which means that Enoch and Elijah have their witness to us, as well.

The thing to remember here is He is forever ascending and descending all thru the book. It's not a two-time only thing, and the word "second" if I remember right, is not even in the text, pursuant to the so-called "second coming". He has come, He is come, and He will come, is His NATURE, like a river that can't be dammed up. Blessings....

[jabcat]

I don't disagree that all that's involved.  I'm just not sure that's "in the same manner" as they saw Him go away, which is what they were promised.  I'll have to look at it more, thanks.   

[Gilbert]

Make no mistake about it, Jesus had ALREADY been to the Father, before He EVER went to the cross. And He could have told us how to do it and done nothing but miracles, but who would have believed He had mastery over death until it was too late because He had outlived THEM? He came to DEMONSTRATE that the Word of God is true, not just speak it. And the revelation of Christ that is progressively unfolding NOW, is designed for this very purpose, ie. death being swallowed up of life. Blessings....

Hi! Cardinal
I don't quite grasp what you are saying here: "Jesus had already been to the Father, before he ever went to the cross".
Would I be correct to assume that you might be referencing the concept of a pre-existent Jesus?

[Gilbert]

Hi Card.  Do you consider His glorified body, the same as "flesh"?  I personally don't.  It seemed to be in some ways akin to a "visible spirit", still able to be seen and touched. 

Obviously, those that are saved no longer know Him after the flesh, because He "went away" as He said, and His Spirit has been sent and placed in us.  But I still think of Acts 1:11.  Without looking it up, doesn't it say that He would reappear JUST AS they SAW Him leaving (glorified body?) ?   

Much to consider...

  Yes, but it's "celestial" flesh. And, yes, and I touched on this in an earlier post. How did He come the first time? In the flesh of man. How did He come the second time? In the flesh of man (plural). Hebrew word for dust means the same as cloud. You might say He comes in 'elevated' dust, LOL.

We are the dust He comes in, and if we receive our glorified bodies WHILE YET ALIVE, then He came just as He went, in a glorified BODY. The complete OT was a type and shadow for us, which means that Enoch and Elijah have their witness to us, as well.

The thing to remember here is He is forever ascending and descending all thru the book. It's not a two-time only thing, and the word "second" if I remember right, is not even in the text, pursuant to the so-called "second coming". He has come, He is come, and He will come, is His NATURE, like a river that can't be dammed up. Blessings....

Hi!
Maybe you should inquiring about the following points:
We know that Jesus was not preoccupied much with his physical flesh, correct?
However, we also know that angels were guarding the physical body of Jesus laying in the tomb during the three days He was liberating Sheol, right?
Why would the angels be guarding/protecting the body of Jesus from the powers of death and decay if it was not needful to have Him re-claim it later?

Paul says: "Jesus Christ died and rose again with a glorified body". With tremendous power His spiritual body absorbed or 'put on' the physical body which was dead. The spiritual body swallowed up the natural body. Now He has a glorified body. The body which lay in the grave of Joseph of Arimathea, has been absorbed by the spiritual body of Jesus, and by that power has been rejuvenized to life and has been taken up in the spiritual body.

[Chris]

Hi!
Maybe you should inquiring about the following points:
We know that Jesus was not preoccupied much with his physical flesh, correct?
However, we also know that angels were guarding the physical body of Jesus laying in the tomb during the three days He was liberating Sheol, right?
Why would the angels be guarding/protecting the body of Jesus from the powers of death and decay if it was not needful to have Him re-claim it later?

Paul says: "Jesus Christ died and rose again with a glorified body". With tremendous power His spiritual body absorbed or 'put on' the physical body which was dead. The spiritual body swallowed up the natural body. Now He has a glorified body. The body which lay in the grave of Joseph of Arimathea, has been absorbed by the spiritual body of Jesus, and by that power has been rejuvenized to life and has been taken up in the spiritual body.

Gilbert,

Would you mind referencing the verses to which you are referring with regard to what I highlighted in red text?

Thanks!!

Chris

[Chris]

2peter3 says it much for mine Card ..

The HEAVENS and earth will be dissolved ( Old C),THE DAY is Likened to a Thousand YR, the Very same DAY who Consists of BOTH NIGHT(  OLDC) and DaY(NEWC) the Night bearing withness to HE WHO IS THE DAY...( 12 hrs in a DAY)

He Comes a Thief in the NIGHT[[ as per the Mollys post concerning the Bride\Groom ..( Jewish Custom) to take what is Rightfully HIS, to open the hearts of Men piercing the fleshy veil .,,wherein, a NEW heavens and EARTH are restored.

Christ is the DAY = 1000yrs..tis figurative...

 

[jabcat]

Thanks for your post to me earlier, Chris.  Sometimes it is hard to reconcile/understand our perceived inconsistencies.  I do think they're perceived - a glass darkly.

I'm not Gilbert  , and he can answer for himself as to what he was referencing.  I did find these two passages that may be related.

"As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: 'I WILL GIVE YOU THE HOLY and SURE blessings OF DAVID.'

"Therefore He also says in another Psalm, 'You will not allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.' Acts 13:34,35

and,

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
      If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.  I Cor. 15:42-47

God's blessing, James.