Author Topic: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?  (Read 46002 times)

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martincisneros

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #350 on: October 09, 2009, 07:31:39 AM »
This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul....

 :cloud9: For the life of me, I just don't understand why the immortality of the soul is considered "pagan".

Does anybody agree that the soul is feminine, just as Eve was feminine, who is a type of the soul? And that He called THEIR name Adam, and Adam is a type of our spirit? And that He said that if THEY ate of the wrong tree, THEY would die, and THEY were cast out of the garden? And once she was cast out, did she die and Adam live alone?

So if both died, is only one raised? If Christ, our husband died and was raised, is His bride/wife/church, not raised? Of course not, or we have no hope. But that is essentially what this pattern of the soul not being immortal, that is being suggested, IS.

Both "die", both are raised up into Him in due season. The wife/soul may take a little longer if she did not completely obey the commandment in Genesis that her desire would be to her husband and he would rule over her, but God said that is NOT GOOD for "man" to be alone. Blessings....
Everyone needs to read Cardinal's post here about two dozen times, MINIMALLY.  Not as a doctrine, creed, or whatever, but as things to be aware of as you're reading your Bible.  If you can ever be consistently aware of what she brought up here as you're reading your Bible the rest of the year, and read it daily!! -- then I genuinely believe your understanding will be transformed and enriched infinitely by it.  This is brought up sporadically in some of the extrabiblical early Church writings and they list the Scriptures that they base it on. Not room enough to do a full study of it here on this thread.  Perhaps an old thread or two that get into this at some length can be resurrected to the front of the board that it's on.  Some may balk at this as gnosticism, but it's really not.  This was taught in the 1st century by Clement of Rome and others, including Barnabas.  I'm not denying that this may come up in some of the gnostic literature, but so does the Name of Lord Jesus.  Something being brought up by them doesn't mean it originated there.  Some of you are very aware of this from the patterns laid out in the tabernacle, Proverbs, and Song of Solomon, but most people aren't willing to look that deeply into the Word and it suffices for them to stay very superficial with doctrines along established patterns of their mentors and to blow the rest of it off until the coming of the Lord.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #351 on: October 09, 2009, 07:57:31 AM »
ok, let me reword.
For anyone who would like to answer:

What is the difference between the soul and the spirit?


Sometimes, I think we're all talking about things but perhaps we're not all talking about the SAME things, or have the same definitions for things.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #352 on: October 09, 2009, 08:06:05 AM »
It appears throughout the Scriptures that the soul and spirit of man are interchangeable, yet separate.

Son of man/Son of God?

The mind, will, emotions (soul?) and the essence, core, or heart (spirit?) of man are fastened together; but separable.
Therefore, put no confidence in the flesh, for the spirit is living and active:

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him, must worship in spirit and truth."

The principles of human life; feeling, thought, and action including the physical or material elements (the body) will
die
, but not the Spirit/SPIRIT which are ONE.


So where does that leave us?
If we have no feeling, thought or action...?
What is the point?

Wait, let me back up. Are you saying die... as in forever?
Or temporarily during some "soul sleep"?


Sparrow, the essence of who you are will not die, just the foolishness of this world.
There will be no more death; mourning, crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away!


Ok, I think we're on the same page then.
(I thought you were saying that ALL feeling, thought and action will be no more...
as in we will no longer have thoughts, no longer have feelings, and will do NOTHING.)
I know people who believe that.

Basically, what I see is that love endures.
That which is not love within us, is what dies.


"The true, real, and invariable nature of a thing; changes not."

 :boyheart:

Offline jabcat

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #353 on: October 09, 2009, 08:09:37 AM »
Good questions sparrow.  I'm still trying to understand this (and many) topic(s) myself.  I just have to hang onto the basics here.  Jesus died for our sins, rose again, gives us salvation, and has promised us resurrection and to live with Him.  Sometimes we just got to boil it back down, ya know?

martincisneros

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #354 on: October 09, 2009, 08:43:29 AM »
ok, let me reword.
For anyone who would like to answer:

What is the difference between the soul and the spirit?
Your soul is what makes you human or perverse.  It's your mind, will, emotions, and desires.

Your spirit is what makes you divine or demonic.  It's your:

archive and your autopilot,

your generator of the words you choose on a moment by moment basis that'll have the supremacy over your life,

according to Jesus and John it's the part that'll house the eonian life which is the knowledge of God and of His Son Jesus Christ,

it's where you grow the Galatians 5 "fruit" with the Written Word of God that correspond to the 1Corinthians 12 manifestations of the Holy Spirit -- your spirit can do everything His can do, but you just don't know enough about how to use that LIFE and the words you're cultivating in your heart to operate as proficiently, and obviously gradual spiritual growth is as much a law as gradual physical growth as all of the principles involved in it are abided by.

So, your spirit is your archive, autopilot, ground to sow in, and store house.

Your spirit additionally hears and processes God in the way that your soul hears and processes anyone and anything operating in this natural realm.

So, your soul is your mind, will, emotions, and desires that are to be brought captive, line upon line, precept upon precept by the Written Word and the hope that grows out of that in your spirit until your soul is "anchored" and "renewed" and "saved/delivered/peaceful/one"

So, in summation, your spirit is your archive, autopilot, ground to grow words in, store house, and image of God.

Your spirit anchors your soul in God's purposes through hope/expectation from the Gospel that's basically, when you study it all out, your imagination filled with the fruit of the spirit of Galatians 5 that you've grown in there via treasuring the promises of God's Word in your heart.  Walking in the spirit according to Colossians 2:6-7 is to walk in thanksgiving until Colossians 3:16-17 is a reality in your life that everything you say and everything you do is in [or as] the person of Christ Jesus.  It's hard to stay unloving if you protect, maintain, and develop your thanksgiving until it heals and possesses all of you with the redemptive promises of the New Testament.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #355 on: October 09, 2009, 09:29:11 AM »
The TWO shall be ONE IN SPIRIT!

(The last day or end of time comes to us all, although no one knows the day and hour of their death.)

 

Gilbert

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #356 on: October 09, 2009, 11:36:51 AM »
ok, let me reword.
For anyone who would like to answer:

What is the difference between the soul and the spirit?
Your soul is what makes you human or perverse.  It's your mind, will, emotions, and desires.

Your spirit is what makes you divine or demonic.  It's your:

archive and your autopilot,

your generator of the words you choose on a moment by moment basis that'll have the supremacy over your life,

according to Jesus and John it's the part that'll house the eonian life which is the knowledge of God and of His Son Jesus Christ,

it's where you grow the Galatians 5 "fruit" with the Written Word of God that correspond to the 1Corinthians 12 manifestations of the Holy Spirit -- your spirit can do everything His can do, but you just don't know enough about how to use that LIFE and the words you're cultivating in your heart to operate as proficiently, and obviously gradual spiritual growth is as much a law as gradual physical growth as all of the principles involved in it are abided by.

So, your spirit is your archive, autopilot, ground to sow in, and store house.

Your spirit additionally hears and processes God in the way that your soul hears and processes anyone and anything operating in this natural realm.

So, your soul is your mind, will, emotions, and desires that are to be brought captive, line upon line, precept upon precept by the Written Word and the hope that grows out of that in your spirit until your soul is "anchored" and "renewed" and "saved/delivered/peaceful/one"

So, in summation, your spirit is your archive, autopilot, ground to grow words in, store house, and image of God.

Your spirit anchors your soul in God's purposes through hope/expectation from the Gospel that's basically, when you study it all out, your imagination filled with the fruit of the spirit of Galatians 5 that you've grown in there via treasuring the promises of God's Word in your heart.  Walking in the spirit according to Colossians 2:6-7 is to walk in thanksgiving until Colossians 3:16-17 is a reality in your life that everything you say and everything you do is in [or as] the person of Christ Jesus.  It's hard to stay unloving if you protect, maintain, and develop your thanksgiving until it heals and possesses all of you with the redemptive promises of the New Testament.

Hi!

To fully comprehend the concepts of spirit/soul one must first have a proper understanding of what it means to be 'born anew' aka: "begotten of the Spirit" --- what it means when it says that we are "new creatures" (better translated: new species). These common terms so easily spill from our lips and we can oftentimes have preconceived ideas about them which might seem sufficient for a time ... so, we would do well to re-examine them and obtain a more certain and mature understanding.

Natural man is physically composed of 'dust (matter) of the earth'. But man became a 'living being', because the Creator 'breathed into his nostrils the breath of life' (Gen 2:7). This breath of life is more than biological life. It concerns both soul and spirit, which together make up the inner man. The inner man is the spiritual body of a man. Just as the earthly body is composed of elements of the earth, so too the spiritual body is composed of elements of heaven (1Cor 15:44 ).

Simply put:
The spirit and soul are the substance of our resurrected life; they form the "inner man" ... they are the substance of what Paul named as the "spiritual body". It is the spiritual body (soul/spirit) which forms the "spiritual house"; this is also called a "building (dwelling) from God". This spiritual body relates to the earthly body as a house does to a tent (read II Corinthians 4:16 - 5:10). In this scripture (but also in others) we find the following distinction between: the earthly body and the heavenly body, the outward man and the inner man, visible and invisible, temporary and eternal, earthly tent and a heavenly building of God, mortal and immortal, abroad and at home. Example: For each one receives, what is due to him/her for the things done while in his/her (earthly) body, whether good or bad (2Cor 5:10).

From the beginning God created man to live, grow and develop in His entire creation, which is heaven and earth. Every man lives in two worlds at the same time from the earliest beginning. The spiritual body, with which a man can function in the spiritual world, does not come into being when he is born again; it is built up together with the natural body from the embryonic stage, together with the natural body. In all stages of development there is an influence from the spiritual world, that is especially directed against the spiritual body. Every sin begins in the spiritual world; the resulting situation, death, is first and foremost felt spiritually.

Just as we are visible in the physical world through a physical body, we also are visible in the invisible world through the invisible/spiritual body. Just as the physical body has the ability to see and hear and speak in this visible world, the spiritual body also has these same attributes/abilities in the invisible world. That is why we recognize ourselves as 'new creatures' ... because we live and have our being in a new atmosphere ... in the Kingdom of God / the Kingdom of Light. The spiritual body of man is the 'dwelling' which God from the beginning has wanted to live in.

It is oftentimes said that Man is a body which has a spirit and a soul. The reality is quite different: man is foremost a spiritual being which also has a (natural) body.
The natural body of the first Adam and his descendants is composed of 'dust (matter) of the earth'. The Creator 'breathed the breath of life' into it. Blowing the breath of life indicates the formation of the inner man; built from the elements of heaven to enable the functioning   of man in the spiritual world. This human spirit jealously longs for the Creator (James 4,5). It also is the essence of the inner man, who by 'rebirth' through the living and lasting Word of God is set free from the claim of Death (1Pet 1:23). The inner man is being made complete 'in concealment' with its relating spiritual body. At the end of the earthly life this inner man leaves the natural body (we call that: dying). The natural body then, is being decomposed and returns to the elements of the earth, from which it came (compare Eccl 3:19-21).

The terms 'life' and 'death' encompass the essence of the Bible message. Both are foremost relevant for the inner man. For instance, the dying of the natural body is oftentimes incorrectly called: 'passing on into eternal life'. Also, at a grave this mistaken expression is commonly heard: "We entrust this body to the earth and expect it to rise at the resurrection day". When the first man had sinned one thing said to him was: "You are dust and to dust you will return", (Gen 3:19).

The terms 'life' and 'death' refer to this spiritual body of man. Life is development in relationship with God by faith in Jesus Christ; death is futility in reference to the purpose of God. When Adam ate of the forbidden fruit, he died before God according to his inner man, even though his natural body lived on for hundreds of years. According to the inner man 'the eyes were opened' and Adam and Eve saw that they were 'naked', not just physically, but especially inwardly, (Gen 3:7). Their inner man was 'naked' before the powers of sin which could now impregnate them with iniquity (aka: 'seed of the serpent'). This is how sin entered the world. The term 'sin' refers to the impossibility for man to reach the original purpose of God. By the (act of) sin of man, he himself and the whole visible creation had come under the claim and dominion of Death, (Rom 5:12-14).

The terms 'life' and 'death' not only refer to the natural life, but first to the inner man. What illness is for the natural body, sin is for the inner man. It is a spiritual law: the soul who sins is the one who will die, (Ezekiel 18:4). Because of committed sin, from which no man escapes, the soul ends under the power of Death. Death has reigned as 'king' over all natural descendants of Adam (Romans 5:12-21).

Anyways, I began this all by saying that we have to seek after a better understanding of terms. For instance: our rebirth is the resurrection from the dead or, as the Greek phrasing states it, a resurrection from among the dead, (Eph 5:14 and Rom 6:4). In other words, our rebirth is the first resurrection!
The process of rebirth will be completed when man puts on his resurrection body of which Paul speaks in 1Cor 15). The natural body, which is still living or has already died, is to the 'resurrection body' as a seed is to a seed producing plant. Thus the first man, who has become a living soul becomes a life-giving spirit (1Cor 15:45). The seed dies, but from out of that kernel of life a new plant grows.
So it is that the 'resurrection body' which develops after rebirth, is a spiritual body sown in infirmity and weakness because of many oppressions, but it is resurrected in strength and glory, (1Cor 15:42, 43).

Every human being is born with a spirit and soul; which forms a spiritual body.
Thus, we can now better understand how occultism is the great counterpart of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Occultism was brought into the world by the 'man of sin or lawlessness' which is the counterpart of the True Man, Jesus Christ. The 'offspring' of this 'son of perdition' are called the 'sons of perdition', (2Thess 2). This 'body' is a misleading form of the true 'body of Christ' and is called in Revelation the great 'whore' (Rev 17).
The 'gospel of life' on the other hand, is brought to the world by the True Man. This is the true Christ and His 'offspring'. They carry the name of 'sons of God'. Together they form the Head and members of the 'Body of Christ'. So, the mystery of this body of Christ is its oneness though it consists of various members who have each a resurrection body being formed in the process (washing) of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5b-7).

Finally some key points from 1Cor 15 regarding the resurrection body:
* verses 21 and 22: as death  is the result of one man (Adam), so is the  resurrection (Jesus);
 * verses 35-38: the resurrection body is not the dead body;
* verses 40-42 :the  splendour of the heavenly body differs from the earthly one;
* verse 42 and 43: the heavenly body is imperishable, splendorous, powerful and spiritual. The spiritual body is as real as the natural one
* verse 45-49: living soul versus life-giving spirit - natural versus spiritual - earthly versus heavenly the image of the earth versus the image of heaven
 * verse 51: the mystery of transformation in a flash
* verse 52: the revival of the heavenly body and transformation of the earthly body
 * verse 53: the process of the perishable to the imperishable and the process of mortality to immortality
* verse 54: the process of resurrection will swallow up death.

Something interesting to ponder:
We should refrain from thinking of eternity as an extension of time.
For us, eternity occurred at our re-birth.
In every sense, we are living NOW in/for eternity.
After all, this way of thinking is more in keeping with not knowing anyone (including ourselves) according to the 'flesh'; according to concepts derived from this visible world.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 12:29:27 PM by Gilbert »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #357 on: October 09, 2009, 02:20:10 PM »
Martin, show me all the signs and miracles which are happenning in the last 2000 years which reveal Christ

<——— Just one of Christ's miracles!

Notice how Beloved Servant just could not quote the whole quote? I wrote: " Martin, show me all the signs and miracles which are happenning in the last 2000 years which reveal Christ and the 12 have been reigning on the earth."

Martin nor anyone can show this. The Preterist says the kingdom came in 70 A.D. Show me where Christ and the 12 have been reigning on the earth physically for almost 2000 years. Please, no Gnostic, hyper spiritual replies. Jesus said  the 12 were to sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel during the 1000 year reign. Proof anybody?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #358 on: October 09, 2009, 02:23:26 PM »
This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul....

 :cloud9: For the life of me, I just don't understand why the immortality of the soul is considered "pagan".


You might go here and find the pagan source for the so-called "immortality of the soul": http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d060101.htm
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Doug

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #359 on: October 09, 2009, 03:51:46 PM »

 :cloud9: For the life of me, I just don't understand why the immortality of the soul is considered "pagan".


Ancient Theories of Soul
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ancient-soul/
Ancient philosophical theories of soul are in many respects sensitive to ways of speaking and thinking about the soul [psuchę] that are not specifically philosophical or theoretical. We therefore begin with what the word 'soul' meant to speakers of Classical Greek, and what it would have been natural to think about and associate with the soul. We then turn to various Presocratic thinkers, and to the philosophical theories that are our primary concern, those of Plato (first in the Phaedo, then in the Republic), Aristotle (in the De Anima or On the Soul), Epicurus, and the Stoics. These are by far the most carefully worked out theories of soul in ancient philosophy. Later theoretical developments -- for instance, in the writings of Plotinus and other Platonists, as well as the Church Fathers -- are best studied against the background of the classical theories, from which, in large part, they derive.
...   
Christian writers such as Clement of Alexandria and Gregory of Nyssa were heavily indebted to philosophical theories of soul, especially Platonic ones, but also introduced new concerns and interests of their own. Nevertheless, these and other post-classical developments in every case need to be interpreted within the framework and context furnished by the classical theories...


http://www.britannica.com
The immortality of the soul
Human beings seem always to have had some notion of a shadowy double that survives the death of the body. But the idea of the soul as a mental entity, with intellectual and moral qualities, interacting with a physical organism but capable of continuing after its dissolution, derives in Western thought from Plato and entered into Judaism during approximately the last century before the Common Era and thence into Christianity. In Jewish and Christian thinking it has existed in tension with the idea of the resurrection of the person conceived as an indissoluble psychophysical unity. Christian thought gradually settled into a pattern that required both of these apparently divergent ideas. At death the soul is separated from the body and exists in a conscious or unconscious disembodied state. But on the future Day of Judgment souls will be re-embodied (whether in their former but now transfigured earthly bodies or in new resurrection bodies) and will live eternally in the heavenly kingdom.
Within this framework, philosophical discussion has centred mainly on the idea of the immaterial soul and its capacity to survive the death of the body. Plato, in the Phaedo, argued that the soul is inherently indestructible. To destroy something, including the body, is to disintegrate it into its constituent elements; but the soul, as a mental entity, is not composed of parts and is thus an indissoluble unity. Although Aquinas's concept of the soul, as the "form" of the body, was derived from Aristotle rather than Plato, Aquinas too argued for its indestructibility (Summa theologiae, I, Q. 76, art. 6). The French philosopher Jacques Maritain (1882-1973), a modern Thomist, summarized the conclusion as follows: "A spiritual soul cannot be corrupted, since it possesses no matter; it cannot be disintegrated, since it has no substantial parts; it cannot lose its individual unity, since it is self-subsisting, nor its internal energy since it contains within itself all the sources of its energies" (The Range of Reason, 1952). But though it is possible to define the soul in such a way that it is incorruptible, indissoluble, and self-subsisting, critics have asked whether there is any good reason to think that souls as thus defined exist. If, on the other hand, the soul means the conscious mind or personality--something whose immortality would be of great interest to human beings--this does not seem to be an indissoluble unity. On the contrary, it seems to have a kind of organic unity that can vary in degree but that is also capable of fragmentation and dissolution.


SOUL IN ISLAMIC PHILOSOPHY
http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ip/rep/H010.htm
Summary:
For the most part Muslim philosophers agreed, as did their Greek predecessors, that the soul consists of non-rational and rational parts. The non-rational part they divided into the plant and animal souls, the rational part into the practical and the theoretical intellects. All believed that the non-rational part is linked essentially to the body, but some considered the rational part as separate from the body by nature and others that all the parts of the soul are by nature material. The philosophers agreed that, while the soul is in the body, its non-rational part is to manage the body, its practical intellect is to manage worldly affairs, including those of the body, and its theoretical intellect is to know the eternal aspects of the universe. They thought that the ultimate end or happiness of the soul depends on its ability to separate itself from the demands of the body and to focus on grasping the eternal aspects of the universe. All believed that the non-rational soul comes into being and unavoidably perishes. Some, like al-Farabi, believed that the rational soul may or may not survive eternally; others, like Ibn Sina, believed that it has no beginning and no end; still others, such as Ibn Rushd, believed that the soul with all its individual parts comes into existence and is eventually destroyed.

Life in Christ by Edward White
Chapter 8. On the Immortality of the Soul
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/%7Etcc/OP/White_On_Immortality.html
That the doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul is never once explicitly delivered throughout the whole range of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures is a fact of which every reader may satisfy himself by examination; and it is a fact which long ago has drawn the attention of thoughtful and exact inquirers.
If the doctrine be true that the spirit of man is a deathless intelligence, a power destined by its God-imposed nature to endure as long as the NECESSARY BEING, we might surely have expected to find at least some few traces of this fundamental in the ages which were illustrated by direct communication with heaven. Neither men nor languages were so differently formed in antiquity as to necessitate a steadfast neglect of every verbal reference to an idea which is alleged to lie at the basis of the system of Redemption; and one of transcendent importance in every aspect of the case, as the zeal of its modern upholders sufficiently testifies. If Redemption, and the Incarnation of the Deity which gave it its force, were 'wasted' unless man were an immortal, and the object were to redeem him from endless misery, the idea of Immortality would have occurred at least as often as the idea of Redemption. In every other instance we obtain from the Prophets and Apostles clear and frequent expressions of the doctrines which they were commissioned to deliver; even of those which unaided reason was able to discover, as the existence of God and the difference between good and evil. But in this instance nearly a hundred writers have by some astonishing fatality omitted, with one consent, all reference to the Immortality of the Soul; no sentence of the Bible containing that brief declaration 'from God,' or even a passing reference, which would have set the controversy for ever at rest. In our own times scarcely a religious work issues from the press addressed to sinful men, scarcely is a public exhortation directed to them, without a distinct exhibition of the doctrine of Immortality, of deathless being in the nature of man, as the basis of the whole theological superstructure. Now, how shall we explain the remarkable fact that neither Apostles nor Prophets have ever once employed this argument in dealing with the wicked-- 'You have immortal souls, and must live for ever in joy or woe, therefore repent!' -- an argument of almost irresistible force, if it be true? How, otherwise than by concluding that this was not their philosophy, that this doctrine formed no part of the 'wisdom of God,' and that they were withheld from proposing it to the world by Him who has declared that the eternal life of the righteous is the gift of His grace, and that 'all the wicked He will destroy'? We are taught, in certain cases, to argue confidently from the silence of the Scriptures; and since, as in the case of the priesthood of Judah (Heb. vii. 14), the Bible has 'spoken nothing' in any of its numerous books, during the fifteen centuries of its composition, concerning man's natural or necessary immortality, one gathers courage to ask for the proofs of so important a doctrine.


Livy, History of Rome 1:19.
The historian Livy says Numa Pompilius, the second king of Rome, invented the fear of the gods:
Rome was now at peace; there was no immediate prospect of attack from outside and the tight rein of constant military discipline was relaxed. In these novel circumstances there was an obvious danger of a general relaxation of the nation's moral fibre, so to prevent its occurrence Numa decided upon a step which he felt would prove more effective than anything else with a mob as rough and ignorant as the Romans were in those days. This was to inspire them with the fear of the gods...and he was in the habit of meeting the goddess Egeria at night, and that it was her authority that guided him in the establishment of such rites.

Polybius [Histories VI,56].
But among all the useful institutions, that demonstrate the superior excellence of the Roman government, the most considerable perhaps is the opinion which the people are taught to hold concerning the gods: and that, which other men regard as an object of disgrace, appears in my judgment to be the very thing by which this republic chiefly is sustained. I mean, superstition: which is impressed with all it terrors; and influences both the private actions of the citizens, and the public administration also of the state, in a degree that can scarcely be exceeded. This may appear astonishing to many. To me it is evident, that this contrivance was at first adopted for the sake of the multitude. For if it were possible that a state could be composed of wise men only, there would be no need, perhaps, of any such invention. But as the people universally are fickle and inconstant, filled with irregular desires, too precipitate in their passions, and prone to violence; there is no way left to restrain them, but by the dread of things unseen, and by the pageantry of terrifying fiction. The ancients, therefore, acted not absurdedly, nor without good reason, when they inculcated the notions concerning the gods, and the belief of infernal punishments; but much more those of the present age are to be charged with rashness and absurdity, in endeavoring to extirpate these opinions. For, not to mention effects that flow from such an institution, if, among the Greeks, for example, a single talent only be entrusted to those who have the management of any of the public money; though they give ten written sureties, with as many seals and twice as many witnesses, they are unable to discharge the trusts reposed in them with integrity. But the Romans, on the other hand, who in the course of their magistracies, and in embassies, disperse the greatest sums, are prevailed on by the single obligation of an oath to perform their duties with inviolable honesty. And as, in other states, a man is rarely found whose hands are pure from public robbery; so, among the Romans, it is no less rare to discover one that is tainted with this crime. But all things are subject to decay and change. This is a truth so evident, and so demonstrated by the perpetual and the necessary force of nature, that it needs no other proof.

Plato and the early church fathers:
http://tinyurl.com/2farvm

Doug

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #360 on: October 10, 2009, 03:09:52 AM »
This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul....

 :cloud9: For the life of me, I just don't understand why the immortality of the soul is considered "pagan".

Does anybody agree that the soul is feminine, just as Eve was feminine, who is a type of the soul? And that He called THEIR name Adam, and Adam is a type of our spirit? And that He said that if THEY ate of the wrong tree, THEY would die, and THEY were cast out of the garden? And once she was cast out, did she die and Adam live alone?

So if both died, is only one raised? If Christ, our husband died and was raised, is His bride/wife/church, not raised? Of course not, or we have no hope. But that is essentially what this pattern of the soul not being immortal, that is being suggested, IS.

Both "die", both are raised up into Him in due season. The wife/soul may take a little longer if she did not completely obey the commandment in Genesis that her desire would be to her husband and he would rule over her, but God said that is NOT GOOD for "man" to be alone. Blessings....
Everyone needs to read Cardinal's post here about two dozen times, MINIMALLY.  Not as a doctrine, creed, or whatever, but as things to be aware of as you're reading your Bible.  If you can ever be consistently aware of what she brought up here as you're reading your Bible the rest of the year, and read it daily!! -- then I genuinely believe your understanding will be transformed and enriched infinitely by it.  This is brought up sporadically in some of the extrabiblical early Church writings and they list the Scriptures that they base it on. Not room enough to do a full study of it here on this thread.  Perhaps an old thread or two that get into this at some length can be resurrected to the front of the board that it's on.  Some may balk at this as gnosticism, but it's really not.  This was taught in the 1st century by Clement of Rome and others, including Barnabas.  I'm not denying that this may come up in some of the gnostic literature, but so does the Name of Lord Jesus.  Something being brought up by them doesn't mean it originated there.  Some of you are very aware of this from the patterns laid out in the tabernacle, Proverbs, and Song of Solomon, but most people aren't willing to look that deeply into the Word and it suffices for them to stay very superficial with doctrines along established patterns of their mentors and to blow the rest of it off until the coming of the Lord.

Amen Amen Amen
Without this basic truth you simply can not understand the plan of God.
Story after story, one allegory after the next in God's Word, hinge on this most basic understanding of our creation.

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #361 on: October 10, 2009, 03:38:05 AM »

Why look at "life" and "death" after a carnal understanding/application when it is that which IS SEEN(temporal) that is (only) the pattern for (that which is given to reveal to us ) that which IS NOT SEEN(eternal/aionios)?


If we want to understand the meaning of the type, we need to first understand the natural reality of death.

The Bible teaches that God's plan is to create man in his "image." [Gen. 1:26] That's the plan. But he made Adam out of clay. And he gave him life, by breathing it into him, into his nostrils, so he became a living, breathing human. [Gen. 2:7] Eve was made from one of Adam's ribs. [Gen. 2:21] So they were made mortal creatures, like the animals. Otherwise, how could they have died?

Yes, I agree, they were made mortal.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Doug

There is some confusion about when the sentence of death came upon man. Adam and Eve eventually died, and that is the death that was threatened. It happened in the "day" that they sinned, if we understand "day" in the sense suggested in 2 Pet. 3:8. It was not a literal day, but a divine "day." Their mortality was because of sin. [Rom. 5:12]

Which contradicts the other statement that you just made above.  :dontknow:

Quote from: Doug
Edward White, a Congregational minister in late nineteenth century England, says that the orthodox churches teach there are three distinct kinds of death. (Life in Christ, chapter 6, http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/%7Etcc/OP/White-Destiny.html)

It has been held that the death threatened to Adam in case of transgression is to be understood in several distinct senses, according to the part of his complex nature which was affected by the judgment of God, and the relations to time or eternity borne by the different portions of the punishment. With nearly absolute unanimity it has been held by all the great historical Churches that when Adam sinned the sentence of death took effect upon his body, by ensuring the physical dissolution of his animal structure. This is technically called temporal death. Next, it is held that as soon as he sinned his soul was separated morally from God, and, since God is the fountain of 'spiritual life,' that apostate condition of Adam's soul is described in sacred language as spiritual death-- a description which is considered to be authorised by the Apostle Paul when he speaks of sinners being 'dead in trespasses and sins' (Eph. ii. 1). And, lastly, it is held that when this life ended, and the naturally never-dying soul went forth into the unseen world of judgment, it was doomed to enter upon a prospect of everlasting suffering in hell, which is termed eternal death.

It has been for ages the fundamental doctrine of Christian theology in Europe that in the original trial of Man in Paradise Adam was thus threatened with temporal, spiritual, and eternal death, this last sense of the term standing for everlasting damnation, or conscious punishment throughout the future eternity. Whether Adam as an individual person actually will undergo this triple condemnation is a wholly different question. But, as a representative man, there is a wonderful concurrence of divines that by his sin he incurred this appalling complex doom.


Traditional Christianity says there are three kinds of death: temporal, spiritual, and eternal. Even so, death is not complete, but rather a kind of immortality.

This is all because of the influence of pagan philosophy on the ancient world, and the Jews, and the early church fathers. Here is an example of how the Jews incorporated the pagan idea of eternal torment of the souls of the wicked, from 4 Ezra, which is thought to have been composed after the destruction of the Second Temple by Titus in AD 70.

4 Ezra 7:25-38
[25] Therefore, Ezra, empty things are for the empty, and full things are for the full.
[26] For behold, the time will come, when the signs which I have foretold to you will come to pass, that the city which now is not seen shall appear, and the land which now is hidden shall be disclosed.
[27] And every one who has been delivered from the evils that I have foretold shall see my wonders.
[28] For my son the Messiah shall be revealed with those who are with him, and those who remain shall rejoice four hundred years.
[29] And after these years my son the Messiah shall die, and all who draw human breath.
[30] And the world shall be turned back to primeval silence for seven days, as it was at the first beginnings; so that no one shall be left.
[31] And after seven days the world, which is not yet awake, shall be roused, and that which is corruptible shall perish.
[32] And the earth shall give up those who are asleep in it, and the dust those who dwell silently in it; and the chambers shall give up the souls which have been committed to them.
[33] And the Most High shall be revealed upon the seat of judgment, and compassion shall pass away, and patience shall be withdrawn;
[34] but only judgment shall remain, truth shall stand, and faithfulness shall grow strong.
[35] And recompense shall follow, and the reward shall be manifested; righteous deeds shall awake, and unrighteous deeds shall not sleep.
[36] Then the pit of torment shall appear, and opposite it shall be the place of rest; and the furnace of hell shall be disclosed, and opposite it the paradise of delight.
[37] Then the Most High will say to the nations that have been raised from the dead, `Look now, and understand whom you have denied, whom you have not served, whose commandments you have despised!
[38] Look on this side and on that; here are delight and rest, and there are fire and torments!' Thus he will speak to them on the day of judgment --


Early church fathers who were steeped in the ideas of Plato about the immortality of man's soul merged the teachings of the apostles in the NT with their own views and forged the doctrines of the church that endured for centuries. This fulfilled the prophecy of Joel, who said the sun would be turned to darkness. The sun represents the gospel. It was the true light Jesus brought. It was darkened by superstition, especially the idea of the immortality of the soul, and the unending torment of unbelievers, of which St. Augustine was the champion.

The Bible compares the death of man to that of the beast.

Eccl. 3:19
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.


Ezekiel says, "the soul that sinneth, it shall die." [Ezek. 18:4, 20]

There is nowhere in the Bible, where the phrase "immortal soul" occurs. If we try a search on those words, we get: "No results were found for immortal soul in the version(s):King James Version."

OTOH, in the NT, the word "resurrection" is found 41 times.

The death of man is the great reality that we all have to face some day. It is what the gospel is all about, and the solution, which is the resurrection of the dead, either to immortality and glory, or to judgment.

The fact of death is used as a metaphor, as is resurrection, because these are both great realities and truths. The idea of "death" as a metaphor for man's spiritual condition, living in sin, and in darkness, without hope, would be meaningless unless death was a reality. The death state is real. Plato and his followers, who argued that man's soul is immortal, are called "fools" by Paul in Romans 1:22.
   
They were so deceived, they claimed the heavens revolve around the earth! Today we all realize that is nonsense. Their views about the nature of man were no less absurd.

So the reality of death, and of the resurrection, are meaningful as metaphors in the NT, only because they are great truths; the metaphor does not negate the truth on which it is based.

Life from the dead or resurrection is the basic promise of the gospel. And it is not life only, but the restoration of man's love for God, and of our reconciliation to Him forever! That is what the gospel says.

Doug

I have said repeatedly that THIS MORTAL must ((PUT ON)) IMMORTALITY, so not sure if you are trying to inform me that the soul is not immortal; but, rest assured, that I never said that it is.  :winkgrin:

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #362 on: October 10, 2009, 03:44:08 AM »
This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul....

 :cloud9: For the life of me, I just don't understand why the immortality of the soul is considered "pagan".

Does anybody agree that the soul is feminine, just as Eve was feminine, who is a type of the soul? And that He called THEIR name Adam, and Adam is a type of our spirit? And that He said that if THEY ate of the wrong tree, THEY would die, and THEY were cast out of the garden? And once she was cast out, did she die and Adam live alone?

So if both died, is only one raised? If Christ, our husband died and was raised, is His bride/wife/church, not raised? Of course not, or we have no hope. But that is essentially what this pattern of the soul not being immortal, that is being suggested, IS.

Both "die", both are raised up into Him in due season. The wife/soul may take a little longer if she did not completely obey the commandment in Genesis that her desire would be to her husband and he would rule over her, but God said that is NOT GOOD for "man" to be alone. Blessings....

I think that part of the problem is that we become so fixated on this "one man" and this "one woman" in Genesis that we cannot see the bigger picture/story that is being shown/told. Both "Adam" and "Eve" are FIGURES. This is a parable just like so many other stories that are told throughout the scriptures.  :thumbsup:

 :2c:

Offline Taffy

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #363 on: October 10, 2009, 03:47:27 AM »
This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul....

 :cloud9: For the life of me, I just don't understand why the immortality of the soul is considered "pagan".

Does anybody agree that the soul is feminine, just as Eve was feminine, who is a type of the soul? And that He called THEIR name Adam, and Adam is a type of our spirit? And that He said that if THEY ate of the wrong tree, THEY would die, and THEY were cast out of the garden? And once she was cast out, did she die and Adam live alone?

So if both died, is only one raised? If Christ, our husband died and was raised, is His bride/wife/church, not raised? Of course not, or we have no hope. But that is essentially what this pattern of the soul not being immortal, that is being suggested, IS.

Both "die", both are raised up into Him in due season. The wife/soul may take a little longer if she did not completely obey the commandment in Genesis that her desire would be to her husband and he would rule over her, but God said that is NOT GOOD for "man" to be alone. Blessings....

I think that part of the problem is that we become so fixated on this "one man" and this "one woman" in Genesis that we cannot see the bigger picture/story that is being shown/told. Both "Adam" and "Eve" are FIGURES. This is a parable just like the so many others that are contained throughout scripture.  :thumbsup:

 :2c:
AMEN

 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #364 on: October 10, 2009, 06:32:58 AM »
The rational of the soul alone, will never capture the wind!

     " Lord teach us to walk in love with the Spirit."

peacemaker 

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #365 on: October 10, 2009, 07:37:11 AM »
Notice how Beloved Servant just could not quote the whole quote? I wrote: " Martin, show me all the signs and miracles which are happening in the last 2000 years which reveal Christ and the 12 have been reigning on the earth."

Many will say: "What's happened to his promise to return? Ever since our ancestors fell asleep, everything continues as it did from the beginning of the world, or creation."

Are you still waiting for a chronological list of events (before death)?

Quote
Show me where Christ and the 12 have been reigning on the earth physically for almost 2000 years.

Search the Scriptures, you may find them?

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #366 on: October 10, 2009, 07:43:33 AM »
Search the Scriptures, you may find them?

 :cloud9: Amen.......and they're even closer than that.......:thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #367 on: October 10, 2009, 05:04:45 PM »
Tony N on October 08, 2009, 08:37:56 AM
Notice how Beloved Servant just could not quote the whole quote? I wrote: " Martin, show me all the signs and miracles which are happening in the last 2000 years which reveal Christ and the 12 have been reigning on the earth."

Quote
Peacemaker replied:
Many will say: "What's happened to his promise to return? Ever since our ancestors fell asleep, everything continues as it did from the beginning of the world, or creation."

Are you still waiting for a chronological list of events (before death)?


I don't go according to chronological list of events. I go by this:

Rom 11:25-26  For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."  (26)  And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."

The complement of the nations has not entered yet. Once the last person who is supposed to complete the Body of Christ then Christ returns.
You misunderstand the above verse you quoted, PeaceMaker. Here is the verse and its context:

2Pe 3:4-9  and saying, "Where is the promise of His presence? For since the fathers were put to repose, all is continuing thus from the beginning of creation."

Notice, it does not say, "When is He coming back?" But these people are asking "Where is the promise in the Scriptures of His presence?"

2Pet.3: (5)  For they want to be oblivious of this, that there were heavens of old, and an earth cohering out of water and through water, by the word of God;"  (6)  through which the then world, being deluged by water, perished."  (7)  Yet the heavens now, and the earth, by the same word, are stored with fire, being kept for the day of the judging and destruction of irreverent men."  (8)  Now of this one thing you are not to be oblivious, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day."  (9)  The Lord is not tardy as to the promise, as some are deeming tardiness, but is patient because of you, not intending any to perish, but all to make room for repentance." 

Of course I still look for a visible, real, tangible Christ to return and take us to Himself.

Tony asked:
Show me where Christ and the 12 have been reigning on the earth physically for almost 2000 years.

Quote
PeaceMaker replied
Search the Scriptures, you may find them?

That does not answer the question. According to the Preterist, we have been living in the millennium for the last 2000 years. Yet during this time Christ and the 12 apostles are to sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel and are to be shepherding the nations. Open your eyes PeaceMaker and look around you. When is the last time you saw any of this?

Oh, and the believers of the nations are taken to be with the Lord prior to the setting up of the kingdom. If the millennium came in 70 A.D. then obviously the complement of the nations entered prior to 70 A.D. and we are all under law and under the 12 Jewish apostles and not under Paul.

Now ya wanna re-think your position?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #368 on: October 10, 2009, 05:35:17 PM »
Tony,

When the scriptures say that "arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer" you don't see this as speaking of the coming of Christ in the flesh? But as "the second coming" of Christ? Was it not at the coming of Christ in the flesh (the first time) when all (whether Jew or Gentile, bond or free) were gathered together "in Him" making "one new man"?

You say that in 2 Pet 3:4-9 the question is being asked about where to find something "in the scriptures" (is that right)? Then why do they continue the question with "for since the fathers were put to repose, all is continuing thus from the beginning of creation"?

Sounds to me that perhaps they, too, are looking for a physical manifestation of something that they were not "seeing".

Christ comes THE SECOND TIME... UNTO THEM THAT LOOK FOR HIM. How does that translate into a physical manifestation of not only The Messiah but of "a city" and "twelve thrones", etc?? 

Seems like you don't like "spiritual" interpretations, as you dismiss them as bunch of  "gnostic" crap?? Yet we are told to look not on that which is seen but on those things that are NOT SEEN, as they are they which are eternal/aionios:

2Co 4:11-18  For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you. We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


The kingdom of God comes not with observation, right? So why are you looking outside of yourself for it?


Offline CHB

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #369 on: October 10, 2009, 06:22:56 PM »
Quote from: Chris
Christ comes THE SECOND TIME... UNTO THEM THAT LOOK FOR HIM. How does that translate into a physical manifestation of not only The Messiah but of "a city" and "twelve thrones", etc??

Hi Chris,

I see what you are saying and it makes sense. I am leaning toward the fact that Jesus came and took back with him the saints. This would be after paul died but John was still alive. I am still trying to piece all of this together.  There are so many scriptures that speak of this.

My problem with this is, what is next? Is Christ going to return with his saints and set up an earthly kingdom? Some scripture does point to this. Or has the kingdom that Jesus talked about already happened?

If so, what will happen next, is my question? Will Christ return and resurrect everyone and that will be the "White Throne Judgment".  Everyone that is dead and alive at that time will become immortal.

Or, will we be changed after we die and go on to be with Christ  and things continue as they are? This doesn't sound quite right to me. I do believe there will be an end to all things as they are now. Everything will be changed, not destroyed.

Would appreciate your opinion on this. Thanks.  :happy3:

CHB


Offline sheila

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #370 on: October 10, 2009, 07:59:54 PM »
    just had this quickened to me.

    Luke 16;19   Jesus gave us this answer there in the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus.

    v 30 No,father Abraham,he said,  but if someone from the dead goes to them they will repent.

   He said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets,they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead

Offline jabcat

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #371 on: October 10, 2009, 09:24:20 PM »
Maybe it's both, not either/or - spiritual AND literal.

The Kingdom of God within, Him ruling and reigning in our hearts (as believers) etc., but ALSO,

He will come and physically be among us, the time of Gentiles will be fulfilled and all Israel will be saved, and as Martin recently posted, there really also will be a 1000 year literal reign.

What keeps it from being both?  Might solve some of these arguments.  :bigGrin:
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 09:50:53 PM by jabcat »

Offline sparrow

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #372 on: October 10, 2009, 09:59:24 PM »
Maybe it's both, not either/or - spiritual AND literal.

The Kingdom of God within, Him ruling and reigning in our hearts (as believers) etc., but ALSO,

He will come and physically be among us, the time of Gentiles will be fulfilled and all Israel will be saved, and as Martin recently posted, there really also will be a 1000 year literal reign.

What keeps it from being both?  Might solve some of these arguments.  :bigGrin:

Yeah, see this is the way I see a lot of things...
both.

Why can't it be both?

That is what I'd like to know.
Why can't it be both??  :thewife:

I'm not really mad.  :laughing7:
I just say that in my head so many times when reading posts...
"arrghhh. why can't it be both?"
great.
I'm turning into a pirate again.
Thanks jab.

"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

aspiring son

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #373 on: October 10, 2009, 10:20:28 PM »
This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul....

 :cloud9: For the life of me, I just don't understand why the immortality of the soul is considered "pagan".

Does anybody agree that the soul is feminine, just as Eve was feminine, who is a type of the soul? And that He called THEIR name Adam, and Adam is a type of our spirit? And that He said that if THEY ate of the wrong tree, THEY would die, and THEY were cast out of the garden? And once she was cast out, did she die and Adam live alone?

So if both died, is only one raised? If Christ, our husband died and was raised, is His bride/wife/church, not raised? Of course not, or we have no hope. But that is essentially what this pattern of the soul not being immortal, that is being suggested, IS.

Both "die", both are raised up into Him in due season. The wife/soul may take a little longer if she did not completely obey the commandment in Genesis that her desire would be to her husband and he would rule over her, but God said that is NOT GOOD for "man" to be alone. Blessings....
Everyone needs to read Cardinal's post here about two dozen times, MINIMALLY.  Not as a doctrine, creed, or whatever, but as things to be aware of as you're reading your Bible.  If you can ever be consistently aware of what she brought up here as you're reading your Bible the rest of the year, and read it daily!! -- then I genuinely believe your understanding will be transformed and enriched infinitely by it.  This is brought up sporadically in some of the extrabiblical early Church writings and they list the Scriptures that they base it on. Not room enough to do a full study of it here on this thread.  Perhaps an old thread or two that get into this at some length can be resurrected to the front of the board that it's on.  Some may balk at this as gnosticism, but it's really not.  This was taught in the 1st century by Clement of Rome and others, including Barnabas.  I'm not denying that this may come up in some of the gnostic literature, but so does the Name of Lord Jesus.  Something being brought up by them doesn't mean it originated there.  Some of you are very aware of this from the patterns laid out in the tabernacle, Proverbs, and Song of Solomon, but most people aren't willing to look that deeply into the Word and it suffices for them to stay very superficial with doctrines along established patterns of their mentors and to blow the rest of it off until the coming of the Lord.

Amen Amen Amen
Without this basic truth you simply can not understand the plan of God.
Story after story, one allegory after the next in God's Word, hinge on this most basic understanding of our creation.

This blessed me very much. Good word. Key word.

Maybe it's both, not either/or - spiritual AND literal.

The Kingdom of God within, Him ruling and reigning in our hearts (as believers) etc., but ALSO,

He will come and physically be among us, the time of Gentiles will be fulfilled and all Israel will be saved, and as Martin recently posted, there really also will be a 1000 year literal reign.

What keeps it from being both?  Might solve some of these arguments.  :bigGrin:

Yeah, see this is the way I see a lot of things...
both.

Why can't it be both?

That is what I'd like to know.
Why can't it be both??  :thewife:

I'm not really mad.  :laughing7:
I just say that in my head so many times when reading posts...
"arrghhh. why can't it be both?"
great.
I'm turning into a pirate again.
Thanks jab.



I don't think there's any proof that it can't be both.

Blessings,

Brandon

Doug

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #374 on: October 11, 2009, 12:23:07 AM »
The Bible teaches that God's plan is to create man in his "image." [Gen. 1:26] That's the plan. But he made Adam out of clay. And he gave him life, by breathing it into him, into his nostrils, so he became a living, breathing human. [Gen. 2:7] Eve was made from one of Adam's ribs. [Gen. 2:21] So they were made mortal creatures, like the animals. Otherwise, how could they have died?

Yes, I agree, they were made mortal.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Doug

There is some confusion about when the sentence of death came upon man. Adam and Eve eventually died, and that is the death that was threatened. It happened in the "day" that they sinned, if we understand "day" in the sense suggested in 2 Pet. 3:8. It was not a literal day, but a divine "day." Their mortality was because of sin. [Rom. 5:12]

Which contradicts the other statement that you just made above.  :dontknow:


Do you think Rom. 5:12 refers to a different kind of death?

Rom. 5:5-12
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


In the above verses, the words "death," "died," and "die," must all refer to the same kind of death. It would not do at all for the "death" referred to in verse 12 to be some different, allegorical death. That would make no sense. And the death it refers to is the same kind that Christ died, as mentioned in verse 6.

So, Paul suggests the mortality of man is because of sin. When Peter said that a "day" can be as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day, he may have understood it from the fact that Adam died within 1,000 years, and God had said that he would die in the same "day."

Paul said death entered the world because of sin. And it was the sin of one man, Adam, according to Genesis. Although the plan was to make man in God's image, God made man mortal first, because he needed to learn not to sin.

Doug