Author Topic: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?  (Read 43637 times)

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Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #325 on: October 06, 2009, 04:37:43 AM »
Everyday, I put a sacrifice on the alter to burn.
He will burn it if we put it.
But, if we do not place it He will not take it.
Amen Father.
My selfish will is my free offering.
Dispense of me, so Thy will be done in my earth as it is my heaven.

Doug

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #326 on: October 06, 2009, 05:55:40 AM »
If there were some part of Christ that did not die on the cross, how could his death be sufficient for our salvation?

Suppose Christ's body died, but not his "soul." For the sake of this argument, let's assume the "soul" means his consciousness, or his mind. In that case, the death of his body could redeem our bodies, but would not be sufficient to redeem our "souls." They would still be in need of redemption. Thus, our only hope is that when Christ died, he died completely, including his "soul."

Doug

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #327 on: October 06, 2009, 06:52:46 AM »
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery...

1 Corinthians 2:8
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.



Psalm 24:10
Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #328 on: October 06, 2009, 06:55:23 AM »

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his [Jesus'] resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."


Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left. (Luke 17:33-36)

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body, although, for now we see through a glass, darkly.
Nevertheless, then face to face; in his presence. If the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen, either.

"Deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime, subject to bondage."

peacemaker

Offline sparrow

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #329 on: October 06, 2009, 07:11:54 AM »

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his [Jesus'] resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."


Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left. (Luke 17:33-36)

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body, although, for now we see through a glass, darkly.
Nevertheless, then face to face; in his presence. If the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen, either.

"Deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime, subject to bondage."

peacemaker


oh that's WONDERFUL peacemaker!
Just wonderful!  :clapping:
Thanks for posting that.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #330 on: October 07, 2009, 01:45:54 AM »
PAUL TO THE COLOSSIANS
Chapter 2
8 Beware that no one shall be despoiling you through philosophy and empty seduction, in accord with human tradition, in accord with the elements of the world, and not in accord with Christ,
9 for in Him the entire complement of the Deity is dwelling bodily.


For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily[/b][/color]

For the King James Version doth consist in much B.S. as it regardeth a good translation.

"Fulness of the Godhead bodily"?
If All of God was in Christ, then how was it Jesus taught the disciples to pray: "Our Father which art in heaven"?

If all of the "Godhead" was in Christ, then how did God say from heaven "this is my beloved Son"?

If all of the "Godhead" was in Christ, then why did Jesus say to Mary, I am ascending to my Father and your Father and My God and your God?

Jesus died. To say Jesus did not really die is to say He did not really die for our sins. It rips the heart right out of the Gospel. But, I guess the most of you here don't really care about that. You'd rather have your pagan ideas rather than the truth.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #331 on: October 07, 2009, 02:03:55 AM »
Of course He died.  And He rose again.  He is the Son of God and God raised Him from the dead.  Thus our promise of a resurrection and life with Him without end.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

martincisneros

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #332 on: October 07, 2009, 02:17:53 AM »
For the King James Version doth consist in much B.S. as it regardeth a good translation.

"Fulness of the Godhead bodily"?
If All of God was in Christ, then how was it Jesus taught the disciples to pray: "Our Father which art in heaven"?
Easy, heaven's not just another planet, but beyond the natural eye.  He was laying down patterns for when He was gone, and correcting much nonsense in Judaism.
If all of the "Godhead" was in Christ, then how did God say from heaven "this is my beloved Son"?
You're presuming the voice came from up, or presupposing one of the oversimplifications from the movies that are merely portraying a Catholic interpretation.
If all of the "Godhead" was in Christ, then why did Jesus say to Mary, I am ascending to my Father and your Father and My God and your God?
Difference between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- next...;-)
Jesus died. To say Jesus did not really die is to say He did not really die for our sins. It rips the heart right out of the Gospel. But, I guess the most of you here don't really care about that. You'd rather have your pagan ideas rather than the truth.
You've got spirit, soul, and body totally confused.  As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.  Paul said to depart and be with Christ is far better, and in saying that, the understood subject in Philippians 1 was them cutting off his head, not a nonsensical interpretation of 1Thessalonians 4 that's only about being caught up into God's throne.  There's a difference between being made alive in Ephesians 2 and raised up to sit with Christ in heavenly places.  They don't take place at the same time, as the lives of many Christians demonstrate day after day when they have on a daily experience the same experience as the 7 sons of sceva.

It's not a physical phenomenon in 1Thessalonians 4, and the 1Corinthians 15 immortality of the physical body has no catching away associated with it.  There is no rapture.  1Thessalonians 4 is only being caught up to sit with Him in heavenly places per completing the same 40 day fast that He did, per the closing verse of Isaiah 58.  And obviously, you have to have been made His righteousness and the fullness of Him that filleth all in all before that could even be applicable.  We all already know you can't earn sitting on God's throne.  But there is a bridge to cross on that 40 day.  He left us an example that we should follow in His footsteps per 1Peter 2 and Philippians 2.  Innumerable other passages on this, but being brief.

Conscious existence after the destruction of the flesh doesn't imply that the flesh is any less obliterated from union with that spirit.  Read or reread Andrew Jukes sometime 'cause he explains death, Biblically.  It's the exiting out of the life of some given world under consideration.  Doesn't mean nonexistence.  And any time we want pagan ideas, we'll go back to premillenialism 'cause that's the height of Zoarastrianism!

Offline jabcat

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #333 on: October 07, 2009, 02:31:32 AM »
And when I typed my reply, I was thinking that I didn't know how long Jesus was dead.  His body rose in 3 days, but for all I know, it was 1 billionth of one milisecond that His spirit passed from that body into whatever other realm (the spirit realm) in which it existed.  With my sunglasses on, seems to me His spirit would have returned to the Father, then He proclaimed, didn't He?

Bottom line, I just have to believe He died and rose again just as He said.  I'll keep watching for greater minds to figure out the other details.  :laughing7:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #334 on: October 07, 2009, 05:25:00 AM »
I went and looked, and Googling 'Andrew Jukes death', this is the first thing I came across.  A letter from Andrew Jukes late in his life.  Hmm, what to make of this... :Chinscratch:

http://pages.prodigy.net/travis.ogletree/jukessubstitution.htm

Excerpt:

"Your letter of July 23., reached me this week. I am now an old man, and all the writing is more or less an effort to me. The days are past when I could gird myself and walk wither I would.....

The wrong view of Substitution, which is the so-called Evangelical or Puritan view, is that Christ, the Son of God, came into our place, not only by death to deliver us out of our place, (which is true,) but that we never should be in our place, which is simply nonsense and contradiction. Certainly he did not die that we should not die, as is so often and so falsely said; for ONLY "if we be dead with him shall we live with him," He did not take our place that we should never take it, for it is our place and we are by nature in it - "by nature children of wrath, even as other men." But He took our place, our nature and curse, standing with us in our lot, first to give us his life, and then by his death and "RESURRECTION" to bring us out of our lot into His lot. In a word, we are delivered not from death but BY it, and OUT OF IT. Our salvation is not the saving or reinstating of the old man; but his condemnation through the incarnation and death and resurrection of the Son of God, through our death and resurrection in him and WITH him."

I'm going to look at some more of his writings...

« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 06:15:13 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #335 on: October 07, 2009, 06:11:29 AM »
In another writing, he also says this:

"giving the clue to all the judgments of Him,
[Death the way of life]
who "killeth and maketh alive," who "bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up," (1 Sam. 2:6; Deut. 32:39)....death cannot be the end of existence, but is only a passing out of one world into another, by this death to God man who is a spirit lost the place which God had given him, the Paradise, called by Paul "the third heaven," (2 Cor. 12:2, 4."

Continuing, he seems to me to be talking much about spiritual death and resurrection (and perhaps physical, as well)   http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/jukes2-3.html


"Such was the fall of man, and it explains why death is needful for our return to God. Death is the <page 74> only way out of any world in which we are. It was by death to God we fell out of God's world. And it is by death with Christ to sin and to this world that we are delivered in spirit from sin, that is the dark world, and in body from the toil and changes of this outward world. For we are, as Scripture and our own hearts tell us, not only in body in this outward world, but in our spirits are living in a spiritual world, which surely is not heaven, for no soul of man till regenerate is at rest or satisfied; and being thus fallen, the only way out of these worlds is death: so long as we live their life, we must be in them. To get out of them, therefore, we must die: die to this elemental nature, to get out of the seen world, and die to sin, to get out of the dark world, called in Scripture "the power of darkness" (Col 1:13). And since the life of the one is toil and change, and the life of the other is dissatisfaction and inward restlessness, we must die to both if we would be free from the changes of this world, and from the restlessness and dissatisfaction in which by nature our spirits are. Christ died this double death for us, not only "to sin," (Rom 6:10) but also "to the elements of this world" (Col 2:20). And to be free, we also must die with Him to both. Only by such a death are we delivered." - Andrew Jukes

« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 06:16:00 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Doug

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #336 on: October 07, 2009, 06:14:18 AM »
Klyne Snodgrass, commenting on a book by Anglican bishop and New Testament scholar N. T. Wright, Surprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the Mission of the Church, says:

The point that Wright pushes and which the interviews latch onto is that the New Testament message is not about going to heaven. There are numerous places where I disagree with Wright, especially in his seeing the coming of the Son of Man as the destruction of Jerusalem. That will just not do justice to texts like Matthew 24:29-31, especially when compared to Matthew 13:36-43. But, Tom is right when he tries to move people away from the individualistic notion that the gospel is about me going to heaven. The gospel is not about me--or you, nor is it about escaping this world to go to another. Such ideas are Platonic instead of Christian. They also betray a self-centeredness so pervasive that we even think salvation is about us. It includes us, but it is not about us. Jesus' message does not focus on going to heaven; it focuses on obedience to the Father and the kingdom the Father brings into being. The gospel is about God's redemption of his creation, resurrection, and life with God in a new heaven and a new earth. I have been trying to make the point for years that the gospel is not about our going to heaven. Relatively little of the New Testament even mentions this. Do not misunderstand; the passages that mention heaven are important, but they are about future life with God in his redeemed creation, which will engage us with God's ongoing work, not about escaping from this world. All of this stems rightly from an understanding of eschatology that sees the word pointing to "the entire sense of God's future for the world and the belief that that future has already begun to come forward to meet us in the present" (Surprised By Joy, 122). It also stems rightly from putting the focus where it should be--on the resurrection and the defeat of death. The gospel is about resurrection of the body, the defeat of death, and the redemption of God's good creation.

http://blog.bible.org/primetimejesus/content/going-heaven%3F

On another blog he writes about the same book:

N. T. Wright's recent book Surprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the Mission of the Church (New York: HarperOne, 2008) raises important issues about Jesus' message and eschatology. He correctly emphasizes that Jesus' message (and the NT as a whole) is not about going to heaven. Wright does not discuss "hell" much and suggests references to gehenna are primarily an earthly warning. My concern is to stress that we know far less from Scripture about "hell" than most Christians think. If asked if I believe in hell, I often respond that I believe in gehenna. Most NT writers never mention "hell" or even have much on judgment by fire. All of us know what the English word "hell" means, but that meaning derives from medieval sources (and Greco-Roman ideas) more than Scripture. The relevant scriptural words sheol, gehenna, and hades, are surprising undefined in the Bible, and I would suggest none should not be translated by "hell" because of the associations of the latter. It is better, at least for sheol and gehenna, to transliterate the words (as NRSV does for sheol).

There follows a discussion of the meaning of each term, sheol, gehenna, and hades.

http://blog.bible.org/primetimejesus/content/jesus-and-%2526quot%3Bhell%2526quot%3B

Doug

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #337 on: October 08, 2009, 03:37:37 PM »
Christ first descended before he ascended. Right?

To where did he "descend"? Was it not "into this world" - into "the abode of the dead"?

Why look at "life" and "death" after a carnal understanding/application when it is that which IS SEEN(temporal) that is (only) the pattern for (that which is given to reveal to us ) that which IS NOT SEEN(eternal/aionios)?

We do not "have" a soul, we ARE "a soul" and the difference between A LIVING SOUL and a "dead" one IS SIN. For the soul (nephesh = A BREATHIING CREATURE) that sinneth, IT shall die. One need not die PHYSICALLY in order to "be" DEAD. Neither do they need to die physically in order to be resurrected from the dead.

We seem to want to look at the shadows (that which IS SEEN) instead of looking beyond them - to what they are actually meant to reveal. At least that is the conclusion that I have come to through my own studies over the last couple of years.

As I see it, the pattern is shown in Genesis with Adam (the pattern/figure of Him who was to come) when God breathed the breath of life into him (the spirit of God) and he became "a living soul". We are not "created" UNTIL God sends forth HIS SPIRIT.

It's not just a matter of body + spirit = living soul

(As I used to see it)

as that is true according to a spiritual truth, as we as a physical one.

Such that, it seem to me:

body + spirit (of man) = living soul (living after a carnal truth)  [ie: body + spirit = soul (breathing creature... one that is/can be DEAD IN SIN)]

But:

body + spirit (of man) + SPIRIT OF GOD (breath of life) = A LIVING SOUL (after a spiritual truth)

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #338 on: October 08, 2009, 03:37:56 PM »
Martin, I'm really surprised by what you wrote; surprised in a sad way.

For the King James Version doth consist in much B.S. as it regardeth a good translation.

"Fulness of the Godhead bodily"?
If All of God was in Christ, then how was it Jesus taught the disciples to pray: "Our Father which art in heaven"?
Martin replied: Easy, heaven's not just another planet, but beyond the natural eye.  He was laying down patterns for when He was gone, and correcting much nonsense in Judaism.

Tony's reply:
Well it sure ain't on the earth nor below the earth.

Mat 16:17 Now, answering, Jesus said to him, "Happy are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood does not reveal it to you, but My Father Who is in the heavens."



If all of the "Godhead" was in Christ, then how did God say from heaven "this is my beloved Son"?
Martin replied: You're presuming the voice came from up, or presupposing one of the oversimplifications from the movies that are merely portraying a Catholic interpretation.
Tony's reply:
Mar 1:11  And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Luk 3:22  And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Luk 11:2  And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.  Two different spheres, friend.
Psa 139:8  If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Heaven is up.


If all of the "Godhead" was in Christ, then why did Jesus say to Mary, I am ascending to my Father and your Father and My God and your God?
Martin replied: Difference between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- next...;-)

Tony's reply:
The term "Godhead" is the figment of middle dark-ages mentality. Did you get the word there "ascending"? He was not going horizontally to God but up to where His God is, in heaven.


Jesus died. To say Jesus did not really die is to say He did not really die for our sins. It rips the heart right out of the Gospel. But, I guess the most of you here don't really care about that. You'd rather have your pagan ideas rather than the truth.
Martin replied: You've got spirit, soul, and body totally confused.  As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.  Paul said to depart and be with Christ is far better, and in saying that, the understood subject in Philippians 1 was them cutting off his head, not a nonsensical interpretation of 1Thessalonians 4 that's only about being caught up into God's throne.  There's a difference between being made alive in Ephesians 2 and raised up to sit with Christ in heavenly places.  They don't take place at the same time, as the lives of many Christians demonstrate day after day when they have on a daily experience the same experience as the 7 sons of sceva.[/quote]

And you brought up a red herring which has absolutely nothing to do with my statement. I will repeat: If Christ did not really die, this is to say He did not really die for our sins. If He just sort of died, not completely died, then our sins were just sort of died for, not completely died for. Paul was not intimating that "to be with Christ is much better" that this meant if he died he would be with Christ. Paul said the only time we meet the Lord is when AS A WHOLE GROUP, the dead believers come out of their graves and the living believers are changed and AT THE SAME TIME MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. Paul saying: "Phi 1:23 (Yet I am being pressed out of the two, having a yearning for the solution and to be together with Christ, for it, rather, is much better.)" Get that? Paul was not saying to depart (die) is to be with Christ.


Quote
Martin continues: It's not a physical phenomenon in 1Thessalonians 4, and the 1Corinthians 15 immortality of the physical body has no catching away associated with it.  There is no rapture.  1Thessalonians 4 is only being caught up to sit with Him in heavenly places per completing the same 40 day fast that He did, per the closing verse of Isaiah 58.  And obviously, you have to have been made His righteousness and the fullness of Him that filleth all in all before that could even be applicable.  We all already know you can't earn sitting on God's throne.  But there is a bridge to cross on that 40 day.  He left us an example that we should follow in His footsteps per 1Peter 2 and Philippians 2.  Innumerable other passages on this, but being brief.

Conscious existence after the destruction of the flesh doesn't imply that the flesh is any less obliterated from union with that spirit.  Read or reread Andrew Jukes sometime 'cause he explains death, Biblically.  It's the exiting out of the life of some given world under consideration.  Doesn't mean nonexistence.  And any time we want pagan ideas, we'll go back to premillenialism 'cause that's the height of Zoarastrianism!

Oh brother, now you are accusing Daniel, Jesus and Paul of being Zoarastrians who all believed in premillenialism. Those who don't believe the premillenial truth are ensconsed in paganism.

But what does premillennialism have to do with whether Christ preached to the dead while dead? It is just another red herring by you to get off the main point of my post.

And Molly, I'm surprised at you too saying that if the Old Testament teaches the dead are really dead then it no longer is the truth. It is just that those verses don't agree with your idea so instead of bending to what the Bible says you'd rather bow to pagan ideas and wed those ideas to the Bible?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 03:37:13 AM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

martincisneros

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #339 on: October 08, 2009, 06:21:10 PM »
Tony's reply:
Well it sure ain't on the earth nor below the earth.

Mat 16:17 Now, answering, Jesus said to him, "Happy are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood does not reveal it to you, but My Father Who is in the heavens."
Mar 1:11  And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Luk 3:22  And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Luk 11:2  And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.  Two different spheres, friend.
Psa 139:8  If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Heaven is up.
Doesn't matter how many of these you quote.  Heaven isn't up in the least. It's within, according to Lord Jesus.  Not every heaven reference in the Bible is what the Old Testament has as "heaven of heavens" or what St. Paul called being caught up to the third heaven.  Biblically "heaven" is His throne and if you make our heaven an eschatalogical event that doesn't begin 'til the resurrection, then you're in denial of, or honestly ignorant of, too many Scriptures that speak of His reign having been continuous from the beginning and our reign commencing with our being made a new creation and the process of the renewal of our minds as we put on the new man here in this life.
The term "Godhead" is the figment of middle dark-ages mentality. Did you get the word there "ascending"? He was not going horizontally to God but up to where His God is, in heaven.
Heaven's not up.  Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost wasn't a shooting star or a meteor that everybody saw coming down upon them that crashed into that building.
And you brought up a red herring which has absolutely nothing to do with my statement. I will repeat: If Christ did not really die, this is to say He did not really die for our sins. If He just sort of died, not completely died, then our sins were just sort of died for, not completely died for. Paul was not intimating that "to be with Christ is much better" that this meant if he died he would be with Christ. Paul said the only time we meet the Lord is when AS A WHOLE GROUP, the dead believers come out of their graves and the living believers are changed and AT THE SAME TIME MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. Paul saying: "Phi 1:23 (Yet I am being pressed out of the two, having a yearning for the solution and to be together with Christ, for it, rather, is much better.)" Get that? Paul was not saying to depart (die) is to be with Christ.
He completely died in that He was made sin and was forsaken of God, as Adam in the garden was completely dead when he sinned in the garden according to Romans 5. The death that he died wasn't 930yrs later.  That's not the death the Bible speaks of that in the day that he ate, he died the death.  And to yearn for the solution and to be together with Christ doesn't let you out of anything either, just 'cause you reject the mainstream translations.  He wasn't talking about an eschatological solution, but the resolution of what the Romans wanted to do to him and whether or not he'd submit to that.  Either way you go on the translation, you're still in the dilema that there's nothing in either translation that says anything eschatologically, but it's talking about his departure from his physical body as the solution, or whether he'd stay in his body as the solution.
Oh brother, now you are accusing Daniel, Jesus and Paul of being Zoarastrians who all believed in premillenialism. Those who don't believe the premillenial truth are ensconsed in paganism.
They didn't believe in Premillenialism.  They were emphatically Postmillenialists.  Everything that would be quoted from them supports the Postmillenial perspective, not the premillenial.
But what does premillennialism have to do with whether Christ preached to the dead while dead? It is just another red herring by you to get off the main point of my post.
No, you were calling people pagans, and I was pointing out the glass house you're in on where paganism is in your ideology rather than sound Biblical thinking.
And Molly, I'm surprised at you too saying that if the Old Testament teaches the dead are really dead then it no longer is the truth.
You're presupposing the death of the body and the death of the spirit and soul are the same thing, when they're emphatically not.  Death is exiting the life of some given world.  Not annihilation until resurrection.  To die to God is to exit the heavens by sin, as Adam did, and in the way that Christ Jesus became obedient to death and became the sin of the world according to 2Corinthians 5:21.  The death of the body is to exit the life of this physical world.  And there's nothing about the death of the soul in the Scriptures.  Only it's loss if it's not renewed, since the soul is simply mind, will, emotion, and desire.  The Apostles taught the saving of the soul via the renewing of the mind with the Scriptures, i.e. the day dawning and the day star arising in your hearts.

That's neither spooky nor eschatological.  That's simply the Word of God doing what it was designed to do in nourishing the whole man and becoming the anchor of the soul, so that the heart is steadfast, trusting in the Lord, seeing it's desire upon it's enemies, et. al.  I realize the Concordant renders something as extermination, but when you exterminate a roach you're not talking about a spiritual process, but about the putting down of them physically.  Same thing in Thessalonians, where it's simply talking about the extermination of people's physical bodies and isn't implying anything counter to the rest of the Scriptures that teach conscious existance post mortem of the body. 

Lord Jesus became the sin of the world, according to 2Corinthians 5:21, Isaiah 52:14, and many other passages that describe this "baring away" as being as deeply within Himself as it ever went within any of us.  And then according to Acts 13, Hebrews chapter 1 has some of the Words that God used when He raised Jesus from the dead.  He was begotten of God in the resurrection and became the firstborn from the dead.  And what He got, we get :cloud9:

Doug

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #340 on: October 08, 2009, 07:53:16 PM »

Why look at "life" and "death" after a carnal understanding/application when it is that which IS SEEN(temporal) that is (only) the pattern for (that which is given to reveal to us ) that which IS NOT SEEN(eternal/aionios)?


If we want to understand the meaning of the type, we need to first understand the natural reality of death.

The Bible teaches that God's plan is to create man in his "image." [Gen. 1:26] That's the plan. But he made Adam out of clay. And he gave him life, by breathing it into him, into his nostrils, so he became a living, breathing human. [Gen. 2:7] Eve was made from one of Adam's ribs. [Gen. 2:21] So they were made mortal creatures, like the animals. Otherwise, how could they have died?

There is some confusion about when the sentence of death came upon man. Adam and Eve eventually died, and that is the death that was threatened. It happened in the "day" that they sinned, if we understand "day" in the sense suggested in 2 Pet. 3:8. It was not a literal day, but a divine "day." Their mortality was because of sin. [Rom. 5:12]

Edward White, a Congregational minister in late nineteenth century England, says that the orthodox churches teach there are three distinct kinds of death. (Life in Christ, chapter 6, http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/%7Etcc/OP/White-Destiny.html)

It has been held that the death threatened to Adam in case of transgression is to be understood in several distinct senses, according to the part of his complex nature which was affected by the judgment of God, and the relations to time or eternity borne by the different portions of the punishment. With nearly absolute unanimity it has been held by all the great historical Churches that when Adam sinned the sentence of death took effect upon his body, by ensuring the physical dissolution of his animal structure. This is technically called temporal death. Next, it is held that as soon as he sinned his soul was separated morally from God, and, since God is the fountain of 'spiritual life,' that apostate condition of Adam's soul is described in sacred language as spiritual death-- a description which is considered to be authorised by the Apostle Paul when he speaks of sinners being 'dead in trespasses and sins' (Eph. ii. 1). And, lastly, it is held that when this life ended, and the naturally never-dying soul went forth into the unseen world of judgment, it was doomed to enter upon a prospect of everlasting suffering in hell, which is termed eternal death.

It has been for ages the fundamental doctrine of Christian theology in Europe that in the original trial of Man in Paradise Adam was thus threatened with temporal, spiritual, and eternal death, this last sense of the term standing for everlasting damnation, or conscious punishment throughout the future eternity. Whether Adam as an individual person actually will undergo this triple condemnation is a wholly different question. But, as a representative man, there is a wonderful concurrence of divines that by his sin he incurred this appalling complex doom.


Traditional Christianity says there are three kinds of death: temporal, spiritual, and eternal. Even so, death is not complete, but rather a kind of immortality.

This is all because of the influence of pagan philosophy on the ancient world, and the Jews, and the early church fathers. Here is an example of how the Jews incorporated the pagan idea of eternal torment of the souls of the wicked, from 4 Ezra, which is thought to have been composed after the destruction of the Second Temple by Titus in AD 70.

4 Ezra 7:25-38
[25] Therefore, Ezra, empty things are for the empty, and full things are for the full.
[26] For behold, the time will come, when the signs which I have foretold to you will come to pass, that the city which now is not seen shall appear, and the land which now is hidden shall be disclosed.
[27] And every one who has been delivered from the evils that I have foretold shall see my wonders.
[28] For my son the Messiah shall be revealed with those who are with him, and those who remain shall rejoice four hundred years.
[29] And after these years my son the Messiah shall die, and all who draw human breath.
[30] And the world shall be turned back to primeval silence for seven days, as it was at the first beginnings; so that no one shall be left.
[31] And after seven days the world, which is not yet awake, shall be roused, and that which is corruptible shall perish.
[32] And the earth shall give up those who are asleep in it, and the dust those who dwell silently in it; and the chambers shall give up the souls which have been committed to them.
[33] And the Most High shall be revealed upon the seat of judgment, and compassion shall pass away, and patience shall be withdrawn;
[34] but only judgment shall remain, truth shall stand, and faithfulness shall grow strong.
[35] And recompense shall follow, and the reward shall be manifested; righteous deeds shall awake, and unrighteous deeds shall not sleep.
[36] Then the pit of torment shall appear, and opposite it shall be the place of rest; and the furnace of hell shall be disclosed, and opposite it the paradise of delight.
[37] Then the Most High will say to the nations that have been raised from the dead, `Look now, and understand whom you have denied, whom you have not served, whose commandments you have despised!
[38] Look on this side and on that; here are delight and rest, and there are fire and torments!' Thus he will speak to them on the day of judgment --


Early church fathers who were steeped in the ideas of Plato about the immortality of man's soul merged the teachings of the apostles in the NT with their own views and forged the doctrines of the church that endured for centuries. This fulfilled the prophecy of Joel, who said the sun would be turned to darkness. The sun represents the gospel. It was the true light Jesus brought. It was darkened by superstition, especially the idea of the immortality of the soul, and the unending torment of unbelievers, of which St. Augustine was the champion.

The Bible compares the death of man to that of the beast.

Eccl. 3:19
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.


Ezekiel says, "the soul that sinneth, it shall die." [Ezek. 18:4, 20]

There is nowhere in the Bible, where the phrase "immortal soul" occurs. If we try a search on those words, we get: "No results were found for immortal soul in the version(s):King James Version."

OTOH, in the NT, the word "resurrection" is found 41 times.

The death of man is the great reality that we all have to face some day. It is what the gospel is all about, and the solution, which is the resurrection of the dead, either to immortality and glory, or to judgment.

The fact of death is used as a metaphor, as is resurrection, because these are both great realities and truths. The idea of "death" as a metaphor for man's spiritual condition, living in sin, and in darkness, without hope, would be meaningless unless death was a reality. The death state is real. Plato and his followers, who argued that man's soul is immortal, are called "fools" by Paul in Romans 1:22.
   
They were so deceived, they claimed the heavens revolve around the earth! Today we all realize that is nonsense. Their views about the nature of man were no less absurd.

So the reality of death, and of the resurrection, are meaningful as metaphors in the NT, only because they are great truths; the metaphor does not negate the truth on which it is based.

Life from the dead or resurrection is the basic promise of the gospel. And it is not life only, but the restoration of man's love for God, and of our reconciliation to Him forever! That is what the gospel says.

Doug
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 09:18:20 PM by Doug »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #341 on: October 09, 2009, 04:21:43 AM »
Tony's reply:
Well it sure ain't on the earth nor below the earth.

Mat 16:17 Now, answering, Jesus said to him, "Happy are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood does not reveal it to you, but My Father Who is in the heavens."
Mar 1:11  And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Luk 3:22  And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Luk 11:2  And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.  Two different spheres, friend.
Psa 139:8  If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Heaven is up.

Martin replied: Doesn't matter how many of these you quote.  Heaven isn't up in the least. It's within, according to Lord Jesus. 

Tony's reply:
"According to Jesus" or according to ignorance? Is that the Bible according to Martin? Maybe you should take the time to read the Bible first rather than come here and make yourself look like you don't know what you are talking about. Here is the verse:

 "Neither shall they be declaring 'Lo! here!' or 'Lo! there!' for lo! the kingdom of God is inside of you" (Luke 17:21).

It is "the kingdom of God," not "the kingdom of heaven."



The term "Godhead" is the figment of middle dark-ages mentality. Did you get the word there "ascending"? He was not going horizontally to God but up to where His God is, in heaven.

Martin replied:
Heaven's not up.  Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost wasn't a shooting star or a meteor that everybody saw coming down upon them that crashed into that building.[/quote]

Tony's reply: Who ever said the holy spirit was a shooting star or meteor. Just another straw man by you. What what does holy spirit have to do with whether heaven is up or not? Just another red herring from you.


And you brought up a red herring which has absolutely nothing to do with my statement. I will repeat: If Christ did not really die, this is to say He did not really die for our sins. If He just sort of died, not completely died, then our sins were just sort of died for, not completely died for. Paul was not intimating that "to be with Christ is much better" that this meant if he died he would be with Christ. Paul said the only time we meet the Lord is when AS A WHOLE GROUP, the dead believers come out of their graves and the living believers are changed and AT THE SAME TIME MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. Paul saying: "Phi 1:23 (Yet I am being pressed out of the two, having a yearning for the solution and to be together with Christ, for it, rather, is much better.)" Get that? Paul was not saying to depart (die) is to be with Christ.

Martin replied:
He completely died in that He was made sin and was forsaken of God, as Adam in the garden was completely dead when he sinned in the garden according to Romans 5. The death that he died wasn't 930yrs later.  That's not the death the Bible speaks of that in the day that he ate, he died the death.  [/quote]

Tony's reply:
You are confused. First you say Adam completely died the day he sinned then you say "that's not the death the Bible speaks of that in the day that he ate, he died the death."

Umm, Martin, The Bible does not say Adam completely died the day he sinned in the Garden. Neither does Romand 5 say Adam completely died the day he sinned. In the Old Testament the judgment for sinning was "to die shall you be dying" and God gave further understanding of that judgment when He explained to Adam after he sinned that "Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face shall you eat your bread, till your return to the ground, for from it are you taken, for soil you are, and to soil are you returning. So the death was 930 years later. Death was operating in Adam until he finally died.

Quote
Martin continues:
 And to yearn for the solution and to be together with Christ doesn't let you out of anything either, just 'cause you reject the mainstream translations.  He wasn't talking about an eschatological solution, but the resolution of what the Romans wanted to do to him and whether or not he'd submit to that.  Either way you go on the translation, you're still in the dilema that there's nothing in either translation that says anything eschatologically, but it's talking about his departure from his physical body as the solution, or whether he'd stay in his body as the solution.

Tony's reply:
Umm, Martin, you saying that the reason I have which is counter to yours concerning Paul's wanting to be with the Lord is not, as you suggest, "'cause *I* reject the mainstream translations." You may as well have said it is due to me eating sardines every Friday evening. It would have made as much convincing sense to your argument.

Actually, Paul knew the only time he would meet the Lord in a glorified body was when   "the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first,  (17)  Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." 1Th 4:16-17

I imagine you reject 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17  too? Maybe you don't believe that passage for exactly what it is saying?

So, yes, Paul was looking forward to being with the Lord in the future.




Oh brother, now you are accusing Daniel, Jesus and Paul of being Zoarastrians who all believed in premillenialism. Those who don't believe the premillenial truth are ensconsed in paganism.
Martin replied:
They didn't believe in Premillenialism.  They were emphatically Postmillenialists.  Everything that would be quoted from them supports the Postmillenial perspective, not the premillenial.

Tony's reply:
And you can back that up with Scripture I suppose?  :happy3:

But what does premillennialism have to do with whether Christ preached to the dead while dead? It is just another red herring by you to get off the main point of my post.

Martin replied:
No, you were calling people pagans, and I was pointing out the glass house you're in on where paganism is in your ideology rather than sound Biblical thinking.

Tony's reply:
Only a nut would believe we've been living in the 1,000 year millennium for 2,000 years. At least pagans can see how nutty that is.

And Molly, I'm surprised at you too saying that if the Old Testament teaches the dead are really dead then it no longer is the truth.

Martin's reply:
You're presupposing the death of the body and the death of the spirit and soul are the same thing, when they're emphatically not.  Death is exiting the life of some given world.  Not annihilation until resurrection.  To die to God is to exit the heavens by sin, as Adam did, and in the way that Christ Jesus became obedient to death and became the sin of the world according to 2Corinthians 5:21.  The death of the body is to exit the life of this physical world.  And there's nothing about the death of the soul in the Scriptures.  Only it's loss if it's not renewed, since the soul is simply mind, will, emotion, and desire.  The Apostles taught the saving of the soul via the renewing of the mind with the Scriptures, i.e. the day dawning and the day star arising in your hearts. [/quote]

Tony's reply:
Don't encourage Molly in her unbelief. What's next? First she is basically saying the Old Testament lied about "the dead know nothing" etc. So what's next? Will she finally say the whole old testament is a book of lies?

You wrote:
"You're presupposing the death of the body and the death of the spirit and soul are the same thing,"

Again, Martin, that is a straw man. I never have believed what you just accused me of believing, so why say it as if I do? The Bible knows no such things as you accuse me of.

Quote
Martin wrote:
That's neither spooky nor eschatological.  That's simply the Word of God doing what it was designed to do in nourishing the whole man and becoming the anchor of the soul, so that the heart is steadfast, trusting in the Lord, seeing it's desire upon it's enemies, et. al.  I realize the Concordant renders something as extermination, but when you exterminate a roach you're not talking about a spiritual process, but about the putting down of them physically.  Same thing in Thessalonians, where it's simply talking about the extermination of people's physical bodies and isn't implying anything counter to the rest of the Scriptures that teach conscious existance post mortem of the body. 

Lord Jesus became the sin of the world, according to 2Corinthians 5:21, Isaiah 52:14, and many other passages that describe this "baring away" as being as deeply within Himself as it ever went within any of us.  And then according to Acts 13, Hebrews chapter 1 has some of the Words that God used when He raised Jesus from the dead.  He was begotten of God in the resurrection and became the firstborn from the dead.  And what He got, we get :cloud9:

Tony's reply:
For one who believes in a current millennial reign you sure have lots of faith for which there is absolutely nothing to show for it. Please, Martin, show me all the signs and miracles which are happenning in the last 2000 years which reveal Christ and the 12 have been reigning on the earth. Oh, heck, I just took your bait! This isn't about the millennium nor pre-millennialism, it's about if Christ preached to the dead while dead!  He didn't. If He did, it cuts the heart right out of the gospel.

Sorry to be writing in such a tone as this response elicits. But this is so serious I can't be be saddened from what I am hearing on these boards. It is almost as if I have taken a step into the Twilight Zone or worse yet, the dark ages with all its superstitions and paganism.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #342 on: October 09, 2009, 04:35:12 AM »
Martin, show me all the signs and miracles which are happenning in the last 2000 years which reveal Christ

<——— Just one of Christ's miracles!

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #343 on: October 09, 2009, 04:37:24 AM »
It appears throughout the Scriptures that the soul and spirit of man are interchangeable, yet separate.

Son of man/Son of God?

The mind, will, emotions (soul?) and the essence, core, or heart (spirit?) of man are fastened together; but separable.
Therefore, put no confidence in the flesh, for the spirit is living and active:

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him, must worship in spirit and truth."

The principles of human life; feeling, thought, and action including the physical or material elements (the body) will
die, but not the Spirit/SPIRIT which are ONE.

peacemaker



Offline sparrow

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #344 on: October 09, 2009, 04:42:16 AM »
It appears throughout the Scriptures that the soul and spirit of man are interchangeable, yet separate.

Son of man/Son of God?

The mind, will, emotions (soul?) and the essence, core, or heart (spirit?) of man are fastened together; but separable.
Therefore, put no confidence in the flesh, for the spirit is living and active:

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him, must worship in spirit and truth."

The principles of human life; feeling, thought, and action including the physical or material elements (the body) will
die
, but not the Spirit/SPIRIT which are ONE.

peacemaker




So where does that leave us?
If we have no feeling, thought or action...?
What is the point?

Wait, let me back up. Are you saying die... as in forever?
Or temporarily during some "soul sleep"?


"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #345 on: October 09, 2009, 04:46:41 AM »
I ran across this post from aspiring son.  Interesting, and worth some thought.

Quote - [emphasis mine]  "i once believed in the immortality of the "soul". However since being introduce to teachings that taught to pay attention to the words i no longer believe in an immortal
soul. When we die our spirit given by The Master returns to Him.

       The only time the scriptures speak of immortality it tells us that only God has it, and we only get it after the resurrection.
        This leaves us the egnima of the words of Jesus "shall never die". It turns out that it is a bad translation of the original manuscripts, and when we see the correct translation we learn that Jesus does not contridict Gods' words to Adam in the Garden.

This is an excerpt from an article by L. Raysmith at bibletruths.com

                 "And whosoever lives and believes in Me shall NEVER DIE. Believe you this?" (John 11:26).
Wait a minute; wait a minute; wait a minute! What, pray tell, is going on here?
God told Adam that if he sinned then he would be dying until he ultimately died. And we have Scripture on that. Paul informs us that all mankind has sinned, and that the wages of sin is death. Furthermore we are told by inspiration of God's Holy Spirit that ALL in Adam will die. Then we read a verse in the King James Bible which boldly states that those who believe in Christ (even though they too have sinned), "…will NEVER DIE."
God told Adam, "you shall SURELY DIE." The Serpent then said to Eve, "you shall NOT SURELY DIE." Does everyone agree that the serpent contradicted God? Does the serpent's statement agree or disagree with the statement of God? The serpent contradicts God, doesn't he? Yes, of course he does. This is extremely elementary.

But… BUT, John 11:26 states in the King James, that whosoever believes in Jesus, "shall NEVER DIE." Now then, to whose statement does "shall NEVER DIE agree? Does it agree with God's statement "shall SURELY DIE," or with the serpent's statement, "shall NOT SURELY DIE?" Houston, we have a problem.

Did Jesus say one thing to Adam back in the Garden and then contradict Himself in His teaching of John 11:26? Does Jesus "change?" No. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and for ever" (Heb. 13:8). Not only does the serpent's statement contradict God's statement, but according to the King James, even Jesus Christ contradicts God's statement. Surely this cannot be. Remember all those statements of God regarding "adding to or taking from" the words of God? Well, I'm afraid the King James has done it again. Let's take a look at this phrase "shall never die" from John 11:26 in a Greek Interlinear:

If you have e-Sword, you can see that the word translated "never" is the translation of three Greek words, not just one. Does it really take three Greek words to represent our English word "never?" No it doesn't.
The Greek word oudeic means "not ever, none, nought" as in when Peter said to Jesus, "I will NEVER [#3762--oudeic] be offended" (Matt. 26:33). This word is translated "never" dozens of times in Scripture. However, in John 11:26 where we read "shall NEVER die," the word "never" is the singular word translation of three Greek words, not one of them being #3762, oudeic."

So what," you say? So maybe it behooves us to see just what Greek words God used in this verse, that's what. This is one of those huge translation errors. This verse as recorded in the King James flat out contradicts God's statement back in the Garden, that's why.
The word "never" in John 11:26 is translated from:
#3364 = oume, "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever."
#1519 = ice, "to, into, throughout, for."
#165 = aion, "age."
BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON
Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:
"…should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"…NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"…NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"…shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

For sure, "All have sinned… the wages of sin is death… in Adam all die."
However, those "in Christ… should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:
"…that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)
And that:
"all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).


Yes, we shall all die, but not for or through the eon. We will be raised and reign with Christ through the coming millennial eon (and beyond—"Know you not that we shall judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2).
And so it should be clear to all, that there is no word "never" in this Greek verse.
And oh how the translators hate to deal with this powerful little word aion in this verse, but they completely leave out. As anyone can plainly see, there are times when the translators just pretend that this little word, aion, isn't even there.

Theologians and preachers really hate when I expose things like this. No, I mean they really, really hate it. This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul, thus contradicting God's own statement in Gen. 2:17, "you shall surely die."

Just some food for thought." - End quote, aspiring son           
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 04:53:23 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #346 on: October 09, 2009, 05:19:54 AM »
It appears throughout the Scriptures that the soul and spirit of man are interchangeable, yet separate.

Son of man/Son of God?

The mind, will, emotions (soul?) and the essence, core, or heart (spirit?) of man are fastened together; but separable.
Therefore, put no confidence in the flesh, for the spirit is living and active:

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him, must worship in spirit and truth."

The principles of human life; feeling, thought, and action including the physical or material elements (the body) will
die
, but not the Spirit/SPIRIT which are ONE.


So where does that leave us?
If we have no feeling, thought or action...?
What is the point?

Wait, let me back up. Are you saying die... as in forever?
Or temporarily during some "soul sleep"?


Sparrow, the essence of who you are will not die, just the foolishness of this world.
There will be no more death; mourning, crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away!



martincisneros

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #347 on: October 09, 2009, 06:00:12 AM »
Tony's reply:
"According to Jesus" or according to ignorance? Is that the Bible according to Martin? Maybe you should take the time to read the Bible first rather than come here and make yourself look like you don't know what you are talking about. Here is the verse:

 "Neither shall they be declaring 'Lo! here!' or 'Lo! there!' for lo! the kingdom of God is inside of you" (Luke 17:21).

It is "the kingdom of God," not "the kingdom of heaven."

Tony's reply: Who ever said the holy spirit was a shooting star or meteor. Just another straw man by you. What what does holy spirit have to do with whether heaven is up or not? Just another red herring from you.

Tony's reply:
You are confused. First you say Adam completely died the day he sinned then you say "that's not the death the Bible speaks of that in the day that he ate, he died the death."

Umm, Martin, The Bible does not say Adam completely died the day he sinned in the Garden. Neither does Romand 5 say Adam completely died the day he sinned. In the Old Testament the judgment for sinning was "to die shall you be dying" and God gave further understanding of that judgment when He explained to Adam after he sinned that "Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face shall you eat your bread, till your return to the ground, for from it are you taken, for soil you are, and to soil are you returning. So the death was 930 years later. Death was operating in Adam until he finally died.


Tony's reply:
Umm, Martin, you saying that the reason I have which is counter to yours concerning Paul's wanting to be with the Lord is not, as you suggest, "'cause *I* reject the mainstream translations." You may as well have said it is due to me eating sardines every Friday evening. It would have made as much convincing sense to your argument.

Actually, Paul knew the only time he would meet the Lord in a glorified body was when   "the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first,  (17)  Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." 1Th 4:16-17

I imagine you reject 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17  too? Maybe you don't believe that passage for exactly what it is saying?

So, yes, Paul was looking forward to being with the Lord in the future.

Tony's reply:
And you can back that up with Scripture I suppose?  :happy3:

Tony's reply:
Only a nut would believe we've been living in the 1,000 year millennium for 2,000 years. At least pagans can see how nutty that is.

Tony's reply:
Don't encourage Molly in her unbelief. What's next? First she is basically saying the Old Testament lied about "the dead know nothing" etc. So what's next? Will she finally say the whole old testament is a book of lies?

Again, Martin, that is a straw man. I never have believed what you just accused me of believing, so why say it as if I do? The Bible knows no such things as you accuse me of.


Tony's reply:
For one who believes in a current millennial reign you sure have lots of faith for which there is absolutely nothing to show for it. Please, Martin, show me all the signs and miracles which are happenning in the last 2000 years which reveal Christ and the 12 have been reigning on the earth. Oh, heck, I just took your bait! This isn't about the millennium nor pre-millennialism, it's about if Christ preached to the dead while dead!  He didn't. If He did, it cuts the heart right out of the gospel.

Sorry to be writing in such a tone as this response elicits. But this is so serious I can't be be saddened from what I am hearing on these boards. It is almost as if I have taken a step into the Twilight Zone or worse yet, the dark ages with all its superstitions and paganism.

Tony N., you've got Amillenialism and Postmillenialism hopelessly confused.  Amillenialism believes the millenium takes place in heaven between first and second advent of Christ.  Postmillenialism is called Post, not in relation to believing that the millenium is either past or ongoing, but from the standpoint of when the Lord's coming is.  I still anticipate a glorious millenium brought about by the preaching of the Gospel rather than the Lord's return to do all He told us to do.  The Lord's coming is the judgment of the living and the dead according to Daniel 12, John 5, 2Timothy 4, and a lot of other passages.  It ends history as we've known it.  The nations are made disciples BY US prior to His coming, so that there's not hardly 8 people that have to be executed after the millenium since the Church age ends, i.e., inclusive of the millenium, as an antitype of Noah's Flood.

But the millenium is a part of the Church age.  I lean towards that happening with the conversion of Israel, but when they behold Him whom they've pierced, it's in the exact same way that we behold Him whom we've pierced 'cause it was the sin of all of us that He became and annihilated in the pit of Hell during 3 days and 3 nights.  Then He was reborn per Acts 13, Hebrews 1, and other passages that refer to God having begotten Him in resurrection.  Isaiah 40:11 with regards to the animals, again something related to His High Priestly ministry, not Him literally being on this earth prior to the resurrection that leads into the New Heavens and New Earth where the elements are consumed with the Holy Spirit and fire.  His Kingdom rules over all, already!  And Church history is filled with miracles that have been happening for 2000 years. 

Because of Catholicism and other religious systems of men, then obviously it's in the hands of the so-called heretics, but it's been nonstop glossalalia and charisma for 2000 years as the Spirit of God has been increasingly poured out upon all flesh more and more.  It says in Psalms, Isaiah, and Daniel that His Kingdom's an ever-increasing Kingdom.  And I do believe all of the Scriptures, Tony 'cause I'm not a Universalist.  Lord Jesus preached to the dead in Hell, obviously after He'd been justified in the spirit rather than when He was baring the penalty for Adam's treason that the book of Hebrews reveals went all of the way to, but not inclusive of, the throne of God. 

Psalm 8 says man was given authority over the sun, moon, and stars, and the Blood of Jesus had to cleanse the heavenly utensils of worship.  That treason went all of the way to heaven.  Heaven wasn't fit for man to live in, hence they were incarcerated, good and bad alike, in Sheol.  But that was Old Testament.  You act as though there has been no change in the administrations and as though death still reigns thru Adam.  No, death has been abolished and life and immortality brought to light thru the Gospel.  The miracles have been ongoing, Tony N., for 2000 years and have never stopped.  I've even seen the dead raised in my own ministry, Tony N.: man, animal, and myself. 

And lest you misquote Romans 8 about man being cast into futility as though God did that in the beginning: that happened with the resurrection of Jesus Christ as Romans plainly declares because Lord Jesus didn't reveal Himself to the nations right then in person but subjected us to the preaching of the Gospel, the principles of sowing,  reaping, and priesthood after the Order of Melchezedec for manifesting the Kingdom.  There's futility in that until a person's mind is renewed to the New Covenant and they've put off the Old Man and have put on the New Man and have brought their every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.  Lord Jesus comes with His saints, according to 1Thessalonians 3:13. 

When Christ who is our life is revealed, we appear with Him in glory according to Colossians.  He's revealed thru the preaching of the Gospel.  1John 3 says that when we see Him, we're made like Him, and that whole book is about seeing Him in the Written, Preached, and Lived-Out Word.  Everytime we overcome thru diligent obedience to the Written Word in applying the redemptive passages and Christ lifestyle passages to our lives and circumstances, then the saints do reign with us and overcome with us because the hope of ages and generations is Christ within us, the expectation of glory.  Ephesians 1:23 calls us the fullness of Him that filleth all in all.  Lord Jesus comes in flaming fire upon the disobedient and is marveled at among the saints thru the preaching of the Gospel.  It's the Gospel preached that judges and transforms our lives according to 2Corinthians 10 and innumerable other passages.

And He did preach His conquest of death to the dead and they that were in their graves heard the voice of the Son of God and were raised from the dead with Him, according to Matthew's Gospel -- when He was raised from the dead, so were they and many of them appeared to many in the city.  John 5 says that the dead can hear.  So much for your misapplication of the know nothing passage from Ecclesiastes 9 that contextually is about Solomon repenting of all of his sins, including occultic practices that he couldn't be forthcoming about without being stoned.  The dead at that time knew nothing of what was going on in this world and therefore were of absolutely no help and no benefit to those alive on this earth.  It's an admonition in Ecclesiastes 9 against the occult.

However, in Ephesians since we're raised up to sit together with Him in heavenly places, it plainly tells us in Hebrews that we're surrounded with a great cloud of witnesses and as we preach the Gospel, Lord Jesus was coming with the clouds of heaven and those that pierced Him saw the Son of God, in the preaching of the Gospel, and lived.  Romans 5:17, Revelation 1:5-6, and innumerable other passages say that we reign here.  Obviously there's a process of the renewal of the mind that St. Paul is constantly talking about, which is absolutely totally pointless upon your views of no conscious existence in the afterlife 'til the resurrection and there being no miraculous powers of the age to come that we're partakers of now as we participate in the divine nature thru the exceeding great and precious promises of His grace and peace and add to our faith all of the principles and virtues of 2Peter 1 so that we ESCAPE the corruption that's in this world thru lust.  That's by sanctification and glorification in this life over all of the roars of the devil that's seeking whom he may devour.  Whom we're to resist steadfast in the faith with all of the full armor of God that's put upon us as we pray always with all prayer and supplication in other tongues, giving thanks to God the Father thru Him.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #348 on: October 09, 2009, 06:22:58 AM »
It appears throughout the Scriptures that the soul and spirit of man are interchangeable, yet separate.

Son of man/Son of God?

The mind, will, emotions (soul?) and the essence, core, or heart (spirit?) of man are fastened together; but separable.
Therefore, put no confidence in the flesh, for the spirit is living and active:

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him, must worship in spirit and truth."

The principles of human life; feeling, thought, and action including the physical or material elements (the body) will
die
, but not the Spirit/SPIRIT which are ONE.


So where does that leave us?
If we have no feeling, thought or action...?
What is the point?

Wait, let me back up. Are you saying die... as in forever?
Or temporarily during some "soul sleep"?


Sparrow, the essence of who you are will not die, just the foolishness of this world.
There will be no more death; mourning, crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away!


Ok, I think we're on the same page then.
(I thought you were saying that ALL feeling, thought and action will be no more...
as in we will no longer have thoughts, no longer have feelings, and will do NOTHING.)
I know people who believe that.

Basically, what I see is that love endures.
That which is not love within us, is what dies.

"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #349 on: October 09, 2009, 07:13:19 AM »
This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul....

 :cloud9: For the life of me, I just don't understand why the immortality of the soul is considered "pagan".

Does anybody agree that the soul is feminine, just as Eve was feminine, who is a type of the soul? And that He called THEIR name Adam, and Adam is a type of our spirit? And that He said that if THEY ate of the wrong tree, THEY would die, and THEY were cast out of the garden? And once she was cast out, did she die and Adam live alone?

So if both died, is only one raised? If Christ, our husband died and was raised, is His bride/wife/church, not raised? Of course not, or we have no hope. But that is essentially what this pattern of the soul not being immortal, that is being suggested, IS.

Both "die", both are raised up into Him in due season. The wife/soul may take a little longer if she did not completely obey the commandment in Genesis that her desire would be to her husband and he would rule over her, but God said that is NOT GOOD for "man" to be alone. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor