Author Topic: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?  (Read 42567 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11249
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #300 on: October 03, 2009, 08:06:08 PM »
Quote from: Doug
Being led by the Spirit of God is what identifies us as "sons of God."
   
Rom. 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Wouldn't that line up with this scripture?


Rev. 14:4-5
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #301 on: October 03, 2009, 08:18:55 PM »
Quote from: Doug
Being led by the Spirit of God is what identifies us as "sons of God."
   
Rom. 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Wouldn't that line up with this scripture?


Rev. 14:4-5
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.


Yes, we need to follow the Lamb, as He leads us to the truth!

John 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.


:thumbsup:

Doug

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8428
  • Gender: Female
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #302 on: October 03, 2009, 09:18:54 PM »
 :cloud9: There's 3 different words in the Greek that the translators called sons. They line up with babes/outer court, teens/inner court, and MATURE sons/Holy of Holies. Note that the mature ones were redeemed from among, ie. out of, men. That means that at one point they were in the first 2 categories, yet still called God's sons.

Out of Egypt (the flesh) I have called My son......this holds true whether they were called out of the flesh completely as returning to the Father of spirits via taking flight in the "winter", ie. death of the flesh, or whether He calls them forth out of the flesh that's died to self, ie. the resurrection while still in the body.

And the reason He calls them forth (the Seed) is so they can present their "wife" the soul, spotless and blameless, just as Christ presents His wife, the "church", spotless and blameless to the Father. This is why the Spirit is to rule over the soul, LOVING her, and so should a "man" love his "wife" as Christ loved the church. Macrocosm and microcosm, and the components of man are the microcosm.

Further, Christ IS the firstfruits, whether it be the one that came before, or the One that is coming forth out of the flesh of man, NOW. When He told them when He was in prison they came to visit Him, are we just going to assume He was talking about Christians being in prison and other Christians came to visit Him? He is the light of all men that come into the world, but the darkness (of men's minds) comprehended it not (until their season). Blessings....
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 11:57:25 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #303 on: October 04, 2009, 03:26:01 PM »
So, can we all agree that Christ did not actually preach to dead sinners while He was dead?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline claypot

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1227
  • Gender: Male
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #304 on: October 04, 2009, 03:59:54 PM »
Tony, your words got me a thinkin again. I hope thinkin with the mind of Christ and not the soulish mind but anyway, Christ died. Can you fathom that? Jesus Christ died. The Divine, God? Died? How can this be?

I have to think there is dying and there is dying. What we may think of death may not be what death is. How can Jesus the Christ actually die? Can you explain this to me? Yet the Good Book says Christ died doesn't it? Jesus Christ can't die in any way like I think of dying. This has got to be another spiritual activity.

Is death the absence of life? Is Jesus not Life itself?

My 'natural' eyes get in the way of understanding how the Christ can die. My 'spiritual' eyes are trying to 'see' something way different here.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11249
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #305 on: October 04, 2009, 05:08:11 PM »
So, can we all agree that Christ did not actually preach to dead sinners while He was dead?

LOL!

We do not agree.

I think we all agree one can be living and dead.

I'm not sure we all agree one can be dead and living.

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #306 on: October 05, 2009, 12:00:02 AM »
Jesus Christ is not "God" in the absolute sence. He is not the invisible spirit which fills heaven and earth. He carries the title "God" because His God (yes, Jesus has a God) gave Him that title in that he will subject all mankind to himself.

God, the absolute God Who fills heaven and earth cannot die.

God made Moses God and Aaron his prophet. Yet no one thinks that Moses was God absolute. And Moses is a type of Christ who was to come where John the baptist was his prophet.

Jesus died in the most absolute sense of the word. If He did not absolutely die then His sacrifice was not an absolute sacrifice. He had to rely completely on His God to raise Him from the dead.

Jesus was not off somewhere playing checkers while He was dead. He was dead, dead, dead. That is what the glorious gospel is all about, Christ dying and rising from the dead and overcoming death, not overcoming an incomplete death.

Tony

Tony, your words got me a thinkin again. I hope thinkin with the mind of Christ and not the soulish mind but anyway, Christ died. Can you fathom that? Jesus Christ died. The Divine, God? Died? How can this be?

I have to think there is dying and there is dying. What we may think of death may not be what death is. How can Jesus the Christ actually die? Can you explain this to me? Yet the Good Book says Christ died doesn't it? Jesus Christ can't die in any way like I think of dying. This has got to be another spiritual activity.

Is death the absence of life? Is Jesus not Life itself?

My 'natural' eyes get in the way of understanding how the Christ can die. My 'spiritual' eyes are trying to 'see' something way different here.

cp
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #307 on: October 05, 2009, 12:02:54 AM »
So, can we all agree that Christ did not actually preach to dead sinners while He was dead?

LOL!

We do not agree.

I think we all agree one can be living and dead.

I'm not sure we all agree one can be dead and living.

If one does not believe the dead are not really dead then one's biblical faith has been replaced by Platonism and the dark world of Christendumb mixed with paganism.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4070
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #308 on: October 05, 2009, 03:34:23 AM »
Yes clearly anyone who does not see it the way you do, since you possess the whole counsel of God, is a Platonist paganist heathen member of Christendumb, bravo!
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11249
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #309 on: October 05, 2009, 04:51:50 AM »
Quote from: Tony
If one does not believe the dead are not really dead then one's biblical faith has been replaced by Platonism and the dark world of Christendumb mixed with paganism.

It depends on what the definition of dead is lol. 

Jesus said Lazarus was asleep...

Paul says we have come to the congregation of the firstborn on mount Sion and to the spirits of just men made perfect....

Jesus says we will never die if we believe on him...

So I don't need the help of Plato to believe what I believe..

Personally, I wouldn't believe anything the OT tells me about death.  That was then and this is now...Something momentous has happened...


1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe, that Jesus was dead, and rose again, so God shall lead with him them that be dead by Jesus [so and God shall lead with him them that slept, or died, by Jesus].

Offline sparrow

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1830
  • I watch, & am as a sparrow alone upon the rooftop.
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #310 on: October 05, 2009, 05:19:23 AM »
nm. (nothing bad... I was just thinking out loud...maybe I'll post again later.)
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11249
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #311 on: October 05, 2009, 05:33:14 AM »
wow.  Great post, Sparrow.



11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

 12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

 13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

 14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

 15And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

--John 11


[that] "I may awake him out of sleep"


G1852
ἐξυπνίζω
exupnizō
ex-oop-nid'-zo
From G1853; to waken: - awake out of sleep.



17Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8990
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #312 on: October 05, 2009, 08:41:13 AM »
It is sheer Platonism to believe that humans, when they die, have some immortal soul and get to have another crack at salvation.


Hi Tony.  I see a lot of what you're saying. 

Given the above quote, what do you believe happens, what do you see as the process of every knee bowing and God becoming all in all? 

Thanks, James.

The process whereby all mankind will have God All in them is the process of vivification . . . being given immortality and putting on incorruption (1 Cor.15:22-28 etc.).

The process begins with Christ obediently going to the cross for all mankind and putting all mankind to death in the death of Christ. Then all mankind will be vivified (given life beyond the reach of death). "Yet each in his own order: The firstfruit (order) Christ then those who are Christ's (order) thereafter the consummation (order). The last order (the consummation order) will be vivified after Christ quits reigning and all sovereignties, authorities and powers annulled and death abolished.

Thanks Tony.  Let me see if I'm understanding then.  Many believe that many/most will get saved later, perhaps either when being placed in God's direct presence, or when "sufficiently processed in the Lake of Fire" - either way, that they will finally recognize and confess Jesus as Lord and Savior (every knee/every tongue..).  [perhaps including the spirits in prison/those disobedient in days of Noah/captivity captive, etc.]

Are you saying though that the only ones that will be saved by means of the Spirit drawing and them confessing Jesus for salvation, are the "firstfruits", those that are saved in this lifetime?  And then the rest at a process called vivification, when God (applies the blood ?) and pardons/redeems/restores them without (necessarily) belief on their part? 

I may have explained it poorly, but I'm trying to express what I THINK I'm understanding you say.  This would be the 'vivification' as translated in the CLV?  Not necessarily "another crack at salvation", but it being bestowed upon the rest strictly as a part of the process of God becoming All in All?  I've personally thought of vivification as synonymous with coming to belief and getting saved   :scratchhead:.

Correct all this if need be - I'm trying to understand.  I think most UR folks believe there will be ongoing moments of belief unto salvation through an ages or ages...I'm trying to clarify any possible distinctions. 

Thanks, James.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 09:02:24 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #313 on: October 05, 2009, 02:27:03 PM »
Yes clearly anyone who does not see it the way you do, since you possess the whole counsel of God, [everyone else] is a Platonist paganist heathen member of Christendumb, bravo!

You got it.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline claypot

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1227
  • Gender: Male
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #314 on: October 05, 2009, 04:10:57 PM »
Jesus Christ is not "God" in the absolute sence. He is not the invisible spirit which fills heaven and earth. He carries the title "God" because His God (yes, Jesus has a God) gave Him that title in that he will subject all mankind to himself.

God, the absolute God Who fills heaven and earth cannot die.


Jesus died in the most absolute sense of the word.

Tony

Tony, your words got me a thinkin again. I hope thinkin with the mind of Christ and not the soulish mind but anyway, Christ died. Can you fathom that? Jesus Christ died. The Divine, God? Died? How can this be?

I have to think there is dying and there is dying. What we may think of death may not be what death is. How can Jesus the Christ actually die? Can you explain this to me? Yet the Good Book says Christ died doesn't it? Jesus Christ can't die in any way like I think of dying. This has got to be another spiritual activity.

Is death the absence of life? Is Jesus not Life itself?

My 'natural' eyes get in the way of understanding how the Christ can die. My 'spiritual' eyes are trying to 'see' something way different here.

cp

Hey Tony, I am suggesting that 'the most absolute sense of the word' as you put it may still be eluding us. What does it really mean to die? What does it mean for Jesus Christ to die.

You are saying Jesus Christ is not God in the absolute sense and I am suggesting that the way you see death may not be what death is in the absolute sense.

What is the absolute meaning of death in your opinion?

Was Jesus filled with the fullness of God?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline reFORMer

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 1943
  • Gender: Male
  • Psalm 133
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #315 on: October 05, 2009, 09:37:01 PM »
The word "death" is used in at least 5 different ways in the N.T.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #316 on: October 06, 2009, 03:12:47 AM »
Jesus Christ is not "God" in the absolute sence. He is not the invisible spirit which fills heaven and earth. He carries the title "God" because His God (yes, Jesus has a God) gave Him that title in that he will subject all mankind to himself.

God, the absolute God Who fills heaven and earth cannot die.


Jesus died in the most absolute sense of the word.

Tony

Tony, your words got me a thinkin again. I hope thinkin with the mind of Christ and not the soulish mind but anyway, Christ died. Can you fathom that? Jesus Christ died. The Divine, God? Died? How can this be?

I have to think there is dying and there is dying. What we may think of death may not be what death is. How can Jesus the Christ actually die? Can you explain this to me? Yet the Good Book says Christ died doesn't it? Jesus Christ can't die in any way like I think of dying. This has got to be another spiritual activity.

Is death the absence of life? Is Jesus not Life itself?

My 'natural' eyes get in the way of understanding how the Christ can die. My 'spiritual' eyes are trying to 'see' something way different here.

cp

Hey Tony, I am suggesting that 'the most absolute sense of the word' as you put it may still be eluding us. What does it really mean to die? What does it mean for Jesus Christ to die.

You are saying Jesus Christ is not God in the absolute sense and I am suggesting that the way you see death may not be what death is in the absolute sense.

What is the absolute meaning of death in your opinion?

Was Jesus filled with the fullness of God?

cp


No, Jesus was not filled with the fulness of God. "for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell, Col 1:19

"for in Him the entire complement of the Deity is dwelling bodily." Col 2:9

A complement (pleroma) is not a fullness but a part. The woman is the complement of the man. She is not the whole man but a part what makes the man complete.

What is death? It is complete cessation of life. It is unconscious death.

If Christ did not fully die then mankind was not fully put to death and hence a new creation cannot come in Christ.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #317 on: October 06, 2009, 03:18:10 AM »
PAUL TO THE COLOSSIANS
Chapter 2
8 Beware that no one shall be despoiling you through philosophy and empty seduction, in accord with human tradition, in accord with the elements of the world, and not in accord with Christ,
9 for in Him the entire complement of the Deity is dwelling bodily.


For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11249
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #318 on: October 06, 2009, 03:42:23 AM »
[For in him dwelleth all the]


"fullness" [of the Godhead bodily]

G4138
πλήρωμα
plērōma
play'-ro-mah
From G4137; repletion or completion, that is, (subjectively) what fills (as contents, supplement, copiousness, multitude), or (objectively) what is filled (as container, performance, period): - which is put in to fill up, piece that filled up, fulfilling, full, fullness.



"repletion"

The condition of being fully supplied or completely filled.
A state of excessive fullness.



Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #319 on: October 06, 2009, 03:45:04 AM »
[For in him dwelleth all the]


"fullness" [of the Godhead bodily]

G4138
πλήρωμα
plērōma
play'-ro-mah
From G4137; repletion or completion, that is, (subjectively) what fills (as contents, supplement, copiousness, multitude), or (objectively) what is filled (as container, performance, period): - which is put in to fill up, piece that filled up, fulfilling, full, fullness.



"repletion"

The condition of being fully supplied or completely filled.
A state of excessive fullness.




Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11249
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #320 on: October 06, 2009, 03:49:32 AM »
LOL!  My posts are coming alive.

I knew this would happen sooner or later.

Thanks, Beloved Servant! :Sparkletooth:

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8428
  • Gender: Female
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #321 on: October 06, 2009, 03:50:58 AM »
 :cloud9: Roflol.......they've always been alive to me, Molly....... :thumbsup: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Taffy

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4167
  • Gender: Male
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #322 on: October 06, 2009, 03:53:26 AM »
 :icon_flower:

Lol  :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline sparrow

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1830
  • I watch, & am as a sparrow alone upon the rooftop.
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #323 on: October 06, 2009, 04:05:44 AM »
I posted this earlier, but pulled it right after I posted it.
Now I've added a bit more to it.
Still thinking.


"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his [Jesus'] resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Hmm. just thinking out loud here. Jesus died a real death. He overcame death and was resurrected. When he was ressurrected, He overcame death for all. The graves were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose. I do not think this was literal flesh and blood bodies crawling out of the ground, but spiritual bodies. "appeared unto many".... I see this as being in visions/dreams. This type of thing, I believe, happens still today, sometimes, when a loved one dies, the loved one will appear in a dream to a family member and they are ok, they are healed, they are not dead but alive! (in in a different realm, in a different dimension, "back home" in other words.)

Now, since Jesus' ressurrection, since death has been overcome...there is now no more "sleep", a person dies and they now (since the time of Jesus' ressurrection) do not lay in the earth "asleep" but now pass into life. REAL life. They go back home. Jesus' ressurrection was the dividing point. The event that took place in time which symbolized not only spiritual life (of those alive on earth) overcoming spiritual death, but actual literal death being overcome.

Lazarus raised. Was Jesus showing them what was to come, in more ways than one? Not only a foreshadowing of Christ's death and resurrection... but a promise, that death will be overcome?? Not just spiritual death of those alive, mind you... but physical death. Mary said she believed that Lazarus would be raised on the last day but that did not comfort her. But Jesus brought him back and was basically saying... NO, look... have faith. Lazarus is NOT dead. He was showing them not only compassion, not only the power of the Father, but a foreshadowing also of death being overcome. Lazarus raised pointed to Jesus... a foretaste of what Jesus was to also about to accomplish. The Father allowed Lazarus to come back as a foreshadowing of what Jesus was about to accomplish. Now, it doesn't mention Lazarus "dying" again, but obviously he did eventually die a physical death, but we now know that death is only an illusion to those left behind.


"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."


I believe perhaps "soul sleep" was before Jesus' ressurrection... and the passage from literal death to life is what is NOW the case for all AFTER Jesus' ressurrection. Because, look at it this way... before there was the LITERAL dead AND the SPIRITUAL dead before Jesus. Now... since Jesus came and walked on the earth, He has awoken the living who were spiritually dead and made them spiritually alive. After His ressurrection, it makes sense that now the "asleep" (dead, literally DEAD) now no longer "sleep".


hmmm. I don't know... Like I said I'm totally just thinking out loud. I'm not debating what anyone has said, just tossing some stuff around in my mind..

« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 04:10:16 AM by sparrow »
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #324 on: October 06, 2009, 04:19:31 AM »

What does it really mean to die? What does it mean for Jesus Christ to die.


The death of the passover lamb was a type of the death of Christ.

Exodus 12:5-11
5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD's passover.


The law of the passover said nothing was to be left of it. The remains were burnt in the fire, which suggests the death of Christ was also complete and total.

Doug