Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?

[Zeek]

but the wrath that reserved for the ungodly, who held the Truth in unrighteousness (via law).  

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Christ died for the ungodly; he justifies the ungodly. Right? Who is "not" ungodly/unrighteous? Aren't we all?

So then didn't Paul (or rather Saul) hold the truth in unrighteousness?

i don't believe so.

i don't believe david did either,

i don't believe Noah did either.


but I hear what u are saying, re: we are all at one time ungodly, but I don't believe it is the second death that moved these from sin/death to life; but rather the grace of God.  Some refuse the grace of God, and hold the truth in unrighteousness; reserving for themselves the wide road (shame/second death)

Prior to Saul's conversion, what made him different from any of the other Pharisees that Christ chastised and called "a generation of vipers" and "children of hell" (etc)?

What made Paul different is not the "before his conversion", but what He did with it after God was manifest in Him.  As per Romans 1,2, toward the end, after it describes that God hardened/turned them over to a reprobate mind; he describes who this was toward....>those who held the truth in unrighteousness, who then would store up wrath for themselves on the day of Wrath;

BUT

to those who do well; LIFE  (to me Paul was the BUT, or the especially;  He believed and was faithful to the end; so therefor never died.  His lot was not the "snares of brimstone and fire" (Psalm 11) as he was given "eternal" life.  So my point being; as I sais earlier; we are all ungodly, BUT if we choose, or he chooses us (depending on your stance of "free will") and believe upon HIM to the end; we are not to receive the "lot" of fire and brimstone.  Our God is a consuming fire, imo; is for those who have moved on to the mount of the LIVING GOD, and not the mount that BURNS with fire.  A perpetual shame is not the believers destiny. 


1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.

3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?

4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

 5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a]

7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality  (ie put on the new man), he will give eternal life.

8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

[Zeek]

3But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.

 
imo, this was Paul




4For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

 5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

 6Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.  

7But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.

 8Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face.



9For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.

 10Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.

 11But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.

 12For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.

10My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart.



11God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

 12If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready.

 13He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors.

 14Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood.

 15He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.

 16His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.

 17I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.


10And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that

4The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.


1In the LORD put I my trust: how say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain?

 2For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart.

 3If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

 4The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

 5The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

 6Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

 7For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.



Psalm 2-11

[Doug]

You are saying:

WHEAT = GOOD SEED = CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM = WORD OF THE KINGDOM

So then:

TARES = BAD SEED = CHILDREN OF THE WICKED ONE = WORD OF THE WICKED ONE

Meaning:

SEED = CHILDREN = WORDS/DOCTRINES/TEACHINGS


So then, the sewing and harvesting of the field (which is the world) has to do with the sewing and harvesting of doctrines?

Am I understanding you correctly?

No, because the "spirit" contained in the words of scripture is the life of God. In the parable of the sower Jesus said:

Matthew 13:8
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

What sort of harvest does this refer to? Jesus explained it like this:

Matthew 13:23
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Doug, you are the one who said that the wheat = the word of the kingdom.

Nowhere in the parable you quoted does it say that, explicitly.

That's not exactly what I wrote, is it? I said: The wheat represents the "word of the kingdom" in the parable of the sower. And what do you mean, it is not stated explicitly? In Luke's version, it is.

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

It seems clear to me that the seed in the parable represents the word, the gospel. Do you deny it?

So I took what the parable does say, explicitly, and I tried to connect it to what you are claiming it says (or claiming it means).

If I am not making the right connects, then maybe you can show me the ones that you are actually making, so I can see them and understand what you are saying and where those connections are coming from?

What is it about grains of wheat or barley, that resembles the words of Jesus? In the parable of the sower the various kinds of reactions of men to the gospel are illustrated. The important thing to notice is the results when the word falls on good ground; there is a very productive harvest.

In the parable of the sower, the harvest seems to be the "fruit" produced by the seeds that fell on the good ground. Some 30-fold, some 60-fold, some 100-fold. It is not referring to people having babies, or the number of their descendants!

How can the "word" of Christ generate life, unless it enters our minds? It is not going to do anything, if the words only remain on the printed pages of Bibles. But once the word enters our minds and hearts, and is understood, it can produce good works and changed lives. It is these that are "harvested." The words of God accomplish things in the earth, and bring forth the results God intended.

Every work we do for the kingdom of Christ is remembered. Even giving a cup of cold water to the least of Christ's disciples will be rewarded. [Mat. 10:42] All the hairs on your head are numbered, Jesus said. [Mat. 10:30] 

What do you believe "the harvest at the end of the world" is?

I think that basically it refers to the judgment. The judgment upon the house of God has begun already. [1 Pet. 4:17]

1 Corinthians 3:8-9
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

At the return of Christ there is a resurrection of the saints and prophets who have died, and all the saints receive the rewards coming to them.

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Then the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of Christ and his saints, which begins another period of judgment, when the world is "taught by God."

Isaiah 54:13
And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

Jeremiah 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Doug

[Chris]

Zeek, do believe that "the day of wrath" (as well as the day of judgment or the day of the Lord) is future?

[Chris]

Doug, you are the one who said that the wheat = the word of the kingdom.

Nowhere in the parable you quoted does it say that, explicitly.

That's not exactly what I wrote, is it? I said: The wheat represents the "word of the kingdom" in the parable of the sower.

So you saying that "the wheat represents the word of the kingdom" is not EQUAL TO me repeating back to you: "the wheat = the word of the kingdom"??

What is the difference? the word "represents" vs the "=" sign? 

And what do you mean, it is not stated explicitly? In Luke's version, it is.

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

It seems clear to me that the seed in the parable represents the word, the gospel. Do you deny it?

So you have an issue with "represents" vs "=" ? But it's OK to substitute "wheat" for "seed" when quoting "the seed is the word of God"? 

NO! I did not deny it and neither did you quote Luke's version of the parable to support your position, so it wasn't the version that we were discussing. But the version that we were discussing did say that "the good seed" are "the children of the kingdom". So please re-read what I wrote. That is the exact connection that I asked you if you were making.

Did I not ASK YOU if you were saying THE WHEAT = THE GOOD SEED?

and then build upon that to make the other connections that I made based on what the parable says "are" the children of the kingdom and the children of the wicked one, etc?

But you came back and said "no" I was misunderstanding something?  And now you are asking me if I am "denying it"??

So I took what the parable does say, explicitly, and I tried to connect it to what you are claiming it says (or claiming it means).

If I am not making the right connects, then maybe you can show me the ones that you are actually making, so I can see them and understand what you are saying and where those connections are coming from?

What is it about grains of wheat or barley, that resembles the words of Jesus? In the parable of the sower the various kinds of reactions of men to the gospel are illustrated. The important thing to notice is the results when the word falls on good ground; there is a very productive harvest.

In the parable of the sower, the harvest seems to be the "fruit" produced by the seeds that fell on the good ground. Some 30-fold, some 60-fold, some 100-fold. It is not referring to people having babies, or the number of their descendants!

How can the "word" of Christ generate life, unless it enters our minds? It is not going to do anything, if the words only remain on the printed pages of Bibles. But once the word enters our minds and hearts, and is understood, it can produce good works and changed lives. It is these that are "harvested." The words of God accomplish things in the earth, and bring forth the results God intended.

Every work we do for the kingdom of Christ is remembered. Even giving a cup of cold water to the least of Christ's disciples will be rewarded. [Mat. 10:42] All the hairs on your head are numbered, Jesus said. [Mat. 10:30] 

I didn't deny any of that either, but neither does it address the other passages that I asked you about (several times now) that you don't seem to want to address. 

What do you believe "the harvest at the end of the world" is?

I think that basically it refers to the judgment. The judgment upon the house of God has begun already. [1 Pet. 4:17]

1 Corinthians 3:8-9
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

At the return of Christ there is a resurrection of the saints and prophets who have died, and all the saints receive the rewards coming to them.

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Then the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of Christ and his saints, which begins another period of judgment, when the world is "taught by God."

Isaiah 54:13
And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

Jeremiah 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Doug

As I see it, we are all a part of the house of God (the body of Christ), so there is no one for whom judgment has not begun. And Christ comes "second time" unto them that look for Him.

The gospel message is about CHRIST IN YOU, not another outward/natural manifestation/revelation. (IMO)

The kingdom of God comes not with observation, but it within.

To me, it is all about Christ (who lightest every man that cometh into the world) being "formed" IN US. But in order for Him to increase, we must decrease. We must "die" so that HE can "live" (just as Paul said was the case with him).

THAT (to me) IS (knowing) THE POWER of HIS RESURRECTION (THE FIRST) - that we are to "have part in" and BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART in it. AMEN? 

If you would like to address the other passages that I have quoted several times about "the spirit", I would be interested in your reply, but I'm not interested in continuing this discussion of the same parable over and over when I already said that I did not disagree with everything that you were saying, that I see what you are saying as as "inward" application to "the world/field" that I see as "us" (ie "men"),  but that I also see it applying to an outward manifestation of that - wheat/tares - which is within. You don't see it applying to "men" at all in that way, but only to a harvesting of "the fruit" that they produce based on "the word" that has been sown within them (I think, but I wouldn't be surprised if I am still not understanding what you are actually trying to say ).

Chrissie

[Doug]

Perhaps the "bundles" are the packages of beliefs and doctrines that characterize all the sects, cults, and denominations. There are said to be 38,000 of them, according to Wikipedia. 

Doug

So if the tares = the children of the wicked one = the doctrines of satan

And if the wheat = the children of the kingdom = the word of the kingdom (the doctrines of Christ?)

Then God gathers "the words/doctrines of satan" into bundles to be burned, while he gathers "the words/doctrines of the kingdom" into the barn?

Am I saying that right, according to what you are saying?

No, I think you have missed something.

Doug

I guess I am. 

But, like i said, I only tried to tie those things explicitly mentioned/identified in the parable to your statment that the wheat = the word of the kingdom.

The parable says that "the good seed" = "the children of the kingdom". That has to be "the wheat" if "the tares are "the children of the wicked one".

You seem to be equating these "children" (wheat/tares) with "doctrines" (words/teachings/doctrines) rather than men. Is that not true? Isn't that what you are saying?

If that is true and it is these "children' (wheat/tares) that are being gathered/harvested out of the world/field, then how is incorrect to say that this must also mean that you are saying that it is "words/doctrines/teachings" that are being gathered/harvested?

It is the wheat/tares being harvested is it not? If they are not "men" but "doctrines" then what other conclusion is there? 

If that is not the right conclusion, then what do you believe IS being harvested in this parable?

Because I am obviously missing something. 

The "words" that are represented by the wheat or good seed in the parable of the tares are more than printed words on a page. Jesus said his words were spirit, and life. [John 6:63] So they are spriritual, and only revealed to us by God. [Mat. 16:17; Luke 10:21] Jesus said:

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So their fruit is spiritual too; it includes all the good works of the saints, and the spiritual treasure they accumulate in heaven during their lives. [Mat. 6:20; 19:21]

The "harvest" can include "words/doctrines/teachings" I suppose; for example, the epistles of Paul, and other books included in the New Testament; and people have written books and commentaries, some of which are excellent, others not so much. Even the translation and preservation of the Bible is an on going work, one of the "fruits" that the saints have labored for, over the centuries. Some gave their lives for it. There are other kinds of fruits, besides "words/doctrines/teachings," such as people acting on the teachings of Jesus and Paul, forgiving those who did them harm, for example. The works of the saints endure after they die:

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Their works are remembered and are rewarded at the resurrection which occurs at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. [Rev. 11:18] I think the "harvest" includes the "jewels" that the prophet Malachi spoke of.

Malachi 3:16-18
16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Doug

[martincisneros]

Tony N,

Somewhere the type has to stop.

Wow, liberalism and higher criticism out of a dispensational fundamentalist. Why? The Old Testament is the precepts and parables of the Kingdom.

He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your doctrines. Mark 7:9

So, you were never taught that absolutely every single moment of the New Testament -- absolutely each and every single word and each and every single incident is 100% in the Old Testament, described over and over again in a multitude of very cute ways.  You've never been taught a harmony of the whole New Testament with all of the Old Testament.

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand. Mark 13:23

But wisdom is justified by all her children." Luke 7:35 (According to the Old Testament, this is each and every syllable of the Old Testament.)

All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Luke 10:22 (Hint: It was done thru the Written Word.)

But rather give alms of such things as you have; then indeed all things are clean to you. Luke 11:41 (i.e. the whole Old Testament takes on more than just face value, but includes face value and every type, shadow, antitype, parable, principle)

Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. Luke 12:44 (i.e. that means the Written Word)

"And he said to him, 'Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. Luke 15:31 (Again, this is the Written Word)

And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' Luke 16:26 (Compare with the closing of Hebrews 11 that they without us cannot be made perfect.)

For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him." Luke 20:38 (Hint: If He's still the God of the Old Testament, then it must be living to Him.)

Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Luke 24:25 (Hint: Moses was a prophet, that's why every detail of the Law is Apocalyptic language.)

And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. Luke 24:27 (Does all mean all??)

Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." Luke 24:44 (Compared with Matthew 5:18, quoted above, and apparently absolutely all of it is about Him. Many other passages to specifically base this on besides this one comparison, but trying to be brief.)

The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. John 3:35 (i.e. every detail of the Old Testament.)

The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things." John 4:25 (Does all mean all?)

For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. John 5:20 (Again, does all mean all?)

For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. John 5:22-23 (Does all mean all?)

It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. John 6:45 (People learn from the Father as well??)

However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. John 16:13 (What has the Spirit of truth heard? Would this not include the Old Testament? Then why must the types cease, just because you don't understand the doctrine that each passage goes with??)

All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. John 16:15 (This includes the Old Testament, otherwise all things aren't His.)

Not a detail will fail to come to pass between now and beyond the all in all world.  Here's a classic explanation of Deuteronomy 23:12-13 at how even the going to the restroom law is a picture of the Cross:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCUby8b1zl4

Each and every single detail, even the choice of the lettering, of the Old Testament is that trippy with pregnant revelation of the Cross. 

Each and every single detail, even the choice of the lettering, of the Old Testament is that trippy with pregnant revelation of the Church. 

Each and every single detail, even the choice of the lettering, of the Old Testament is that trippy with pregnant revelation of marriage between a man and woman. 

Each and every single detail, even the choice of the lettering, of the Old Testament is that trippy with pregnant revelation of all of the operations of the gifts of the Spirit, the fruit of the recreated human spirit, and getting the hundredfold and beyond that Jesus taught by applying the Written Word to each and every circumstance of life until there's nothing left, [after it's all hit the fan/thrown at the fan;-) in one's priestly responsibilities with the Written Word,] but wholeness and prosperity in your life. 

Each and every single detail, even the choice of the lettering, of the Old Testament is that trippy with pregnant revelation of the discipleship of the nations.

And there's much more beyond that in each and every single detail, even the choice of the lettering, of the Old Testament....

Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things New Testament and Old Testament. Matthew 13:52 (Does every mean every??)

And yes, the New Testament is likewise filled with Bible Codes for each detail of one's life.  Time release revelations and manifestations if one's honestly continuing in it with all of their hearts.  Take a book of the Bible and read it aloud from start to finish a hundred times this week, then go back and do it again, then do it again, and then do it again 'til you know it better than the dude that wrote it, or it winds up seeming that way.  Don't base your life on verses or chapters.  Be determined to understand the whole thing the same way you understand the verse or two you think you understand the most.  That's when the Bible becomes your wisdom and not just where you find your doctrines.  If anyone around here is up to the challenge of always knowing everything He's saying and everything He's doing (Colossians 3:17; 1John 2:6; etc.), never again read anything else but your Bible, unless you're using the internet for basic communications with others, where IM, Skype, etc., require a tiny bit.  Read your Bible daily, and not just favorite verses and/or doctrines out of it.  Contrary to popular opinion, Concordances and Lexicons don't yield the strongest meat of the Word.  You've got to read it yourself, and not just skip reading it.

[Taffy]

Well Martin 

I very rarely opt to post after your contribution ,as for MINE, normally  have to DELVE through all that Intellect before I get to see where yer at..it Hurts ME head too Much as a Rule Bro

But having said That, Theres TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much to quote on your post above , but just like to say on those Points. -AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN....oh and AMEN
 

[jabcat]

Well Martin 

I very rarely opt to post after your contribution ,as for MINE, normally I have to DELVE through all that Intellect before I get to see where yer at..it Hurts ME head too Much as a Rule Bro

But having said That, Theres TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much to quote on your post above , but just like to say on those Points. -AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN....oh and AMEN
 

 

[sparrow]

Sometimes I wonder if we make it too difficult.

1 Corinthians 13 speaks to me louder than ever these days.

[jabcat]

Sometimes I wonder if we make it too difficult.

1 Corinthians 13 speaks to me louder than ever these days.

sparrow, I can make breathing too difficult. 

IMO, you can teach a lot of us about being loving  .

[martincisneros]

Well Martin 

I very rarely opt to post after your contribution ,as for MINE, normally  have to DELVE through all that Intellect before I get to see where yer at..it Hurts ME head too Much as a Rule Bro

But having said That, Theres TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much to quote on your post above , but just like to say on those Points. -AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN....oh and AMEN
 

When I first came into UR, I got a bit dumbfounded by some of the textual criticism stuff that I saw among some UR folks, and shrunk back from that belief/understanding of the Written Word 'cause at first it honestly looked like between 1% and 33% might be in doubt about how to translate it, or perhaps later additions, or was in the hands of the textual scholars 'cause of textual variants between ancient manuscripts to where "do we go with this variation in the ancient manuscript in question, or with this one over here, or with this one over here, or...??"  I did a few days of fasting this summer, and Isaiah 58 says that you do reach a point in a fast where if the finger pointing is out of your life and you're walking in love that you'll cry out and immediately He'll say "I'm right here." 

Anyway, after a few days, He asked me about all of the above on textual criticism that I'd had the chance to review this decade, and He asked me if any of that had ever done away with anything He'd ever taught me out of the Old Testament or had allowed others to teach me regarding the types, shadows, antitypes, parabolic nature, taking things literally where others have a tendency to dogmatically allegorize, and taking things figuratively that others have a tendency to dogmatize literally.  And I had to think about that one for a few days, and it hit me, that none of that had ever effected one thing that I'd ever been taught from the Old Testament 'cept for the ET, premillenial, and speciesism nonsense. 

In other words, my personal understanding was enriched by those clarifications, but I'd always been surrounded by the best teachers the Body of Christ has, and had virtually nothing to lay aside.  So, I layed aside my suspicions of the Old Testament that had developed after I came into UR and now wholeheartedly believe once again in God's Sovereignty in preparing and preserving the Bible (i.e. the whole Bible) to fulfill all of the purposes of the saints outlined in Psalm 149.  Without those few days of absolute judgment day clarity about everything, I'm not sure if I could have agreed with a statement like I just made, so I'm not expecting anyone will be persuaded, [that's not already persuaded,] of the absolute veracity, practicality, and use-ability of the Old Testament for New Testament believers that hasn't gone back over it passage by passage 'til He's illuminated it to them either directly or thru teachers they're not normally accustomed to hearing out.

[reFORMer]

I saw a young woman on a stage, which from a distance looked somewhat more impressive than close-up where the black paint was scuffed and dirty. She was confidently saying something to the effect that, "...using the Bible symbolically rather than literally is central to the great deception the Bible warned was coming upon people in these last days. By trying to use what should be directly understood to instead stand for allegories they will make it say anything they want." Hearing this was so indescribably frustrating to me; but, I was just a spirit, floating horizontal to the stage at about the level of her head. I reached for her jaw as she was speaking such adversarial words without understanding. Even as I thought I couldn't affect something in the material realm, being just a spirit, I discovered to my surprise I was not only moving her jaw, but affecting her own being at a spiritual level such that she was very shaken, staggering backward with her mouth hanging open. The word that was then spoken to me was: "I will have a people who have been taught of me." This gave me great comfort.

[Molly]

Matthew 4:16 (King James Version)

16The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

This is interesting.  Death is a region, a territory, a place where one sits[dwells] in its shadow.


"region" [...of death]

G5561
χώρα
chōra
kho'-rah
Feminine of a derivative of the base of G5490 through the idea of empty expanse; room, that is, a space of territory (more or less extensive; often including its inhabitants): - coast, county, fields, grounds, land, region. Compare G5117.



That's such a strange way to put it.  Like it is a place that you can go to or leave or live in or walk through.

Who would want to live there? [if there is a choice, that is]

[reFORMer]

Joian asked me whether that was a dream or a vision (about the woman on stage against understanding the symbology of Scripture) and if I was the one in spirit...I answered her with this:

It was a vision or dream...I think a vision in this case.  I don't always remember.  In this experience I was a spirit without a body and it was myself as spirit that grasped at her jaw.  We are mostly cut off from influencing others, at least in the present bureaucratic religious systems where The Church isn't on the program.  With no means of rebuttal to the floods vomited out under the rigidly mind controlled Christian media banner, it is often very frustrating to me to hear the many millions of people being told false things by the leaders they trust.  They don't represent the body of Christ, only the people who hog the microphone.  Years ago I was one of them without being aware of it.  God got me asking questions though.

A big thing with me early in my walk with the Lord was to have verses I could quote that said whatever it was I was saying.  If I was going to pass on some point of faith to others I had to have the chapter and verse as authority to back me up.  So, I started using concordances.  Amazing what by that method can NOT be discovered in the Bible.  For a long time I couldn't trust my NO evidence, thinking that many smarter, better and greater could see what I must have somehow missed.  Then, what IS written is often hidden, like the good seed sprouting up in the midst of many weeds.  I discovered that I can speak the truth of God; but, unless the weeds of what we were told by those who heard it from their teachers, unless these weeds of tradition are cut down, the word of God is made of no effect.  I think hardly anyone welcomes the sight of the scythe coming swiftly to cut down what they identify with as part of themselves.

I really despise those things that are spoken against the depth and riches of the wisdom of God.  There are so many levels of understanding on any given passage it boggles the mind.  Often it is in the guise of righteousness the devil comes to steal, kill and destroy.

This thing about a spirit functioning with soulical attributes without a body seems to be contested by some.  Paul saying he knew of one being "seized" into the Paradise to "see and hear" things not lawful to be utter was accompanied twice with the comment, "Whether with the body or without the body, I know not." (2 Co:12-24)  Paul here seems to think it was possible without the body.  Another interesting example is:  "...underneath the altar the souls of those who have been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had." (Rv 6:9-11)  Hard to believe the things in 1 Peter 3 and 4 are so controverted too.  "For into this gospel is to dead also, that they may be judged, indeed, accord humen flesh, yet should be accord God, spirit." (1 Pt 4:6)  Or, as AV has it:  "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."  Then, earlier, concerning Jesus as spirit apart from body:  "...being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison..." (1 Pt 3:18-19, AV)

[Molly]

...and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.


--Mat 4:16

[light] "is sprung up"

G393
ἀνατέλλω
anatellō
an-at-el'-lo
From G303 and the base of G5056; to (cause to) arise: - (a-, make to) rise, at the rising of, spring (up), be up.


Light doesn't normally 'spring up.'  A bubbling pool might spring up to the surface.  The light is coming from them...?

wow.  He's pulling the light out of them.


17From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

--Mat 4

[martincisneros]

Matthew 4:16 (King James Version)

16The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

This is interesting.  Death is a region, a territory, a place where one sits[dwells] in its shadow.

Precisely. You're not far from understanding the abolishment of death, now.  It's a territory rather than an ungraspable abstract ethereal thingamajig as inevitably overtaking as your next breath.  No, it's some things that can be overthrown, abolished, nullified.  The Anointing reigns in our life until Death's defeated, and the Anointing can be stirred up to that point with your faith per 2Timothy 1:6.  It's the same process for walking the Written Word out to victory over Death as it is with walking the Written Word out to victory over fear, disease, poverty, destruction of souls, et. al. 

Left Behind, ET, and other similar self defeating ideologies have prevented our hearing just tons and tons of testimonies regarding this.  If the times and seasons were said to be within the Son, then they'd be in the Written Word.  When it says it's in the Father, then that's when we've continued in the love Scriptures until our hearts and our love knows no death or subduing and subjugation to the iniquities of this world.  Loving by faith in the Written Promises until there's never another negative thought or impulse, but only the joy of the Lord as your reaction 'cause you're abiding in the Written Word until everything you say and everything you do is in the unveiled personality of the Son of God thru you DEFEATS DEATH.

...But, not on only a few minutes a day in the Written Word...You can't execute the written judgments that it says belongs to all of the saints in Psalm 149:9 and Psalm 112 on keeping that kind of a pace.  Death is working on you 24/7 and if you're only throwing a fifteen minute devotional of the Written Word against it everyday, then you're going to die in the wilderness inspite of the book of Hebrews and everything else in that New Testament telling you not to so that all that have died before can be made perfect with us; they're counting on us to make sure their lives have mattered and so that they can hear the voice of the Son of God again and live.  Colossians 3:12-17 is how you reveal His Voice.

[Cardinal]

  Good posts, guys........ amen, death is a territory......the flesh is the shadow of death that our spirit sits under. Can't remember now where it is but Judah springs up.........Judah/spirit of praise rises like the bubbling springs of living water that come out of our innermost beings. Ok, found it; it's been a long time since He gave me this. In Hebrews the Lord is said to spring up out of Judah.......ie. He comes thru our praise.

This is why He inhabits the praises of His people; yea though I walk thru the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil for the Lord is WITH ME (inhabiting our praise). The Spirit that came on the day of Pentecost was a Spirit of praise; it was said it spoke of the marvelous works of God among men. It is the Son giving glory to the Father. Blessings....

[sparrow]

I saw a young woman on a stage, which from a distance looked somewhat more impressive than close-up where the black paint was scuffed and dirty. She was confidently saying something to the effect that, "...using the Bible symbolically rather than literally is central to the great deception the Bible warned was coming upon people in these last days. By trying to use what should be directly understood to instead stand for allegories they will make it say anything they want." Hearing this was so indescribably frustrating to me; but, I was just a spirit, floating horizontal to the stage at about the level of her head. I reached for her jaw as she was speaking such adversarial words without understanding. Even as I thought I couldn't affect something in the material realm, being just a spirit, I discovered to my surprise I was not only moving her jaw, but affecting her own being at a spiritual level such that she was very shaken, staggering backward with her mouth hanging open. The word that was then spoken to me was: "I will have a people who have been taught of me." This gave me great comfort.

Was this a dream you had?

[sparrow]

Sometimes I wonder if we make it too difficult.

1 Corinthians 13 speaks to me louder than ever these days.

sparrow, I can make breathing too difficult. 

lol...you're not alone. 

IMO, you can teach a lot of us about being loving  .

aww.. thanks.
that was a nice thing to say.

[jabcat]

As Taf would say, "tis true".    

[Doug]

What do you believe "the harvest at the end of the world" is?

I think that basically it refers to the judgment. The judgment upon the house of God has begun already. [1 Pet. 4:17]

1 Corinthians 3:8-9
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

At the return of Christ there is a resurrection of the saints and prophets who have died, and all the saints receive the rewards coming to them.

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Then the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of Christ and his saints, which begins another period of judgment, when the world is "taught by God."

Isaiah 54:13
And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

Jeremiah 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Doug

As I see it, we are all a part of the house of God (the body of Christ), so there is no one for whom judgment has not begun. And Christ comes "second time" unto them that look for Him.

Matthew 13:47-48
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

As I understand this, the fish of the sea are the people of the world; the fish caught in the net are Christians of every sort. There is a sorting among those who are caught in the net. This is the judgment that Peter said is upon the house of God now. [1 Pet. 4:17] The good fish are the ones put in vessels. The rest are discarded.

Zechariah 13:7-9
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Jesus said he is the shepherd, John 10:11. The sheep are believers. In Zechariah's prophecy, two thirds of the flock are cut off and die. The remaining third are tried, and refined, like gold and silver.

Rev. 12:1-3
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:

Here in John's prophecy, the stars represent the saints. Together they are represented by the woman. A third of the stars are drawn by the tail of the dragon; they are deceived. The tail of the dragon represents false teachers. The earth represents the world. Those who are cast to the earth are the Christians who abandon their faith and return to the world. 

Paul said,

Phil. 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Those who "worship God in the spirit" are the circumcision, the true Israel. Only those who are of faith are included in the promises, and the "commonwealth of Israel." They are the ones described in Rev. 7:4-8, and Rev. 14:1-5.

Rev. 14:4-5
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Not being "defiled with women," I think, means they do not follow seducing spirits, but follow wherever Christ leads. And they don't seduce others. [2 Cor. 11:3]

2 Cor. 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

There is a wall around the holy city in Rev 21:12.

Rev 21:12
And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

What's the wall for?

Rev. 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

The holy city represents the saints of all ages; they are the ones who are in the first resurrection, who reign with Christ. [Rev. 20:6]

Doug

[Cardinal]

As I understand this, the fish of the sea are the people of the world; the fish caught in the net are Christians of every sort. There is a sorting among those who are caught in the net. This is the judgment that Peter said is upon the house of God now. [1 Pet. 4:17] The good fish are the ones put in vessels. The rest are discarded.

  God doesn't cast anybody away. Man is spirit, soul, and body. The spirit returns to the One who sent it. The body, if not glorified, returns to the dust. That only leaves one thing to be "cast away", and it's the soul of man, which is separated from Him for a season while the correction of sons comes forth.

There are mature sons and immature sons, but ALL are His sons after the spirit, because God is a Spirit and a seed can only reproduce it's own kind, and if the spirit of man goes back to the One who gave it........that makes it His seed.

The bondwoman and her son were cast out from Abraham and Sarah, but the Lord Himself spoke to them and they were reconciled.  My:2c: Blessings.....

[Molly]

Matthew 13:47-48
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

As I understand this, the fish of the sea are the people of the world; the fish caught in the net are Christians of every sort. There is a sorting among those who are caught in the net. This is the judgment that Peter said is upon the house of God now. [1 Pet. 4:17] The good fish are the ones put in vessels. The rest are discarded.

Yes. 

Matthew 4:19
And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.


And again,

Matthew 10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

[Doug]

The wheat represents the "word of the kingdom" in the parable of the sower.

Matthew 13:18-23
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

So if:

WHEAT = WORD OF THE KINGDOM

Jesus said his words were "spirit."

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So hidden in his words, there is a "spirit" that when it enters the heart of man, generates life.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that Christ said His words are "spirit" or that the "spirit" enters into a man's heart and generates life. But I am having trouble understanding how that answers my question?

It may be the "spirit" (whether you see that as "the word" or "the spirit of God" or both) that does the quickening, but what is BEING "quickened"? Is it not "the spirit" OF MAN ( that is quickened by "the spirit" OF GOD)?

You seem to be looking at it only one way but there is also a division that needs to take place between "the spirit" and "the flesh" of man, isn't there?

What do you think that "the spirit of man" is?

What did Paul mean when he said he turned a man over to satan for the destruction of his flesh "that his spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord"?

You keep going back to this parable and I can't see how it answers these questions. 

1 Cor. 2:11-14
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul says there is a spirit of man. It "knows" the things of a man, so in every person, there is something that is spiritual. Scripture says everything that exists is a creation of God. This spirit that is in man is part of God's creation. Zechariah said God "formeth the spirit of man within him."

Zech. 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

The author of Hebrews refers to God as "the Father of spirits." Every person is a creation of God.

Heb. 12:9
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

At death this spirit returns to God.

Eccl. 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Perhaps we can think of it as God's memory of that person.

Other scriptures on the spirit of man include Job 32:8; Prov. 16:2; 20:27.

Paul said this spirit of man can't understand the things of God, by itself. God has to open our minds, to enable us to understand the things of God. Otherwise they seem foolish to us, as they do to most men. There is a reason for this.

Rom. 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

[This also explains why Paul delivered the sinner in the Corinthian church to Satan.]

According to the Bible, every person is created to eventually become a "temple" of God, and to be conformed to the "image" of God, which was the plan from the beginning. [Gen. 1:26]

When we receive the gift of the Spirit of God, we become new creations of God, new "creatures."

2 Cor. 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This "new creation" by God in us is necessary for us to be "born" into the kingdom.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom. 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Being led by the Spirit of God is what identifies us as "sons of God."
   
Rom. 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

HTH, Doug