Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?

[Doug]

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Interesting post, Doug.

Jesus calls the devil 'your father' twice in the same sentence when speaking to the Pharisees.  So is he speaking metaphorically when he calls them, essentially, sons of satan?  You showed how the word 'conceived' is also used above, --why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart--again, a metaphor of conceiving a child?

If these are metaphors, they are extremely strong ones.  I can't imagine the Pharisees being at all pleased no matter what literary constructs they thought Jesus was using.

But, one thing seems for sure--he was calling them liars.  That means, they were not just misguided, not just blind, they were deliberately lying to the people for their own benefit.

Lying about what?  The god they served?

The context shows they had no love for Christ.

John 8:39-42
 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

They were resisting the truth.

John 8:48-49
 48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
 49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

These Pharisees did not have a good attitude. Truth is precious.

Doug

[Molly]

The context shows they had no love for Christ.
They were resisting the truth.
These Pharisees did not have a good attitude. Truth is precious.

Yes, for sure, at the very least. 


If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

You will know them by their fruits.  Their fruits are of Satan, not Abraham?  So, again,  they are the sons of the Devil, not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father.

If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God;


Again, he is telling them-- God is not your Father.

All of this is constructed within the context of family--fathers, sons, marriage, conception, giving birth to children--

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

--Mat 23


Satan has not an original thought in his body.  All he can do is mimic God.  God is creating a family, so Satan wants one, too.  And, if we listen to Jesus, it seems he has been successful at it.

[Chris]

The wheat represents the "word of the kingdom" in the parable of the sower.

Matthew 13:18-23
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

So if:

WHEAT = WORD OF THE KINGDOM

You are saying:

WHEAT = GOOD SEED = CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM = WORD OF THE KINGDOM

So then:

TARES = BAD SEED = CHILDREN OF THE WICKED ONE = WORD OF THE WICKED ONE

Meaning:

SEED = CHILDREN = WORDS/DOCTRINES/TEACHINGS


So then, the sewing and harvesting of the field (which is the world) has to do with the sewing and harvesting of doctrines?

Am I understanding you correctly?

Perhaps the "bundles" are the packages of beliefs and doctrines that characterize all the sects, cults, and denominations. There are said to be 38,000 of them, according to Wikipedia. 

Doug

So if the tares = the children of the wicked one = the doctrines of satan

And if the wheat = the children of the kingdom = the word of the kingdom (the doctrines of Christ?)

Then God gathers "the words/doctrines of satan" into bundles to be burned, while he gathers "the words/doctrines of the kingdom" into the barn?

Am I saying that right, according to what you are saying?

[Chris]

But, this body will still get old, die, decay, because it is still corruptible.  That's just a fact, isn't it?  Thus, our bodies are still under bondage [to death], are they not?
 

Of course, but is this "death" the result of sin or mortality? Or do you see them the same - mortality being the result of sin?

According to the Bible, death entered the world because of Adam's sin.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

I agree on how (or through whom) death entered into the world; that was not what I was asking.

I was asking what "death" entered into the world as a result of sin?

In other words, is physical death (moratlity) a result of sin?

Or was Adam/man mortal to begin with?

But Paul makes it clear that adoption will include, as the complete and final act, the redemption of our bodies

It is the resurrected Christ he is preaching, after all--a man who died and was risen from the dead in a vivified body.

32And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

--Acts 17

Yes, but what does "the redemption of our bodies" mean? Why must it mean that our long since gone and rotted natural bodies are going to one day, somehow, be 'reconstituted' (if you will) and start popping out the physical graves that hold them?

Perhaps Paul was referring to the redemption of our glorified bodies which are reserved in heaven, as Peter said.

1 Peter 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

It has not happened yet, as Paul said it is future (shall be..)

Romans 8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Peter said the nature of our salvation is to be revealed "at the last time."

1 Peter 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Peter also said it is future (shall be..)

1 Peter 5:1
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

Doug

However, the kingdom of God/heaven is WITHIN.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 


And concerning this building of God, not made with hands, eternal in the heavens, Paul said:

2Cr 5:1-4  For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.   For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:  If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.  For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

We do NOT desire to be UN-clothed, but CLOTHED UPON, so that we are not found naked. And in so being CLOTHED (as it is THIS MORTAL who must "put on" IMMORTALITY) MORTALITY is swallowed up OF LIFE!

[Molly]

So if the tares = the children of the wicked one = the doctrines of satan

And if the wheat = the children of the kingdom = the word of the kingdom (the doctrines of Christ?)

Not speaking for Doug, here.  I think it is more than just a few ideas, doctrines, or whatever.  A belief system determines how we view life and other people.  You are what you eat, so to speak.

So, it's not just a matter of having a few wrong or right ideas about something.  It effects how the whole world behaves.

Jesus says, You make them more a child of hell than you are yourself--they are spawning 'children' who are people, not ideas.  Similarly, Paul calls himself a father of the believers.

You cannot serve two masters--because you will love one and hate the other.  The master the Pharisees are serving is not God.

Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


--Mat 6:24



"mammon"

G3126
μαμμωνᾶς
mammōnas
mam-mo-nas'
Of Chaldee origin (confidence, that is, figuratively wealth, personified); mammonas, that is, avarice (deified): - mammon.

[Molly]

However, the kingdom of God/heaven is WITHIN.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 


And concerning this building of God, not made with hands, eternal in the heavens, Paul said:

2Cr 5:1-4  For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.   For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:  If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.  For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

We do NOT desire to be UN-clothed, but CLOTHED UPON, so that we are not found naked. And in so being CLOTHED (as it is THIS MORTAL who must "put on" IMMORTALITY) MORTALITY is swallowed up OF LIFE!

Yes, it's interesting the way he puts it.  The kingdom is within me, but guess what carries/clothes it?  This corruptible naked body. 

Thus, even though my mortal soul has been made immortal, it is still clothed in a corruptible vessel.  Does that make sense to anyone?  I need a container for it that is as incorruptible--deathless--as it is, itself.

But, Paul says not to worry.  The body [the container] also will be redeemed, at which point, death will be swallowed up in victory.


1 Corinthians 15:57
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Chris]

Jesus said "the tares are the children of the wicked one." [Mat. 13:38] Does the devil have children?

Jesus said the devil is the "father" of lies. This would imply his "children" are lies.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And he's not the "the father" of LIARS?

(same verse)

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Is Christ talking to "the lies"?

When Ananias tried to deceive the church, Peter said it was of Satan. Sin was "conceived" in his heart.

Acts 5:3-4
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

James spoke of lust "conceiving" sin.

James 1:14-15
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

So "the children of the wicked" in the parable of the tares is a metaphor, and refers to lies.

Only after an inward application, but not as an outward manifestion. IMHO. (As I can see it both ways, but we are speaking of an outward manifestion when talking about "men".)

Sheila wrote on September 15, 2009, 01:19:30 PM Reply #8 in thread Re: Joel's locusts:

"Many do not know of what spirit you are of..calling down fire of condemnation and   wrath of God on those bound by a spirit of disbeleif was not and is not Christ's agenda. Rather, it is to bundle and remove for burning the very spirits of unbeleif [tares] that bind any of us. or to set us free into the Glorious freedom of the sons of God."

The quote identifies the tares with "spirits of unbelief."

Well as long as you and Sheila agree. 

I am not disagreeing on every level... I'm just saying that you are looking at it from only one direction (inwardly) and that is not (IMO) the only way to see it, as there is also an outward manifestation that applies to "the men" (world/field) into whom this "seed" (tares or wheat) is sewn.

So what about the fact that God is "the father of spirits" (Heb 12:9,23). And it is God's spirit that bears witness to "our spirit" that we are the children of God (Rom 8:16) and it is "the spirit" that is quickened (while the flesh profits nothing - John 6:63) and "the spirit" that is saved in the day of the Lord (1 Cor 5:5).

Now what happens to "the spirit" when we die?

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was {THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING}: and the spirit {IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT QUICKENETH} shall return unto God who gave it. 

False teachings can endure for many generations. Men cannot.

Not the men themselves, individually. But the same applies to all men, across every generation. Does it not?

So the "tares" that are bundled and burned are not humans. IMO.

Doug

Ok.   

[Zeek]

I've heard some commentary that the "kingdom of God is among you" rather than "within" you,

Jesus referring to himself and his disciples.  They were among the pharisees, yet they didn't recognize HIM.

also,

If immortality is the same as "kingdom of God" (not saying your saying this, but wondering), then how can one be "within" yet need to be put on

[Beloved Servant]

However, the kingdom of God/heaven is WITHIN.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 


And concerning this building of God, not made with hands, eternal in the heavens, Paul said:

2Cr 5:1-4  For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.   For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:  If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.  For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

We do NOT desire to be UN-clothed, but CLOTHED UPON, so that we are not found naked. And in so being CLOTHED (as it is THIS MORTAL who must "put on" IMMORTALITY) MORTALITY is swallowed up OF LIFE!

Yes, it's interesting the way he puts it.  The kingdom is within me, but guess what carries/clothes it?  This corruptible naked body. 

Thus, even though my mortal soul has been made immortal, it is still clothed in a corruptible vessel.  Does that make sense to anyone?  I need a container for it that is as incorruptible--deathless--as it is, itself.

But, Paul says not to worry.  The body [the container] also will be redeemed, at which point, death will be swallowed up in victory.


1 Corinthians 15:57
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I get it, Molly!

[Doug]

The wheat represents the "word of the kingdom" in the parable of the sower.

Matthew 13:18-23
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

So if:

WHEAT = WORD OF THE KINGDOM

Jesus said his words were "spirit."

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So hidden in his words, there is a "spirit" that when it enters the heart of man, generates life.

You are saying:

WHEAT = GOOD SEED = CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM = WORD OF THE KINGDOM

So then:

TARES = BAD SEED = CHILDREN OF THE WICKED ONE = WORD OF THE WICKED ONE

Meaning:

SEED = CHILDREN = WORDS/DOCTRINES/TEACHINGS


So then, the sewing and harvesting of the field (which is the world) has to do with the sewing and harvesting of doctrines?

Am I understanding you correctly?

No, because the "spirit" contained in the words of scripture is the life of God. In the parable of the sower Jesus said:

Matthew 13:8
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

What sort of harvest does this refer to? Jesus explained it like this:

Matthew 13:23
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Perhaps the "bundles" are the packages of beliefs and doctrines that characterize all the sects, cults, and denominations. There are said to be 38,000 of them, according to Wikipedia. 

Doug

So if the tares = the children of the wicked one = the doctrines of satan

And if the wheat = the children of the kingdom = the word of the kingdom (the doctrines of Christ?)

Then God gathers "the words/doctrines of satan" into bundles to be burned, while he gathers "the words/doctrines of the kingdom" into the barn?

Am I saying that right, according to what you are saying?

No, I think you have missed something.

Doug

[Molly]

No, because the "spirit" contained in the words of scripture is the life of God. In the parable of the sower Jesus said:

Matthew 13:8
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

So the ground is as important as the seed [as any good farmer knows].

So what about the ground?


Hosea 10:13
Ye have plowed wickedness, ye have reaped iniquity; ye have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way, in the multitude of thy mighty men.

[Cardinal]

  This is what the Lord opened my eyes to 23 years ago, that destroyed the rapture doctrine for me before it could take hold.......sorry, this is going to be long.

Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. 36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Notice that JESUS sent the multitude away. Having problems with friends and family receiving from you? Maybe Jesus sent them away for a season, to process them thru some more "lake of fire" experiences to make them more desperate for some water on their tongue (Word of living water).

The multitude are generally more concerned with getting their immediate carnal needs met, ie. fishes and loaves, and at some point(s) we were ALL in the category of the multitude. In your walk did you ever get a prayer answered for a pressing problem and as soon as you got it, suddenly you were not pressing in as much as before? Time for some more lake of fire processing.


37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;  38 The field is the world;

He's telling us right here that the good Seed is Him, and that WE, our bodies, are the EARTHEN field, the WORLD, that He is planted in.


the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;  39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;

Notice here that the offspring of the devil have also been planted in this earthen field of ours, which is also called the world. They were planted while we slept, because Adam was put to sleep but you cannot find where He ever woke him up. This is because we were lowered into this bondage of corruption (this "world" that passes away) WITH THE TARES IN IT, for the purpose of giving us something to overcome thru Christ.

Eph 5:14 - Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Luke 6:45 - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Mt 15:18 - But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,  21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

And we know these things are the tares, because He said this:

Mt 5:28 - But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already IN HIS HEART.

The outward man DOES whatever the inward man (whichever one is allowed to manifest), IS.

Is it this "man" manifesting?

Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.  19 For OUT OF THE HEART proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Or this man?

1Pe 3:4 - But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.  

I always use an analogy of this; I've heard my kids use this on their friends to this day, LOL. There are two dogs fighting inside of you, a black dog and a white dog. Which one is going to win?

Everyone always answers the white dog, instinctively associating the white with good, and that's true. But the real answer is; WHICHEVER ONE YOU FEED THE MOST. Which is not to say, He's not going to win in the end, anyway. So just to be clear; by feeding, I mean taking in the Word. The work is ALL of Him.

the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.  40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;  42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Now we've established what the "WORLD" is He's talking about here, and it's us, the earthen field, and now we see that the end of the world is what? It is a cataclysmic anything out there? Or is it personal? The angels, which means messages or messengers, gather and burn in the fire of God, all the tares out of His kingdom. Where is the kingdom of God? IN YOU.

So the end of this world He is talking about started on the day of Pentecost when the fire of God fell upon the heads, and the Spirit of Truth that was within them already began to bring to their remembrance all things pertaining to righteousness and godliness and these messages gathered up all those things that were not like the image of Christ and cast them into the firey furnace of God's Spirit. And the end of your world, started on the day of Pentecost for you, as well.

It is interesting to note that in the Hebrew, end of the world also means ANKLE, which is, in a very real sense, the end of THIS WORLD we call our body.
  
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The tares, or darkness are literally covering the good Seed of Christ within us. Antichrist literally means AGAINST Christ, and not just in the sense of opposition, but lying along side of, or against, as in surrounding, or encompassing.

Psalms 22:12 - Many bulls have COMPASSED me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. 13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

It is not a coincidence that the Israelites made a golden calf to worship. These speak of the flesh and the strength of men, which in reality is the strength of the adversary of our souls. When He said we can do NOTHING without Him, He was not kidding. Satan is said to go around like a lion, seeing whom he might devour; which to devour something is to encompass it also, via consuming it.

Ps 118:10 - All (imagi-) nations compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD will I destroy them.

Jon 2:3 - For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

We know that Jonah being in the belly of the great fish for 3 days before being spit out, is as a type of Christ. The Seed of Christ is encompassed by the waters below the firmament in this type and shadow. Waters speak of spirit or spirits and these things are tares that are in the heart of every man, overshadowing the good Seed. Notice there are two elements encompassing Him: the flesh/earthen body of the "fish", and the waters/spirits.

This is why He said there would no sign be given except the sign of Jonah, because He has been in the center of our earth for 3 days (a day is like a 1000 years and we are in the dawning of the 3rd day expecting a resurrection), ENCOMPASSED by His enemies in us, but in the 3rd day, He shall arise.

Matthew 12:38 - Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth (THE WORLD/FIELD).

Ps 23:5 - Thou preparest a TABLE before me IN THE PRESENCE OF MINE ENEMIES: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Ex 24:12 -  And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee TABLES of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

2Co 3:3 - Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in TABLES of stone, but in fleshy TABLES OF THE HEART.

So where are the enemies again? I have more, but this is it for now. Blessings.....

[Beloved Servant]

Wonderful, CARD!


Joshua 6 (AMP)
5 When they make a long blast with the ram's horn and you hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the enclosure shall fall down in its place and the people shall go up over it, every man straight before him.

PAUL TO THE EPHESIANS (CLV)
13 Now all that which is being exposed, by the light is made manifest, for everything which is making manifest is light.
14 Wherefore He is saying, 'Rouse! O drowsy one, and rise from among the dead, and Christ shall dawn upon you!'

[Chris]

I've heard some commentary that the "kingdom of God is among you" rather than "within" you,

Jesus referring to himself and his disciples.  They were among the pharisees, yet they didn't recognize HIM.

also,

If immortality is the same as "kingdom of God" (not saying your saying this, but wondering), then how can one be "within" yet need to be put on

I think it's both. Not only is the kingdom within... we, as believers, make up that kingdom. Make sense?

[Chris]

The wheat represents the "word of the kingdom" in the parable of the sower.

Matthew 13:18-23
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

So if:

WHEAT = WORD OF THE KINGDOM

Jesus said his words were "spirit."

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So hidden in his words, there is a "spirit" that when it enters the heart of man, generates life.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that Christ said His words are "spirit" or that the "spirit" enters into a man's heart and generates life. But I am having trouble understanding how that answers my question?

It may be the "spirit" (whether you see that as "the word" or "the spirit of God" or both) that does the quickening, but what is BEING "quickened"? Is it not "the spirit" OF MAN ( that is quickened by "the spirit" OF GOD)?

You seem to be looking at it only one way but there is also a division that needs to take place between "the spirit" and "the flesh" of man, isn't there?

What do you think that "the spirit of man" is?

What did Paul mean when he said he turned a man over to satan for the destruction of his flesh "that his spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord"?

You keep going back to this parable and I can't see how it answers these questions. 

 

You are saying:

WHEAT = GOOD SEED = CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM = WORD OF THE KINGDOM

So then:

TARES = BAD SEED = CHILDREN OF THE WICKED ONE = WORD OF THE WICKED ONE

Meaning:

SEED = CHILDREN = WORDS/DOCTRINES/TEACHINGS


So then, the sewing and harvesting of the field (which is the world) has to do with the sewing and harvesting of doctrines?

Am I understanding you correctly?

No, because the "spirit" contained in the words of scripture is the life of God. In the parable of the sower Jesus said:

Matthew 13:8
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

What sort of harvest does this refer to? Jesus explained it like this:

Matthew 13:23
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Doug, you are the one who said that the wheat = the word of the kingdom.

Nowhere in the parable you quoted does it say that, explicitly.

So I took what the parable does say, explicitly, and I tried to connect it to what you are claiming it says (or claiming it means).

If I am not making the right connects, then maybe you can show me the ones that you are actually making, so I can see them and understand what you are saying and where those connections are coming from?


What do you believe "the harvest at the end of the world" is?

What do you believe is being gathered if the wheat and the tares are not men? What, then, are the angels sent to reap?


Christ equates the gathering of "the tares" with the gathering of "all things that offend, and them which do iniquity". 

Of the tares, he says: they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth".

Where else do we see a fire wherein there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? And who (or what?) is it that is cast into it?

Perhaps the "bundles" are the packages of beliefs and doctrines that characterize all the sects, cults, and denominations. There are said to be 38,000 of them, according to Wikipedia. 

Doug

So if the tares = the children of the wicked one = the doctrines of satan

And if the wheat = the children of the kingdom = the word of the kingdom (the doctrines of Christ?)

Then God gathers "the words/doctrines of satan" into bundles to be burned, while he gathers "the words/doctrines of the kingdom" into the barn?

Am I saying that right, according to what you are saying?

No, I think you have missed something.

Doug

I guess I am. 

But, like i said, I only tried to tie those things explicitly mentioned/identified in the parable to your statment that the wheat = the word of the kingdom.

The parable says that "the good seed" = "the children of the kingdom". That has to be "the wheat" if "the tares are "the children of the wicked one".

You seem to be equating these "children" (wheat/tares) with "doctrines" (words/teachings/doctrines) rather than men. Is that not true? Isn't that what you are saying?

If that is true and it is these "children' (wheat/tares) that are being gathered/harvested out of the world/field, then how is incorrect to say that this must also mean that you are saying that it is "words/doctrines/teachings" that are being gathered/harvested?

It is the wheat/tares being harvested is it not? If they are not "men" but "doctrines" then what other conclusion is there? 

If that is not the right conclusion, then what do you believe IS being harvested in this parable?

Because I am obviously missing something. 

[Chris]

Great post Cardinal! 

The earth/field/world = US!

AMEN!!!

And just as "the earth" = "us"

so does "the heavens" = "us" 

We (believers) are "the stars" in His right hand = "the angels" of the churches.

Talk about "bodies terrestial" and "bodies celestial" !!   

it is sewn A NATURAL/EARTHY body; it is raised A SPIRITUAL/HEAVENLY body. 

It is "the heavens" that praise Him and "the angels" that worship Him!! 

Everything that is "seen" reveals to us those that are "not seen"; those SPIRITUAL TRUTHS that cannot be seen with natural eyes! 

God is SO AMAZING!!!

[Cardinal]

  AMEN, yes He is.......and amen to your post! Blessings....

[Molly]

Everything that is "seen" reveals to us those that are "not seen"; those SPIRITUAL TRUTHS that cannot be seen with natural eyes!

Hebrews 11:3 (Wycliffe New Testament)
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were made by God's word [By faith we understand the worlds to be shaped, or made, by God's word], that visible things were made of invisible things.

   

[Taffy]

GREAT Thread Guys..
 
 


And again GOOD to see you posting once again Chrissy..oh ,and me flowers Need tending..LOL
x

[rosered]

 
   I am another who has been blessed by this thread and  contributers     Praise the Lord!!!   rose

[Chris]

Everything that is "seen" reveals to us those that are "not seen"; those SPIRITUAL TRUTHS that cannot be seen with natural eyes!

Hebrews 11:3 (Wycliffe New Testament)
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were made by God's word [By faith we understand the worlds to be shaped, or made, by God's word], that visible things were made of invisible things.

   

Amen Molly!

And we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen (2 Cor 4:18) which is why I tend to always lean more toward the more spiritual, rather than literal, interpretation of scripture . While there is a natural fulfillment of much, if not all, of scripture their true fulfillment (IMO) is that which takes place in the spiritual/unseen realm. 

[Chris]

AMEN, yes He is.......and amen to your post! Blessings....

It's truly the things "hidden" in types/figures/similitudes/etc that convince beyond any doubt of my heart or mind that the scriptures are the inspired word of God and not something that can be attributed to "men". 

[Chris]

GREAT Thread Guys..
 
 


And again GOOD to see you posting once again Chrissy..oh ,and me flowers Need tending..LOL
x

I'll try to borrow Steven's puter in a bit and run and take care of that for you again. 

[Chris]

but the wrath that reserved for the ungodly, who held the Truth in unrighteousness (via law).  

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Christ died for the ungodly; he justifies the ungodly. Right? Who is "not" ungodly/unrighteous? Aren't we all?

So then didn't Paul (or rather Saul) hold the truth in unrighteousness?

i don't believe so.

i don't believe david did either,

i don't believe Noah did either.


but I hear what u are saying, re: we are all at one time ungodly, but I don't believe it is the second death that moved these from sin/death to life; but rather the grace of God.  Some refuse the grace of God, and hold the truth in unrighteousness; reserving for themselves the wide road (shame/second death)

Prior to Saul's conversion, what made him different from any of the other Pharisees that Christ chastised and called "a generation of vipers" and "children of hell" (etc)?

[Cardinal]

AMEN, yes He is.......and amen to your post! Blessings....

It's truly the things "hidden" in types/figures/similitudes/etc that convince beyond any doubt of my heart or mind that the scriptures are the inspired word of God and not something that can be attributed to "men". 

  Me too, Christ, me too......I think they are the greatest faith builder and it blesses me so much to read them.  Blessings....