Author Topic: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?  (Read 40904 times)

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Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #200 on: September 30, 2009, 06:01:11 AM »


Yes, it is about he who "endures to the end" and Paul says that where unto we have already attained we are to "count it not" and continue to strive for the prize... but that is very different from saying that no one ever actually receives the end of their faith or the salvation of their souls this side of their natural death. Is that what you are saying?

This would mean that we all we can do is "endure to the end" of our natural life? For salvation waits for us only on the other side of it, but not on this side of it? 

No, I think it had nothing to do with "natural death".  

I believe it was covenental.  Old to new.  

I believe personally, that the first century time was a "working out" from "old to new" and

now/today is a "realization of what is already complete".  

  


But aren't you saying that none of these things 'are' complete? That it's only calling that which is not, as though it is?

What am I missing?  :mblush:

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #201 on: September 30, 2009, 06:02:44 AM »
:cloud9: Glad to see you posting with us, Chris........ :girlheart:

Thanks Cardinal! I'm about to have to call it a night, though. It's after 10 and I have to get up at 4.  :mshock:

Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #202 on: September 30, 2009, 06:05:50 AM »


Yes, it is about he who "endures to the end" and Paul says that where unto we have already attained we are to "count it not" and continue to strive for the prize... but that is very different from saying that no one ever actually receives the end of their faith or the salvation of their souls this side of their natural death. Is that what you are saying?

This would mean that we all we can do is "endure to the end" of our natural life? For salvation waits for us only on the other side of it, but not on this side of it? 

No, I think it had nothing to do with "natural death".  

I believe it was covenental.  Old to new.  

I believe personally, that the first century time was a "working out" from "old to new" and

now/today is a "realization of what is already complete".  

  


But aren't you saying that none of these things 'are' complete? That it's only calling that which is not, as though it is?

What am I missing?  :mblush:

Well, here is probably where i'll lose ya; but imo; all this is NOW complete; I truly believe that the "end came" upon that generation.  


And NOW; applying  this in a "spiritual" sense is fine; but as one can see; many "spirit filled" belivers with "the  mind of Christ", don't see things the same.  And I personally see a "burning of the tares" within me; and the "wheat being renewed day by day" as happening "in me", and this to me is a personal application I think is true for me; because of the "completed work already accomplished".

probably not explaining myself well, but wayI see it for now.


Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #203 on: September 30, 2009, 06:06:13 AM »


Yes, it is about he who "endures to the end" and Paul says that where unto we have already attained we are to "count it not" and continue to strive for the prize... but that is very different from saying that no one ever actually receives the end of their faith or the salvation of their souls this side of their natural death. Is that what you are saying?

This would mean that we all we can do is "endure to the end" of our natural life? For salvation waits for us only on the other side of it, but not on this side of it? 

No, I think it had nothing to do with "natural death".  

I believe it was covenental.  Old to new.  

I believe personally, that the first century time was a "working out" from "old to new" and

now/today is a "realization of what is already complete".  




Need to also ask... if it has nothing to do with natural death, then why such the tight connection to (even dependence upon) a post natural death resurrection?

Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #204 on: September 30, 2009, 06:06:44 AM »
:cloud9: Glad to see you posting with us, Chris........ :girlheart:

Thanks Cardinal! I'm about to have to call it a night, though. It's after 10 and I have to get up at 4.  :mshock:

Oh good.  I need to wind down too.

Blessings sister;  :HeartThrob:

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #205 on: September 30, 2009, 06:08:30 AM »
:cloud9: Glad to see you posting with us, Chris........ :girlheart:

Thanks Cardinal! I'm about to have to call it a night, though. It's after 10 and I have to get up at 4.  :mshock:

Oh good.  I need to wind down too.

Blessings sister;  :HeartThrob:

yeah, If I don't tear myself away, I'll end up talking til after midnight and get no sleep. So I better just stop reading for the night.  :grin:

Have a good night... catch ya on the flip side!!  :thumbsup:

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #206 on: September 30, 2009, 06:35:41 AM »
:cloud9: Glad to see you posting with us, Chris........ :girlheart:

Thanks Cardinal! I'm about to have to call it a night, though. It's after 10 and I have to get up at 4.  :mshock:

Oh good.  I need to wind down too.

Blessings sister;  :HeartThrob:

yeah, If I don't tear myself away, I'll end up talking til after midnight and get no sleep. So I better just stop reading for the night.  :grin:

Have a good night... catch ya on the flip side!!  :thumbsup:

  well it is 11:35 and have loved reading this thread!   :thumbsup:
 thanks to all who have contributed      hearing lots and learning lots and removing some ol cobwebs  in my mind lol    :HeartThrob:   rose

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #207 on: September 30, 2009, 07:11:32 AM »
Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


Here Paul is describing a partial resurrection--the firstfruits of the Spirit.  Thus the grain of wheat has fallen to the ground and died and grown into a new [spiritual] body which has produced its first fruit--the fruits of the Spirit.  It is Spirit [Christ] which will inherit the kingdom, not flesh.   All that means is if you see any earthly people running around claiming to be king, don't believe it.  They are still flesh.   But we see here Paul is still waiting for the complete redemption--which will include the body.

We will not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed at the molecular level--atomos--and this corruptible body will put on incorruption.

In other words, I wait to be 30 again, forever.  :happygrin:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #208 on: September 30, 2009, 07:37:53 AM »
 :cloud9: Works for me, but I think it'll be closer to 18  :laughing7:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sparrow

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #209 on: September 30, 2009, 08:27:06 AM »
I don't know, I always thought 11 was kinda cool.

 :laughing7:

you all are making me laugh.

 :HeartThrob:

love ya.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #210 on: September 30, 2009, 01:07:47 PM »
Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


Here Paul is describing a partial resurrection--the firstfruits of the Spirit.  Thus the grain of wheat has fallen to the ground and died and grown into a new [spiritual] body which has produced its first fruit--the fruits of the Spirit.  It is Spirit [Christ] which will inherit the kingdom, not flesh.   All that means is if you see any earthly people running around claiming to be king, don't believe it.  They are still flesh.   But we see here Paul is still waiting for the complete redemption--which will include the body.

We will not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed at the molecular level--atomos--and this corruptible body will put on incorruption.

In other words, I wait to be 30 again, forever.  :happygrin:

True, but Paul is talking about "we" who have "the first-fruits of the spirit". When are we sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise? And the promise of what?

For me, it still seems to be the matter of the difference between "children" and "sons". We are sealed by the holy spirit of promise when we first believe and "babes" in Christ are "yet carnal". Some may never "mature" or "go on unto perfection" (able to teach others, rather than be in need of one to teach them, etc), but are we saying that no one ever goes on unto perfection, receiving "the adoption of sons" (to wit "the redemption of the body")?

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #211 on: September 30, 2009, 01:10:11 PM »
29 was a good year!  :laughing7:

Doug

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #212 on: September 30, 2009, 04:47:03 PM »
Quote from: Chris on September 29, 2009, 09:26:38 PM
Quote from: Doug on September 29, 2009, 07:52:48 PM
Quote from: Chris
Who is it that Christ said would be harvested first? Was it not "the tares"? So then shouldn't "the tares" spoken of by Christ correlate in some way to "the dead" spoken of by Paul, who are gathered first?


No, I don't think there is a connection.

Doug


Weren't they both speaking about "the harvest" that is to take place at "the end of the world"? (If you don't think so, then why not?)

Christ says that "the tares" will be gathered first.

Paul says that "the dead in Christ" shall rise first.

Those two statements agree only if  "the dead in Christ" = "the tares"

And who are "the tares" (spiritually speaking) if not those who are "dead" in sin?


The tares of Christ's parable are not those who Paul referred to as "the dead in Christ."

In Romans Paul spoke of the old man being dead for a Christian, as pictured by baptism. It is a metaphor.

Romans 6:8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
   
Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


This is quite different to Christians who have died in the past being raised again at the last trumpet, when Christ returns.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


Quote from: Chris on September 29, 2009, 09:26:38 PM

But if we claim that "the dead in Christ" are believers who have preceded us in death and it is believers who are resurrected first (both the "dead" and the "living", after a natural application) then Paul's statement clearly contradicts Christ's statement.

So who is harvested/resurrected first? The tares, as Christ said? Or the saints, as many Christians claim that Paul said?

Or how are these two statements not connected?


Here is the interpretation Christ gave to the parable of the tares.

Matthew 13:36-43
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Notice that the things gathered out of his kingdom are "all things that offend, and them which do iniquity."

Below is an article about tares from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolium_temulentum

Lolium temulentum, typically known as darnel or cockle, is an annual plant that forms part of the Poaceae family and part of the Lolium genus. The plant stem can grow up to 1 meter tall, with inflorescence in the ears and purple grain. It grows plentifully in Syria and Israel.

It usually grows in the same production zones as wheat and is considered a weed. The similarity between these two plants is so extensive that in some regions cockle is referred to as "false wheat." It bears a close resemblance to wheat until the ear appears. The ears on the real wheat are so heavy that it makes the entire plant droop downward, but the "false wheat", whose ears are light, stands up straight. The wheat will also appear brown when ripe, whereas the darnel is black.
It parasitizes wheat fields. The French word for darnel is "ivraie" (from Latin "ebriacus"), which expresses that weed's characteristic of making one feel poisoned with drunkenness, and can cause death. This characteristic is also aluded to in the scientific name (Latin temulentus = drunk).

The traditional Anglo-Saxon surname "Darnell" comes from those who grew this weed for intoxicatory purposes.

It is also gives its name to another edible grain, aquatic cockle, known as "false rice."

The plant is mentioned in Horace's Satire 2.6 (eaten by the Country mouse while he serves his guest fancier foods) and in the Parable of the Tares in the Gospel of Matthew:

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.  - Matthew 13:30


This is instructive, IMO, especially the idea of tares being called "false wheat." Does this suggest the idea of "phony Christians" to anyone?

There have been "tares" among the "wheat" in every generation since the first century. The Reformers struggled against tares, which threatened to choke the knowledge of the scriptures.

An example of one of the "tares" that flourished for centuries, and that has been "harvested" and burned up, is the notion of a rigid heavenly firmament revolving around the earth each day, carrying the stars. This false belief, widely held for many centuries, and embraced by many of the early church fathers, has been entirely discredited, as foretold in the prophecy of Isaiah 34:4 about the heavens being rolled together as a scroll. The prophecy has come to pass, precisely. The supposed revolutions of the heavens ceased, during the scientific revolution, just like the spindles of a scroll cease rotating when they are rolled together. The rigid heaven of the ancient cosmology and all the planetary spheres have been forever abolished. This also fulfilled the prophecy of Peter, "the heavens shall pass away with great noise."

In the end of the age, "all things that offend" are to be removed from the kingdom by the angels of God. All the flawed interpretations of prophecy, and all delusions will be destroyed! If we defend any of those false opinions, we may get burned too. IMO.

Doug

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #213 on: September 30, 2009, 05:20:15 PM »
 
Quote from: Chris
...but are we saying that no one ever goes on unto perfection, receiving "the adoption of sons" (to wit "the redemption of the body")?

It's a good question.  There might be a few.  But I think it is the event that will usher in the next aeon, the manifestation of the sons of God.

--That means the revealing of the sons who might already be here. 


Isaiah 52:10
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.




the     salvation     of our God

'êth    y'shû‛âh        'ĕlôhîym

 

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #214 on: September 30, 2009, 05:24:35 PM »

The tares of Christ's parable are not those who Paul referred to as "the dead in Christ."

In Romans Paul spoke of the old man being dead for a Christian, as pictured by baptism. It is a metaphor.

Romans 6:8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
   
Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


This is quite different to Christians who have died in the past being raised again at the last trumpet, when Christ returns.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

That verse is not talking about Christians who have died in the past. Paul is talking about those "who remain" whether they be "alive" or "dead" (after a spiritual truth) and it is "the dead" who are raised first.

To say otherwise is to contradict the very words of Christ who said that in the time of harvest it would be "the tares" that are harvested first:

Mat 13:30   Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.   

Those who have already died (after a carnal truth) are already with the Lord! 

Quote from: Doug
Quote from: Chris

But if we claim that "the dead in Christ" are believers who have preceded us in death and it is believers who are resurrected first (both the "dead" and the "living", after a natural application) then Paul's statement clearly contradicts Christ's statement.

So who is harvested/resurrected first? The tares, as Christ said? Or the saints, as many Christians claim that Paul said?

Or how are these two statements not connected?


Here is the interpretation Christ gave to the parable of the tares.

Matthew 13:36-43
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I know who the tares are, Doug. I asked you if the tares are not, indeed, "dead" (after a spiritual truth)? And who it is that Christ said is harvested/gathered "first"?

Is it not "the tares" who are gathered first, according to Christ, and are the tares not "dead" (according to a spiritual, not a carnal, truth)?

Quote from: Doug

Notice that the things gathered out of his kingdom are "all things that offend, and them which do iniquity."

Amen! So are "the tares" (gathered first and gathered to be burned) not those who are "dead" after a spiritual truth? Those who walk in darkness? The children of the wicked one?

Quote from: Doug

Below is an article about tares from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolium_temulentum

Lolium temulentum, typically known as darnel or cockle, is an annual plant that forms part of the Poaceae family and part of the Lolium genus. The plant stem can grow up to 1 meter tall, with inflorescence in the ears and purple grain. It grows plentifully in Syria and Israel.

It usually grows in the same production zones as wheat and is considered a weed. The similarity between these two plants is so extensive that in some regions cockle is referred to as "false wheat." It bears a close resemblance to wheat until the ear appears. The ears on the real wheat are so heavy that it makes the entire plant droop downward, but the "false wheat", whose ears are light, stands up straight. The wheat will also appear brown when ripe, whereas the darnel is black.
It parasitizes wheat fields. The French word for darnel is "ivraie" (from Latin "ebriacus"), which expresses that weed's characteristic of making one feel poisoned with drunkenness, and can cause death. This characteristic is also aluded to in the scientific name (Latin temulentus = drunk).

The traditional Anglo-Saxon surname "Darnell" comes from those who grew this weed for intoxicatory purposes.

It is also gives its name to another edible grain, aquatic cockle, known as "false rice."

The plant is mentioned in Horace's Satire 2.6 (eaten by the Country mouse while he serves his guest fancier foods) and in the Parable of the Tares in the Gospel of Matthew:

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.  - Matthew 13:30


This is instructive, IMO, especially the idea of tares being called "false wheat." Does this suggest the idea of "phony Christians" to anyone?

There have been "tares" among the "wheat" in every generation since the first century. The Reformers struggled against tares, which threatened to choke the knowledge of the scriptures.

An example of one of the "tares" that flourished for centuries, and that has been "harvested" and burned up, is the notion of a rigid heavenly firmament revolving around the earth each day, carrying the stars. This false belief, widely held for many centuries, and embraced by many of the early church fathers, has been entirely discredited, as foretold in the prophecy of Isaiah 34:4 about the heavens being rolled together as a scroll. The prophecy has come to pass, precisely. The supposed revolutions of the heavens ceased, during the scientific revolution, just like the spindles of a scroll cease rotating when they are rolled together. The rigid heaven of the ancient cosmology and all the planetary spheres have been forever abolished. This also fulfilled the prophecy of Peter, "the heavens shall pass away with great noise."

In the end of the age, "all things that offend" are to be removed from the kingdom by the angels of God. All the flawed interpretations of prophecy, and all delusions will be destroyed! If we defend any of those false opinions, we may get burned too. IMO.

Doug


Good article!  :thumbsup:

We know that the tares need to be separated from the what (just as the goats are separated from the sheep). This article even quotes Mat 13:30.

Who did Christ say is harvested/raised/gathered FIRST?

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #215 on: September 30, 2009, 05:27:10 PM »
Quote from: Chris
...but are we saying that no one ever goes on unto perfection, receiving "the adoption of sons" (to wit "the redemption of the body")?

It's a good question.  There might be a few.  But I think it is the event that will usher in the next aeon, the manifestation of the sons of God.

--That means the revealing of the sons who might already be here. 


Isaiah 52:10
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.




the     salvation     of our God

'êth    y'shû‛âh        'ĕlôhîym

 


Are you saying that the adoption of sons doesn't take place in this life?

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #216 on: September 30, 2009, 05:41:19 PM »
  for some it sure does Chris , to me anyhoo!  :HeartThrob:
 
 sons of God holy  angels   /holy ones   THE WORD declares it ...
 
  rose

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #217 on: September 30, 2009, 05:41:53 PM »
Quote from: Chris
Are you saying that the adoption of sons doesn't take place in this life?

...waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


I think what Paul is talking about here has yet to take place.

That is, it has spiritually taken place [as Paul says--the downpayment] but now our bodies have to be redeemed.



[the] "adoption"

G5206
υἱοθεσία
uihothesia
hwee-oth-es-ee'-ah
From a presumed compound of G5207 and a derivative of G5087; the placing as a son, that is, adoption (figuratively Christian sonship in respect to God): - adoption (of children, of sons).


[the] "redemption"

G629
ἀπολύτρωσις
apolutrōsis
ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis
From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.


[of our] "body"

G4983
σῶμα
sōma
so'-mah
From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.




Zeek

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #218 on: September 30, 2009, 05:43:47 PM »

The tares of Christ's parable are not those who Paul referred to as "the dead in Christ."

In Romans Paul spoke of the old man being dead for a Christian, as pictured by baptism. It is a metaphor.

Romans 6:8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
   
Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


This is quite different to Christians who have died in the past being raised again at the last trumpet, when Christ returns.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

That verse is not talking about Christians who have died in the past. Paul is talking about those "who remain" whether they be "alive" or "dead" (after a spiritual truth) and it is "the dead" who are raised first.

To say otherwise is to contradict the very words of Christ who said that in the time of harvest it would be "the tares" that are harvested first:

Mat 13:30   Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.   

Those who have already died (after a carnal truth) are already with the Lord! 

Quote from: Doug
Quote from: Chris

But if we claim that "the dead in Christ" are believers who have preceded us in death and it is believers who are resurrected first (both the "dead" and the "living", after a natural application) then Paul's statement clearly contradicts Christ's statement.

So who is harvested/resurrected first? The tares, as Christ said? Or the saints, as many Christians claim that Paul said?

Or how are these two statements not connected?


Here is the interpretation Christ gave to the parable of the tares.

Matthew 13:36-43
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I know who the tares are, Doug. I asked you if the tares are not, indeed, "dead" (after a spiritual truth)? And who it is that Christ said is harvested/gathered "first"?

Is it not "the tares" who are gathered first, according to Christ, and are the tares not "dead" (according to a spiritual, not a carnal, truth)?

Quote from: Doug

Notice that the things gathered out of his kingdom are "all things that offend, and them which do iniquity."

Amen! So are "the tares" (gathered first and gathered to be burned) not those who are "dead" after a spiritual truth? Those who walk in darkness? The children of the wicked one?

Quote from: Doug

Below is an article about tares from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolium_temulentum

Lolium temulentum, typically known as darnel or cockle, is an annual plant that forms part of the Poaceae family and part of the Lolium genus. The plant stem can grow up to 1 meter tall, with inflorescence in the ears and purple grain. It grows plentifully in Syria and Israel.

It usually grows in the same production zones as wheat and is considered a weed. The similarity between these two plants is so extensive that in some regions cockle is referred to as "false wheat." It bears a close resemblance to wheat until the ear appears. The ears on the real wheat are so heavy that it makes the entire plant droop downward, but the "false wheat", whose ears are light, stands up straight. The wheat will also appear brown when ripe, whereas the darnel is black.
It parasitizes wheat fields. The French word for darnel is "ivraie" (from Latin "ebriacus"), which expresses that weed's characteristic of making one feel poisoned with drunkenness, and can cause death. This characteristic is also aluded to in the scientific name (Latin temulentus = drunk).

The traditional Anglo-Saxon surname "Darnell" comes from those who grew this weed for intoxicatory purposes.

It is also gives its name to another edible grain, aquatic cockle, known as "false rice."

The plant is mentioned in Horace's Satire 2.6 (eaten by the Country mouse while he serves his guest fancier foods) and in the Parable of the Tares in the Gospel of Matthew:

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.  - Matthew 13:30


This is instructive, IMO, especially the idea of tares being called "false wheat." Does this suggest the idea of "phony Christians" to anyone?

There have been "tares" among the "wheat" in every generation since the first century. The Reformers struggled against tares, which threatened to choke the knowledge of the scriptures.

An example of one of the "tares" that flourished for centuries, and that has been "harvested" and burned up, is the notion of a rigid heavenly firmament revolving around the earth each day, carrying the stars. This false belief, widely held for many centuries, and embraced by many of the early church fathers, has been entirely discredited, as foretold in the prophecy of Isaiah 34:4 about the heavens being rolled together as a scroll. The prophecy has come to pass, precisely. The supposed revolutions of the heavens ceased, during the scientific revolution, just like the spindles of a scroll cease rotating when they are rolled together. The rigid heaven of the ancient cosmology and all the planetary spheres have been forever abolished. This also fulfilled the prophecy of Peter, "the heavens shall pass away with great noise."

In the end of the age, "all things that offend" are to be removed from the kingdom by the angels of God. All the flawed interpretations of prophecy, and all delusions will be destroyed! If we defend any of those false opinions, we may get burned too. IMO.

Doug


Good article!  :thumbsup:

We know that the tares need to be separated from the what (just as the goats are separated from the sheep). This article even quotes Mat 13:30.

Who did Christ say is harvested/raised/gathered FIRST?


The tares are gathered first, and "burned". 

what is this burning?  Does it happen while they are physically alive?? 

or is it a post mortem "burning"??

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #219 on: September 30, 2009, 05:48:19 PM »
Quote from: Chris
Are you saying that the adoption of sons doesn't take place in this life?

...waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


I think what Paul is talking about here has yet to take place.

That is, it has spiritually taken place [as Paul says--the downpayment] but now our bodies have to be redeemed.



[the] "adoption"

G5206
υἱοθεσία
uihothesia
hwee-oth-es-ee'-ah
From a presumed compound of G5207 and a derivative of G5087; the placing as a son, that is, adoption (figuratively Christian sonship in respect to God): - adoption (of children, of sons).


[the] "redemption"

G629
ἀπολύτρωσις
apolutrōsis
ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis
From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.


[of our] "body"

G4983
σῶμα
sōma
so'-mah
From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.





So you see this as the physical body? So, in this case, you see it as first the spiritual - then the natural? or you see both as spiritual?


Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #220 on: September 30, 2009, 05:50:03 PM »


The tares are gathered first, and "burned". 

what is this burning?  Does it happen while they are physically alive?? 

or is it a post mortem "burning"??

I believe that the lake of fire is here/now.


Pro 11:31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner. 

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #221 on: September 30, 2009, 05:59:21 PM »
Quote from: Christ
So you see this as the physical body? So, in this case, you see it as first the spiritual - then the natural? or you see both as spiritual?

We start out as natural body, dead spirit.  Then our spirit is born of Spirit.  This is the earnest of our full redemption.



2 Corinthians 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.



"earnest"

G728
ἀῤῥαβών
arrhabōn
ar-hrab-ohn'
Of Hebrew origin [H6162]; a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest: - earnest.


Even as we are crossed over from death to life, it is still only the earnest, the downpayment.

The second man is made a quickening spirit.   What do you think will happen when that quickening spirit hits our physical bodies from the inside?  


"quickening" [spirit]

G2227
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.




Offline rosered

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #222 on: September 30, 2009, 06:08:39 PM »
9For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 10who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

 11Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.


 12But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction,
 13and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work.Live in peace with one another.

 14We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone.

 15See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people.

 16Rejoice always;

 17pray without ceasing;

 18in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

 19Do not quench the Spirit;

 20do not despise prophetic utterances.

 21But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

 22abstain from every form of evil.

23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 24Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.


 25Brethren, pray for us

 26Greet all the brethren with a holy kiss.

 27I adjure you by the Lord to have this letter read to all the brethren.

 28The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
  
 
   the Lord comes twice  ,  

  the second time is  those who are waiting on Him ,, the thief in the night
  we know that the night comes and no man can work  ,
  when the perfect comes   hebrews 9 28  the appearing of the 2nd time is apart from sin !!!  for salvation
   and described above in 1thes 5;23 its the 3 part , spirit /soul / body salvation / whole /perfect =complete
 
  

  do we recieve the promise though faith in Jesus Christ  works  or not ??
 
 :HeartThrob: rose  
  

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #223 on: September 30, 2009, 06:15:16 PM »
 

  PS Jesus  when he heals  them made them whole  forgiving the sins  and doing that  3 part work in them  soul /spirit / body
 and said sin  no more
  this is the ones whom he will return too  the second time to me ,  they wait  dead or alive  for the Lord
 dead to sin  and or alive to  God ...  :HeartThrob: rose
 

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #224 on: September 30, 2009, 06:19:04 PM »
Quote from: Rosered
when the perfect comes   hebrews 9 28  the appearing of the 2nd time is apart from sin !!!  for salvation

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

--1 Cor 15

Two conditions must be satisfied:

1)The mortal [soul] must put on immortality [I believe this was achieved at the cross]

2)The corruptible [body] must put on incorruption [I believe this will happen when he appears the second time without sin unto salvation--that is, complete redemption]


Then--death is swallowed up in victory.