Author Topic: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?  (Read 43538 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #125 on: September 27, 2009, 11:28:06 PM »
Quote from: Chris on: Today at 02:10:21 PM

The gospel has nothing to do with physical death or with physically dead corpses rotting in literal graves in need of a physical resurrection.


Hebrews 2:14-15
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.


The gospel has to do with delivering those who are in bondage because of "fear of death." I suggest it is real death that people are afraid of, the kind that results in physically dead corpses in physical graves. Otherwise, how would you explain the above scripture? Isaiah wrote:

Isaiah 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.


A couple of verses later we read about Christ:

Isaiah 9:6-7
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Isaiah spoke of the "land of the shadow of death." What is that about? Job explains:

Job 10:20-22
Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,
Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.


Job is talking about death here, I think. His mortality. The darkness of the grave. What else could it be?

So when Jesus fulfilled Isaiah's prophecy, as Matthew said he did, Jesus must have referred to literal death.

Matthew 4:12-17
12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Jesus brought the gospel, which is a great light that shines on those who are mortal, humans who are subject to literal death. That is primarily what the gospel is about! IMO. The remedy for death is....a resurrection!

Our hope is the inheritance we have in heaven:

1 Peter 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,


...that we shall possess at the resurrection.

Philippians 3:11
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.


Doug

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8428
  • Gender: Female
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #126 on: September 27, 2009, 11:33:32 PM »
Hebrews 2:14-15
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.


The gospel has to do with delivering those who are in bondage because of "fear of death." I suggest it is real death that people are afraid of, the kind that results in physically dead corpses in physical graves. Otherwise, how would you explain the above scripture?

 :cloud9: The fear of death that man is in bondage to all of his life, is the fear of DYING TO SELF. Which is why, no greater love has any man than this, that He lay down his life for his friends, and why perfect (ed) love casts out all fear. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline peacemaker

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1043
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #127 on: September 28, 2009, 01:15:14 AM »
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage - that is, the devil.

Chris

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #128 on: September 28, 2009, 01:52:37 AM »
Quote from: Chris on: Today at 02:10:21 PM

The gospel has nothing to do with physical death or with physically dead corpses rotting in literal graves in need of a physical resurrection.


Hebrews 2:14-15
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.


The gospel has to do with delivering those who are in bondage because of "fear of death." I suggest it is real death that people are afraid of, the kind that results in physically dead corpses in physical graves. Otherwise, how would you explain the above scripture?

Hello Doug,

Seems to me that verse equates being "a partaker of flesh and blood" with "death". If the devil has "the power of death" then what "death" are we speaking of here? That which results in physically dead and rotting corpses in physical graves?

Quote
Isaiah wrote:

Isaiah 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.


A couple of verses later we read about Christ:

Isaiah 9:6-7
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Isaiah spoke of the "land of the shadow of death." What is that about? Job explains:

Job 10:20-22
Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,
Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.


Job is talking about death here, I think. His mortality. The darkness of the grave. What else could it be?

How does that demonstrate the one is not a shadow/type of the other?

Quote
So when Jesus fulfilled Isaiah's prophecy, as Matthew said he did, Jesus must have referred to literal death.

Matthew 4:12-17
12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Jesus brought the gospel, which is a great light that shines on those who are mortal, humans who are subject to literal death. That is primarily what the gospel is about! IMO. The remedy for death is....a resurrection!

Of course it is. Now who are "the dead" that God is concerned with? Rotting corpses in physical graves? Or those who are "dead" in sin?

Quote
Our hope is the inheritance we have in heaven:

1 Peter 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,


...that we shall possess at the resurrection.

And that proves that this resurrection is "physical" how? Are we not already seated with Christ in heavenly places, after a spiritual truth?  Having "eternal life", if we know God and Jesus Christ whom he sent?

Quote
Philippians 3:11
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.


Doug

AMEN!! Now did Paul say that he HAD NOT ATTAINED unto the resurrection of the dead OR did he say that he COUNTED IT NOT and tells us (or "as many as be perfect") to walk by the same rule?

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #129 on: September 28, 2009, 03:01:44 AM »
Quote from: Chris Today at 06:52:37 PM
Quote from: Doug on Today at 04:28:06 PM
Quote from: Chris on: Today at 02:10:21 PM

The gospel has nothing to do with physical death or with physically dead corpses rotting in literal graves in need of a physical resurrection.


Hebrews 2:14-15
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

The gospel has to do with delivering those who are in bondage because of "fear of death." I suggest it is real death that people are afraid of, the kind that results in physically dead corpses in physical graves. Otherwise, how would you explain the above scripture?


Hello Doug,

Seems to me that verse equates being "a partaker of flesh and blood" with "death". If the devil has "the power of death" then what "death" are we speaking of here? That which results in physically dead and rotting corpses in physical graves?


Yes, IMO, the "death" that is referred to is the whole subject of death, and about man's mortality, the soul, and human destiny. The "vail spread over all nations" in the Isaiah quote below includes the delusions about the nature of death, and mistaken ideas about the afterlife, that hide the truth about God's plan for man's ultimate salvation.

Isaiah 25:7-8
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.


Quote from: Chris Today at 06:52:37 PM

How does that demonstrate the one is not a shadow/type of the other?


I agree that physical death is a type of spiritual death; I did not deny it. But how does that imply "the gospel has nothing to do with physical death"? How does it negate the promise of a resurrection of the body?

Acts 23:6 says that Paul "cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question." Why would he say he "hoped" for the resurrection of the dead, if he thought he had achieved it already?

Quote from: Chris Today at 06:52:37 PM
Quote from: Doug Today at 04:28:06 PM

Philippians 3:11
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.


AMEN!! Now did Paul say that he HAD NOT ATTAINED unto the resurrection of the dead OR did he say that he COUNTED IT NOT and tells us (or "as many as be perfect") to walk by the same rule?



In the next verse Paul says he did not consider himself as one who had "already attained."

Philip. 3:12-16 (Weymouth)
12 I do not say that I have already won the race or have already reached perfection. But I am pressing on, striving to lay hold of the prize for which also Christ has laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not imagine that I have yet laid hold of it. But this one thing I do--forgetting everything which is past and stretching forward to what lies in front of me,
14 with my eyes fixed on the goal I push on to secure the prize of God's heavenward call in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let all of us who are mature believers cherish these thoughts; and if in any respect you think differently, that also God will make clear to you.
16 But whatever be the point that we have already reached, let us persevere in the same course.


Doug



Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #130 on: September 28, 2009, 03:43:24 AM »
Because we present as mortal souls in danger of a speedy disappearance [temporal], the fear of death does put us into bondage to satan in all sorts of ways.  And, this applies not just to our own death, but to the death of our loved ones, as well.

It is important to note that just speaking up in a group, even running contrary to the group, illicits a fear of death which is atavistic and well grounded--ancient man could not survive without the approval and acceptance of the group.  So, many just go along to get along because of a fear of death--even when the group is dead wrong, which it usually is.

A woman in an abusive marriage will keep her head down and acquiesce to all sorts of things she doesn't approve of or agree with because of a reasonable fear of death.  She may also be afraid to leave because of a fear of death, real or imagined, which if not real will likely play itself out in a lower standard of life for herself and her children.

Satan uses this fear to literally keep us in bondage to whatever is preventing us from being free.  The drug addict thinks he will die without his heroin, so he does everything in his power to procure the drug that is killing him.  The middle class housewife thinks she will die without the support of her church, so she bites her tongue when the pastor and others go against what she knows to be true in her heart.

So it goes, the blind leading the blind, vipers and wolves pushing the sheep this way and that.  Sheep are very timid animals, and, rightly so, because they are vulnerable, and prey to all sorts of carnivores.  A good sheep dog doesn't have to do much to control them--just the threat of death given with the look of a wolf's eye is enough to get them moving in the desired direction.  Sheep.

But, what if we weren't afraid of death?  How much differently would we conduct our lives?  How much bolder would we be?  How much more confrontational when we see truth being compromised?  How much more often would we share our wisdom with everyone, whether they wanted to hear it or not?

Make no mistake, Christ knew he was courting death with the Pharisees.  That didn't stop him or affect his behavior in any way.  They killed him because he was in their faces telling them the truth--and was gaining a great following by doing so--because it turns out that everyone except satan really does love the truth.  Jesus says, if you are going to follow me, you have to be prepared to die, literally, because the world as it is controlled by satan hates truthtellers.  Anything else is a compromise--a state of being living dead.  We can't do this unless we are fearless.  And, we can't be fearless unless we have no fear of death.


Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.










Chris

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #131 on: September 28, 2009, 05:38:01 AM »

Yes, IMO, the "death" that is referred to is the whole subject of death, and about man's mortality, the soul, and human destiny. The "vail spread over all nations" in the Isaiah quote below includes the delusions about the nature of death, and mistaken ideas about the afterlife, that hide the truth about God's plan for man's ultimate salvation.
I'm not following. Where is the delusion?

Quote
Isaiah 25:7-8
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

And that cannot be accomplished without physical death? Or without 'soul sleep'?


Quote
I agree that physical death is a type of spiritual death; I did not deny it. But how does that imply "the gospel has nothing to do with physical death"? How does it negate the promise of a resurrection of the body?

Where do the scriptures speak of "the resurrection of the dead" as corpses popping out of the ground?

Are we not told that the body which is sewn is not that body which is reaped? That God GIVES it a body as it pleases him? And that it is not about being unclothed, but about being clothed upon with this building of God not made with hands?

Why does God need to resurrect our physical body after years/centuries of them rotting in dirt in order to "give" us a body? Why then are we told that it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened while the flesh profits nothing?

Quote
Acts 23:6 says that Paul "cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question." Why would he say he "hoped" for the resurrection of the dead, if he thought he had achieved it already?

Because the resurrection is not past. It is was, is and is to come. Some still sleep (after a spiritual truth).


Quote
In the next verse Paul says he did not consider himself as one who had "already attained."

Philip. 3:12-16 (Weymouth)
12 I do not say that I have already won the race or have already reached perfection. But I am pressing on, striving to lay hold of the prize for which also Christ has laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not imagine that I have yet laid hold of it. But this one thing I do--forgetting everything which is past and stretching forward to what lies in front of me,
14 with my eyes fixed on the goal I push on to secure the prize of God's heavenward call in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let all of us who are mature believers cherish these thoughts; and if in any respect you think differently, that also God will make clear to you.
16 But whatever be the point that we have already reached, let us persevere in the same course.


Doug

I read it very differently. Yes, Paul says that he is striving for the prize, as though he has not already attained unto the resurrection of the dead. But because, he says, he counts HIMSELF not to have attained unto it. But he goes on to say that "as many as BE PERFECT" should walk by the same rule.

Phi 3:8-16 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

We are to strive to know the power OF HIS resurrection. Amen? So why count it not, if we "know" it or have "attained" unto it?

As I see it, it is because we are to endure to the end. We are to take heed lest, thinking we stand, we fall. We are not to bear witness of ourselves and Paul was not one to bear witness of himself. It is God/Christ who must bear witness of those who are His. Is it not? Just as Christ bore witness of John the Baptist who, himself, said that he was NOT Elijah (even though Christ said he was).

Even Job knew better than to justify himself.

Job 9:20  If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

So while Paul did not bear witness of himself, he certainly did bear witness of others and instructed "as many as be perfect" to walk by "the same rule" that he did, pressing toward the mark, for the prize of the high calling of God, not as though you were already perfect or have already attained unto the resurrection of the dead, but counting it not and continuing to strive for it.

Not everyone who says "Lord Lord" does the Lord know, so how can we even think to bear witness of ourselves? How can we claim to have "attained" unto "the resurrection of the dead"? Our saying so or even believing so doesn't make it so. So we are to count it not and continue to strive for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ.

Again, that's just as I see it in relation to my own study of the scriptures and Jesus' words concerning "the dead" and "the resurrection of the dead". I do not believe that it is tied to physically dead/rotting corpses in literal graves.

Even when Martha said that she knew that her brother would be resurrected "at the last day", Jesus pointed out to her: "I AM the resurrection and the life". It is Christ who calls us out of the grave, releasing us from the bondage of death. The resurrection of Lazarus was a physical type of a spiritual reality. Just as the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ typifies the resurrection of "the body of Christ" (who we are).

I just don't see the day coming when corpses (that may or may not even still exist) are going to start popping out of dirt graves. That is not (as I see it) what "the resurrection of the dead" is all about.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #132 on: September 28, 2009, 05:59:58 AM »
Quote from: Chris
Where is the delusion?

The delusion is we are going to die, our loved ones are going to die, and that will be the end of the matter--which is probably what most people believe, Christians or not.  They hope otherwise, but do they really believe it?

Quote
I just don't see the day coming when corpses (that may or may not even still exist) are going to start popping out of dirt graves. That is not (as I see it) what "the resurrection of the dead" is all about.

That might well be so, but we will still have a body and it will be a human-like body.  We see Jesus in a resurrected body that can be touched and feels normal.  We also see him in the transfiguration becoming a body of light.  There is no reason not to believe that this is what our new [wineskins] bodies will be like.  This is the resurrection that Paul was still waiting for, to be like Him in all ways.

So, I'm not sure what you are saying--that we are resurrected first in spirit, then in soul, then in body?  And, that once the resurrection 'process' starts, it will continue until it is complete?  Or that there is no life after physical death?  I just can't tell exactly what you are saying...

Chris

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #133 on: September 28, 2009, 06:34:08 AM »
Quote from: Chris
Where is the delusion?

The delusion is we are going to die, our loved ones are going to die, and that will be the end of the matter--which is probably what most people believe, Christians or not.  They hope otherwise, but do they really believe it?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. How many people believe that they or their loved ones are never going to die? And since when do Christians not really believe in an afterlife? (if that is what you are saying?)

Quote from: Chris
I just don't see the day coming when corpses (that may or may not even still exist) are going to start popping out of dirt graves. That is not (as I see it) what "the resurrection of the dead" is all about.

That might well be so, but we will still have a body and it will be a human-like body.  We see Jesus in a resurrected body that can be touched and feels normal.  We also see him in the transfiguration becoming a body of light.  There is no reason not to believe that this is what our new [wineskins] bodies will be like.  This is the resurrection that Paul was still waiting for, to be like Him in all ways.

So because Christ appeared in a body of flesh and bones in order to prove His resurrection this "proves" that we will forever live in a physical world with a physical body of flesh and bones?

I'm not saying we will or we won't, just that I do not believe that the scriptures even address what life (or "the world") will be like in eternity with the Father - just that we will be "forever with the Lord".

Quote
So, I'm not sure what you are saying--that we are resurrected first in spirit, then in soul, then in body?  And, that once the resurrection 'process' starts, it will continue until it is complete?  Or that there is no life after physical death?  I just can't tell exactly what you are saying...

Well, I am certainly not saying that we cease to exist upon physical death. What Christian denomination teaches that there is no life after physical death?

What I am saying is that, according to scripture, it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened, while the flesh profits nothing. Paul said that he turned such as one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that HIS SPIRIT might be saved in the day of the Lord. He even tells us that if this earthly tabernacle (flesh and bones) were dissolved that we would see that WE HAVE an house of God, not made with hands (our heavenly/celestial body). We are told that we do not desire to be UN-clothed, but CLOTHED UPON; that it is THIS MORTAL that must PUT ON immortality.

I don't see that as talking about corpses, but living beings - mortals.

It's not about taking something off... it's about putting something on. And I don't believe that I need to die physically to be resurrected from the dead or to be clothed with my heavenly body. There is a dividing between the flesh and the spirit and the flesh profits nothing. And the reason that believers "never die" is not because they do not die physically, right? It is because they have already been resurrected from the dead (after a spiritual truth) and are children of the resurrection. They have already passed from death unto life (which has nothing to do with the fact that this body of flesh that we all live in will one day die).



Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #134 on: September 28, 2009, 07:08:46 AM »
Thanks, Chris--that made it much clearer what you are saying.

Offline peacemaker

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1043
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #135 on: September 28, 2009, 07:17:12 AM »
Death was not a personal drama but an ordeal for the whole community, however, we have lost something as a culture and have become less comfortable with the idea of death; fight or flight.

Perhaps, the fear of pain, of the unknown, of non-existence, and the psychology of Satan within Religions, including the fears of Eternal punishment have clouded the soul, as:

"Fear comes from the mind of men, not the Spirit."

peacemaker

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #136 on: September 28, 2009, 04:58:19 PM »
To me it just stands to reason that we will meet the Lord in the air in flesh and bones bodies.

Why do I think this?

God is going to go to all the trouble to open up all the graves of dead saints, bring forth their bodies to meet up with the living saints who are changed from soulish to spiritual and together they meet the Lord in the air.

Having "spiritual bodies" does not mean we will be spirits without bodies. Just as we are now said to be soulish does not mean we are souls without bodies. It just means that now, our bodies are ruled by soulish sensations and in the future our bodies will be ruled by power of the spirit.

"Not first the spiritual but the soulish, then the spiritual." (1 Cor.15:46).

Christ could not preach to dead saints when He was dead. The only time they get to meet the Lord is when the Lord returns.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #137 on: September 28, 2009, 05:14:03 PM »
Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009 10:38:01 PM

I'm not following. Where is the delusion?


Werner Jaeger wrote:

The Hebrew Bible does not know immortality ... [of the soul] at all, and the idea of resurrection in the New Testament is quite different. If nevertheless Plato's ideas of the soul and its destiny seem so familiar to us and have kept their direct appeal, that is because they have been adopted, with inevitable modifications, by the fathers of the church. If they dogmatized this part of Plato's philosophy of the soul, whereas in Plato himself everything remains in suspense, they have this in common with the Neoplatonists, who brought it all into the form of a theological system. The Christian fathers rejected the story of the transmigration of the soul, but they accepted the immortality of the individual soul, since they found it reconcilable with Paul's notion of the resurrection and with Jewish-Christian angelology, i.e., the existence of a world of immaterial beings. The most important fact in the history of Christian doctrine was that the father of Christian theology, Origen, was a Platonic philosopher at the school of Alexandria. He built into Christian doctrine the whole cosmic drama of the soul, which he took from Plato, and although later Christian fathers decided that he took over too much, that which they kept was still the essence of Plato's philosophy of the soul. It was for them as it was for Plato the significant expression of their basic spiritualism and immaterialism.

Werner Jaeger, The Greek Ideas of Immortality: The Ingersoll Lecture for 1958. The Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 52, No. 3. (Jul., 1959), pp. 135-147. [See p. 146]


Plato's doctrine of the immortality of the soul is a delusion, related to the doctrine of unending infernal torment, also a delusion. IMO.

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009 10:38:01 PM
Quote
Isaiah 25:7-8
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

And that cannot be accomplished without physical death? Or without 'soul sleep'?


Paul quotes the above verse from Isaiah in 1 Cor 15, and he indicates it can indeed be accomplished without dying, by a "change," that converts living mortal bodies of the saints to immortal ones, at the time when the saints who have previously died are also raised up, i.e. the "last trump."

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009 10:38:01 PM

Where do the scriptures speak of "the resurrection of the dead" as corpses popping out of the ground?

Are we not told that the body which is sewn is not that body which is reaped? That God GIVES it a body as it pleases him? And that it is not about being unclothed, but about being clothed upon with this building of God not made with hands?

Why does God need to resurrect our physical body after years/centuries of them rotting in dirt in order to "give" us a body? Why then are we told that it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened while the flesh profits nothing?


Look at the examples of people being raised from the dead in the Bible. They must be there for a reason! And look at the example of Christ himself. Job wrote:

Job 14
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.


This does not support the idea of an immortal soul, commonly held in Christendom. Job expected to wait "till my change come" which is similar to Paul's teaching in 1 Cor. 15. Plato's doctrine that man has an "immortal soul" is one of the ideas, introduced after the time of the apostles, that turned the sun to darkness, the sun being symbolic of the gospel, which fulfilled the prophecy of Joel, quoted by Peter in Acts 2:20. IMO.

Doug

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #138 on: September 28, 2009, 06:23:00 PM »
Quote
Plato's doctrine of the immortality of the soul is a delusion, related to the doctrine of unending infernal torment, also a delusion. IMO.

Hi Doug,

Biblically speaking, there is no reason why the soul should not be immortal, except for sin, and the wages of sin is death.  But, Jesus has paid that debt for all.  Even if a soul is asleep, as Jesus said Lazarus was, it is still not dead in the sense of not existing.  It is still existing but in a state of sleep/death.

Paul says our mortal [souls] must put on immortality--must put it on--it is necessary.  Mortal there means liable to die.  It would seem at first glance that the soul is pulled into the grave with the body.  But, he who gave his soul for us, raised it back up, pulling us up with him.

Do you think that the soul ceases to exist at physical death?

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #139 on: September 28, 2009, 07:37:52 PM »
Quote

Hi Doug,

Biblically speaking, there is no reason why the soul should not be immortal, except for sin, and the wages of sin is death.  But, Jesus has paid that debt for all.  Even if a soul is asleep, as Jesus said Lazarus was, it is still not dead in the sense of not existing.  It is still existing but in a state of sleep/death.

Paul says our mortal [souls] must put on immortality--must put it on--it is necessary.  Mortal there means liable to die.  It would seem at first glance that the soul is pulled into the grave with the body.  But, he who gave his soul for us, raised it back up, pulling us up with him.

Do you think that the soul ceases to exist at physical death?


The soul is what dies, as many scriptures indicate; I don't say it ceases to exist. Adam was made a "living soul," and he eventually died, as all do.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


David indicated the souls of the dead are in the "hand of the grave."

Psalm 89:48
What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.


He describes the dead as "cut off from thy hand." They are cut off while in the "hand of the grave."

Psalm 88:3-6
3 For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave.
4 I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength:
5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
6 Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps.


OTOH, Peter indicates our "soul" is what is to be "saved," as he spoke of "the salvation of your souls."

1 Peter 1:8-10
8 [Jesus Christ:] Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:


The prophets indicate that whatever our inheritance is to be, it will be something wonderful.

Isaiah 64:4
For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.


Paul thought so too.

Romans 8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


Hope this helps, Doug

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #140 on: September 28, 2009, 08:32:01 PM »
Quote
Plato's doctrine of the immortality of the soul is a delusion, related to the doctrine of unending infernal torment, also a delusion. IMO.

Hi Doug,

Biblically speaking, there is no reason why the soul should not be immortal, except for sin, and the wages of sin is death.  But, Jesus has paid that debt for all.  Even if a soul is asleep, as Jesus said Lazarus was, it is still not dead in the sense of not existing.  It is still existing but in a state of sleep/death.

Paul says our mortal [souls] must put on immortality--must put it on--it is necessary.  Mortal there means liable to die.  It would seem at first glance that the soul is pulled into the grave with the body.  But, he who gave his soul for us, raised it back up, pulling us up with him.

Do you think that the soul ceases to exist at physical death?

Molly, did Paul really say that about the soul? Or did you just make that up? You made it up, didn't you?  :laughing7:

The soul ceases to exist at physical death. Why? Because soul is just sensations. That is all it is. When you drain the blood from a human they loose all sensations to touch and smell etc. The bible says the soul is in the blood

Lev 17:11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter.

When you die the blood quits moving and so do the senses. The soul is not an "entity" or "being" unless used figuratively such as all the souls which were sailing with Paul which shipwrecked.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #141 on: September 28, 2009, 09:02:07 PM »
Quote from: Tony
Molly, did Paul really say that about the soul? Or did you just make that up? You made it up, didn't you? 

I didn't completely make it up lol.


It's the way I'm reading that scripture.


53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Referring to  the body--

[For this] "corruptible"

G5349
φθαρτός
phthartos
fthar-tos'
From G5351; decayed, that is, (by implication) perishable: - corruptible.

"must" [put on]

G1163
δεῖ
dei
die, deh-on'
Third person singular active present of G1210; also δεόν deon which is neuter active participle of the same; both used impersonally; it is (was, etc.) necessary (as binding): - behoved, be meet, must (needs), (be) need (-ful), ought, should.


"incorruption"

G861
ἀφθαρσία
aphtharsia
af-thar-see'-ah
From G862; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity.


Referring to the soul--

[and this] "mortal"
G2349
θνητός
thnētos
thnay-tos'
From G2348; liable to die: - mortal (-ity).


[must put on] (same as above)


"immortality"

G110
ἀθανασία
athanasia
ath-an-as-ee'-ah
From a compound of G1 (as a negative particle) and G2288; deathlessness: - immortality.



By the way, another question (out of the blue)--if one really thought someone else was going to live forever--wouldn't he treat them with great respect?  If for no other reason than you would like to be on good terms with them when you run into them again in the next aeon or two?  We don't treat each other like the immortals that we are, do we?  I think most people do not believe in immortality.






Offline rosered

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3070
  • Gender: Female
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #142 on: September 28, 2009, 09:05:35 PM »
 

  First off Great thread I am learning soooooooo much
  you guys are very clear in your concepts , that makes it easier for me to  "get it "   thanks for that !
   I just wanted to add in Rev 6 ,the souls that are under the altar/ Christ do cry out for vengance they were slain for the word of God and testimony of Jesus Christ Hebrews  11  , they died in faith ..
 So making them not dead  nor unable to speak  
 the Lord granted them white robes   and Chris  says further clothed upon  :thumbsup: and they recieved that "REST"  in Hebrews 4   the Lord grants  as His promises are sure .
 
in Rev 6 this is the victory over Death  Paul speaks of in Romans 7 and 8  to me  

  I am so not good at explining myself  :mblush:    I want to  say whats in my heart how   good God is and how the scriptures ALL FIT so perfectly
  but  I can get  you  Chris  so well  wow I am amazed  even Molly and Doug , and Tony , though I  know its the unseen that is   whats  the mystery of Jesus Christ and its the real deal , not what i can literally see with eyes  of human  exsistance .    but I can grasp this conversation   and see things  that were hidden  , but I can see , like the blind man lol I can see  Thank you Jesus !!!!

 
 
 love ya all to death/ the end...  hee hee  :winkgrin:   :HeartThrob:
rose
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 09:08:55 PM by rosered »

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #143 on: September 28, 2009, 09:52:11 PM »
Hi Rose, in Rev.6 the souls under the altar is a future event which has not happened yet.

Also it is highly figurative. When Cain slew Abel his voice of his blood cried from the ground. Well it didn't really since blood can't really talk.

Gen 4:10  And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Since the soul is in the blood, and since the souls cry under the altar, it is a figure. These Jewish believers are not really slain on the altar. But its as if they were a sacrifice to God.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline rosered

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3070
  • Gender: Female
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #144 on: September 28, 2009, 10:06:29 PM »
Hi Rose, in Rev.6 the souls under the altar is a future event which has not happened yet.

Also it is highly figurative. When Cain slew Abel his voice of his blood cried from the ground. Well it didn't really since blood can't really talk.

Gen 4:10  And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Since the soul is in the blood, and since the souls cry under the altar, it is a figure. These Jewish believers are not really slain on the altar. But its as if they were a sacrifice to God.


  Hi Tony
  thanks for the reply bro!   
I agree is all figurative in speech ! symbolic if you will
  I do believe revelations  is the "little book"    that was opened when Jesus  went to the Cross and  went to the Father , that was the power of God fulfiling all things in Christ Jesus it is Now even for me ..
 
 if you read that many of the graves were opened  at the cross , to me it means the  holy ones appeared !   their minds / hearts were opened to recieve  Christ and the good news of the gospel ! even the centurion  spoke of the glory of God and   knew this was His Son ,  could only be the living Holy Spirit  speaking thatTRUTH ! WOW!
 
  I see it this way , I am not sure how many others agree with me
  but thats ok if you dont , "Im down with that" lol ...  :thumbsup:
 
    :HeartThrob:  rose
 it is done here  finished !!
 Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.  :thumbsup:
 
 this is prophecy  here ..
 Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.
 
 Its an on going thing for all , especially those who believe !!  :winkgrin:

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #145 on: September 28, 2009, 10:51:00 PM »
rose, I wonder if the Pharisees had those who rose out of the graves murdered like they planned to do to Lazarus after He raised him from the dead?

Can you imagine seeing your once dead mother, father or relative walking around Jerusalem? I wonder if there were hundreds?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline rosered

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3070
  • Gender: Female
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #146 on: September 28, 2009, 11:11:18 PM »
rose, I wonder if the Pharisees had those who rose out of the graves murdered like they planned to do to Lazarus after He raised him from the dead?

Can you imagine seeing your once dead mother, father or relative walking around Jerusalem? I wonder if there were hundreds?
  I am ceratin there were so many you could not and cannot count  them  Tony
  I think  that was  the begining of the End ,  the End which is Christ
   the  main thing to me is this   the covenant with death is over in Christ , when He went to that Cross it  made the heavens open for all even now as we speak !  what a WORK GOD HAS DONE !!  :HeartThrob: :icon_flower: :cloud9: :gangel:     WOWZA!!! rose

Chris

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #147 on: September 29, 2009, 02:40:38 AM »
Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009 10:38:01 PM

I'm not following. Where is the delusion?


Werner Jaeger wrote:

The Hebrew Bible does not know immortality ... [of the soul] at all, and the idea of resurrection in the New Testament is quite different. If nevertheless Plato's ideas of the soul and its destiny seem so familiar to us and have kept their direct appeal, that is because they have been adopted, with inevitable modifications, by the fathers of the church. If they dogmatized this part of Plato's philosophy of the soul, whereas in Plato himself everything remains in suspense, they have this in common with the Neoplatonists, who brought it all into the form of a theological system. The Christian fathers rejected the story of the transmigration of the soul, but they accepted the immortality of the individual soul, since they found it reconcilable with Paul's notion of the resurrection and with Jewish-Christian angelology, i.e., the existence of a world of immaterial beings. The most important fact in the history of Christian doctrine was that the father of Christian theology, Origen, was a Platonic philosopher at the school of Alexandria. He built into Christian doctrine the whole cosmic drama of the soul, which he took from Plato, and although later Christian fathers decided that he took over too much, that which they kept was still the essence of Plato's philosophy of the soul. It was for them as it was for Plato the significant expression of their basic spiritualism and immaterialism.

Werner Jaeger, The Greek Ideas of Immortality: The Ingersoll Lecture for 1958. The Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 52, No. 3. (Jul., 1959), pp. 135-147. [See p. 146]


Plato's doctrine of the immortality of the soul is a delusion, related to the doctrine of unending infernal torment, also a delusion. IMO.

OK, but I never said that the the soul is, in and of itself, immortal. So I am not sure what connection you are trying to make concerning this "delusion" and what I said?

First of all, I do not believe that the "soul" is something that we, as humans, possess. I believe that we are "living souls"; though "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (and if one died for all, then were all dead). One can be "dead" while he lives, no? and the penalty for sin is "death".  I see this as a spiritual truth, not a carnal/natural one.

So then, the scriptures tell us that it is THIS MORTAL that must PUT ON immortality. Again, I see this as a spiritual truth, not a carnal/natural one. We do not put on immortality by dying a physical death and taking part in a physical resurrection. We pass from death into life as believers, when we partake of the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, who is our life and who ONLY has immortality.

Quote from: Doug
Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009 10:38:01 PM
Quote
Isaiah 25:7-8
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

And that cannot be accomplished without physical death? Or without 'soul sleep'?


Paul quotes the above verse from Isaiah in 1 Cor 15, and he indicates it can indeed be accomplished without dying, by a "change," that converts living mortal bodies of the saints to immortal ones, at the time when the saints who have previously died are also raised up, i.e. the "last trump."

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I disagree with your assessment of this passage, in that I don't believe that it speaks of physically dead corpses being resurrected back to life at all. As I understand it, "the dead in Christ" (those who "sleep") are among those who remain, those who are physically alive, yet dead in sin. The dead in Christ are not physically dead saints, but "the tares" who are, according to both Christ and Paul, harvested first. 

Quote from: Doug
Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009 10:38:01 PM

Where do the scriptures speak of "the resurrection of the dead" as corpses popping out of the ground?

Are we not told that the body which is sewn is not that body which is reaped? That God GIVES it a body as it pleases him? And that it is not about being unclothed, but about being clothed upon with this building of God not made with hands?

Why does God need to resurrect our physical body after years/centuries of them rotting in dirt in order to "give" us a body? Why then are we told that it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened while the flesh profits nothing?


Look at the examples of people being raised from the dead in the Bible. They must be there for a reason! And look at the example of Christ himself.

I agree. Does not the natural reveal the spiritual? Isn't that which "is" seen given to us to reveal to us that which is "not" seen?

Quote from: Doug
Job wrote:

Job 14
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Yes, I am familiar with the passage; just as I am familiar with:

Psa 49:15  But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

I used to use these verses myself to support my own belief in soul sleep.... to "prove" that it is "from the grave" (sheol/hades) that the soul is redeemed "at the resurrection in the last day".

But when I compare that to:

Psa 30:3  O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

I can see that this is not talking about physical death at all; though physical death and the physical grave are the natural figures or types of the spiritual reality of "the body of this death" that we are prisoners of, that we need redemption from.

When I read Martha's words to Jesus regarding the resurrection of the dead, I hear in her response to His question my own (former) belief in soul sleep and in a future (only) resurrection that has to do with either the resurrection of the body (according to some) or the resurrection of the soul (to be given a new spiritual body, according to others). But I do not hear agreement to either of those positions in the words of Christ in His response to Martha, when he said:

John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Do we believe? Do we even understand? That Jesus Christ ~IS~ the resurrection and the life?

We are not immortal; we do not possess immortality. But Christ does and HE IS that LIFE that is hid in us = Christ in you, the hope of glory. And it is THIS MORTAL that must PUT ON immortality. Again, it is not about being UN-clothed, but about being CLOTHED UPON.

If we have "put on" immorality, being clothed with Christ, then we HAVE eternal life and HAVE BEEN resurrected from the dead. We HAVE passed from death unto life.

And, as I see, we ALL have already been baptized into His death; though we do not all yet know the power of His resurrection/life. Though we have been raised with him, some are "fallen asleep", but those who "sleep" are being called to wake, to "rise from the dead":

Eph 5:14  ....Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Quote from: Doug
This does not support the idea of an immortal soul, commonly held in Christendom. Job expected to wait "till my change come" which is similar to Paul's teaching in 1 Cor. 15. Plato's doctrine that man has an "immortal soul" is one of the ideas, introduced after the time of the apostles, that turned the sun to darkness, the sun being symbolic of the gospel, which fulfilled the prophecy of Joel, quoted by Peter in Acts 2:20. IMO.

Doug
I respectfully disagree. While the idea of an "immortal soul" may be incorrect, as the soul does not possess immortality in and of itself. It is still THIS MORTAL (not corpses) that must "put on" immortality by being clothed with Christ, who only has immortality.

I no longer believe that the scriptures support the doctrine of soul sleep or the idea that it is "corpses" (or disembodied "souls", "sleeping" in sheol/hades) that are resurrected from the dead / to immortality.  I think that this idea comes from a misunderstanding of who "the dead" are and what/who "the resurrection of dead" is.


Doug

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #148 on: September 29, 2009, 03:06:48 AM »
Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009, 11:34:08 PM
Quote

So, I'm not sure what you are saying--that we are resurrected first in spirit, then in soul, then in body?  And, that once the resurrection 'process' starts, it will continue until it is complete?  Or that there is no life after physical death?  I just can't tell exactly what you are saying...


Well, I am certainly not saying that we cease to exist upon physical death. What Christian denomination teaches that there is no life after physical death?

What I am saying is that, according to scripture, it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened, while the flesh profits nothing.


The context, when Jesus said this, is worth noting. Jesus said:

John 6:56
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.


This puzzled the disciples:

John 6:60
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?


Then Jesus said:

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


The saying of Jesus was obviously a deep one, that requires interpretation, which is partly given in the last verse quoted. He was talking about spiritual things. "Eating his flesh" meant understanding his words. Some of them, we need to "chew" on a little.  :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009, 11:34:08 PM

Paul said that he turned such as one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that HIS SPIRIT might be saved in the day of the Lord. He even tells us that if this earthly tabernacle (flesh and bones) were dissolved that we would see that WE HAVE an house of God, not made with hands (our heavenly/celestial body). We are told that we do not desire to be UN-clothed, but CLOTHED UPON; that it is THIS MORTAL that must PUT ON immortality.

I don't see that as talking about corpses, but living beings - mortals.

It's not about taking something off... it's about putting something on. And I don't believe that I need to die physically to be resurrected from the dead or to be clothed with my heavenly body. There is a dividing between the flesh and the spirit and the flesh profits nothing. And the reason that believers "never die" is not because they do not die physically, right? It is because they have already been resurrected from the dead (after a spiritual truth) and are children of the resurrection. They have already passed from death unto life (which has nothing to do with the fact that this body of flesh that we all live in will one day die).


If it were true that all the saints who lived before, had received their rewards already, some would have lived for many centuries, presumably in heaven, and in all that time, they would have learned much, having been given greatly superior immortal bodies and intellects, not having to take any time to sleep, etc., so it is hard to see why they would not have become much more learned than us, when we finally receive our rewards.

Being so much more qualified, would they not be much better suited for the best positions in the Kingdom, like ruling cities and nations, (or galaxies, or whatever) when Christ assigns those rewards? We, OTOH, would be fit for only the inferior positions.   :sigh:
   
But Jesus indicated it won't be like that at all!

Matthew 19:29-30
And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.


Some of those who were first, which would include many of the early saints, will be last, he said, while some who are last, (perhaps some living in our age) will be first. That does not fit the scenario above, that says saints who lived and died centuries ago have been made immortal already, implying some have enjoyed immortality for many centuries.

The statement of Jesus, "many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first" does fit the view that all the saints and prophets wait in their graves till the resurrection, at the last trump, which is yet to occur. It is after the first 6 trumpets have been blown. It is at the 7th trumpet that God rewards his servants:

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


And the author of Hebrews also confirms that those who lived before must wait for their rewards, till we are ready to join them: "they without us should not be made perfect." [Hebrews 11:40]

Doug

Chris

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #149 on: September 29, 2009, 03:37:31 AM »
The soul is what dies, as many scriptures indicate; I don't say it ceases to exist. Adam was made a "living soul," and he eventually died, as all do.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Hi Doug,

What do you see is the difference between the first Adam being "a living soul" and the last Adam being "a quickening spirit"?

Why do we insist on Christ having a resurrected body of flesh and bones, when He is called "a quickening SPIRIT"?

Why do we insist on a "bodily" resurrection when it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened while the flesh profits nothing? when we are told that that which is sown (our natural body) in not that which is reaped (or spiritual body)?

Why do we insist on the flesh being saved/resurrected in light of the above and the fact that Paul says that it is THE SPIRIT that is saved in the day of the Lord?


The penalty for sin for this "living soul" (the first Adam) is "death", right? You say that Adam eventually died, but what death did Adam suffer "in the day" that he sinned? What death was passed on to all men, as a result of sin? Physical death?

What about the bigger picture that is seen in a figure in Genesis? The fact that it is not until God breathes "the breath of life" into Adam/man that Adam/man is made "a living soul" ... and it is not until God "sends forth His spirit" that we are "created", that we pass from death unto "life" (are "made a LIVING soul"... as the soul that sins IS DEAD)?


Quote from: Doug

David indicated the souls of the dead are in the "hand of the grave."

Psalm 89:48
What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

How does that relate to "the body of this death" that Paul desired to be delivered from when he said:

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

A 'body' that is "full of dead men's bones" and whose THROAT is "an open sepulcher" and whose TONGUE is "a world of iniquity... set on fire of hell"?

Quote from: Doug

He describes the dead as "cut off from thy hand." They are cut off while in the "hand of the grave."

Psalm 88:3-6
3 For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave.
4 I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength:
5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
6 Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps.

Again, how can that be applies spiritually to "the body of this death"? to those who are "dead" (in sin) while they live?

Quote from: Doug
OTOH, Peter indicates our "soul" is what is to be "saved," as he spoke of "the salvation of your souls."

1 Peter 1:8-10
8 [Jesus Christ:] Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

AMEN!! And is not CHRIST the author and the finisher (THE END) of our faith? Even "the salvation of our souls" (we being "dead" in sin)?

It is CHRIST IN YOU that is the hope of glory, right? And that life IS HID within us. And it is not until HE ((who is our life)) APPEARS, that WE appear ((with him)) IN GLORY, right?

Col 3:2-4 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

We pass from death unto life IN THIS WORLD. As he is so are we IN THIS WORLD. Right?

But even those who "sleep" who are "dead" are IN CHRIST, as God was in Christ reconciling THE WORLD unto himself, creating ONE NEW MAN (Eph 2:15), having baptized us, by one spirit, into one body (whether Jew or Gentile, bond or free):

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.



Quote from: Doug

The prophets indicate that whatever our inheritance is to be, it will be something wonderful.

Isaiah 64:4
For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.


Paul thought so too.

Romans 8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


Hope this helps, Doug

AMEN!!  :thumbsup: