Author Topic: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?  (Read 48022 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #100 on: September 26, 2009, 07:18:37 PM »
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.  

no worries no fear  :bgdance:

That's my favorite.

Such a strange order he puts that in--died, rose, revived.... :gangel:


"rose"

G450
ἀνίστημι
anistēmi
an-is'-tay-mee
From G303 and G2476; to stand up (literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively): - arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up (-right).


"revived"

G326
ἀναζάω
anazaō
an-ad-zah'-o
From G303 and G2198; to recover life (literally or figuratively): - (be a-) live again, revive.

Offline CHB

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #101 on: September 26, 2009, 07:21:24 PM »
Seth, I've read the other verses before I posted but still I'm confused about the red words.
"Bring with Him"
a] When?
b] From where?
c] To where.

Jesus is in heaven right now so doesn't that mean that those He brought with Him are also there?

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Hi WhiteWings,

I have a problem with the red words as well. There are a lot of scriptures that indicate that there are saints with Christ now. If Christ came back in the disciples day... I would say while John was still living... and took all those who were in him back with him, that would explain a lot of verses that are now confusing to me.

You just don't get it do you? Repeat after me: "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." Say it till your voice turns horse. There is no verse in all the Bible that says saints are with Jesus right now. That is impossible. They must wait for His return to this earth and then they meet the Lord. It is that hard a concept?

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Jesus said those who pierced him would see him and he said many times, "I come quickly". Or the time is at hand. There are a few scriptures that say Christ will bring saints with him. He also said "there be some standing here that shall not taste of death , till they see the kingdom of God". 

Please quote those verses verbatum.

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What if Christ came back after all the disciples were dead, except for John and took all the saints who were dead and alive at that time back with him? When he comes back he will bring them with him, set up an earthly kingdom where the disciples will set on twelve thrones and Christ will teach the world until all is in all. Or maybe the kingdom has already happened?

What if unicorns turn into elephants. pink ones at that.
Quote
I will probably get booted off now that I have posted. This darn computer. :mblush:



Hi Tony,

No,  "I don't get it" ALL YET, that is why I posted what I did, am trying to figure it all out. There are a lot of verses that would make more sense if what I said were true. I know Paul said "only God has immortality" but did you not read what I said about Paul being dead and the only disciple who would have been alive when Christ came back was John? At the time Paul said "only God has immortality" it was true. Remember when one of the disciples asked Jesus if John would live forever and Jesus answered and said "what is it to you if he tarry till I come". John would have been the only disciple who was alive when this happened. While Paul was alive no one had received the promises nor been resurrected.  Sorry if I ruffled your feathers.  :mblush: You may be right and me wrong I don't know but I sure have a lot of questions on this subject. I do not believe anyone can communicate with the dead.  

CHB
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 07:53:15 PM by CHB »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #102 on: September 26, 2009, 08:19:07 PM »
Hi Molly,
The grammatical name for for when something is spoken of as literally future but spoken of as taking place now, is a figure of speech called "proleptic."

For instance, Paul says "Who rescues us out of the jurisdiction of darkness and  transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love" (Col.1:13) is written as if it is present tense, but in reality it is in the aorist which has the sign of the past and future in the aorist.

Now the wonderful thing is that we can live now as if this has already happened. But the reality is that it will happen in fact in the future when we meet the Lord in the air.

I think it is the same with those Hebrew believers of 12:22-24. They, in their mind and spirit can live as if they have literally come to what the writer writes about. But it will actually come to pass when the Lord returns and sets up the 1000 year kingdom.

Quote from: Tony
The only way to communicate with the dead is with demonic spiritism and even then, one is not really communicating with the dead but with familiar demonic spirits.

Yes, I agree.  I'm not talking about seance  lol. 

I do enjoy seeing what each person believes, because it is so personal and interesting.

No one has yet told me how else to interpret Heb 12:22-24. Was he just talking through his hat? You are come unto mount Sion, he says.  That's not future, that's present.   It's not the only place such things are talked about.

Verse 21 is about Mount Sinai and the law whereas verse 22 is about mount Zion where there is the new covenant (vs.24) which displaces the old under Moses. I don't think the writers of Hebrews was telling them all that they have physically come to mount Zion and to 10,000 messengers etc. But spiritually, by believing in the Christ, the Messiah, they have done away with the old law which was through the hands of messengers on Mt. Sinai to the new covenant with 10,000 messengers. Of course I don't know everything and could be wrong about this issue. I'm just kind of writing to myself as I write this.

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11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

--Mat 8:11

Yes, verse 11 is about Abe, Isaac and Jacob being resurrected and going into the kingdom which will be set up on the earth and many from the east and west will come there too and sit down with them.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 09:32:54 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #103 on: September 26, 2009, 08:27:13 PM »
 :cloud9: I love you too, Seth.  :girlheart: Glad you're not taking me discussing this in a bad light. I appreciate that.  :thumbsup:

I understand that their faith is a witness to us, I get that. But that faith is not surrounding us by being dead and buried and in a tomb, and frankly, if that is the extent of faith, then what do I need to believe any different from the heathen for, then? For they have faith that lands them in the tombs, too.

Even Jesus said, "she's not dead, she sleepeth", and they that were present laughed Him to scorn. When I sleep, I'm not really dead, I'm just not "with it" and it could be said at that moment, that I know nothing (some might argue that point exists when I'm awake as well, but I digress  :winkgrin:).

God never intended for man to die; they were free to eat of ALL the trees in the garden (except the tree of knowledge of good and evil) including the tree of life. He said in the DAY that ye eat of it ye shall sure die, and sure enough Adam lived a few decades under that PERFECT day of 1000 years, and then he died.

They were removed from the presence of that "tree" to keep them from eating of it in their fallen state and living forever in that fallen state. We hear this thought echoed in the NT where it talks about there being no more remission for sins after we have tasted of the heavenly gift and willfully transgressed.

So someone tell me again; why.....after gaining entrance to it again, and eating of the tree of life, are we STILL all dying?

Let me share what I've seen. Our souls must come into union with His Spirit; this is the sanctification, and the first resurrection, for if we make ourselves (our soul and body) a living (Adam was made a living soul) sacrifice by tying ourselves down on the altar with cords of love that cannot be broken, then out of that "death" comes life, the life of UNION.

There were two sets of curtains/veils in the tabernacle. Going thru the first is as the rending of OUR flesh as we laid down our lives to enter into the Spirit which is Christ, symbolized by the walk of the priests from the outer to the inner court. This is not an instantaneous thing, you don't go from 30 ford to 60 fold, you start at 31, and walk out your own salvation (means deliverance) with fear and trembling, in this realm.

In the outer court it is spirit salvation, but the inner court begins soul salvation process, for we are saved, spirit, soul, and body, which is why the apostles said they/we are waiting for the redemption of our bodies, because they had already been working on the sanctification of their souls in the inner court experience that is Pentecost.

This why the souls that have not made it to the end of this union, because it was not time yet in God's timeline, have not just "ceased to exist", because their bodies have died. Why? Because Pentecost was a wedding, and their soul was being prepared as a spotless virgin bride to be consummated by His Spirit that it might produce a SON. Fullness of times, is as the fullness of a womb, that is getting ready to unveil the firstborn Son.

If those souls ceased to exist, this is no different than when in the NT He was asked about divorce. He told the Pharisees that because of the hardness of your hearts Moses (the law/letter understanding) allowed a bill of divorcement. Hardness of heart is a Hebrew understanding that means "dull of hearing". So what He was saying to them was, that since you refuse to listen to the Spirit behind the letter, the letter/Moses will allow you to put away your wife/soul = DIE.

This is the reason why anyone joining themselves to "she that is divorced" committeth adultery. She that is "divorced" in this understanding, is one of the souls that have been "put off" by her husband for "fornication", which is being joined to another SPIRIT that is not His = not sanctified. This is the real reason why we are told not to talk to the dead (necromancy), as in not "joining" ourselves to a "divorced woman/soul", for indeed if they knew anything (the dead know nothing) of lasting value apart from the Spirit (unless they were born out of season), they would not be dead!

And they are not ours to join ourselves to, but are HIS bride, and He will attend to her after He attends to the firstfruits, ie. those that ARE DEAD IN CHRIST (from laying their lives on the altar, yet live in a body = firstfruits) shall arise first, then those that are alive (have NOT died to self to enter FULLY into union with Christ, whether in a body or NOT) and remain, shall be caught up to meet Him in the "air" = His breath/Spirit.

Any questions as to who is alive and who is dead, Jesus said let the dead bury the dead, YOU FOLLOW ME. Blessings.....

« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 08:22:38 AM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #104 on: September 27, 2009, 07:17:51 AM »
16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

 17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

 18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

 19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

 20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

 21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

--Luke 4




8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

 9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)



--Eph 4




[descended first into the] "lower" [parts of the earth]

G2737
κατώτερος
katōteros
kat-o'-ter-os
Compound from G2736; inferior (locally, of Hades): - lower.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #105 on: September 27, 2009, 02:47:06 PM »
Psa 139:15  My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Obviously the lowest parts of the earth and Christ going to the lower parts of the earth have some meaning but surely not some sort of Dantean hell.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

"But more conclusive is the phrase "heart of the sea."
"It is applied to the place at which the Israelites crossed the "Red" Sea (Ex.15:8; CV "Terminal Sea"). It describes the way of a ship upon the surface of the sea (Prov.30:19). But the most striking and instructive example is its fourfold reference to the city of Tyre, which was partly on an island on the coast of Canaan. Indeed, the island was so near the shore that Alexander the Great, in order to conquer it, built a mole out of the ruins of the shore city and thus connected it with the mainland. Tyre was far, indeed, from being in the center of the sea in any sense. And if Tyre might be described as being in the heart of the sea, what difficulty can there be in speaking of our Lord's tomb as "in the heart" of the earth (Matt.12:40)? It may sound strange to us, but most natural to those who heard Him.

" The same principle applies to the phrase "the lower parts of the earth" (Eph.4:9). Neither the Psalm which is quoted nor the context in Ephesians, give any color to a subterranean visit. The contrast is between Sinai (Psa.68:17,18), when our Lord did not condescend to the lower parts of the earth (but came down only to a high, inaccessible mountain, and the captivity to the law was thus prefigured), and the humiliation of His earthly life, when He, literally as well as figuratively, condescended into the very vales and depths (bringing gifts, and, through His death, resurrection and ascension, leading captive the captivity which Sinai had brought). The rendering "multitude of captives" has no foundation in fact. The baptism of our Lord actually took place at the lowest spot on the surface of the earth." (A.E. Knoch, Unsearchable Riches, vol.55).
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #106 on: September 27, 2009, 06:20:19 PM »
Quote
The scripture you quoted, Heb 11:40, seems to say the saints of the OT are to be together with us in the resurrection, not in a different one. IMO.

Doug

Yes, I'm sorry for being a litte too glib there. 
This is a complicated subject, --maybe you could help me out.


22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


--1 cor 15



Three groups are made alive in this order: 1)Christ the firstfruits, 2) they that are Christ's at his coming, 3)the rest after Christ puts down all rule, authority, and power.

Three different harvests--Barley, wheat, and grapes--represents 3 different groups harvested to Christ?

We see that Christ the firstfruits include more than Jesus himself [although he is the first of the firstfruits of them that slept]:  these would be the firstfruits of the first harvest [barley]--

Romans 16:5
Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


1 Corinthians 16:15
I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)


James 1:18
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


These would also include the Old Testament saints of Hebrews 11 [of whom the world was not worthy]


Each harvest has a firstfruits.  The first harvest is barley and Christ is the firstfruits of that harvest.  We see when Christ says the fields are white with harvest--he is referring to barley which turns white right before harvest--so this is referring to the barley harvest [which is also Passover].

John 4:35
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.


The three harvests are also aligned with the three feasts of Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles.

Now I can 'see' Cardinal saying the three harvests represent spirit, soul, and body.  And, I would agree with that if she did because I always agree with Cardinal rofl.  But I think also, an historical time schedule is involved here, which is something that Tony is looking at, as well.  We have both Old Testament saints [who would be a type of firstfruits with us--?] and the rest of Israel [divorced by God--a different harvest?].

I'm trying to clarify this a little.  Can you help?

Here's a question relevant to this thread--and I'm trying not to mix too many metaphors.  If Christ the firstfruits [of the barley harvest] [also known as the poor man's harvest--blessed are the poor in spirit:for theirs is the kingdom of heaven]  is the raising of the spirit of just men made perfect, are these the 'clouds,'  are these spiritually alive with Christ at this moment though they be dead physically, can we sit at the marriage feast with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob now?  In other words, for these are not asleep--for we shall not all sleep--this is the better resurrection...?




5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

--Eph 2






Offline Cardinal

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #107 on: September 27, 2009, 07:57:12 PM »
If Christ the firstfruits [of the barley harvest] [also known as the poor man's harvest--blessed are the poor in spirit:for theirs is the kingdom of heaven]  is the raising of the spirit of just men made perfect, are these the 'clouds,'  are these spiritually alive with Christ at this moment though they be dead physically, can we sit at the marriage feast with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob now?  In other words, for these are not asleep--for we shall not all sleep--this is the better resurrection...?

 :cloud9: Good post, Molly, and yes I WOULD say that about the 3 harvests, LOL.

They are alive in Christ, and yes the marriage supper is going on now for whosoever will.
The first part of that is when He joins us to Himself thru His Spirit VIA REVELATION. The revelation that we are receiving OF Him, IS Him revealing Himself IN THEM, and then revealing that same glory IN US.

Christ IN YOU, is the hope of glory. There is no glory "out there" somewhere, no glory waiting to "fly away", no glory laying down our physical bodies. His glory is His nature manifested, which is rooted in the love of the Father for His creation.
 
I wish I could say this in a way that it would really hit everyone, but Christ is SPIRIT that is outside of time, He IS the 7th day of no part darkness, and the promised land we are to FULLY enter into. When He said, Abraham saw my day and was glad, when do you think He saw it, and do you think He was talking about a literal 24 hour day?

When He told the Pharisees who tried to claim their natural heritage from Abraham as a banner over them, He rebuked them by saying if you knew Abraham, you would know Me. They were stunned because he was barely 30 years old in the natural, so they could not comprehend how He could know a patriarch from so long ago.

And yet He told them Abraham knew HIM (us in Him) and He knew Abraham (Him in us). They didn't perceive that the One who was standing there speaking to them from heaven was the SEED of Abraham, which is Spirit, and if the Seed was standing there, SO WAS THE FRUIT, EVEN IF THEY COULDN'T SEE IT. Halleluyah!

THIS is why we are surrounded (as the fruit surrounds the seed that is in it) by so great a cloud of witnesses, because you cannot separate the SEED from the fruit, FOR THE LIFE OF THE FRUIT IS CONTAINED IN THE SEED. It might be planted in a corruptible body, but it is raised in an incorruptible, JUST LIKE THE SEED. Halleluyah!

And now can you see why Paul should talk, not about literally dying to manifest the glory, but emphatically stating that the glory is going to be revealed in a people that are ALIVE? Because this same SEED is in us.

The manifestation means to reveal or uncover. All of creation is waiting for this glory to be revealed or uncovered. Do you think anyone here in the creation would notice if you put off your body (literally died), and then Christ was revealed to have been in you? NO! That happens everyday, 24/7 and no here takes notice. But let a people die to self, and lay all the glory at His feet as crowns, so that Father can rend the veil in a people that can't die anymore, and creation will cry out! Blessings....
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 08:49:30 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #108 on: September 27, 2009, 08:33:16 PM »

 
 good stuff gals
  I am hearing ya !  :gangel: wow!!  :thumbsup:
Jesus is the reward  !!

Doug

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #109 on: September 27, 2009, 08:37:36 PM »
Quote from: Molly on Today at 11:20:19 AM

Yes, I'm sorry for being a litte too glib there.
This is a complicated subject, --maybe you could help me out.


22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

--1 cor 15



Three groups are made alive in this order: 1)Christ the firstfruits, 2) they that are Christ's at his coming, 3)the rest after Christ puts down all rule, authority, and power.


Yes. That seems to be supported by 1 cor 15.

Quote from: Molly on Today at 11:20:19 AM

Three different harvests--Barley, wheat, and grapes--represents 3 different groups harvested to Christ?


I don't see what scriptures the idea of distinct barley harvest, as symbolic of a resurrection, rests upon. It may be someone's unfounded opinion.

Wheat and barley harvests seem to have the same significance in Joel 1:11. They don't refer to a resurrection, but perhaps have the same meaning Jesus attached to the fields that were white and ready to harvest in John 4:35. Where else is a barley harvest mentioned as symbolic in prophecy?

And, what about the rice harvest? Or the fig harvest? Or the cucumber harvest? etc. 

Quote from: Molly on Today at 11:20:19 AM

We see that Christ the firstfruits include more than Jesus himself [although he is the first of the firstfruits of them that slept]:  these would be the firstfruits of the first harvest [barley]--

Romans 16:5
Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


1 Corinthians 16:15
I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)


James 1:18
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


Yes, and I think they can be identified with the firstfruits in Rev. 14:4.

Revelation 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


Being a "virgin" can be interpreted spiritually, as someone who does not follow seducing spirits and seduce others by teaching false doctrines. [2 Cor. 11:3]

Quote

These would also include the Old Testament saints of Hebrews 11 [of whom the world was not worthy]


I agree.

Quote from: Molly on Today at 11:20:19 AM

Each harvest has a firstfruits.  The first harvest is barley and Christ is the firstfruits of that harvest.  We see when Christ says the fields are white with harvest--he is referring to barley which turns white right before harvest--so this is referring to the barley harvest [which is also Passover].

John 4:35
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.


In my view, when Christ spoke of the fields as "ready to harvest" he was not referring to a resurrection at all, but he meant people becoming converted, and believing the gospel. That is a different kind of harvest. Thousands were added to the church in the early period after Pentecost.

J. B. Coffman wrote:

They are white already unto the harvest ...
See under John 4:30, above. The white-clad multitude passing over the green fields between the village and the well had indeed turned them white; and our Lord was looking upon the immediate harvest of souls as contrasted with the grain harvest yet four months in the future. By directing the eyes of the apostles to what was taking place, he restrained their further insistence that he should eat. Dr. Tristram, as quoted by Westcott, "found the wheat and barley near Jerusalem, sown just after Christmas, four inches high on February 2Oth."

The comparison of converted souls to a harvest made a profound impression upon John who made five references to it in as many verses (Revelation 14:14-19). "Send forth thy sickle and reap; for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe," etc.


Quote from: Molly on Today at 11:20:19 AM

The three harvests are also aligned with the three feasts of Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles.

Now I can 'see' Cardinal saying the three harvests represent spirit, soul, and body.  And, I would agree with that if she did because I always agree with Cardinal rofl.  But I think also, an historical time schedule is involved here, which is something that Tony is looking at, as well.  We have both Old Testament saints [who would be a type of firstfruits with us--?] and the rest of Israel [divorced by God--a different harvest?].

I'm trying to clarify this a little.  Can you help?


Jesus spoke of "summer" as the time when we see the signs of his coming [Mat. 24:32; Luke 21:30] and said we should pray that our flight will not be in "winter, or on the sabbath day." [Mat. 24:20; Mark 13:18]

Winter would be the time after the harvest; to have to flee in the winter would mean one had missed out on the harvest! He would not be included in the 144,000, and so would be included in the second group in Rev 7. "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." It is best to be in the first group, I think Jesus was suggesting.

The sabbath day is the type of our promised "rest." [Heb. 4:9] To be left behind, would mean that person would need to endure the tribulation of the judgment, when others had already inherited their "rest."

Quote from: Molly on Today at 11:20:19 AM

Here's a question relevant to this thread--and I'm trying not to mix too many metaphors.  If Christ the firstfruits [of the barley harvest] [also known as the poor man's harvest--blessed are the poor in spirit:for theirs is the kingdom of heaven]  is the raising of the spirit of just men made perfect, are these the 'clouds,'  are these spiritually alive with Christ at this moment though they be dead physically, can we sit at the marriage feast with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob now?  In other words, for these are not asleep--for we shall not all sleep--this is the better resurrection...?




5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

--Eph 2


Jesus spoke of the judgment when the Gentiles of past ages will be raised up to life. That's when they will hear the gospel.

Luke 10:13-14
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.

Matthew 12:41-42
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


Paul spoke of the judgment as "the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." [Rom. 2:16]

Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.


Doug


« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 08:42:42 PM by Doug »

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #110 on: September 27, 2009, 09:09:31 PM »
Quote
Three different harvests--Barley, wheat, and grapes--represents 3 different groups harvested to Christ?



I don't see what scriptures the idea of distinct barley harvest, as symbolic of a resurrection, rests upon. It may be someone's unfounded opinion.

Wheat and barley harvests seem to have the same significance in Joel 1:11. They don't refer to a resurrection, but perhaps have the same meaning Jesus attached to the fields that were white and ready to harvest in John 4:35. Where else is a barley harvest mentioned as symbolic in prophecy?

And, what about the rice harvest? Or the fig harvest? Or the cucumber harvest? etc


  Hi Bro D !
  just wanted to add this , because I have looked and been in conversations sharing these thoughts  with others over the years on the barley harvest , barley = grain  meaning in the sense of roughness

  it was for the poor  and Jesus told us here

 
 
 
 Mar 14:7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always. 
 
 it is symbolic of  Exodus 23  a good chapter on how to treat  the less fortunate and be Blessed of the Lord
 
  I am not trying to  cause any  trouble , just help a bit  :thumbsup:
 
   :HeartThrob: rose
Jesus is the reward  !!

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #111 on: September 27, 2009, 09:10:21 PM »
As I see it, Christ preached "to the dead" while he was here on earth.

And the gospel continues to be preached "to the dead" (to those who "sleep"... "in the night") here "in the earth".

Yes, ONLY CHRIST hath immortality!!  :thumbsup:

But it is THIS MORTAL that must PUT ON immortality (by being "clothed" with our "heavenly" body... which we should know that if this earthly tabernacle were dissolved, that WE HAVE this house of God, not made with hands).  :wink3:

We do not desire to be UN-CLOTHED, but CLOTHED UPON!! Right?  :nod:

Christ words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE. They are to be "rightly divided" in order to be "spiritually discerned". Right? And we are to be looking upon that which is NOT SEEN (that is "eternal") rather than upon that which IS SEEN (that is temporal), right?

So, as I see it, the physical grave is merely a shadow/type of "the body of this death" of which Paul spoke, that is "full of dead men's bones" and whose THROAT is "an open sepulcher" and whose TONGUE is "a world of iniquity... set in fire of hell/Gehenna".

When Christ said "TODAY shalt thou be with me in paradise" He was speaking a SPIRITUAL truth, as it is TODAY when we hear His voice and harden not out hearts that we are given right to THE TREE OF LIFE (which is IN THE PARADISE OF GOD).

The gospel has nothing to do with physical death or with physically dead corpses rotting in literal graves in need of a physical resurrection. As far as I can tell, that is just the shadow/type of a spiritual reality... just as Christ healing the physically lame, deaf, blind and dead were physical types of spiritual realities.  :Chinscratch:

We tend to look at verses that say "the dead know not anything" or "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest" and we apply that to physically dead corpses in physical graves and forget that they are SPIRITUAL TRUTHS:

John 9:4: I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Pro 9:13-18 A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing. For she sitteth at the door of her house, on a seat in the high places of the city, To call passengers who go right on their ways: Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: and as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him, Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant. But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

We look at "sheol" and "hades" (hell) and we are to see only the physical grave??? :Oops:

I don't think so (even though that is all I could see for awhile after coming to believe in Universal Salvation). I no longer believe that to say sheol/hades = the grave is the truth. It is merely the type/shadow/figure that we have been given in order to see THE TRUTH (that which is NOT SEEN, that is ETERNAL/AIONIOS).

It seem to me, upon further study, that "hell" is "in the earth", that this is 'the abode of the dead'... whereto Christ descended... and wherein he did lie "even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword".

Christ came "to send fire on the earth" and "NOW is the judgment of this world". And HE IS "the resurrection and the life"!! AMEN!!??

It is here that men are cast into "a fiery furnace" (the second death) and only those who walk with Christ through the fire shall not be hurt (just as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were not hurt) of the second death.

The righteous and much more the wicked and sinner are recompensed IN THE EARTH are they not? (Pro 11:31)

Just my 2 or 3 cents.  :2c:

 :grave:

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #112 on: September 27, 2009, 09:15:04 PM »
As I see it, Christ preached "to the dead" while he was here on earth.

And the gospel continues to be preached "to the dead" (to those who "sleep"... "in the night") here "in the earth".

Yes, ONLY CHRIST hath immortality!!  :thumbsup:

But it is THIS MORTAL that must PUT ON immortality (by being "clothed" with our "heavenly" body... which we should know that if this earthly tabernacle were dissolved, that WE HAVE this house of God, not made with hands).  :wink3:

We do not desire to be UN-CLOTHED, but CLOTHED UPON!! Right?  :nod:

Christ words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE. They are to be "rightly divided" in order to be "spiritually discerned". Right? And we are to be looking upon that which is NOT SEEN (that is "eternal") rather than upon that which IS SEEN (that is temporal), right?

So, as I see it, the physical grave is merely a shadow/type of "the body of this death" of which Paul spoke, that is "full of dead men's bones" and whose THROAT is "an open sepulcher" and whose TONGUE is "a world of iniquity... set in fire of hell/Gehenna".

When Christ said "TODAY shalt thou be with me in paradise" He was speaking a SPIRITUAL truth, as it is TODAY when we hear His voice and harden not out hearts that we are given right to THE TREE OF LIFE (which is IN THE PARADISE OF GOD).

The gospel has nothing to do with physical death or with physically dead corpses rotting in literal graves in need of a physical resurrection. As far as I can tell, that is just the shadow/type of a spiritual reality... just as Christ healing the physically lame, deaf, blind and dead were physical types of spiritual realities.  :Chinscratch:

We tend to look at verses that say "the dead know not anything" or "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest" and we apply that to physically dead corpses in physical graves and forget that they are SPIRITUAL TRUTHS:

John 9:4: I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Pro 9:13-18 A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing. For she sitteth at the door of her house, on a seat in the high places of the city, To call passengers who go right on their ways: Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: and as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him, Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant. But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

We look at "sheol" and "hades" (hell) and we are to see only the physical grave??? :Oops:

I don't think so (even though that is all I could see for awhile after coming to believe in Universal Salvation). I no longer believe that to say sheol/hades = the grave is the truth. It is merely the type/shadow/figure that we have been given in order to see THE TRUTH (that which is NOT SEEN, that is ETERNAL/AIONIOS).

It seem to me, upon further study, that "hell" is "in the earth", that this is 'the abode of the dead'... whereto Christ descended... and wherein he did lie "even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword".

Christ came "to send fire on the earth" and "NOW is the judgment of this world". And HE IS "the resurrection and the life"!! AMEN!!??

It is here that men are cast into "a fiery furnace" (the second death) and only those who walk with Christ through the fire shall not be hurt (just as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were not hurt) of the second death.

The righteous and much more the wicked and sinner are recompensed IN THE EARTH are they not? (Pro 11:31)

Just my 2 or 3 cents.  :2c:

 :grave:

  WOW!!!!!!!!!! LOVE THIS   ! Thanks Chris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! awesome , and so clear  , I am blown away !
  where you been all my life ?
  :HeartThrob:  rose
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #113 on: September 27, 2009, 09:15:22 PM »
 :cloud9: And a WONDERFUL 2 or 3 cents it was!   :thumbsup: :girlheart: Blessingss....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #114 on: September 27, 2009, 09:26:29 PM »
Quote
WOW!!!!!!!!!! LOVE THIS   ! Thanks Chris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! awesome , and so clear  , I am blown away !
  where you been all my life ?
  :HeartThrob:  rose

Hey Rosie!! I told ya I would come and check in. It just took me a few days.  :gwink:

 :ilu:

Offline Taffy

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #115 on: September 27, 2009, 09:27:02 PM »
 Hi Kiddo :icon_flower:

Nice to see you posting once again  :HeartThrob:



 :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Chris

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #116 on: September 27, 2009, 09:28:17 PM »
Hi Kiddo :icon_flower:

Nice to see you posting once again  :HeartThrob:



 :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
HA!  And here I thought you were only hanging out on the farmS these days.  :grin:

Offline Taffy

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #117 on: September 27, 2009, 09:29:15 PM »
Quote
WOW!!!!!!!!!! LOVE THIS   ! Thanks Chris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! awesome , and so clear  , I am blown away !
  where you been all my life ?
  :HeartThrob:  rose

Hey Rosie!! I told ya I would come and check in. It just took me a few days.  :gwink:

 :ilu:
ya been test driving yer new car....rofl..must have wore it out by now :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Chris

  • Guest
Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #118 on: September 27, 2009, 09:29:19 PM »
:cloud9: And a WONDERFUL 2 or 3 cents it was!   :thumbsup: :girlheart: Blessingss....

Hi Cardinal! Thanks!

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #119 on: September 27, 2009, 09:31:26 PM »
Quote
WOW!!!!!!!!!! LOVE THIS   ! Thanks Chris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! awesome , and so clear  , I am blown away !
  where you been all my life ?
  :HeartThrob:  rose

Hey Rosie!! I told ya I would come and check in. It just took me a few days.  :gwink:

 :ilu:
 like Card and Taffy aka  Bro G !
  glad to see you back and checkin' in sista C !
  good stuff I sure needed to hear today
   lots to consider  in this  post of yours ! wow
  dead to Christ or dead to the world  
 we cannot eat of both trees at the same time
!  :HeartThrob:  luv you girl ! rose
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Taffy

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #120 on: September 27, 2009, 09:31:35 PM »
Hi Kiddo :icon_flower:

Nice to see you posting once again  :HeartThrob:



 :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
HA!  And here I thought you were only hanging out on the farmS these days.  :grin:

Rofl


yeah, and me flowers need watering..where have yer been  :HeartThrob:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #121 on: September 27, 2009, 09:35:10 PM »
Hi Kiddo :icon_flower:

Nice to see you posting once again  :HeartThrob:



 :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
HA!  And here I thought you were only hanging out on the farmS these days.  :grin:

Rofl


yeah, and me flowers need watering..where have yer been  :HeartThrob:
  Ha too cute
   Bro G is a flower child of the 60's I reckin' hee hee  :HeartThrob:
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #122 on: September 27, 2009, 09:37:59 PM »
Quote from: Tony
The baptism of our Lord actually took place at the lowest spot on the surface of the earth." (A.E. Knoch, Unsearchable Riches, vol.55).

wow!

Offline Taffy

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #123 on: September 27, 2009, 09:40:46 PM »
Hi Kiddo :icon_flower:

Nice to see you posting once again  :HeartThrob:



 :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
HA!  And here I thought you were only hanging out on the farmS these days.  :grin:

Rofl


yeah, and me flowers need watering..where have yer been  :HeartThrob:
  Ha too cute
   Bro G is a flower child of the 60's I reckin' hee hee  :HeartThrob:
:icon_flower:
Hi Rosie
im so glad that Old Pc is holding out ,cos when it does go im\we sure going do what ever it takes so you can Get a New one...cos we cant have you going quiet on us. :HeartThrob:


Blessings Sis
G x
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 09:48:18 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #124 on: September 27, 2009, 10:45:05 PM »
The gospel has nothing to do with physical death or with physically dead corpses rotting in literal graves in need of a physical resurrection. As far as I can tell, that is just the shadow/type of a spiritual reality... just as Christ healing the physically lame, deaf, blind and dead were physical types of spiritual realities.  :Chinscratch:

We tend to look at verses that say "the dead know not anything" or "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest" and we apply that to physically dead corpses in physical graves and forget that they are SPIRITUAL TRUTHS:

We look at "sheol" and "hades" (hell) and we are to see only the physical grave??? :Oops:

I don't think so (even though that is all I could see for awhile after coming to believe in Universal Salvation). I no longer believe that to say sheol/hades = the grave is the truth. It is merely the type/shadow/figure that we have been given in order to see THE TRUTH (that which is NOT SEEN, that is ETERNAL/AIONIOS).

It seem to me, upon further study, that "hell" is "in the earth", that this is 'the abode of the dead'... whereto Christ descended... and wherein he did lie "even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword".

Christ came "to send fire on the earth" and "NOW is the judgment of this world". And HE IS "the resurrection and the life"!! AMEN!!??

It is here that men are cast into "a fiery furnace" (the second death) and only those who walk with Christ through the fire shall not be hurt (just as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were not hurt) of the second death.

The righteous and much more the wicked and sinner are recompensed IN THE EARTH are they not? (Pro 11:31)


"Many have lost touch with true life, in the dress rehearsal of their own death."

 :goodpost: peacemaker