Author Topic: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?  (Read 40377 times)

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Offline Seth

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #75 on: September 25, 2009, 08:06:15 PM »
NAS1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

How exactly should I read the red words?
I read it as when Jesus raised from the dead or returned to heaven He brought those that where asleep/dead with Him to Heave/Father.



I read it along with the rest of the context. Those who are alive SHALL NOT go before those who are dead. They will be raised together. So God will bring with him those who are resurrected and those who are alive and instantly changed to incorruptible.  When comes the end the saints will appear with him in glory to the world, and the world will be received into their glorious liberty. This is the "each man to his order" described in 1 Cor 15. Do you see the impartiality in that?



Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #76 on: September 25, 2009, 08:10:52 PM »
Seth, I've read the other verses before I posted but still I'm confused about the red words.
"Bring with Him"
a] When?
b] From where?
c] To where.

Jesus is in heaven right now so doesn't that mean that those He brought with Him are also there?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Seth

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #77 on: September 25, 2009, 08:15:34 PM »
Seth, I've read the other verses before I posted but still I'm confused about the red words.
"Bring with Him"
a] When?
b] From where?
c] To where.

Jesus is in heaven right now so doesn't that mean that those He brought with Him are also there?

No because those who are alive shall not go before those who are dead. It's impartial. It all happens together for the saints, none going before the other.

So when God says he will bring his saints with him, I see that as being he will raise them all together when the time comes. Jesus Christ IS the resurrection. So just as Jesus prayed to God to be clothed with Himself to be returned to his former glory (his perfecting occurring on the third day), so also shall the saints be raised to immortality by being clothed the same way. That is the resurrection. It begins by being raised in likeness (deliverance from sin now), and is completed by being raised to immortality all together in Christ, no more flesh.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 08:21:31 PM by Seth »

Doug

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #78 on: September 25, 2009, 08:46:02 PM »
Jesus spoke of death in at least two different ways. For example, he sometimes referred to living people as dead. This could be called metaphorical death. Here are some examples.

Matthew 8:21-23
And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.


The "dead" who were to bury the disciple's father were presumably that person's living relatives; they were "dead" in a spiritual sense.

Here is another example of metaphorical "death." The prodigal son, while living his life of "fun," was called "dead."   

Luke 15:24
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.


Paul spoke of this too:

1 Timothy 5:6
But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.


The opposite metaphor, of dead persons being called alive, was also employed by Jesus. For example, he referred to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as living.

Mark 12:26-27
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


Here is another example that plainly shows in what sense Jesus meant this to be understood. He spoke of a young girl who had recently died as "not dead," but sleeping.

Mark 5:38-42
38 And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly.
39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
40 And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying.
41 And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise.
42 And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.


The girl was certainly dead, or there would be little point to the story. But it illustrates what Jesus meant, when he said those who believe in him will "never die." They can be raised to life in an instant.

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Jesus spoke of people who died but were to be raised to life as "asleep." The same is seen in Acts, when Stephen was stoned to death.

Acts 7:60
And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.


When Jesus referred to his own death on the cross, he did not call it "sleep," but he referred to being really dead. 

Revelation 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 2:8
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;


Doug

Offline Seth

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #79 on: September 25, 2009, 08:55:00 PM »
Quote
Jesus spoke of death in at least two different ways. For example, he sometimes referred to living people as dead. This could be called metaphorical death. Here are some examples.

I agree. A metaphorical death, sin = sleep. And a literal death, mortality = sleep. Both are sleep.

So.....to be raised to newness of life, free from sin by receiving baptism of the Holy Spirit is a figurative (ie being planted together in the likeness) of Christ's LITERAL death and resurrection (via Romans 6). To receive a figurative resurrection is to be delivered from sin.....yet still mortal.

To attain the resurrection of the dead literally means that the dead shall raise. The living are not raised, they HAVE been raised, that means they started off dead. That goes for BOTH the metaphorical and the literal.


Offline CHB

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #80 on: September 26, 2009, 03:06:14 AM »
Seth, I've read the other verses before I posted but still I'm confused about the red words.
"Bring with Him"
a] When?
b] From where?
c] To where.

Jesus is in heaven right now so doesn't that mean that those He brought with Him are also there?


Hi WhiteWings,

I have a problem with the red words as well. There are a lot of scriptures that indicate that there are saints with Christ now. If Christ came back in the disciples day... I would say while John was still living... and took all those who were in him back with him, that would explain a lot of verses that are now confusing to me.

Jesus said those who pierced him would see him and he said many times, "I come quickly". Or the time is at hand. There are a few scriptures that say Christ will bring saints with him. He also said "there be some standing here that shall not taste of death , till they see the kingdom of God". 

What if Christ came back after all the disciples were dead, except for John and took all the saints who were dead and alive at that time back with him? When he comes back he will bring them with him, set up an earthly kingdom where the disciples will set on twelve thrones and Christ will teach the world until all is in all. Or maybe the kingdom has already happened?

Just some thoughts.

I will probably get booted off now that I have posted. This darn computer. :mblush:

CHB

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #81 on: September 26, 2009, 03:28:12 AM »
Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


Who is that great [vast] cloud of witnesses?  compassed about--we are literally surrounded by them...


Are these the same clouds--


Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


We see that John bows down to worship the angel, but the angel corrects him, saying, I am a felllow servant and your brother.


8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

 9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.


--Rev 22



wow--who is that angel?

"fellowservant"

G4889
σύνδουλος
sundoulos
soon'-doo-los
From G4862 and G1401; a co-slave, that is, servitor or ministrant of the same master (human or divine): - fellowservant.



[of thy] "brethren"

G80
ἀδελφός
adelphos
ad-el-fos'
From G1 (as a connective particle) and δελφύς delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote (much like [H1]): - brother.


"of them which keep" [the sayings of this book]

G5083
τηρέω
tēreō
tay-reh'-o
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch.


Isaiah 52:8
Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.



« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 03:36:03 AM by Molly »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #82 on: September 26, 2009, 05:00:19 AM »
Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


Who is that great [vast] cloud of witnesses?  compassed about--we are literally surrounded by them...

They could be nimbus clouds or cumulous clouds.
Why must everyone look for the esoteric in a verse? Can't the cloud of witnesses just be a whole lot of Jewish believers who were witnessing to God's power in their lives when Hebrews was written?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #83 on: September 26, 2009, 05:05:36 AM »
Seth, I've read the other verses before I posted but still I'm confused about the red words.
"Bring with Him"
a] When?
b] From where?
c] To where.

Jesus is in heaven right now so doesn't that mean that those He brought with Him are also there?

Quote
Hi WhiteWings,

I have a problem with the red words as well. There are a lot of scriptures that indicate that there are saints with Christ now. If Christ came back in the disciples day... I would say while John was still living... and took all those who were in him back with him, that would explain a lot of verses that are now confusing to me.

You just don't get it do you? Repeat after me: "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." Say it till your voice turns horse. There is no verse in all the Bible that says saints are with Jesus right now. That is impossible. They must wait for His return to this earth and then they meet the Lord. It is that hard a concept?

Quote
Jesus said those who pierced him would see him and he said many times, "I come quickly". Or the time is at hand. There are a few scriptures that say Christ will bring saints with him. He also said "there be some standing here that shall not taste of death , till they see the kingdom of God". 

Please quote those verses verbatum.

Quote
What if Christ came back after all the disciples were dead, except for John and took all the saints who were dead and alive at that time back with him? When he comes back he will bring them with him, set up an earthly kingdom where the disciples will set on twelve thrones and Christ will teach the world until all is in all. Or maybe the kingdom has already happened?

What if unicorns turn into elephants. pink ones at that.
Quote
I will probably get booted off now that I have posted. This darn computer. :mblush:

CHB

Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #84 on: September 26, 2009, 05:14:07 AM »
NAS1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

How exactly should I read the red words?
I read it as when Jesus raised from the dead or returned to heaven He brought those that where asleep/dead with Him to Heave/Father.

1Th 4:14 For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him."

WW, you can't just cut a verse out of its context and build a theological construct from it like Jesus bringing back with Him immortal souls of dead saints who were playing volleyball with Him in Heaven until He returns. Here is the context:

1Th 4:14 For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him."
1Th 4:15-17  For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose,  (16)  for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first,  (17)  Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord."

God, through Jesus will lead forth together with Him the dead who are going to rise from their graves and the living saints at that exact same time will be changed. Then the two groups at the exact same time will meet the Lord in the air and from that point they will be led together with Him. Get it?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #85 on: September 26, 2009, 05:21:22 AM »
Quote
You just don't get it do you? Repeat after me: "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." Say it till your voice turns horse. There is no verse in all the Bible that says saints are with Jesus right now. That is impossible. They must wait for His return to this earth and then they meet the Lord. It is that hard a concept?

Hi T :icon_flower:
 IF I MAY - maybe there things you DONT get Bud?, like we are not of this Forum to BROW beat or force feed ANYONE, lots could  be said of you , like us all,  AS IN theres somethings WE JUST DONT GET YET?

so Kindly Back off.

ty T :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Seth

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #86 on: September 26, 2009, 05:55:47 AM »
Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


Who is that great [vast] cloud of witnesses?  compassed about--we are literally surrounded by them...


To know specifically, just look at the context.

Checkout Hebrews 12:1 and compare it to the entire Chapter of Hebrews 11.

The word "witness" was translated from "martus" into three English words in the KJV: "witness" "record" and "martyr." The word "martus" can indeed be a reference to one who watches, but also as one who speaks:

Ac 22:15
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.


2 Co 1:23 -
Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare youI came not as yet unto Corinth.


Applying that to what we see in Hebrews 11: "these all died in faith not recieving the promises" that those are the cloud of witnesses (the RECORD bearers - the ones who testified but did not receive) it is reasonable that those who died did indeed bear record of what we have received and that they WILL receive when they are resurrected. We are surrounded by the WITNESS that they left us when they died.


 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 06:16:48 AM by Seth »

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #87 on: September 26, 2009, 07:37:48 AM »
Quote from: Seth
Applying that to what we see in Hebrews 11: "these all died in faith not recieving the promises" that those are the cloud of witnesses (the RECORD bearers - the ones who testified but did not receive) it is reasonable that those who died did indeed bear record of what we have received and that they WILL receive when they are resurrected.

Yes, they are those who gave a good report in the OT.  Those who had faith.  You cannot have faith without Christ.  So, if you have faith, you have Christ by definition.

They didn't achieve the promises--but WE did.

He says this--

39 All of those people were praised because they had faith. But none of them received what God had promised. 40 God had planned something better for us. So they would only be made perfect together with us.

--Heb 11

1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

--Heb 12

That is saying to me, you are surrounded by a vast number of witnesses to the truth--they are all around us--

[we also] "are compassed about"

G4029
περίκειμαι
perikeimai
per-ik'-i-mahee
From G4012 and G2749; to lie all around, that is, inclose, encircle, hamper (literally or figuratively): - be bound (compassed) with, hang about.

Well, who might that be?  Certainly not the atheists I'm surrounded by.

  He goes on to tell us--look here--you can communicate with them--They are not asleep in the earth--they are on the mountaintop--it's a city--with an innumerable company of angels, and there's the general assembly and church of the firstborn--and the spirits of just men made perfect--and God himself.

You think we're going to have to wait until some distant resurrection to experience this?

You can, not me, though.  This is mine now and forever.


22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


--Heb 12




 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 07:54:06 AM by Molly »

Offline Seth

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #88 on: September 26, 2009, 08:08:05 AM »
Quote from: Seth
Applying that to what we see in Hebrews 11: "these all died in faith not recieving the promises" that those are the cloud of witnesses (the RECORD bearers - the ones who testified but did not receive) it is reasonable that those who died did indeed bear record of what we have received and that they WILL receive when they are resurrected.

Yes, they are those who gave a good report in the OT.  Those who had faith.  You cannot have faith without Christ.  So, if you have faith, you have Christ by definition.

They didn't achieve the promises--but WE did.

They died in faith WITHOUT receiving the promise. The record they left of faith is the "cloud" we are surrounded by. I hope you don't mind me putting "cloud" in quotes, seeing as how we both know that its a metaphor, even if we disagree as to what it is a metaphor of.

The record was left by the patriarchs who are dead and that is the cloud of witnesses.

Quote
He goes on to tell us--look here--you can communicate with them--They are not asleep in the earth--they are on the mountaintop--it's a city--with an innumerable company of angels, and there's the general assembly and church of the firstborn--and the spirits of just men made perfect--and God himself.

You think we're going to have to wait until some distant resurrection to experience this?

You can't communicate with dead people, even if Bruce Willis is your therapist. They are asleep in the earth. They will be perfected together with us when we are resurrected.



Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #89 on: September 26, 2009, 08:59:45 AM »
NAS1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

How exactly should I read the red words?
I read it as when Jesus raised from the dead or returned to heaven He brought those that where asleep/dead with Him to Heave/Father.

1Th 4:14 For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him."

WW, you can't just cut a verse out of its context and build a theological construct from it like Jesus bringing back with Him immortal souls of dead saints who were playing volleyball with Him in Heaven until He returns.
It's possibly, a fact if you will, I see things out of context. But as I wrote a few message back I did read the other verses.
Plus I did read the red words. It's wrong to quote out of context. But it's also wrong to ignore the red words because they don't fit in what is understood from that context. For me there is a contradiction. Not in the Word but in my understanding.
And I highlighted the contradiction in red. That's different from  building theology around the red words. It's my attempt to align all words in that context....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #90 on: September 26, 2009, 11:33:52 AM »
2 Co 1:23 - Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare youI came not as yet unto Corinth.

 :cloud9: Thanks Seth........I never noticed that Paul was asking God for a record upon his soul before, which would be fruitless if it ceased to exist at death, as some claim. The soul is indeed the "record keeper" of the deeds of the body, and they are the great cloud of witnesses or "record keepers" that surround us. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Seth

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #91 on: September 26, 2009, 12:25:22 PM »
2 Co 1:23 - Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare youI came not as yet unto Corinth.

 :cloud9: Thanks Seth........I never noticed that Paul was asking God for a record upon his soul before, which would be fruitless if it ceased to exist at death, as some claim. The soul is indeed the "record keeper" of the deeds of the body, and they are the great cloud of witnesses or "record keepers" that surround us. Blessings....

The record keeper is not the soul, but God. The point of Hebrews 12:1 is that the record left by the now dead patriarchs is that they had faith. That is the record they left us.

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


Offline chuckt

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #92 on: September 26, 2009, 02:28:31 PM »
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.  

no worries no fear  :bgdance:
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Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #93 on: September 26, 2009, 02:52:05 PM »
Quote
You just don't get it do you? Repeat after me: "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." Say it till your voice turns horse. There is no verse in all the Bible that says saints are with Jesus right now. That is impossible. They must wait for His return to this earth and then they meet the Lord. It is that hard a concept?

Hi T :icon_flower:
 IF I MAY - maybe there things you DONT get Bud?, like we are not of this Forum to BROW beat or force feed ANYONE, lots could  be said of you , like us all,  AS IN theres somethings WE JUST DONT GET YET?

so Kindly Back off.

ty T :icon_flower:

Hey bud, we beat you in one war and we'll beat you in another so YOU back off  :laughing7:

Concerning Hebrews 12:1,2:
"1 This cloud of "witnesses" consists of those just enumerated, who witness to the life of faith. It has no reference to any who are watching the Hebrews. A witness is one who testifies, and it is the testimony of all the faithful, from Abel down, which constituted the moral atmosphere in which the Hebrews lived. Nevertheless, their popular sin was unbelief. Even as their fathers had witnessed the faith of Moses and saw the signs, yet were strewn along the wilderness for their lack of faith in God, so the Hebrews were prone to question the promises and to turn from the trials that lay along the path of faith.

"2 All the other examples of faith pale before the supreme Example. Even Abraham, the father of the faithful, failed once and again in the very virtue for which he is distinguished. But the Saviour, as a man, never faltered in His implicit confidence in God. He did always those things which pleased God without regard to the consequences to Himself. When His message was rejected, He acquiesced. Even though His God forsook Him in the hour of deepest need and sorest suffering, it did not shake His faith, for, at the very last, He committed His spirit into the Father's hands. And He alone, of all the faithful, has risen and received some reward for His faithfulness, for He has ascended to the right hand of God's throne. Such an example as this should be the most powerful of all incentives for the Hebrews to endure the trials of the way, and persevere to the end." Concordant Commentary

Just the very fact that people here continue to make statements leading me to believe the dead are alive is telling me they just don't get it. Maybe they just don't want to get it? Maybe the paganism they have adulterated with their Christianity is just too loveable to them to give up?

Against their paganism and demonic spiritism stands these verses:
Please print these verses out and make several copies. Tape one copy in front of you in your car, one for the middle of your bathroom mirror, one on the wall of your bathroom in front of you as you sit on the can and contemplate these anti-paganistic verses as regards the dead, oh and tape one in the middle of your television:

"Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die,
But the dead know nothing whatsoever;
There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."

Psa 115:17  The dead praise not the LORD,
 neither any that go down into silence
.

"All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor,
 for there is no doing or devising or knowledge or
 wisdom in the unseen where you are going" (Ecc.9:10).

 "Indeed the unseen cannot acclaim You, nor can death praise You;
 and those who descend into a crypt cannot look forward to Your faithfulness.
 The living! the living one! he is acclaiming You as I do today;
 the father makes known to his sons Your faithfulness" (Isa.38:18,19).


1 Tim.6:16 "[Christ] alone hath immortality"


So it is Scripturally impossible for Christ to have preached to dead people while He was dead.
Only in paganism and demonic spiritism is this possible.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #94 on: September 26, 2009, 02:55:14 PM »
You can't communicate with dead people, even if Bruce Willis is your therapist. They are asleep in the earth. They will be perfected together with us when we are resurrected.

 :thumbsup:
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #95 on: September 26, 2009, 04:56:01 PM »
Well, who might that be?  Certainly not the atheists I'm surrounded by.

  He goes on to tell us--look here--you can communicate with them--They are not asleep in the earth--they are on the mountaintop--it's a city--with an innumerable company of angels, and there's the general assembly and church of the firstborn--and the spirits of just men made perfect--and God himself.

You think we're going to have to wait until some distant resurrection to experience this?

You can, not me, though.  This is mine now and forever.

This is in direct opposition to Scripture. The only way to communicate with the dead is with demonic spiritism and even then, one is not really communicating with the dead but with familiar demonic spirits.

Remember, Molly, these verses:

"Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die,
But the dead know nothing whatsoever;
There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."

Psa 115:17  The dead praise not the LORD,
 neither any that go down into silence.

"All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor,
 for there is no doing or devising or knowledge or
 wisdom in the unseen where you are going" (Ecc.9:10).

 "Indeed the unseen cannot acclaim You, nor can death praise You;
 and those who descend into a crypt cannot look forward to Your faithfulness.
 The living! the living one! he is acclaiming You as I do today;
 the father makes known to his sons Your faithfulness" (Isa.38:18,19).

In light of the above verses, the question must be asked:

How are we to take Hebrews 12?
Does Hebrews 12 say anywhere we can communicate with dead people?

Since "no one has ascended into Heaven except He Who descended, The
Son of mankind who is in Heaven," how can there be dead saints with Him?

No, dear friend, it is Catholicism which is mixed with paganism which asserts
we can pray to dead saints. When Constantine, a Roman ruler became a "christian"
and made Christianity the state religion of Rome he amalgamated the pagain religions with the Christian religion and thus was born the Catholic church. When he built the first huge church building in Rome he had half of it devoted to the Christian religion and half devoted to the pagan religion. That is what people in politics try to do, they try to please everyone.

I pray God will give all of you the grace to get this paganistic idea of immortal souls out of your lives. The only way, the only truly christian way to meet the Lord is via resurrection of the dead. Paganism does away with this need. Christianity makes the stand that resurrection is vital to our faith.

Tony
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #96 on: September 26, 2009, 05:03:29 PM »
The record keeper is not the soul, but God. The point of Hebrews 12:1 is that the record left by the now dead patriarchs is that they had faith. That is the record they left us.

 :cloud9: So we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses/record keepers, ie. "Gods", are we? Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Doug

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #97 on: September 26, 2009, 05:53:02 PM »
The scripture speaks of spiritual tabernacles (or houses) that God is building for us to dwell in. Since they are spiritual they are not subject to decay, and they don't fall apart. Jesus said,

John 14:1-3
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Christ is preparing all of us for his kingdom. Our spiritual tabernacles, that we put on at the resurrection, are collectively called a holy city in Rev. 21:2.

Abraham and the prophets looked for a heavenly country, and a heavenly city.
   
Hebrews 11:16
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


The city is still being built. The wall of the city has twelve foundations, with the names of the twelve apostles written on them. The gates have the names of the twelve tribes of Israel written on them. Paul said,

2 Corinthians 5:1
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.


Paul also said "ye are God's building." And we are "labourers together with God." The foundation is Christ; Paul warned, "But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon."

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Wrong beliefs will get burned up in the fire.

Doug
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 06:05:41 PM by Doug »

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #98 on: September 26, 2009, 06:34:46 PM »
Quote from: Tony
The only way to communicate with the dead is with demonic spiritism and even then, one is not really communicating with the dead but with familiar demonic spirits.

Yes, I agree.  I'm not talking about seance  lol. 

I do enjoy seeing what each person believes, because it is so personal and interesting.

No one has yet told me how else to interpret Heb 12:22-24. Was he just talking through his hat? You are come unto mount Sion, he says.  That's not future, that's present.   It's not the only place such things are talked about.


11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

--Mat 8:11


Offline Seth

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #99 on: September 26, 2009, 06:49:54 PM »
The record keeper is not the soul, but God. The point of Hebrews 12:1 is that the record left by the now dead patriarchs is that they had faith. That is the record they left us.

 :cloud9: So we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses/record keepers, ie. "Gods", are we? Blessings....

Lol, I love you Card.  :HeartThrob:

Anyway, the witness they left is the faith they had so that WE should continue in the faith. The cloud of witnesses that surround us are in their tombs, just like David who is both dead and buried.

Hey, that's just how I see it. Love you Card, and you too Molly.  :HeartThrob: