Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?

[Molly]

Small interruption....
Is it possible that after the death of Jesus things changed regarding to soulsleep, death or what name you want to give it.
For me personally there is quite a lot of evidence in the OT about soulsleep.
But not so in the NT. Plus Jesus came with a very special task. So possible changes???

That's what I think.

We are already translated from death to life.  Or how else can you interpret...shall never die.

[WhiteWings]

Just a thought without much/any scriptual proof.
Jesus was a FirstFruit.
A harvest needs to be planted. -> Seeds -> OT dead people
According to (older) secular dictionaries vivify/quicken also has relation to plants starting to grow in the spring.
So I can see some parallels with plants and dead OT people.
 

[Cardinal]

  Yeah, it changed. Someone appeared with the keys to release them from it. And He has appeared, He is appearing, and He will appear. Blessings...

[Molly]

Just a thought without much/any scriptual proof.
Jesus was a FirstFruit.
A harvest needs to be planted. -> Seeds -> OT dead people
According to (older) secular dictionaries vivify/quicken also has relation to plants starting to grow in the spring.
So I can see some parallels with plants and dead OT people.
 

I think you could say that.  Except we are the barley harvest-the first harvest in the spring--and my impression from Hebrews is that they have to wait until the barley harvest is complete until they are brought in at the end of the age.  In other words, they are a different harvest.

Heb 11:40  God2316 having provided4265 some5100 better thing2909 for4012 us,2257 that2443 they without5565 us2257 should not3361 be made perfect.5048

[Doug]

We are already translated from death to life.  Or how else can you interpret...shall never die.

Abraham died. But Jesus said to the Jews,

Mark 12:26-27
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Evidently, while he awaits the resurrection, Abraham lives to God. It is as if he is asleep. And it is the same with David, Moses, and Elijah, Daniel, and all the prophets. They are the foundation of the church, along with the apostles, Eph. 2:20.

Doug

[Tony N]

Small interruption....
Is it possible that after the death of Jesus things changed regarding to soulsleep, death or what name you want to give it.
For me personally there is quite a lot of evidence in the OT about soulsleep.
But not so in the NT. Plus Jesus came with a very special task. So possible changes???

The only thing that has changed so far is that Jesus alone has immortality (1 Tim.6:16).
It is only when Christ comes back that "those who are Christ's" shall be vivified (1 Cor.15:23), then, after Christ quits reigning and all sovereignties, authorities and powers nullified and death abolished, the consummation order is vivified.

The term "soulsleep" is unscriptural and should not be part of our vocabulary.

Since the truth is, when a man dies, his spirit returns to God Who gave it, Christ could not possibly have preached to spirits of humans while He was dead or after He was vivified.

[Tony N]

Yeah, it changed. Someone appeared with the keys to release them from it. And He has appeared, He is appearing, and He will appear. Blessings...

Exactly! And the key I believe is vivification, immortality, incorruption. Christ alone has these now. In the future, we will put on immortality and incorruption

1Co 15:54 Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory."

This is all future.

[lookingup]

Quote from Molly:"We are already translated from death to life.  Or how else can you interpret...shall never die."

It never made sense to me either until i learned the truth about bad translations



            It comes back around to proper translation of the Scriptures. The following is an excerpt from an article from bibletruths.com:


 "They have in fact, translated some Scriptures to say the diametric opposite of what God has told us. Notice how the King James and many modern Bibles translate the following verse:
"And whosoever lives and believes in Me shall NEVER DIE. Believe you this?" (John 11:26).
Wait a minute; wait a minute; wait a minute! What, pray tell, is going on here?
God told Adam that if he sinned then he would be dying until he ultimately died. And we have Scripture on that. Paul informs us that all mankind has sinned, and that the wages of sin is death. Furthermore we are told by inspiration of God's Holy Spirit that ALL in Adam will die. Then we read a verse in the King James Bible which boldly states that those who believe in Christ (even though they too have sinned), "…will NEVER DIE."
God told Adam, "you shall SURELY DIE." The Serpent then said to Eve, "you shall NOT SURELY DIE." Does everyone agree that the serpent contradicted God? Does the serpent's statement agree or disagree with the statement of God? The serpent contradicts God, doesn't he? Yes, of course he does. This is extremely elementary. But… BUT, John 11:26 states in the King James, that whosoever believes in Jesus, "shall NEVER DIE." Now then, to whose statement does "shall NEVER DIE agree? Does it agree with God's statement "shall SURELY DIE," or with the serpent's statement, "shall NOT SURELY DIE?" Houston, we have a problem.
Did Jesus say one thing to Adam back in the Garden and then contradict Himself in His teaching of John 11:26? Does Jesus "change?" No. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and for ever" (Heb. 13:8). Not only does the serpent's statement contradict God's statement, but according to the King James, even Jesus Christ contradicts God's statement. Surely this cannot be. Remember all those statements of God regarding "adding to or taking from" the words of God? Well, I'm afraid the King James has done it again. Let's take a look at this phrase "shall never die" from John 11:26 in a Greek Interlinear:
If you have e-Sword, you can see that the word translated "never" is the translation of three Greek words, not just one. Does it really take three Greek words to represent our English word "never?" No it doesn't.
The Greek word oudeic means "not ever, none, nought" as in when Peter said to Jesus, "I will NEVER [#3762--oudeic] be offended" (Matt. 26:33). This word is translated "never" dozens of times in Scripture. However, in John 11:26 where we read "shall NEVER die," the word "never" is the singular word translation of three Greek words, not one of them being #3762, oudeic."
So what," you say? So maybe it behooves us to see just what Greek words God used in this verse, that's what. This is one of those huge translation errors. This verse as recorded in the King James flat out contradicts God's statement back in the Garden, that's why.
The word "never" in John 11:26 is translated from:
#3364 = oume, "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever."
#1519 = ice, "to, into, throughout, for."
#165 = aion, "age."
BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON
Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:
"…should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"…NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"…NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"…shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
For sure, "All have sinned… the wages of sin is death… in Adam all die."
However, those "in Christ… should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:
"…that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)
And that:
"all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).
Yes, we shall all die, but not for or through the eon. We will be raised and reign with Christ through the coming millennial eon (and beyond—"Know you not that we shall judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2).
And so it should be clear to all, that there is no word "never" in this Greek verse.
And oh how the translators hate to deal with this powerful little word aion in this verse, but they completely leave out. As anyone can plainly see, there are times when the translators just pretend that this little word, aion, isn't even there. Theologians and preachers really hate when I expose things like this. No, I mean they really, really hate it. This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul, thus contradicting God's own statement in Gen. 2:17, "you shall surely die."


I had never personaly realized the contradition of "never die" and what the Word tells us in Genesis until this was pointed out in this article

Gods' Love and peace
 

[Doug]

I think you could say that.  Except we are the barley harvest-the first harvest in the spring--and my impression from Hebrews is that they have to wait until the barley harvest is complete until they are brought in at the end of the age.  In other words, they are a different harvest.

Jesus referred to the "harvest" in at least two different ways. In one case, he applies it to people believing the gospel.

Matthew 9:36-38
36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

In another case, in the parable of the tares, he refers to the harvest at the end of the world.

Matthew 13:39
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

The scripture you quoted, Heb 11:40, seems to say the saints of the OT are to be together with us in the resurrection, not in a different one. IMO.

Doug

[Tony N]

"The spirits here spoken of are not the spirits of dead
men, but they are messengers, spirit beings, commonly
regarded as angelic. These are said to have been "stubborn"
in the days of Noah. That was a time when the patience of
God waited, for the irreverence of the ancient world had
risen to heights where it was defiant to God, and really
called for the deluge to end their insubjection to Him.
Noah became a herald of righteousness in the earth, her-
alding a judging by his building of the ark. Yet outside the
earth, there were beings charged with controls, of whom
we get brief glimpses in the Scriptures, yet who failed in
their service. By means of messengers, God carries out
His many beneficial activities in the heavens and earth.
Israel was inducted to the law on Sinai through messen-
gers (Heb.2:2; Acts 7:53). Messengers or spirits (some-
times referred to as saints; compare Deut.33:2 AV, "holy
ones" CV) also execute judging (Jude 15) and other duties.
In the period while Noah was constructing the ark, cer-
tain spirits, evidently charged with this judging, became
stubborn, resisting the execution of God's righteous judg-
ing of the earth; and instead they seem to have calumni-
ated higher authorities, These "sinning messengers" were
thrust into gloomy caverns and kept for chastening judging
(2 Pet.2:4,5). Due to their stubbornness, it was necessary
to guard Noah, for his salvation was involved because of
the activity of the stubborn messengers. To these "spirits
in jail," Christ heralds the triumph of His obedience; this
is said of Christ with reference to His resurrection, in the
words "being gone to the spirits in jail." Thus these spirits
become aware of Him, and that messengers and author-
ities and powers are subjected to Him." (A.E. Knoch, Unsearchable Riches, vol.55)

[Doug]

1 Peter 3:18-22 NIV
[18] For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, [19] through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison [20] who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, [21] and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [22] who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

By building the ark, Noah witnessed to the world that a great flood was to occur, or judgment. Peter said it was by the Spirit that Christ preached to "the spirits in prison." This shows there is a spiritual meaning to the building of the ark, and the flood.

According to Genesis, eight persons, together with the clean and unclean beasts, and birds, and creeping things, went into the ark, and after that, the flood came and destroyed the world.

Peter says baptism is a figure like the flood. The building of the ark pictures our salvation through Christ. Baptism pictures our death in Christ, and burial, and resurrection to a new life. Those who went onto the ark with Noah and his family represent the church today. These included both clean and unclean animals and birds; evidently the unclean creatures represent the Gentiles, as in Peter's vision of a vessel coming down from heaven, like a great sheet, with all sorts of creatures in it, in Acts 10.

Like the building of the ark, the building of the church witnesses to the world. Just as whatever was not on board the ark died, according to the gospel, whatever does not bring forth good fruit, and the works that are not of God, will perish in the judgment.

Matthew 15:13
But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

Luke 3:9
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

In my view, the heavens passing away with great noise has already happened, in the scientific revolution; the old cosmology of Peter's day has passed away.

Doug

[Molly]

The word "never" in John 11:26 is translated from:
#3364 = oume, "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever."
#1519 = ice, "to, into, throughout, for."
#165 = aion, "age."
BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON
Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:
"…should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"…NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"…NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"…shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
For sure, "All have sinned… the wages of sin is death… in Adam all die."
However, those "in Christ… should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:
"…that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)
And that:
"all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).

"not ever shall die to the age"--Does that make sense in English? 

Or this?--"…shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding."


"shall never" [die]

G3364
οὐ μή
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.


G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literallyor figuratively.


G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.


To me, that's saying, [you] shall never [unto eternity] [die.]

Why would I compare that to the serpent in the garden?  Jesus is doing a new thing.

I would rather compare it to other things that Jesus said.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

[but] "is passed" [from death unto life]

G3327
μεταβαίνω
metabainō
met-ab-ah'ee-no
From G3326 and the base of G939; to change place: - depart, go, pass, remove.



24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

--John 5

[Tony N]

Molly, they all died who believe Christ back then.

Joh 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who is beholding the Son and believing in Him may have life eonian, and I shall be raising him in the last day."

The resurrection from the dead was the beginning of the never die state.

[Seth]

"not ever shall die to the age"--Does that make sense in English?  

Absolutely. Shall not ever be dying into the age. What age?

Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the age to come aionios life.

Since the Bible proves that aionios life is knowledge of God, which is internal and that Christ is our life, saying that those who believe will not be dying in the "coming aion" makes perfect sense.

[Molly]

Molly, they all died who believe Christ back then.

Joh 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who is beholding the Son and believing in Him may have life eonian, and I shall be raising him in the last day."

The resurrection from the dead was the beginning of the never die state.

If I've already crossed over from death to life, why would I die again?

death to life to death to life?  What a rollercoaster.

My body might die and await the resurrection, but I won't.

My God is the God of the living.

That's what I believe. 

[WhiteWings]

Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the age to come aionios life.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Just a guess
The question is this: revelation is now or in the future?

[Seth]

Molly, they all died who believe Christ back then.

Joh 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who is beholding the Son and believing in Him may have life eonian, and I shall be raising him in the last day."

The resurrection from the dead was the beginning of the never die state.

If I've already crossed over from death to life, why would I die again?

death to life to death to life?  What a rollercoaster.

My body might die and await the resurrection, but I won't.

That's what I believe. 

You have passed from death to life regarding planting together in the likeness of Christ's death and resurrection: deliverance from sin. But you are still mortal.

[Molly]

Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the age to come aionios life.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Just a guess
The question is this: revelation is now or in the future?

That's the rest of the dead.

Not me.

Yes, it's now.

[Seth]

Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the age to come aionios life.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Just a guess
The question is this: revelation is now or in the future?

It is, was, and will be. But use of Revelation as plain teaching is dubious. 

[Molly]

You have passed from death to life regarding planting together in the likeness of Christ's death and resurrection: deliverance from sin. But you are still mortal.

You're parsing words now, like a lawyer.  But my lawyer is the Judge.  Yes, I am immortal, right now.  And, he will never leave or forsake me.

If I've died and resurrected with him, what more is there to say?

[WhiteWings]

Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the age to come aionios life.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Just a guess
The question is this: revelation is now or in the future?

It is

So basicly any believer that dies can be instantly resurrected.

, was, and will be. But use of Revelation as plain teaching is dubious. 

Or not.... 

I've seen this topic coming by before. No answers and no agreement... Oh well does it really matter?

[Seth]

You have passed from death to life regarding planting together in the likeness of Christ's death and resurrection: deliverance from sin. But you are still mortal.

You're parsing words now, like a lawyer.  But my lawyer is the Judge.  Yes, I am immortal, right now.  And, he will never leave or forsake me.

If I've died and resurrected with him, what more is there to say?

Because your quotation of passing from death to life, contextually is related to the planting together in LIKENESS of Christ's death and resurrection, not in the literal.

Therefore, when it is talking about the likeness of Christ's death, it isn't talking about the literal. That is how mortals can be delivered from sin, and still be mortal.

Also, can you refrain from personal insults? Thanks.

[Molly]

You have passed from death to life regarding planting together in the likeness of Christ's death and resurrection: deliverance from sin. But you are still mortal.

You're parsing words now, like a lawyer.  But my lawyer is the Judge.  Yes, I am immortal, right now.  And, he will never leave or forsake me.

If I've died and resurrected with him, what more is there to say?

Because your quotation of passing from death to life, contextually is related to the planting together in LIKENESS of Christ's death and resurrection, not in the literal.

Therefore, when it is talking about the likeness of Christ's death, it isn't talking about the literal. That is how mortals can be delivered from sin, and still be mortal.

Also, can you refrain from personal insults? Thanks.

Saying you are like a lawyer is an insult?  I guess maybe it is, sorry.

We just disagree, that's all.  Plus, I have no idea what you are saying.  It makes no sense. [hence the reference to legalese].

If I have died and resurrected with Christ, that's it.  It's finished.  I already know that I have consciousness outside of this body.

[Seth]

Saying you are like a lawyer is an insult?  I guess maybe it is, sorry.

It seemed so. It just seemed negative, like I look at things lawerlike, which suggests that I'm soulless. If you didn't mean it negatively, it's all good. It's all good anyway, I just like having conversations where it doesn't go there. 

We just disagree, that's all.  Plus, I have no idea what you are saying.  It makes no sense. [hence the reference to legalese].

If I have died and resurrected with Christ, that's it.  It's finished.  I already know that I have consciousness outside of this body.

We discussed this before and you did indicate that you did understand what I was saying, whether agreed or disagreed. I haven't changed from then in the things I was saying. What I had been saying is that Romans 6 speaks about being planted together in the likeness of Christ's death and resurrection (meaning that deliverance from sin is passing from death to life figuratively with physical death being an illustration). This means that we can "pass from death to life" being delivered from sin, and still LITERALLY die as mortals and LITERALLY be resurrected. It's not parsing words. It's acknowledging the context.

 I am referring to this: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6756.msg74659#msg74659

In any case, we can just agree to disagree.

[WhiteWings]

^NAS1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

How exactly should I read the red words?
I read it as when Jesus raised from the dead or returned to heaven He brought those that where asleep/dead with Him to Heave/Father.