Author Topic: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?  (Read 49324 times)

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martincisneros

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2009, 04:11:04 AM »
Rephaim the offspring of two species? Since when do spirits have sex organs to procreate? The angels are neither marrying nor given in marriage.
In the resurrection the angels are neither marrying nor given in marriage. The resurrection is one brief, not even to be compared to an age or time, just a little sliver of time. They were asking Him about "in the resurrection," not about the all in all world, since the increase of His Kingdom shall know no end. And the question didn't even cover the duration of the reign of Christ after the resurrection. It's a presupposition with regards to flesh and blood, a tiny bit of a misreading of 1Corinthians 15, and viewing things in that limited context and from the standpoint that during the resurrection, ain't nobody getting their jollies! And as far as spirits having sex organs, well, actually...never mind...I won't go there...other than to say...are you kidding me? The spirit world created everything kinky you've ever heard of!

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2009, 04:58:43 AM »

Luk 23:42-43  and he said to Jesus, `Remember me, lord, when thou mayest come in thy reign;'  (43)  and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
 
The idea of Jesus playing poker with the dead sounds like a sitcom to me...."Pair A DICE?" :msealed:
 
   It is easy to make confident assertions and ridicule other positions, I prefer a slightly more civil approach. I am not asserting that my view is absolutely correct. I am saying there are other scriptures that need to be considered in evidence, because man's logic is fallible.

1Sa 28:14-19  And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.  (15)  And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.  (16)  Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?  (17)  And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:  (18)  Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.  (19)  Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

The dissolution of the soul at death may not such an obvious established fact. Unless Jesus was euphemizing to the thief on the cross and in this portion in Samuel, Samuel was a demon, which I have heard some say( but the verses do not support without wresting them) there are other evidences to consider. I would never get into a hostile debate about this issue, but I find it an interesting discussion.

If we want to assert positively that all the uses of rapha refer to rephaim rather than "the dead" there is also a lot of scholarly disagreement about that. The word is used in many places besides Isaiah 14 and the context doesn t support using rapha always as Rephaim.  It appears to be a common word in Hebrew for ghosts. Also regardless of the usage of rapha, in many places scripture in context may agree that the dead will wake and wait sleeping in Sheol, which is "under the earth".(Is 26:19; Psalm 88:10)

    We can make too much of the word "death". Adam "died" but he walked around for nearly a 1000 years after he "died" because death is a state of being separated from God. "He that believes in me has passed from death into life."
 David "fell on sleep" and saw corruption, Christ saw no corruption because death could not hold Him. He tasted death -the pain of bodily dying and separation from God- for everyman. His faith triumphed during that separation.

Also "Sleeping" and "waking" are terms routinely used for death in the OT and NT. Sleep is a state of being, not the absence of it, and it appears Samuel was wakened from it.

If the soul is dissolved upon death, how was the thief to accompany Jesus in "paradise".

Also, the word "diokaiov" transliterated "dikaios" from Hebrews 12, the spirits of "the righteous" made perfect is used throughout scripture to refer to men(29 out of 32 times in the gospels, the other three to the Just One, Christ). It appears to me from studying the use of the word in the rest of scripture, "the righteous" refers to men.
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Offline Cardinal

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2009, 05:08:01 AM »
 :cloud9:  :thumbsup: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Seth

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2009, 05:43:56 AM »
4And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

 15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

-------

If Saul was brought up, where was he ascend from? Where does it say in here that Saul was a soul without a body? This story reminds me of Lazarus.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2009, 06:17:23 AM »
 :cloud9: Why is it, that it was assumed among the churches that the soul and the spirit of man are the same? It has to be they assumed this, else why would they only see that the spirit ascends back to the One that sent it, but the soul.......? Does what? What is death as it relates to the soul, not just the spirit?

Death has implications for not just the corporeal body. These are things that need to be thought out and taken to the Lord with for clarification, just as UR was hidden by the mainstream churches. We came out of Babylon, but all Babylon did not come out of us, in an instant. Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2009, 06:33:08 AM »
The soul yearns for its lover!

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2009, 06:50:26 AM »
 :cloud9: Amen, it does, and love is stronger than death. Blessings......
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Seth

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2009, 06:56:25 AM »
:cloud9: Why is it, that it was assumed among the churches that the soul and the spirit of man are the same? It has to be they assumed this, else why would they only see that the spirit ascends back to the One that sent it, but the soul.......? Does what? What is death as it relates to the soul, not just the spirit?

Death has implications for not just the corporeal body. These are things that need to be thought out and taken to the Lord with for clarification, just as UR was hidden by the mainstream churches. We came out of Babylon, but all Babylon did not come out of us, in an instant. Blessings...

I agree, these are things that need to be thought out and taken to the Lord. Amen to that.  :thumbsup:

It's worth noting from my own perspective though that Babylon taught me that nobody ever really dies, especially not the One who sacrificed his very own life for me.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2009, 02:20:32 PM »
Dear eaglesway, that was not really Samuel but a familiar spirit. Saul never saw Samuel but the witch of Endor did (in her own mind). This is why God is against going to these kinds of people is because they don't really raise the dead but it is all about evil spirits.

Likewise, when the three disciples saw Christ and Moses and Elijah on the mount. They did not really see Moses and Elijah as to their flesh but it was just a vision. Jesus told them to tell no one of the vision. When Peter saw all the unclean animals coming out of the sky in Acts, they were not really there in the flesh but it was a vision.

The thief on the cross did not go to Paradise THAT day Christ and he died. Jesus said: I say to you today, with me you will be in the Paradise.
No, friend, Jesus and the thief were not playing hide-and-seek in Paradise the day they died or checkers. It was a real death, a real sacrifice. Jesus was dead . . . dead . . . dead for three days. The thief is still dead. The Paradise will come when Jesus sets up His kingdom.

As to Rapha being ghosts? I did a study just now on Strongs # 7496 and not one place can I find it used of ghosts. It is always used of the dead in the Authorised Version.

Dear eaglesway, you also state that "Adam died yet he still walked around." But the Hebrew says: "to die shall you be dying." It is the process of dying. And God explained what that meant by saying this: Gen 3:19 "In the sweat of your face shall you eat your bread, till your return to the ground, for from it are you taken, for soil you are, and to soil are you returning." The dying was and is a process. The King James says "even as in Adam all died" but "died" is not in the complete form. It should be "even as in Adam all are dying." It is a process which continues till it eventuates in total death.

Tony


Luk 23:42-43  and he said to Jesus, `Remember me, lord, when thou mayest come in thy reign;'  (43)  and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
 
The idea of Jesus playing poker with the dead sounds like a sitcom to me...."Pair A DICE?" :msealed:
 
   It is easy to make confident assertions and ridicule other positions, I prefer a slightly more civil approach. I am not asserting that my view is absolutely correct. I am saying there are other scriptures that need to be considered in evidence, because man's logic is fallible.

1Sa 28:14-19  And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.  (15)  And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.  (16)  Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?  (17)  And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:  (18)  Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.  (19)  Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

The dissolution of the soul at death may not such an obvious established fact. Unless Jesus was euphemizing to the thief on the cross and in this portion in Samuel, Samuel was a demon, which I have heard some say( but the verses do not support without wresting them) there are other evidences to consider. I would never get into a hostile debate about this issue, but I find it an interesting discussion.

If we want to assert positively that all the uses of rapha refer to rephaim rather than "the dead" there is also a lot of scholarly disagreement about that. The word is used in many places besides Isaiah 14 and the context doesn t support using rapha always as Rephaim.  It appears to be a common word in Hebrew for ghosts. Also regardless of the usage of rapha, in many places scripture in context may agree that the dead will wake and wait sleeping in Sheol, which is "under the earth".(Is 26:19; Psalm 88:10)

    We can make too much of the word "death". Adam "died" but he walked around for nearly a 1000 years after he "died" because death is a state of being separated from God. "He that believes in me has passed from death into life."
 David "fell on sleep" and saw corruption, Christ saw no corruption because death could not hold Him. He tasted death -the pain of bodily dying and separation from God- for everyman. His faith triumphed during that separation.

Also "Sleeping" and "waking" are terms routinely used for death in the OT and NT. Sleep is a state of being, not the absence of it, and it appears Samuel was wakened from it.

If the soul is dissolved upon death, how was the thief to accompany Jesus in "paradise".

Also, the word "diokaiov" transliterated "dikaios" from Hebrews 12, the spirits of "the righteous" made perfect is used throughout scripture to refer to men(29 out of 32 times in the gospels, the other three to the Just One, Christ). It appears to me from studying the use of the word in the rest of scripture, "the righteous" refers to men.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 03:29:56 PM by Tony N »
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does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline chuckt

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2009, 05:21:45 PM »
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If the soul is dissolved upon death, how was the thief to accompany Jesus in "paradise".

To day i tell you in paradise with me you will be....

NO TIME FRAME!!

we know 100%  the soul of jesus was in sheol not paradise, paradise is the third heaven!


chuckt

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Offline Seth

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2009, 06:48:35 PM »
Chuckt: here's proof of what you say.

Mark 10:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life (psuche - SOUL) a ransom for many.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2009, 07:57:56 PM »
I want to reiterate, I find this an interesting discussion, I am not trying to set doctrine for anyone, but I am being forthright with what I see.


The fact of where paradise is or isn't is beside the point of Jesus' statement to the thief on the cross, which runs contrary to soul dissolution upon physical death. The following scripture seems to corroborate this.

Eph 4:8-10  wherefore, he saith, `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' --  (9)  and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth?  (10)  he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things--

"The lower parts of the earth" is very similar to passages describing Sheoul in the OT

Psa 63:9  But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.

Also similar to "under the earth" from Phillipians 2:10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
 
Why the distinction "under the earth"

The idea that Samuel was a familiar spirit, which I alluded to in my post(does any body read before they respond?)
is a possibility, but I believe the narrator would have indicated this.

I think it is more likely the narrator knew exactly what was happening and told it as it happened. The narrator says "Samuel said, Why have you disturbed me", which lends some weight to the soul sleeping under the earth awaiting resurrection. The narrator says the witch was shocked to see Samuel. The word of prophecy that Samuel delivered was specific and fulfilled. Now maybe God announces His plans to familiar spirits, maybe not.

Jon 2:2-9  And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.  (3)  For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.  (4)  Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.  (5)  The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.  (6)  I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.  (7)  When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.  (8)  They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.  (9)  But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.

The verses in Jonah is not by any means empirical evidence, but I see it as an accurate prophetic picture of the trial of Christ, three days and nights in the "belly of the whale"- the sign of Jonah.

Psa 22:12-24  Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.  (13)  They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.  (14)  I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.  (15)  My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.  (16)  For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.  (17)  I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.  (18)  They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.  (19)  But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.  (20)  Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.  (21)  Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.  (22)  I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.  (23)  Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.  (24)  For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

I believe death tried to hold Jesus, even as Satan strove with Michael over the body of Moses, but Jesus, separated from God, nevertheless trusted God and His faith, not being stained by sin, left no grasp for the enemy,(the prince of this world comes but has nothing in me) who formerly held the keys to death and the grave. I believe He endured a struggle in the lower parts of the earth that involved breaking into the strong man's house and plundering it, the gates of Sheoul could not prevail against Him.

1Co 2:6-8  Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:  (7)  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:  (8)  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

If the strong bulls of Bashan had known, as they gaped upon Him with their mouths, what he was going to do, they would not have crucified Him.

Presented as Evidence in the Balance, John
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Offline chuckt

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2009, 08:34:32 PM »
Quote
The fact of where paradise is or isn't is beside the point of Jesus' statement to the thief on the cross, which runs contrary to soul dissolution upon physical death. The following scripture seems to corroborate this.

you must read it in the greek!

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/luk23.pdf

it literally says:

"" i am saying today in paradise you will be with me"""


NO TIME LINE, and scripture MUST interprete scripture:

The Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades are synonymous in meaning.

And here is the proof from the Scriptures and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the Hebrew sheol and the Greek hades are identical in meaning:

Acts 2:27: "Because You will not leave My soul in hell [Gk: hades], neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption" is quoted from:

Psalm 16:10: "For You will not leave My soul in hell [Heb: sheol]; neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption."

And so the inspiration of the Spirit of God proves that the Greek word hades is the right and proper translation of the Hebrew word sheol.


His soul went to the UNSEEN.  i have NO idea what this means ""'soul dissolution""

peace
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Offline Seth

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2009, 08:46:16 PM »
The fact of where paradise is or isn't is beside the point of Jesus' statement to the thief on the cross, which runs contrary to soul dissolution upon physical death. The following scripture seems to corroborate this.

Jesus' statement can be understood several ways. The way which corroborates scripture is probably the better one. I don't believe that the interpretation that places the thief in paradise with Jesus on that very day, before Christ was resurrected and ascended does that very well at all.


Quote
Eph 4:8-10  wherefore, he saith, `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' --  (9)  and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth?  (10)  he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things--

"The lower parts of the earth" is very similar to passages describing Sheoul in the OT


See, if you look at the entire context of Ephesians 4, it is talking about the creation and formation of the church as a manifestation of the working of the Spirit. So the question is when did Jesus lead captivity captive and give gifts to men, while he was dead? I don't beleive so.

He ascended. What does it mean that he ascended, but that he was once below? So ascension happens UPON HAVING already descended. That's the point. Christ was raised after he was lowered. He died and was resurrected. After being resurrected he ascended.

HOW does Jesus lead captivity into captivity? Romans 6 explains that very well: by Spiritual baptism. Christ said that he would said a comforter, but that he must first ascend to be with his Father, then he would send the comforter, which turned out to be himself. That is what it means that he "gave gifts to men."

Offline willieH

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2009, 09:43:37 PM »
willieH: Hi brother Seth! :hithere:

And you too brother Tony! :hithere:

Tony I fully agree. Jesus was dead for three days and was resurrected FROM the dead on the third day.

As do I!  :thumbsup:  ---> :2thumbs:

AMEN!  CHRIST ...died... and was placed in a tomb, in which His inactive, and LIFE-LESS body lie for 3 days and 3 nights...

Preaching to DEAD people, is not DEATH... Preaching is a LIVING activity, and even then... Preaching the GOSPEL is conveying WORDS of LIFE... DEATH is not involved with the preaching of the LIVING WORD of GOD...

DEATH is LIFE-LESS-NESS... for whoever is within its parameters including God's only begotten Son, ...JESUS...  :dontknow:

...willieH

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2009, 09:51:47 PM »
The fact of where paradise is or isn't is beside the point of Jesus' statement to the thief on the cross, which runs contrary to soul dissolution upon physical death. The following scripture seems to corroborate this.

Eph 4:8-10  wherefore, he saith, `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' --  (9)  and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth?  (10)  he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things--

Dear eaglesway, grace and peace to you bro.
If Christ and the thief went to paradise when they died then you would have to contradict too many scriptures concerning death and the state of the dead. The placing of periods and commas by the translator must be done to accord with the rest of Scripture. It is either "I say to you, Today you will be with me in Paradise" or "I say to you today, You will be with Me in Paradise." I believe the latter is in harmony with the rest of Scripture. "The dead know nothing."

The phrase: "Having gone up on high he led captive captivity," does not mean Christ took the dead saints with Him to heaven. After Christ ascended into heaven Peter told the Israelites: Act 2:29 "Men! Brethren! Allow me to say to you with boldness concerning the patriarch David, that he deceases also and was entombed, and his tomb is among us until this day." So why didn't Christ take David and all the other saints? They are still awaiting the resurrection.

If others ascended with Christ then why did John years later say: "And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven" (Joh 3:13)?

Quote
"The lower parts of the earth" is very similar to passages describing Sheoul in the OT

Psa 63:9  But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.

Also similar to "under the earth" from Phillipians 2:10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
 
Why the distinction "under the earth"

It could be in Phillippians 2:10 that those under the earth are living in subterrannean cities or caves such as those in Heb.11:38 who hid in caves and holes in the earth. Even today there are vast underground cities built to house officials and senators of the U.S.A. in case of nuclear attack.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the magnates, and the captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every slave and freeman, hide themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains."

The above ones are under the earth and will one day praise the Lord.

Quote
The idea that Samuel was a familiar spirit, which I alluded to in my post(does any body read before they respond?)
is a possibility, but I believe the narrator would have indicated this.

I think it is more likely the narrator knew exactly what was happening and told it as it happened. The narrator says "Samuel said, Why have you disturbed me", which lends some weight to the soul sleeping under the earth awaiting resurrection. The narrator says the witch was shocked to see Samuel. The word of prophecy that Samuel delivered was specific and fulfilled. Now maybe God announces His plans to familiar spirits, maybe not.

Quote
Jon 2:2-9  And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.  (3)  For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.  (4)  Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.  (5)  The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.  (6)  I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.  (7)  When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.  (8)  They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.  (9)  But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.

The verses in Jonah is not by any means empirical evidence, but I see it as an accurate prophetic picture of the trial of Christ, three days and nights in the "belly of the whale"- the sign of Jonah.

It is "For even as Jonah was in the bowel of the sea monster three days and three nights, thus will the Son of Mankind be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights." (Mat 12:40).
Jesus was not saying that just as Jonah was in a belly of a fish all wet with saliva so the Son would be in the tomb all wet with saliva. Neither was Jesus saying that just as Noah was alive in the fish for three days so Jesus would be alive for three days in a tomb.

Quote
Psa 22:12-24  Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.  (13)  They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.  (14)  I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.  (15)  My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.  (16)  For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.  (17)  I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.  (18)  They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.  (19)  But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.  (20)  Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.  (21)  Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.  (22)  I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.  (23)  Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.  (24)  For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

I believe death tried to hold Jesus, even as Satan strove with Michael over the body of Moses, but Jesus, separated from God, nevertheless trusted God and His faith, not being stained by sin, left no grasp for the enemy,(the prince of this world comes but has nothing in me) who formerly held the keys to death and the grave. I believe He endured a struggle in the lower parts of the earth that involved breaking into the strong man's house and plundering it, the gates of Sheoul could not prevail against Him.

The depths of the earth just mean the tomb or grave. It does not mean Jesus went into the very center of the earth.

Quote
1Co 2:6-8  Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:  (7)  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:  (8)  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

If the strong bulls of Bashan had known, as they gaped upon Him with their mouths, what he was going to do, they would not have crucified Him.

Presented as Evidence in the Balance, John

True, but this does not prove Christ went to dead people while He was dead and preached to them. That would be like preaching to a rock. "The dead know nothing."

Ecc 9:10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor, For there is no doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom In the unseen (or Hades) where you are going."
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline willieH

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2009, 09:56:06 PM »
The fact of where paradise is or isn't is beside the point of Jesus' statement to the thief on the cross, which runs contrary to soul dissolution upon physical death. The following scripture seems to corroborate this.

"SOUL DISSOLUTION"? -- Whaaaaaaaaaaaatizdiz? :omg:

Please refer us to the Scripture which founds your proposal of -- "SOUL DISSOLUTION"...  :dontknow:

...willieH



Offline Seth

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2009, 10:10:00 PM »
Phillipians 2:10

Those "under the earth" WILL bow. Everyone who was dead will be vivified. What do you think they will do after vivification? Bow and confess? I think so.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2009, 01:46:37 AM »
Willie.....read the post, I was not proposing the dissolution of the soul, I was refuting it.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2009, 01:41:03 PM »
I think what people mean by the dissolution of the soul is this:

When we die, "the spirit returns to God Who gave it."

The body returns to the soil, "for soil you are and to soil shall you return."

The soul, being the **result** of spirit and flesh coming together to create sensations, ceases to exist once the spirit departs the body.

  • God formed Adam from the soil.
  • God breathed into Adam the spirit or breath of life
  • Adam **became** a living soul.

Tony
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Doug

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2009, 04:07:38 PM »
Isaiah wrote: "The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined." [Isaiah 9:2]

Matthew quoted from this prophecy in Matthew 4:12-17. Who does not have to face death? All dwell in the "shadow of death" because we are mortal. This "great light" will shine upon every person!

Matthew showed that the gospel is a light for mankind on the subject of death. From the death and resurrection of Jesus, and his statements about death we can understand a great deal. Jesus said as Jonah was in the belly of the fish, he would remain in the grave for 3 days. Jonah referred to being in the fish as "sheol."

Jonah 2:2
Out of the belly of hell [sheol] cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Sheol has very much the same meaning as the Greek word Hades, that is the unseen, or the grave, but Hades was also the name of a Greek deity, and has mythological associations. Jonah was in "sheol" while in the belly of the fish, and he prayed to God, and God saved him. He was a type of all those who end up in sheol, because he was saved out of it.
   
When Jesus was in the grave, he was in sheol. Jonah could not go anywhere else, while he was in the fish. He went where the fish went. And Jesus, in the grave, could not go anywhere else either.
   
Jesus was restored to life by a resurrection. It is the same for everyone; when we die, we need to be raised up from the grave.

John 5:28
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation [or judgment].

The idea of immortality of the soul was a doctrine of Plato. In the early Christian era, it was merged with the teachings of the apostles by church fathers, who admired Plato. They are among the false teachers foretold by the apostle Peter, in 2 Pet. 2. Because of their doctrines, the great light of the gospel of Christ was obscured.

IMO, Plato's doctrine of the immortality of the soul is one of the "tares" sown by the enemy in the parable of the tares in Mat. 13.

For those interested, there is a more detailed discussion in 4 chapters from E. White's Life in Christ. 

Life in Christ
by Edward White
Elliot Stock, 62 Paternoster Row, London
1875

CHAPTER VI.
On the Orthodox Doctrine on the Nature and Destiny of Mankind

CHAPTER VII.
On the Possibility that Christendom has Erred on the Doctrine of Human Destiny

CHAPTER VIII.
On the Immortality of the Soul

CHAPTER IX.
On the Original Constitution of Man

http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/white.html

Incidentally, Winchester's Dialogues are available here: 

http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/winchester.html


There is a very famous prophecy, which foretold the corruption of the gospel message, that occurred early in the history of the church. The gospel Jesus taught is called a great light, and in Genesis 1, the sun is also identified as a great light; the sun represents the gospel. It clothes the woman in Rev. 12:1. Peter quoted the prophecy of Joel in Acts 2, when the disciples received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:20-21
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The doctrine of the immortality of the soul turned the sun to darkness, as it makes a resurrection seem quite unnecessary. Why would anyone need to be raised from the dead, if his soul remained conscious after death?

Jesus spoke of death as sleep, because the resurrection is like awaking from sleep. The gospel teaches our need for a resurrection. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" [John 11:24-26].
   
When we believe the gospel we can be assured of awaking from death, as if from sleep. Most who believe in the immortality of the soul wonder why a resurrection is even needed. They are confused, and in darkness.

John identified Jesus as the true light, which enlightens every man. "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." [John 1:9]

Doug

Offline chuckt

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2009, 07:39:32 PM »
Quote
Sheol has very much the same meaning as the Greek word Hades

good post doug.

HADES IS THE PROPER..definition of hebrew sheol. albeit, it already had meaning behind it not biblical but steming from mythology.

i like this:



HADES

NEXT to the Old Testament Hebrew word SHEOL, this New Testament Greek word,

HADES, is one of the most important.

    Our present object and desire is to discover the way in which the Holy Spirit uses it;

and to find out the sense in which He intends us to understand it. Apart from this, all

our study of the word is useless.

   It matters not what men may say, whether Pagan or Christian. Heathen Mythology,

Human Tradition, and Christian Theology have no place in this study. They will lead

us astray instead of guiding us : they will hinder us rather than help us.

   The Old Testament has one advantage over the New. Its Hebrew words are the words

of the Holy Spirit  and all knowledge of Hebrew starts with the Hebrew Bible. It is the

 fountain head of that language; and  there is no previous Hebrew literature behind it.

   But when we come to the New Testament, the case is entirely different. Here, the

Holy Spirit takes up human words which had been used among the Greeks for centuries,

and had already acquired senses, and meanings, and usages; human in their development

as they were human in their origin. [MORE]


http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_death_soul_hell_menu.htm


and from ray smith:


And here is the proof from the Scriptures and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the Hebrew sheol and the Greek hades are identical in meaning:

Acts 2:27: "Because You will not leave My soul in hell [Gk: hades], neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption" is quoted from:

Psalm 16:10: "For You will not leave My soul in hell [Heb: sheol]; neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption."

And so the inspiration of the Spirit of God proves that the Greek word hades is the right and proper translation of the Hebrew word sheol.


God bless
chuckt
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Offline willieH

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2009, 12:13:33 AM »
Willie.....read the post, I was not proposing the dissolution of the soul, I was refuting it.

As far as I can see, ..."Soul dissolution" is YOUR terminology...  :dontknow:

Used by you HERE:

The dissolution of the soul at death may not such an obvious established fact.

and HERE:

The fact of where paradise is or isn't is beside the point of Jesus' statement to the thief on the cross, which runs contrary to soul dissolution upon physical death. The following scripture seems to corroborate this.

There is no such thing as "soul dissolution" and no one else has mentioned it but YOU, so what is there to "refute"?

Are you refuting yourself and your own terminology? ("soul dissolution")

There is more to say about your viewpoint, and I will try to get to it later, although Seth, TonyN, ChuckT and others have firmly outlined the truth in this matter.

JESUS did NOT go to "paradise" at DEATH, He went to a Grave in which He spend 3 days and 3 nights... DEAD...

As Seth noted, the "THIEF" is STILL, ...DEAD! :nod:

...willieH

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2009, 08:18:46 AM »
I notice willieH knows right where that bone was buried again!

It's so good to read what you all post, how able you are to discuss the Word of God.  It's not boring like those topics the "Christian Media" operators shape to please the largest donor base.  Often I find there's instruction here, even for those who seem to have gone over what has been revealed about a matter.

Thank you all for being who you are, that special perspective of God comming into revelation.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2009, 08:37:57 AM »
Small interruption....
Is it possible that after the death of Jesus things changed regarding to soulsleep, death or what name you want to give it.
For me personally there is quite a lot of evidence in the OT about soulsleep.
But not so in the NT. Plus Jesus came with a very special task. So possible changes???
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...