Author Topic: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?  (Read 46985 times)

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Offline Tony N

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Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« on: September 21, 2009, 08:45:08 PM »
Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?

If He did, this would contradict too many scriptures. The dead know nothing. (The bible tells me so.)

So what does this mean:

1 Peter 3:18-22 CLV  seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,  (19)  in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,  (20)  He heralds to those [spirits] once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water,  (21)  the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,  (22)  Who is at God's right hand, being gone into heaven, messengers and authorities and powers being subjected to Him."

1. Notice, it does not say He went to dead humans and preached to them.
2. Notice, it does not say He preached to anyone but "heralds".
3. Notice, the heralding was not to humans but to spirits.
4. Notice, He did not do this WHILE dead but after He was vivified (brought back to life).

I believe the spirits which were incarcerated were stubborn to what they were supposed to be doing during that wicked time. It is possible they were trying to wreck Noah's building of the ark so God had to jail them. Christ, after He was vivified, went to them and heralded to them most likely that He is now conquered all.

And what about this verse:

1 Peter 4:1-6 CLV  Christ, then, having suffered for our sakes in flesh, you also arm yourselves with the same thought, for he who is suffering in flesh has ceased his sins,  (2)  2 by no means still to spend the rest of his lifetime in the flesh in human desires, but in the will of God."  (3)  For sufficient is the time which has passed by to have effected the intention of the nations, having gone on in wantonness, lusts, debauches, revelries, drinking bouts, and illicit idolatries,  (4)  while they are thinking it strange of you not to race together into the same puddle of profligacy, calumniating you;"  (5)  who shall be rendering an account to Him Who is holding Himself in readiness to judge the living and the dead.  (6)  For for this an evangel is brought to the dead also, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, yet should be living according to God, in spirit."

"The dead" that the evangel was brought to were the same ones in Jesus' day when Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead." They were not literally dead but they were the ones dead to God . . . the ones not following Christ.

Those dead [to God] the evangel went to were to be judged (set straight) as to their lifestyles as revealed in verses 3 & 4 above. If they were alive [to God] they would not have been involved in those bad things. So the evangel went to them "so that they should be living to God, in spirit."

So, did Christ go to dead people while He was dead? No.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2009, 09:03:04 PM »
Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?

Quote
"The dead" that the evangel was brought to were the same ones in Jesus' day when Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead." They were not literally dead but they were the ones dead to God . . . the ones not following Christ.

Quote
So, did Christ go to dead people while He was dead? No.

While Jesus was dead in what form did He preach?
Natural body? -> guess not otherwise He would have risen much earlier as 3 days.
Spiritual body? -> Noone recognised Him?

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2009, 09:17:59 PM »
Quote
He heralds to those [spirits] once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water

'brought safely through the water' [in the ark.  What does the water signify in this verse, such that they would need to be inside the ark to make it safely through?  Does this have a symbolic meaning?

Offline claypot

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2009, 09:19:56 PM »
Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?

If He did, this would contradict too many scriptures. The dead know nothing. (The bible tells me so.)

So what does this mean:

1 Peter 3:18-22 CLV  seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,  (19)  in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,  (20)  He heralds to those [spirits] once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water,  (21)  the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,  (22)  Who is at God's right hand, being gone into heaven, messengers and authorities and powers being subjected to Him."

1. Notice, it does not say He went to dead humans and preached to them.
2. Notice, it does not say He preached to anyone but "heralds".
3. Notice, the heralding was not to humans but to spirits.
4. Notice, He did not do this WHILE dead but after He was vivified (brought back to life).

I believe the spirits which were incarcerated were stubborn to what they were supposed to be doing during that wicked time. It is possible they were trying to wreck Noah's building of the ark so God had to jail them. Christ, after He was vivified, went to them and heralded to them most likely that He is now conquered all.

And what about this verse:

1 Peter 4:1-6 CLV  Christ, then, having suffered for our sakes in flesh, you also arm yourselves with the same thought, for he who is suffering in flesh has ceased his sins,  (2)  2 by no means still to spend the rest of his lifetime in the flesh in human desires, but in the will of God."  (3)  For sufficient is the time which has passed by to have effected the intention of the nations, having gone on in wantonness, lusts, debauches, revelries, drinking bouts, and illicit idolatries,  (4)  while they are thinking it strange of you not to race together into the same puddle of profligacy, calumniating you;"  (5)  who shall be rendering an account to Him Who is holding Himself in readiness to judge the living and the dead.  (6)  For for this an evangel is brought to the dead also, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, yet should be living according to God, in spirit."

"The dead" that the evangel was brought to were the same ones in Jesus' day when Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead." They were not literally dead but they were the ones dead to God . . . the ones not following Christ.

Those dead [to God] the evangel went to were to be judged (set straight) as to their lifestyles as revealed in verses 3 & 4 above. If they were alive [to God] they would not have been involved in those bad things. So the evangel went to them "so that they should be living to God, in spirit."

So, did Christ go to dead people while He was dead? No.


Makes no sense, I agree, if viewed with our 'natural' eyes. This is spiritual as are all of Gods words.

I think the spirit of the message is that the divine in us suffers by living in this flesh. 'He' suffers to the point of dying yet only really dying to the flesh and thus vivified in spirit.

The spirits in jail seem to me to be that which is within me that is of God yet bound by carnal strongholds.

I see the baptism that is saving us as a spiritual happening and it is interesting that Noahs story REPRESENTS this spiritual happening. The whole story of Noah is occurring within me right now IMO.

Jesus Christ preaching to the dead is the Light chasing away all darkness within my essence.

WW, Jesus was in good spiritual form while doing this for that is what He is!

cp







For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline claypot

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2009, 09:21:13 PM »
Quote
He heralds to those [spirits] once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water

'brought safely through the water' [in the ark.  What does the water signify in this verse, such that they would need to be inside the ark to make it safely through?  Does this have a symbolic meaning?

Adversity, carnality maybe?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2009, 09:45:02 PM »
Quote
He heralds to those [spirits] once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water

'brought safely through the water' [in the ark.  What does the water signify in this verse, such that they would need to be inside the ark to make it safely through?  Does this have a symbolic meaning?
?
The sea Below and the sea above,? :icon_flower:

 the flood Psa 18:4, Psa 17:13 , The dead sea where all FLESH remain until Lifted by His Spirit , Noah and the ark symbolize THIS REST= HIM , saving 8 - (new begginings) souls..guided safely through the waters of DEATH.



« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 09:57:22 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2009, 09:55:27 PM »
Those who are dead and in prison are those still in there gaves, figuratively speaking, being DEAD to him, jail is likened to Bondage, which again refers to the flesh\Old C.old man ...Tis through the symbolising of Baptism, Dying to the flesh ,we are saved\being saved in HIM, again through Noah as a type who preached the Coming of the Flood , if they remained then they would PERISH, through faith 8 souls were saved in HIM ,again symbolising Both Old and new Cs..

ALL TYPES SHADOWS AND PATTERS.. :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 10:03:34 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2009, 10:03:12 PM »
Quote from: Taffy
..guided safely through the waters of DEATH.

Yes but doesn't water denote spirit?  Is death a spirit, then?  Christ carries us safely through evil spirits which are all around us [drowning us in the water of death]?

Offline Taffy

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2009, 10:10:02 PM »
Quote from: Taffy
..guided safely through the waters of DEATH.

Yes but doesn't water denote spirit?  Is death a spirit, then?  Christ carries us safely through evil spirits which are all around us [drowning us in the water of death]?

ill rephrase this Molly

 Terms normally have Both Negative and positive meanings, I see floods in this case  to mean a Place of the wicked= ungodly men [Wicked  meaning Those of the flesh, those who remain in the old C)

 equally so..Spiirits are either one of two..we are of HIM or we are of the flesh , ie Test the the spirits :icon_flower:,, a spirit of Death if you will or a spirit of LIFE

« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 10:16:14 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2009, 10:13:44 PM »
Humans are never called "spirits."

Humans are either called "humans" or "souls."

Christ never preached while He was dead. It is only after He was vivified or made alive that He heralds (not preaches) to the **spirits** (not humans).

My topic is not about baptism. It is about those spirits that were stubborn WHILE or WHEN God patiently waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed.

Christ would have been wasting His breath if He heralded to dead people. He heralded to spirits. Don't make it hard.

Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2009, 10:46:42 PM »
Humans are never called "spirits."

Humans are either called "humans" or "souls."

Christ never preached while He was dead. It is only after He was vivified or made alive that He heralds (not preaches) to the **spirits** (not humans).

My topic is not about baptism. It is about those spirits that were stubborn WHILE or WHEN God patiently waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed.

Christ would have been wasting His breath if He heralded to dead people. He heralded to spirits. Don't make it hard.



Hi T man  :icon_flower:
I thought I wasin agreeance with you T over the figurative DEAD and to the latter  :dontknow:

Noah was a Type Tony, through Him he preached


Psalms 142:6 Attend unto my cry; for I am brought very low: deliver me from my persecutors; for they are stronger than I.

Psalms 142:7 Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.

Ecc 4:13 Better is a poor and a wise child than an old and foolish king, who will no more be admonished.

Ecc 4:14 For out of prison he cometh to reign; whereas also he that is born in his kingdom becometh poor.

Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Isaiah 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

the Ark Took 120 Yrs to  prepare   the same time  He preached to the wicked  ,120 yrs is figurative of the End of the Flesh , as is  the end of Moses Life which also is Figurative of the End of the Old C...as when God declares his spirit will no longer  with MAN.,,e ...

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.



 :icon_flower:

Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels [messengers] that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Pet 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

2 Pet 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those [flesh and blood humans] that after should live ungodly;
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 11:20:10 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2009, 11:34:11 PM »
Quote from: Taffy
..guided safely through the waters of DEATH.

Yes but doesn't water denote spirit?  Is death a spirit, then?  Christ carries us safely through evil spirits which are all around us [drowning us in the water of death]?

If You see the waters as the waters of the Deep Molly a Type ,  place of The wicked , where the dead Live  The Ministration of Death ,then Yes its the Death of a Spirit ,

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years


What dies is The Spirit of the WICKED, carnal Man.... But Through Death Comes the Spirit of Life...i can see two fold meaning..as Fire Cleanses the Flesh then also does the spirit [ water] of life, but both quench the Flesh
 :icon_flower:



Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2009, 05:54:21 AM »
The Spirit within restores, bringing the order of things to it's original state; leading us beside quite waters, and guiding us in the paths of righteousness. Even though, we have walked in the valley of the shadow of Death from the leading of the Soul.

Whatever you truly believe at the conscious and subconscious levels of the mind (within the soul), manifests itself; good or evil.  But where no conflict exists with the SPIRIT; there is life.

Do we not have a Spirit, body and soul?

And, does not the SPIRIT, testify with our Spirit?

peacemaker

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2009, 06:55:00 AM »
Psa 88:10  Will You perform wonders for the dead? Will the departed spirits rise and praise You?

Num 16:22  But they fell on their faces and said, "O God, God of the spirits of all flesh, when one man sins, will You be angry with the entire congregation?"

Isa 14:9  "Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.

Isa 26:14  The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise; Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.

Isa 26:19  Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
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Offline reFORMer

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2009, 08:04:46 AM »
Humans are never called "spirits."

Humans are either called "humans" or "souls."
Hebrews 12:23 (CLT)...
22 But you have come to mount Zion, and the city of the living God, celestial Jerusalem, and to ten thousand messengers,
23 to a universal convocation, and to the ecclesia of the firstborn, registered in the heavens, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the just perfected,
24 and to Jesus, the Mediator of a fresh covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling which is speaking better than Abel.

This phrase speaks of humans from the perspective of their being spirits:  "...to the spirits of the just perfected..."  Young's Literal has:  "...to spirits of righteous men made perfect..."

Christ never preached while He was dead. It is only after He was vivified or made alive that He heralds (not preaches) to the **spirits** (not humans).

Preaching and heralding are very close.  Look up the occurrences of kerusso, kerux, kerugma.  Consider that the keyword Knoch gave to it was PROCLAIM and that Knoch's definition is:  "Make known publicly with authority beforehand."  Many theologians have compared kerugma and didache as preaching/teaching.  To a certain extent it seems such distinctions approach straining at gnats.

My topic is not about baptism. It is about those spirits that were stubborn WHILE or WHEN God patiently waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed.

Christ would have been wasting His breath if He heralded to dead people. He heralded to spirits. Don't make it hard.
I am not convinced.  The whole context is the people that perished in the Great Deluge.  People are spirits in bodies.  The Rephaim that Isaiah (26:14) seems to indicate have no resurrection, are these the spirits to whom you think he was "announcing" as His Father commissions Him?  These were possibly hybrids "of renown" born of "sons of God" and the "daughters of men."  Are these the origin of the "myths" concerning what they considered "the gods" handed down to ancient peoples?  Many people think not.  I think maybe.  Were the sons of God those born of androgynous Adam before separation into male and female? or, were they of another creation, angels?

If, as you say, "Christ would have been wasting His breath if He heralded to dead people," then, "For for this Christ died and lives, that He should be Lord of the dead as well as of the living" (Rm 14:9, CLT) makes Christ to be wasting His death.  As far as "The dead know nothing," (Ec 9) there is no reason to be speaking of anything more than a corpse.  You can even kick one and it wont kick back.  They know nothing.  It is clear that from James (2:26, CLT) "For even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead."

I've previously brought out the fact (without rebuttal) that the apostle Paul teaches that the spirit apart from the body can experience things:
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (CLT)...
2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware -- God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven.
3 And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware -- God is aware)
4 that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak.

Here's another example of dead people, obviously not in the body, experiencing things with the aspect of the soul that is connected to the spirit:
Revelation, "Unveiling" 6:9-11 (CLT)...
9 And when It opens the fifth seal, I perceived underneath the altar the souls of those who have been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had.
10 And they cry with a loud voice, saying, "Till when, O Owner, holy and true, art Thou not judging and avenging our blood on those dwelling on the earth?"
11 And to each of them was given a white robe, and it was declared to them that they should be resting still a little time, till their number should be completed by their fellow slaves also, and their brethren, who are about to be killed even as they were.

If you look up the things said of "spirit" in Scripture, I think you'll agree there's nothing that is not attributed to spirit that pertains to the whole of a man but that which is "carnal."  Consider this statement about not apprehending through a living body, but describing the spirit with soulical attributes:
1 Corinthians 2:9-10 (CLT)...
9 But, according as it is written, That which the eye did not perceive, and the ear did not hear, and to which the heart of man did not ascend -- whatever God makes ready for those who are loving Him.
10 Yet to us God reveals them through His spirit, for the spirit is searching all, even the depths of God.
11 For is any of humanity acquainted with that which is human except the spirit of humanity which is in it? Thus also, that which is of God no one knows, except the spirit of God.

(A very good book, my copy misplaced for the moment, is The Spiritual Man by Watchman Nee.  It gives lists of Scripture passages concerning the spirit, soul and body of man, among other things.)

For many people, whatever variety of beliefs make up their personal "Christian" doctrine, the central change needed to believe in the salvation of all is that death does not determine destiny.  God continues to work with people beyond death and on into resurrection, even those of the resurrection at the end, He continues molding and disciplining them to come into His image and likeness.  With jubilation I know, no matter who it is you consider (and I've said it to many people,) "However long it takes, if it takes a million years, God will correct and perfect you in His salvation."

I don't like this controversy very much not only because I'm not absolutely certain, though I am on one side of it, but I don't see it as being so much of some kind of qualification, though I suppose it might be.  At least to me it makes little difference what you believe, though I could be wrong.  I know I respect and love those of another opinion.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 08:23:03 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2009, 06:17:36 PM »
I agree with you entirely in your post about this controversy reformer.

I would also add that in the original letter there were no chapters and verses. 1 Peter 4:6 and 1Pet 3:20 are only 8 verses apart and altho it is possible to assert that Peter was talking about two separate groups, I find it doubtful. I believe the statement in the 4th chapter should be read in context with the 3rd, but as you stated.... its open to discussion.
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Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2009, 08:24:39 PM »
Humans are never called "spirits."

Humans are either called "humans" or "souls."
Hebrews 12:23 (CLT)...
22 But you have come to mount Zion, and the city of the living God, celestial Jerusalem, and to ten thousand messengers,
23 to a universal convocation, and to the ecclesia of the firstborn, registered in the heavens, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the just perfected,
24 and to Jesus, the Mediator of a fresh covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling which is speaking better than Abel.

This phrase speaks of humans from the perspective of their being spirits:  "...to the spirits of the just perfected..."  Young's Literal has:  "...to spirits of righteous men made perfect..."

Tony's reply:
No, it does not say humans are spirits. It speaks of "***spirits OF*** the just."
We all have a spirit, an intangible, invisible power within us.

The spirits of humans were not in a jail since the time of Noah.

Christ never preached while He was dead. It is only after He was vivified or made alive that He heralds (not preaches) to the **spirits** (not humans).

Quote
Preaching and heralding are very close.  Look up the occurrences of kerusso, kerux, kerugma.  Consider that the keyword Knoch gave to it was PROCLAIM and that Knoch's definition is:  "Make known publicly with authority beforehand."  Many theologians have compared kerugma and didache as preaching/teaching.  To a certain extent it seems such distinctions approach straining at gnats.

No, they are not even close.
Keruso is not even like euangelizonto. Euangelizonto is "evangelize" and keruso is proclaim.

Here is what Knoch wrote in the Concordant Commentary on this passage:

"18 A grasp of the apostle's argument here will help us through this difficult passage. The subject is suffering for doing good. The Example is Christ and those sufferings which came to Him as they come to His disciples, because of the sin which surrounded Him. The argument is that He, though put to death, has now been exalted, even over the messengers and authorities and powers of the spirit realm (22), therefore those who suffer for doing good will also be exalted in due time.
     With this in mind, it is evident that it is not the evangel which is proclaimed to the spirits in prison, for that would be entirely out of line with
the argument. It would imply that, as a result of their sufferings, their enemies will be evangelized. Such grace is foreign to Peter's epistles. The word here used is not evangelize, but herald or proclaim. It tells us, not that they were blessed, but that He was exalted. And what is more likely than that, after His ascension, He should be proclaimed the universal Suzerain to all creation, obedient or rebellious?

19 Who are these imprisoned spirits ? Are they not the same that Peter mentions in his second epistle (2:4) who were thrust down to the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, and the messengers of Jude's epistle (6) , who kept not their own sovereignty and left their own habitation?
     The fact that they are called spirits, assures us that they are not human. The proclamation was not made to them during our Lord's death, but after He had been made alive. It was a token of His exaltation. In due time all will be subjected to Him, not only Israel on the earth in the kingdom, and all the rest of humanity in the resurrection, but all sovereignty and authority and power in the spirit realm, so that, at the consummation God may become All in all."

My topic is not about baptism. It is about those spirits that were stubborn WHILE or WHEN God patiently waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed.

Christ would have been wasting His breath if He heralded to dead people. He heralded to spirits. Don't make it hard.

Quote
I am not convinced.  The whole context is the people that perished in the Great Deluge.  People are spirits in bodies.  The Rephaim that Isaiah (26:14) seems to indicate have no resurrection, are these the spirits to whom you think he was "announcing" as His Father commissions Him?  These were possibly hybrids "of renown" born of "sons of God" and the "daughters of men."  Are these the origin of the "myths" concerning what they considered "the gods" handed down to ancient peoples?  Many people think not.  I think maybe.  Were the sons of God those born of androgynous Adam before separation into male and female? or, were they of another creation, angels?

Tony's reply:
Isa 26:14 The dead shall fail to live, and Rephaim [healers] will fail to rise. Therefore You will call to account, and You shall exterminate them.

The point is that God will not raise healers for the curses of the law that were to come upon those law breakers.
If you are saying the Rephaim will never be resurrected then all the humans who died will fail to ever live again. Therefore God is not the saviour of all mankind if you are correct.

Quote
If, as you say, "Christ would have been wasting His breath if He heralded to dead people," then, "For for this Christ died and lives, that He should be Lord of the dead as well as of the living" (Rm 14:9, CLT) makes Christ to be wasting His death.  As far as "The dead know nothing," (Ec 9) there is no reason to be speaking of anything more than a corpse.  You can even kick one and it wont kick back.  They know nothing.  It is clear that from James (2:26, CLT) "For even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead."

Tony's reply: Your quote above that God is not the God of the dead but of the living is Christ's reply to the Sadducees over if there is a resurrection or not.
Mat 22:23 In that day there came to Him Sadducees, who are saying there is no resurrection. And they inquire of Him,
Jesus proves there has to be a resurrection out of the tombs for God to be the God of the living.

Matthew 22:31-32 CLV  Now concerning the resurrection of the dead, did you not read that which is declared to you by God, saying,  (32)  I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Thus showing the necessity for resurrection. Also, the only time we meet Christ is when, as a complete group, all the dead in Christ come out of their literal graves and they literally meet all the living believers *at the same time* and then meet the Lord in the air.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 10:54:51 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Seth

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2009, 09:04:50 PM »


So what does this mean:

1 Peter 3:18-22 CLV  seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,  (19)  in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,  (20)  He heralds to those [spirits] once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water,  (21)  the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,  (22)  Who is at God's right hand, being gone into heaven, messengers and authorities and powers being subjected to Him."

1. Notice, it does not say He went to dead humans and preached to them.
2. Notice, it does not say He preached to anyone but "heralds".
3. Notice, the heralding was not to humans but to spirits.
4. Notice, He did not do this WHILE dead but after He was vivified (brought back to life).

What it looks like to me is this:

The same spirit that rose him from the dead is the one by which he had preached to the spirits in prison years before he was lowered into the flesh, who were stubborn in the days of Noah. In other words, it may not be talking about something Jesus did AFTER he was resurrected, but before he was even lowered into the flesh and born of a virgin, being something that occured back in the days of Noah when the ark was being constructed. Those same spirits in jail (being that they were slaves to sin) did not listen so only 8 people were saved which is the symbol of Spiritual baptism (the destroyed people were buried under water being a symbol of the sinful man which is killed by the water of the Spirit thereby creating a new-born man).

In any case, I agree with you Tony. The typical interpretation has Christ being alive (huh?) for three days and preaching to people in hell. However, Christ was dead. And if Christ was alive, preaching to people in the grave that would be useless: the dead know nothing.








« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 09:24:58 PM by Seth »

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2009, 10:44:22 PM »


My topic is not about baptism. It is about those spirits that were stubborn WHILE or WHEN God patiently waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed.

Christ would have been wasting His breath if He heralded to dead people. He heralded to spirits. Don't make it hard.

Quote
I am not convinced.  The whole context is the people that perished in the Great Deluge.  People are spirits in bodies.  The Rephaim that Isaiah (26:14) seems to indicate have no resurrection, are these the spirits to whom you think he was "announcing" as His Father commissions Him?  These were possibly hybrids "of renown" born of "sons of God" and the "daughters of men."  Are these the origin of the "myths" concerning what they considered "the gods" handed down to ancient peoples?  Many people think not.  I think maybe.  Were the sons of God those born of androgynous Adam before separation into male and female? or, were they of another creation, angels?

Tony's reply:
Isa 26:14 The dead shall fail to live, and Rephaim [healers] will fail to rise. Therefore You will call to account, and You shall exterminate them.

The point is that God will not raise healers for the curses of the law that were to come upon those law breakers.
If you are saying the Rephaim will never be resurrected then all the humans who died will fail to ever live again. Therefore God is not the saviour of all mankind if you are correct.
I only offer speculation:  those who consider Raphaim to be the offspring of two species, only one of which is human, are saying they are a hybrid like the offspring of horses and asses are mules.  Mules are a hybrid and sterile creature to themselves, neither horse or mule.  So would be the offspring of daughters of men and sons of God.

I have so close to no motivation for this entire discussion.  I just feel weary when I confront it.  I know I have seen spirits and things that exist in that realm.  I once before  mentioned here catching up to someone who had one arm of transparent blue light.  When I spoke with him, he said it had just been cut off three days previous.  I've seen spirit things something like 10 foot Daddy-Long-Legs spiders.  They appear similar to what I've seen attached to people, pumping on them at the point of what was cancer.  I have been across the room from my body which was inhabited by the Holy Spirit and praying.  Immediately before that I experienced being drawn out of my body after hearing Cheyne-Stokes respiration from my body.  But, though I think so, I can't say absolutely I was dead.  After all, I'm here now.  I just don't see any reason, Biblical or otherwise to deny spirit apart from embodiment.  In fact, there are myriads of spirits and spirit things surrounding and passing through any human temple.  They are not embodied other than that spirit itself can be referred to as body, probably more in the sense of "substance."

Forgive me if I don't keep the argument going.  I don't have to prove something for the benefit of those of another opinion.  It is my experience they stay of the same opinion.  For this matter I don't care enough to take the time or make the effort.  Maybe I'll be of another mind someday.  Love y'all...

your brother, James
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2009, 11:20:10 PM »
 :cloud9: I've seen spirits of every description too James, including those that have died, and were brought into Christ, which is why "they" without us cannot be made perfect, all things THE Spirit wanted me to perceive and have understanding on, not things I in any way sought out.

Seek Him who IS Spirit and you begin to walk in the Spirit and whatever He elects to do in that regard. One is not exclusive of the other, but rather, inclusive. Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Seth

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2009, 11:29:27 PM »
Well, I agree that a lengthy discussion about all this is undesirable. Since I believe that experientially death is never experienced and therefore, experientially, resurrection is instantaneous, the conclusions are similar in that respect. However, I strongly believe that it is a Biblical truth that perfection is not achieved in our flesh, and that final perfection is achieved by laying to waste our mortality through literal death and literal resurrection.

Perfection/completion can be achieved while in the flesh in regard to the mind, while still maintaining the likemindedness Paul asked for: we still have hope of attaining the resurrection of the dead, and being made conformable to Christ in ALL ways, not only a changed mind, but through resurrection to immortality.

Until then, the patriarchs are both dead and buried (along with David) and will experience perfection together with us when the resurrection of the dead is attained. That's what I believe and I don't expect everyone to agree.



« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 11:33:13 PM by Seth »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2009, 11:58:26 PM »
I believe it is important to know if Christ was really dead while He was really dead or off playing checkers and having a ball, chillin out with disembodied humans (LOL) instead of His death and burial being a real sacrifice.

The truth is: "Christ alone hath immortality."

It is sheer Platonism to believe that humans, when they die, have some immortal soul and get to have another crack at salvation.

This just shows the degree to which the body of believers have been hoodwinked by philosophers, both modern and ancient rather than the Scriptures.

Rephaim the offspring of two species? Since when do spirits have sex organs to procreate? The angels are neither marrying nor given in marriage.

"Another important item furnished by the book of Deuteronomy is the existence of another powerful Nephilim branch—the Rephaim. Reviewing the events that had transpired on the Moabite border, Moses says: "The Emim dwelt therein aforetime, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakim: they (the Emim) are accounted Rephaim, as the Anakim; but the Moabites call them Emim" (Deut.2:10,11). Here we are told that the Rephaim were like the Anakim in two particulars: (1) might, number and stature, and (2) descent. Like the Anakim, they came of the Nephilim. Again, speaking of the land of Ammon, Moses says: "That also is accounted a land of Rephaim: the Rephaim dwelt there aforetime; but the Ammonites call them Zamzummim; a people great, many, and tall, as the Anakim" (Deut.2:20,21). The Rephaim branch of the Nephilim was called by various names by the different nations—Horim, Emim, Zamzummim. "

BTW, the nephilim (actually "distinguished ones" Concordant Version) were sons of Anak (a human). They were not the product of angels and humans.

Getting back to the spirits in prison, these are the same spirits held in the caverns of Tartarus.
The Bible says that when all people die their spirit returns to God who gave it. God is not in prison or caverns of Tartarus.

So do you want to hold on to your paganism or believe the Scriptures?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2009, 12:57:31 AM »
It is sheer Platonism to believe that humans, when they die, have some immortal soul and get to have another crack at salvation.


Hi Tony.  I see a lot of what you're saying. 

Given the above quote, what do you believe happens, what do you see as the process of every knee bowing and God becoming all in all? 

Thanks, James.

Offline Seth

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2009, 01:00:55 AM »
Tony I fully agree. Jesus was dead for three days and was resurrected FROM the dead on the third day.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2009, 04:06:25 AM »
It is sheer Platonism to believe that humans, when they die, have some immortal soul and get to have another crack at salvation.


Hi Tony.  I see a lot of what you're saying. 

Given the above quote, what do you believe happens, what do you see as the process of every knee bowing and God becoming all in all? 

Thanks, James.

The process whereby all mankind will have God All in them is the process of vivification . . . being given immortality and putting on incorruption (1 Cor.15:22-28 etc.).

The process begins with Christ obediently going to the cross for all mankind and putting all mankind to death in the death of Christ. Then all mankind will be vivified (given life beyond the reach of death). "Yet each in his own order: The firstfruit (order) Christ then those who are Christ's (order) thereafter the consummation (order). The last order (the consummation order) will be vivified after Christ quits reigning and all sovereignties, authorities and powers annulled and death abolished.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.